Author Topic: Brainstorming  (Read 2911 times)

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
That's all fine.  Hunting is supposed to be dangerous, not reliable, and well-versed hunters are supposed to be valuable, not the norm.

For someone who complains about the lack of need for warriors, you seem to be missing when warriors were just as common out the in the wild as rangers, because of the reasons you just specified: They fight better, and thus are less prone to the combat gank of big baddies.  Rangers only became 'OP' when we changed the behavior of the game world to promote less death.  Less death is bad.  More middling characters, rather than a bunch of maxxed out ones, is far more interesting of a game to exist in, not to mention that it's a problem that defeats itself.  You only need to be 'more skilled' because everyone else is, precisely because most characters in that pursuit are actually reaching it rather than it being unsafe.

I'd much rather there be real concern for how quickly you can die than a comfort zone, when it comes to outside the walls.  But incentives for actual hunting rather than viewing the game world as a skill trainer with leveled zones is always a plus for a better game dynamic regardless.

You're also playing a game which requires an online connection. If it blips and goes out and takes a few minutes to reset, you're helpless. The game code will not extract you from the universe if/when it detects you linkless.

...this is how it's always been and always will be, so I'm unsure what exactly you mean by that.  This is true in our current state as well.  Assuming we need to make the wilds safe enough to be linkdead in it isn't very conducive to anything.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2017, 02:33:19 PM »

It's how it is, how it always has been, in Armageddon.

It's not how it is on many of the other muds I've played. Even base Diku has extraction code for detection of linkless connections.

One could argue that adding this to the game would be abused more than not and that would explain its absence. Which would be a fair point. But the fact remains that it's a piece of code that most muds have and that we don't.

So making the game world harsher and making more random baddies placed around is simply going to cause a few more linkless deaths.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 02:44:28 PM »
Quote
So making the game world harsher and making more random baddies placed around is simply going to cause a few more linkless deaths.

This kind of statement is like saying converting the entire world to socialism is simply going to result in better healthcare.  It reduces all other facets of what the proposal is, which is a more necessary existence of risk.  Yes, there will be more deaths, and that is good, not bad.

Holding onto a grudge that you can die while linkdead is hardly a reason to prevent movements in the opposite direction of what we've been doing, which has been making death harder to run into at random, which is removing challenge and providing a means of steady risk-aversion until you feel like it.

Risk should be prevalent, particularly outside the city.  Those who avoid it should be somewhat tied into needing other people to do it.  It's an integral part of a Zalanthan platform, and makes for a far more interesting gameworld; the sooner people realize that character death is just as good for the game as character survival, the better.  Players can become more involved in the gameworld sooner when the majority of people already in it when their character is created are still middling rather than having spent 20 days of playtime carefully calculating progression to avoid death.

Avoiding death is the natural plan.  But the game needs to be built around providing kinks and challenges to that plan, or it's just another front for staleness.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9385
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2017, 01:04:33 PM »
Things can be challenging and risky without the presence of random instagibs.  Also, putting sentient aggro NPCs around 'nak leads to other problems with game design.  I'd be agreeable to say...moving those certain raptors closer to the city, maybe.  Gith and mantis...no.

I don't think I've ever made the argument that warriors are unnecessary.  In fact, I've been pretty clear that top-tier warriors can get away with straight ridiculous combat feats.  I don't think I've said that rangers are OP (except archery, maybe).  I've said their versatility makes them very attractive, to the point where it's difficult not to pick guild_ranger if you don't have the specific intent to become a combat god.  Rangers are good enough with PvE vs. dumb mobs that in -most- circumstances, there's little functional difference until you get to top-tier mobs with very high attack rolls.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2017, 02:49:22 PM »
Things can be challenging and risky without the presence of random instagibs.  Also, putting sentient aggro NPCs around 'nak leads to other problems with game design.  I'd be agreeable to say...moving those certain raptors closer to the city, maybe.  Gith and mantis...no.

I don't think I've ever made the argument that warriors are unnecessary.  In fact, I've been pretty clear that top-tier warriors can get away with straight ridiculous combat feats.  I don't think I've said that rangers are OP (except archery, maybe).  I've said their versatility makes them very attractive, to the point where it's difficult not to pick guild_ranger if you don't have the specific intent to become a combat god.  Rangers are good enough with PvE vs. dumb mobs that in -most- circumstances, there's little functional difference until you get to top-tier mobs with very high attack rolls.

That's fine.  I'm less about the specifics and more about getting rid of the 'safe zone' around cities, because I'm not observing a beneficial effect.  Moreso, it was about providing a linkage, albeit subtle (and not so subtle when there are no hunters), between those who never leave the city and those who do.

As far as warriors, maybe I misread one of your other recent posts.  It was in regard to military clans, when you said there was no place for warriors and people would just continue to pick rangers.  Having a more malicious environment that is harder for the less-combat-safe rangers than warriors means we could likely return to that balance:  Rangers have a harder time surviving in their early and middle stage, but warriors just don't hunt as well in late stage despite being more combat ready.  But you may disagree with that as well.

ANYWAY.  Was just a brainstorm on a way to have people able to have a more significant impact and create competition for a commonly-found resource (foodstuffs) in our state of fewer in-game clans.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2017, 03:51:45 PM »
I think where Warriors tend to shine is in their "Combat is Life" regimen, but unfortunately MOST of the game's content is not vs Humanoid. Assassinations might be against people, but they are so rarely something done open by a warrior than a legitimate backstabbing assassin that the point is moot.

I think the game needs more humanoid (not always gith) encounters. While I'm aware these HAVE happened before, it seems that any attempt at vs Humanoid interaction is in the form of enslaving tribes, or maybe fighting gith and desert elves. There is no War, there are no camps to try and take. There's no reason for someone to hire 4 warriors over 4 rangers, because the thing that makes Warriors a better fit (quicker parry, advanced weapon skills) almost never end up part of the equation, whereas a climbing sneaky ranger with just as much combat skill as the warrior, plus bandage and brew, is just better.

Part of the idea of "splitting" the city might make for more vs. Humanoid interactions. Fight clans that pop up in the Labyrinth, get tasked by the Templars to root out a thief's den, assault a barracks of soldiers. These things COULD happen, but they require building, linking, staff to run them, and players to throw at them who feel it was worth the effort. Why can't thief dens be the in-city spider holes?
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2017, 05:29:01 PM »
Quote
I think the game needs more humanoid (not always gith) encounters.

Agreed, which is where most of my ideas come around.  Things for PvPers to do, things for people who like fighting things to do, camps to pillage for 'loot', etc etc.

We have made a lot of content to observe, with clan and city removals, the content for 'battles' has gone down a great deal.

She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2017, 05:45:47 PM »
I don't even think there needs to be radiant loot quests, so much as just ... you know. Things that pop up with semi-regularity that eventually cause trouble. Spider dens are always a constant threat because EVENTUALLY, the spiders crawl east to the city and cause issues. No other "threat" exists like that, and certainly not within the city. Even if there was just random spawn locations for a thieves guild that, if left unattended, would spawn npc pickpockets or added beggars on the street. Just another thing for non-beast mobiles to cause trouble and need to be taken care of.

Anything Humanoid that causes problems for people is good, but I feel like the overwhelming consensus is that if a humanoid is causing trouble, it must come to PvP. Why not script a bandit tribe that behaves similar to the DesertSim creatures?
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shadeoux

  • Posts: 970
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2017, 06:13:26 PM »
My take on this.

I submitted a request to see if it would be possible for a new/different or returning culture to pop up/reestablish
themselves. I also offered to write up docs, items, rooms and anything else that would be needed to get something
going. I want to make this work, so I chose to be the change, you hear it all the time, but how many actually try?
Well it is my turn, wish me luck! I don't want to see this game I hold dear spiral into nothing after everyone investing
so much time playing and contributing over the last few decades.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2017, 06:15:50 PM »
I don't even think there needs to be radiant loot quests, so much as just ... you know. Things that pop up with semi-regularity that eventually cause trouble. Spider dens are always a constant threat because EVENTUALLY, the spiders crawl east to the city and cause issues. No other "threat" exists like that, and certainly not within the city. Even if there was just random spawn locations for a thieves guild that, if left unattended, would spawn npc pickpockets or added beggars on the street. Just another thing for non-beast mobiles to cause trouble and need to be taken care of.

Anything Humanoid that causes problems for people is good, but I feel like the overwhelming consensus is that if a humanoid is causing trouble, it must come to PvP. Why not script a bandit tribe that behaves similar to the DesertSim creatures?

See my first post in thread.  I wanted that idea expanded on as a nice big content generator, and applicable across lots of different areas.  Bandit camps were the example, but other such ideas would be akin to an 'oppression meter' that sparks 'rinth vs soldier NPC activity.  That's with or without players.  Left unattended, it can result in soldiers deeper in the labyrinth, and thugs deeper in the city.  Would give PC militia things to do, and actual 'violence' for 'rinthers to engage in.  Have the oppression meter affected by actions in that conflict.

Those are my idea of content generation.  Things that, left unattended, become a serious issue, thus providing a constant 'thing that has to be worked on/reason to log in'.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

nauta

  • Posts: 2187
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2017, 06:23:27 PM »
My thoughts:

1) I agree with Synthesis that the bahamet/mekillot insta-kill really makes hunting in those places less 'fun' in the sense that going into those zones is really just a roll the dice thing, rather than a strategy thing.  You will eventually roll the wrong number no matter how buff.

2) The three most fun ecosystems in the game, IMHO, are the Grey Forest, the southern Tablelands, and the Mantis Valley.  The mobs aren't insta-kill but are hard and keep you on your toes; they have scripted patterns which allow for strategery; and there's a lot of twists and turns to the landscape itself, so you can do different things.  (There are other little pockets out there that are like those zones too, but, I swear, I could live in the Grey Forest forever if I didn't have to interact with 'people'.)

No zone is really perfect, though.  It sort of requires a perfect storm of scripted hard (but not insta-kill) mobs and geographical diversity that make those places so much fun to solo in.

I'd imagine tinkering with these ecosystems is a lot of fun for staff too.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1152
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2017, 06:24:26 PM »
I know I've posted this before but I never mind repeating it:

1. The virtual power ceiling in Allanak need to be slapped down hard.
2. Things need to happen, outside of Allanak, that its nobility and Templar give a shit about but they cannot easily influence, get information about or control.
3. The ruling class needs to be given a proper reason to care about the millions of unwashed masses.

The interactions between templars/nobles and commoners feels really forced. There is absolutely no reason for them to care about commoners.  The last time I played a merchant, there was nothing I could offer nobility that made them interested in interacting with my characters, information on gith war, resources (gems/wood/heck metal),  heck a person on the outside to go to places they couldn't. Nope. Nothing. No interest what's so ever, and why would there be when they have absolutely everything.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:29:53 PM by Dresan »
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2017, 06:36:50 PM »
Dresan:

That was why I was a little more irritated by the emphasis on the tablelands, because we essentially shut down an enemy state in order to put more into an isolated one where the in-tablelands dynamic was there...but it left almost no relationship with what was happening there and the rest of the world.

Again, in my original example, adding content to the game and then having each noble have stipends and house standing tied to how well they're performing in those pieces of content was my fix for it.  Do you have any other examples/ideas that give a different approach to the same problem (I only ask because we're both acknowledging that said thing exists)?
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

shadeoux

  • Posts: 970
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2017, 06:42:46 PM »
I know I've posted this before but I never mind repeating it:

1. The virtual power ceiling in Allanak need to be slapped down hard.
2. Things need to happen, outside of Allanak, that its nobility and Templar give a shit about but they cannot easily influence, get information about or control.
3. The ruling class needs to be given a proper reason to care about the millions of unwashed masses.

The interactions between templars/nobles and commoners feels really forced. There is absolutely no reason for them to care about commoners.  The last time I played a merchant, there was nothing I could offer nobility that made them interested in interacting with my characters, information on gith war, resources (gems/wood/heck metal),  heck a person on the outside to go to places they couldn't. Nope. Nothing. No interest what's so ever, and why would there be when they have absolutely everything.

I know this is something that they are trying to changed, but again it still feels so forced. Like the noble/templar are completely bored and just come to see if they can get some entertainment, far from impact or meaningful.  The nobility of tuluk once incited the public to riot against the templars, and won quite a bit of power. They also had goals out the box to build that influence with the public, through partisanship and public work.  Allanak nobility could become virtual and I'm not sure I would even really notice.

In short, Allanak's culture worked well with Tuluk, but without it some aspects of its culture/virtual power may need to change to keep the game from feeling stagnant.

With the Highlord being able to transform into a dragon, presumably at will, the only thing that can stand up to him, he has destroyed,
trapped, or removed in some fashion. I don't see this ceiling lessening by any accounts short of godly intervention. A -volcano- was
moved away ffs.
I would love to see Nak crack, and the templars and nobles scatter for supremacy amid the collapsing ecosystem that it is. But once
again, Tek I think has been built up so high, he's damned near godlike in power. Nothing, save Sand Man (possibly), Muk, or a couple
of other lesser known entities can stand up to Tek, and even then, Muk would be the only one not to falter with in the first seconds imho.
Can we get a meteor strike straight into Teks Tower, killing the Highlord, devastating the city and surrounding lands, or have the true
giants use the city as a bubblebath.

Sorry rambling.
Two dwarves get into a small fist-fray over who owns a pile of dung at the roadside.

You think:
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1152
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
Armaddict, I like your idea.

But I do think we just need re-evaluate where their value lies within the city and how that value is tied with the unwashed masses. In many cases I have no idea what their purpose or role is within a city, and that should be made bad or detrimental to them.  They really need to have more value other than, because the highlord said so and they are rich. I don't think this means that their roles need to be dividing in the same way as Tuluk nobility, but what they contribute should be more clearly defined. The contributions a noble house gives to the city is what allows it to be first, second or third tier nobility, which brings more prestige, power and influence. 

In order to achieve things, they can't just depend on the byn (the only force they may be able to hire). It will also greatly help them to find resources, they cannot just depend on family slaves, militia, or GMH forces. Talented Commoners should be resources which can be acquired, stolen or killed. These resources can be acquired through favors which can save limted budget money. Example: Noble needs to do X with byn, but cost is high, their monthly budget is low. The only reason they can afford it is because they have invested in a commoner run business which is doing well.

There is a lot of things that can be done here, but frankly the culture and message is that nobles are filthy rich, need nothing, and don't need to achieve anything. They can go to Reds, sit down, smoke spice, and never have to worry about a thing.
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Cind

  • Posts: 1276
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2017, 11:19:51 PM »
I idea'd the idea of a bookstore, for nobles and House merchants who know cavilish (like, I dunno, a book for learning cavilish and a book of House rules and regulations.)

I dunno how much that would add to the game, though. I'm guessing Templars and nobles would get a kick out of it, and give nobles something to do when people aren't around.
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Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »
There are/were libraries, and a number of books that talk about things that have happened in game. Most of them written by players of old.

I had a Tuluki Templar who would occasionally read passages out of a book written during the Copper War but that was the last time I was ever in a Read/Write situation.
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