Author Topic: Brainstorming  (Read 2431 times)

Evilone

  • Posts: 500
Brainstorming
« on: April 18, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
Hey everyone. I've just been going over crazy ideas and suggestions that I feel might add to the mud. I remember when (Nyr I think it was) started a thread sorta similar like this about two years ago. A lot of ideas got bounced around, and it was actually a really good step I saw Armageddon staff take with the direction of the game, and I did see some of the ideas players proposed introduced some time later. Add your own ideas. Please try and keep it positive.

I'm going to start with the idea I kinda like the most. How to make House Tor a viable player clan once again. Ath had been asking about military clans a while back, and maybe reopening Tor. If I was to open Tor I'd make them essentially a small, semi-professional army, the Tor Legion, or just keep calling them the Tor Scorpions. Introduce an enemy, old or new, that actually -challenges- Allanak. Establish front lines, a border, give them a fort to live in, and the Tor Legion is the shield against this new enemy. They are only small in number, so obviously there will be holes the enemy can slip through and attack deeper into the Vrun. There's ten total villages I believe, 7 virtual. Make a few more of them less virtual, and more villages can be raided, defended, and so on, so the soldiers don't feel like they are just protecting sand. I'd use Tuluk again as the enemy, since the area all the way to Tuluk is actually built, but gith also make a really good enemy, even though people might be sick to death of them, because even with the mindless slaughter of NPCs, staff don't have to worry about players getting ultra loot all the time, cause it'll be stinky gith crap. Use scripts to have random times for these gith to push into the Vrun, so player patrols can randomly come across them, and won't need staff to animate. Having enemies to kill when staff aren't animating is important for off peak players too. Still keep a 2 noble cap. One a high ranking officer in the Tor legion, the other running the academy in Allanak. Have them rotate to do a tour every now and then to keep things interesting. Any criminals in Allanak that may face death in the pit or the arena that is not charged with treason or magick, may chose to join the Tor legion instead as a slave soldier. They get a slave mark and assigned a unit. If they somehow escape the fort, or flee from the unit in combat, they become wanted. No big deal. Keep it all IG. If only there was a clan that went after captured slaves? Bring back the Borsail Wyverns!

The Wyverns. If the current PC Borsail nobles want to recruit and run the Wyverns, let them. Make it all up to the PC's to recruit though. I'd rather the clan was open and there was an option, than just being denied and shut down if its having a low period of activity. Give it a cap of 5 PC's. All Wyverns could get access to work with the gladiator trainers, and train with the gladiators themselves as well, during times when there are no slaves to hunt down and capture, or any highborn to protect. Give some coded starting benefit to play a escaped slave. Have a extended subguild Escaped Gladiator Slave. Starts with slightly better bumps to combat skills, but must get slave tattoo, or even give them one advanced combat skill from the start. Downside, your name and basic description go on a Borsail board.

Noble Houses. Sometimes noble characters can live for ages, and other times they can make a big impact in a short time. I think thats good for the game either way. Nobody notices Amos the grebber go missing. Lots of people notice Amos the noble go missing, even if they are a junior noble. If nobles are dead, replace them as soon as possible, that is within an adequate time frame that doesn't spoil how they ended up dissapearing if it's not so public. The less nobles we have, hurts the game I feel. For one, there's less bigger events, as nobles have the power and capital to push such things, where normal PC's don't, nor really have a desire to. Two, there's more cause for other nobles to get bored, and lose interest, because they have no one at their level they can interact with. MCB. Screw MCB. I like CB more, and less death. Killing your enemy is so boring, but everyone has their own way of doing things. It's okay to lose sometimes. Learn from it and become stronger. You might hate your enemy when they are around, but they actually give your noble something to go against, because when they are gone, you have the downtime of having to get them replaced, which can be a while in between other role calls and such.

Oash Elites/Special OPs. I was going to say no to bringing them back since Oash does have their magickers, but screw that. Bring them back too. Maybe cap them to 3 or something though, just to keep a bit of a balance between the noble houses and the IG forces they have. Open the option at least, like I've been saying.

Open Role Calls. Make the roles such as Amber Wyverns, Oash Elites, etc. open roles, that players can app anytime as long as there is an opening? Keep the info updated on a new section on the GDB called Roles Available or something, or on the actual webpage a basic staff rolecall stating everything you'd need to include when you applied. Most of us who play lots know when a Sergeant is killed, and that there might not be anyone suitable to replace them IG. If players who want that role could just apply and get in much quicker than waiting for calls from staff, it might make for less stagnation IG. Not just replacing Sergeant roles either. Let them app in as Private rank equivalents.

Rinth. I do like the suggestions of making it bigger. I didn't find it very difficult to explore and learn actually. I didn't really find anything extremely exciting either during my time there, though I'll admit it wasn't very long, and I didn't get to develop a strong enough character to move around as I pleased without worry. I'm guessing, but I can imagine there are only 2 safe houses for the Guild? Don't answer. If there's more, great, but playing a PC Guild leader on another mud, I remember working my way from the bottom, and slowly gaining exciting new places to hang out and access. There was a recruit safe house, a senior safe house, a sewer safe house, and even a safe house in a little village out east. What does that even matter? It was rewarding to me and kept me wanting to rise in rank. You'd gain better access to gear in different places, picks, poisons, so on. I'd really like to see more merchants about the rinth, and actually give players a reason to go shopping there, instead of just selling random bits of crap no one actually buys. Loading different gear, items from Tuluki clans that can't be gotten anymore, being stolen up north and fenced in the south, only available to rinth players might be nice. I'd move the Screaming Mantis to sit in a more central position, and have it at the end of the path directly entering the rinth. Make it a completely neutral zone, with no fighting at all, enforced by tough m'f'ers. Run something like the Continental in John Wick. Add apartments to the top of it. Add a fighting pit. Add a still. Make it actually be able to be run by a PC who brews moonshine to sell? (I've always wanted a bar owner PC in ARM). Add a Akai Sjir trader that sells the clans picks and gear. Add a whorehouse. Add more creatures to the rinth. A dangerous spider nest that can't just be wiped out in five seconds, bigger and nastier rats to kill, and so on. All these places though should have loot randomly loaded in them infrequently, to represent the population being dragged to them and dying within them. Makes for dangerous, interesting exploring, if the PCs want to take the risk. Make an ultimate enemy that the Guild, and the Elves might even have to team up for on occasion to wipe out. Base them in the sewers and make them tough.

New Guilds. Do we want other role options available? We have the new upcoming Gladiator main guild. I'd like to see other guilds added that relate to roles in game as well, and set them at like 4-5 karma. 4-5 karma I feel is justified because I don't feel new players should just be able to spec app them from the beginning, as these roles should require some world knowledge and experience before stepping into them. Call the guilds: Torscorpion. Borsailwyvern. Oashelite. Bynveteran. Each would start with all skills at apprentice, and maybe three-five journeyman ranks. They would be lifesworn roles however, and would face IG punishment for rebelling. Apps would be rejected when clans were at their caps.

Staff Animations to IG Player Actions. Suggestion to players - Get over the whole idea of "Staff set out to kill me". Well maybe you shouldn't have gone around slaughtering every single NPC in the rinth like some psycho, and force a world reaction that the other people there felt the need to mob up and stop you, which just so happens that staff have to be the ones to enforce. Keep that in mind. I have a feeling a big reason staff don't animate as much as they'd like to, is because certain players just want to go about twinking without being bothered and told "No, you shouldn't be doing that." I enjoy NPC combat with staff far more than I will ever enjoy PVP. PVP is mostly just code and brief spam and death, whereas the fights with staff often come with time to react and plan, and you can be afraid or brave in such situations, as you have the time because generally staff want US to survive and come out on top. At least I hope they do!

Senate Meetings. I've read some old senate logs (I never actually witnessed one myself), and they make for a great read. I can see them involving lots of staff effort, but I wish these still happened. I really do. It'd be great if it could be done on a smaller scale. I'm not sure how exactly, but if it involved the junior nobles, their aides, I think it would be a nice event to have returned to Allanak.

Arena. Nothing really to be said except I'd like to see some mounted combat. Maybe archery as well. I'm liking the way things are developing there. Gladiator PCs. Yay.

It's Alive. More random NPCs in the game world outside of cities. I could ride all around the Vrun Draith, and unless I enter somewhere, there's not a single NPC humanoid to be found, unless animated by staff and moved. It's kind of funny cause when I actually really think about that it's true. I know we have a lot of great scripts. Having travelers just go from one place to another with minor loot and goods at different times could do wonders. It could create more interesting adventures for raiders, or even militia and soldiers, who feel the need to protect these travelers when they patrol if they find them. In so many cases, I'd rather abuse be dealt with, than there be no opportunity, and so give players the benefit of the doubt to mostly do the right thing.

Evil New Race - The Khon.
*Tall, muscular, and humanlike, with a lifespan double that of a average human. Their technological innovations are genetically engineered and made up from living organisms. Khon derive pleasure from pain, and strive to alter their physical capabilities through organ augmenting. The Khon have no ability to use psionics or the way, and while most non-psionic races were long since deceased, the Khon have been able to survive because they are also immune to psionics, having the ability to supress psionic powers in other sentient beings, and even disrupt elemental magicks. The Khon have been buried and locked away from the races of Zalanthas since the time of the first Dragon. Once evil servants of the Dragon, their civilization crumbled when the empire of the Dragon was destroyed, and it forced them deep underground into the Undercity of Subterranea. Almost two thousand years past, they have finally resurfaced, and have a thirst to crush all opposition and rule the Known World.

Lets introduce guys like these and see how Allanak and Tuluk fair against them. I'd put them breaking out in the Known from Subterranea in the Red Desert somewhere.

Anyway. I've had my fun. I was bored.
Death is only the beginning...

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 09:28:20 AM »
A lot of really cool ideas, Evilone. I am sure lots of people would be on-board with them.

The main problem I see, with most of them, is the current playerbase is too small to continue to stretch thinner with more houses, more races, more locations, etc.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 02:13:25 PM »
A lot of combat role ideas.

I'd like to know what percentage of the playerbase is actually playing a warrior, though.  My guess is that it's...not many, and it's already barely enough to cover the Byn and the AoD.  Rangers and assassins are just so much more versatile that it's hard not to keep playing them over and over again...but nobody wants to take their "combat clan" assassin or ranger into a 5v5 PvE situation where it's 5 NPC warriors vs. 2 PC warriors and 3 miscellaneous scrubs.
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BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8216
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2017, 02:34:21 PM »
There's a fair bit of warriors in Kurac too, don't forget. My personal experience with combat clans is that they're never more than 1/3rd warriors, with Rangers and Assassins filling out the rest. Assassins are particularly common in the AoD (which leads to super frustrating hilarious expeditions whenever a Templar tried to march us across the Red desert). The other clans tilt towards Rangers. Indies are a whole other story in regards to Warrior utility.

But that's all a digression. I'm skeptical of adding new clans, new rooms, new anything because without something to do with it all of it just becomes toys for the sake of toys. I think Armageddon needs a more robust, vibrant, and sustained metaplot in order to grab and keep player interest. North vs South War, political violence within the City, mass turbulence anywhere. Something to convince us that things are happening and that we might get swept up in events at any moment. This is particularly true outside of Allanak where you don't really have anything to look forward to but getting ganked by one spam-caster/sparrer/archer or another. In Zalanthas nothing changes then you die.

I hear there's kind of more interesting things going on in Allanak but they're not broadcasted very far (in-game or out) so it's easy for me to play other games under the impression that I'm not missing anything in Arm.

I have great gear, good skills and AHMAZIGN STATS but don't really feel like doing anything with any of it.
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Malken

  • Posts: 9000
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 03:05:17 PM »
I hear there's kind of more interesting things going on in Allanak but they're not broadcasted very far (in-game or out) so it's easy for me to play other games under the impression that I'm not missing anything in Arm.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 04:06:15 PM »
tl;dr
-------------
If you don't read the whole thing, you probably won't understand the summary at the bottom.  It's a long read, I know, but it's built mostly as a demonstration.


Please don't nitpick at the code ideas and such themselves.  While this is the presentation of an idea, it's more of a demonstration framework for creating content for the playerbase in a way that promotes player activity as a full on 'background' to interact with in way that promotes player-to-player interaction, conflict, and character-sensible motivation.  I understand this would be a ton of coding, but it's also a foundation for coding that is based on promotion of content versus features and roleplay congregations.  Simply put, creating events for people to gather at but with no real goal in mind can be fun, but under repetition, becomes non-stimulating.

I'm very code-oriented, because I think that the code-based nature of Armageddon is what separates it from an IRC roleplay chatroom, or a MUSH, neither of which are preferred roleplay experiences for many people who end up choosing Armageddon.  It isn't that one way is better than other, it's that by building based on ideas like this, you actually elevate the game for everyone as the effects climb up the ladder of those roleplaying within that coded atmosphere.


The First Example (This is massive, and Allanak-Centric)
-------------------------------
Step One:  Non-virtualize portions of the Economy.

The Clay Camp.  Obsidian Mines.  Farming Villages.  They all exist, but for all intents and purposes, don't really do much aside from function as a prop.  Change this.  Add counters to the game world that keeps track of in-game time.  Set a rate.  Set a delivery time.  This builds into Caravans, below.  You could make it so that an actual stockpile is being built, but I'm not sure if that would utterly bog down the system or not.  Anyway, point is, make this non-virtual; have them actually collecting resources.

Two:  Some new objects!

Caravan- On the delivery date set for each resource, spawn a wagon object.  Attach an escort to it (in the case of Allanaki resources, a small entourage of soldiers is likely).  Have it travel along a set route, with tested movement-rates that make sense for the cargo/average size of shipment.  Each should have it's own delivery 'room', where when it's reached, the 'amount' determined by the counter from the Resource Camp is added to the 'stockpile' of that area.  The items become virtual again.  The stockpile amount is tracked.

Raiding Camp- Randomly spawn. Make it populate with a -small- number of NPC's bearing the 'raider' flag.  One guard, one leader, one member.  Randomly select two raiding days.  Each raiding day, 1 leader takes the henchmen out on a randomly generated path of a certain number of rooms, then when it reaches the end, it generates the shortest path back to their camp location.  Any beasts they encounter, they fight and skin.  Any humanoids they encounter, they attack with similar effect as the 'rinth mugger code; not -meant- to be lethal, but accidents happen, and the intent is to strip them of items.  On return to the camp, items with a value of <300 (arbitrary amount) become virtually sold. Valuable items are stored (after value is added to the camp).  'Camp value', based on what they've 'earned', is tracked, and on milestones they gain new henchmen, new leaders, and new guards.  'Raiders' will attack other raiders if their campID is different, if possible.  Thus, they will grow depending on location and success.

Tribe/Family Camp- Randomly spawn.  Populate with 'forager' NPC's.  Three guards, three foragers, two hunter. Select hunting days.  Every day, foragers find a location within a certain radius to forage for a random resource type.  On hunting days, hunters go out and look for beasts to fight and skin.  Everything is brought back.  Items with value <40 (arbitrary number) become virtual and contribute their value to 'Camp Value'.  The rest are stored within the camp (after having their value contribute as well).  Every <amount of IC time>, a check is made against camp-value to see what milestone they are above.  Camp grows.  Ratio of guards is very low.

City Foragers- Random spawn, but at the gates.  Some go to salt.  Some go to look for obsidian mines.  Some hunt.  Some forage for stone.  Same idea, they return, they turn in their finds, but they contribute to the 'stockpile value' of the city.

Three:  Bring in the Clans!

Arm of the Dragon: Templar wages are impacted by the 'stockpile' value of the city, which is reset each pay period.  Thus, protecting the city's interests influences their pay, regardless of whether someone else is helping them facilitate a plot.  At any given point, they have things that they could be working on because they're already always happening.  A raiding camp has gotten big and started intercepting some caravans?  Protect the caravan, or go try to wipe out the camp.  That spider infestation is suddenly more important, when it's intercepting that obsidian shipment, which has the highest ratio of returns for the templars.  That other templar, though, has alternative incomes from his own intrigue, and so he's not so concerned with it, much to the frustration of that templar who hasn't fostered political connections.

House Borsail: Noble wages are impacted by the number of slaves returned to the city by Borsail Wyverns.  People clanned with Borsail gain a single command that allows them to 'chain up' those with the 'raider' and 'forager' flags.  They turn them in to increase Borsail's income on the next pay period.  This gives the House back its military side, and they once again have things to offer to the templarate as boons, as well as a personal PC force that innately has things to do as well as work on the noble's personal interests, i.e. "I want you guys to protect this person for me" or "If you can, I want this person eliminated.  If you can't do it, I'll contract the guild."  Nobles will innately have people that they want dead, because...

House Oash:
Insert the very small chance of a camp's new henchmen being a mage of a random type.   Insert new behavior in the camp based on if it has a mage and of what type, i.e. Rukkian means the raiding group goes out with buffs, Vivaduan types mean they gain more raiding days, krathi joins the raiding group, etc etc.  Have the Arm receive a bonus to income for executing rogues, have Oashi nobles have the bonus of income from gemming the rogue mages (they become virtual after this).

House Tor:
Much smaller bonuses, but much more consistent.  If Tor helps clear it, the one leading the raid gets prompted on whether or not Tor helped.  Tor might not know it, but if someone isn't getting Tor credit for their assistance, they will be displeased and become obstructionist rather than helpful.  If they find out.  Or some other sort of functionality.

And so on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Gist of It:  Coded interests and boons provide constant goals and motivations of leaders and provide constant background activity for their underlings.  It brings back 'the recruiting drive' where different houses need -and- want more employees.  Through providing this for the 'go getters' and 'action oriented' people, intrigue and social drive and status become more prevalent once again.  A short-lived character with more involvement can be far more prestigious and valuable than someone who trains all day to become long lived.  People get to choose between cooperation and obstruction with various groups based on their current needs and social standing.  The above is a skeleton:  You could add all sorts of scripts to this to make it more effective, more immersive, more intelligent, etc etc.


While most of them will be large projects, they are also projects that innately -provide content-, and even if there are no players, it makes the world change by small degrees that if players get involved, they can have impacts.  It also takes a lot of work up front, but removes the burden of content generators on both player side and staff side.  There are innate, built in goals to be worked around, and staff can move in and out gracefully to provide alternate goals, or use this system as an indicator of progress (i.e. Oh, as a templar, you could work on that building project if you chose.  Step one is to get labor slaves, which you'll have to either pay Borsail for, work out an arrangement for them to allocate this many slaves, etc etc).

Another example either later today or tomorrow.  But if we use Armageddon's advantage, which is the best roleplayers in the text-based world (pretty much) + a robust code that allows players to work on things on their own and influence things, I think you'll see a big spike in activity and interest from pretty much every demographic of roleplayer.


Edit:  I forgot to add.  Player clans.  Under such systems, they have a lot more opportunities to contribute, especially if you make player-foragers contribute to stockpiles.  They can be mercenaries.  They can turn in resources.  They can build supplies needed by various groups.  They can be caravan guards.  So on and so on.  But first and foremost, eliminating the idea that player clans shouldn't compete with real clans is something that has to be done; if they find a way to not compete, they'll likely thrive, but if they want to compete with other clans in their roles, that only -increases- the motivation for players to react to the actions of other players, making the web of interaction more complete and interesting.  If you have a blanket turn-in place in Red Storm, it will even promote PC raider groups.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:16:48 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 05:01:25 PM »
Quote
Caravan- On the delivery date set for each resource, spawn a wagon object.  Attach an escort to it (in the case of Allanaki resources, a small entourage of soldiers is likely).  Have it travel along a set route, with tested movement-rates that make sense for the cargo/average size of shipment.  Each should have it's own delivery 'room', where when it's reached, the 'amount' determined by the counter from the Resource Camp is added to the 'stockpile' of that area.  The items become virtual again.  The stockpile amount is tracked.

Raiding Camp- Randomly spawn. Make it populate with a -small- number of NPC's bearing the 'raider' flag.  One guard, one leader, one member.  Randomly select two raiding days.  Each raiding day, 1 leader takes the henchmen out on a randomly generated path of a certain number of rooms, then when it reaches the end, it generates the shortest path back to their camp location.  Any beasts they encounter, they fight and skin.  Any humanoids they encounter, they attack with similar effect as the 'rinth mugger code; not -meant- to be lethal, but accidents happen, and the intent is to strip them of items.  On return to the camp, items with a value of <300 (arbitrary amount) become virtually sold. Valuable items are stored (after value is added to the camp).  'Camp value', based on what they've 'earned', is tracked, and on milestones they gain new henchmen, new leaders, and new guards.  'Raiders' will attack other raiders if their campID is different, if possible.  Thus, they will grow depending on location and success.

Tribe/Family Camp- Randomly spawn.  Populate with 'forager' NPC's.  Three guards, three foragers, two hunter. Select hunting days.  Every day, foragers find a location within a certain radius to forage for a random resource type.  On hunting days, hunters go out and look for beasts to fight and skin.  Everything is brought back.  Items with value <40 (arbitrary number) become virtual and contribute their value to 'Camp Value'.  The rest are stored within the camp (after having their value contribute as well).  Every <amount of IC time>, a check is made against camp-value to see what milestone they are above.  Camp grows.  Ratio of guards is very low.

City Foragers- Random spawn, but at the gates.  Some go to salt.  Some go to look for obsidian mines.  Some hunt.  Some forage for stone.  Same idea, they return, they turn in their finds, but they contribute to the 'stockpile value' of the city.

Brilliant ideas. 100% on board with these.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 05:20:48 PM »
NPC raiders would be alright, but there'd have to be a bunch of anti-powergaming factors built in.

E.g.

1.  No gear that PCs can get rich off of (similar to gith gear).
2.  Not acting like dummies vs. ranged attacks.
3.  Not acting like dummies vs. magick.

However, I have a feeling that eventually players would just realize that crit-wounding without killing the raider NPCs will result in them not respawning, so over an uptime, the game world will become progressively more littered with camps full of mortally-wounded naked raiders.

Overall, it sounds like a lot of fun, don't get me wrong.  But whew...I can't even imagine the code trickery required to get all those moving parts to actually work together without shit getting straight retarded.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 05:23:53 PM »
I'm not really in to argue the ins and outs of the example.

I'm more involved in the principal of additions to the game being 'base level' code that is actual content generation for players to take a bite out of and incentivizes them into activity, as well as providing roles for people to play from various different goal-oriented perspectives.  I think this kind of approach to modifications of the game is more healthy than content removal.

Everyone's doing a great job.  I appreciate the work of staff, and the contributions of players.  But the direction we've been moving in does kind of make me feel like I'm playing Skyrim with poor AI and the Greybeards, instead of shouting 'DO-VAH-KEEEEN', shouting 'TEA PARTY AT WIIIIINTERHOOOOLD'.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 05:25:29 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Harmless

  • Posts: 2618
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 06:07:17 PM »
Back in the day there was more to do in a lot of clans because of a constant feeling of competing with other players. Everything had an opposite or competing parallel side to it: even within GMHs, there were north and south divisions, there were competing allanaki military divisions (arm AND wyverns or tor) tuluki military divisions (militia vs legion) multiple tribal humans, elves.. and then those multigroups could form alliances, say sun runners and arabeti both hating on gypsies (random example) or militia from tuluk making ties with some Kuracis that the legionnaires are too stuck up to bother with.

A lot of EvilOne's suggestions are good arguments for why reopening those clans (every major clan role has both a "frienemy" and true enemies) would really stimulate more interest in the roles themselves. Being more likely to interact is nice, but if we all end up feeling forced to be allies or simple enemies because of a lack of diversity within role types to create this less than friendly competition, then the interactions become more bland and predictable.

As for the playerbase, we don't have to try all of them at once, and staff could probably use their oversight to herd us into the right places more often than not. Facilitating ooc communication enough to enable planning for roles more openly would ensure that roles get filled, rather than the current "surprise, now you can be this, but you have to store your character now, and your buddy who wanted to do this role with you last year is currently unavailable" kinda thing.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 06:18:28 PM by Harmless »
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Akaramu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 07:45:51 PM »
Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Maybe I can think of something else later.  :P

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 07:52:32 PM »
Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Maybe I can think of something else later.  :P

My old friend, known here as Briar, has expressed that the change to magick classes are a major reason why she has no interest in playing/staffing anymore.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Akaramu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2017, 06:27:14 AM »
Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Full elementalists.

Maybe I can think of something else later.  :P

My old friend, known here as Briar, has expressed that the change to magick classes are a major reason why she has no interest in playing/staffing anymore.

I enjoy my current PC, but I don't know if I'll keep playing after that one.

Cind

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2017, 06:51:36 AM »
"An actual enemy that challenges Allanak." What about a rogue, perhaps a duo or trio, that has somehow gotten ahold of immortality (or at least not dying, perhaps becoming very old and just staying like that, like immortals in the Fable games.) Or just normal raiders (to increase hiring capabilities.) These would be npcs who have a bone to pick with the city, occasionally sojourn to Storm for supplies and perhaps recruits, and just in general are so good at hiding that they never get caught?

But their subordinates, the pc rogues (secret or no, depending) and human traitors and muls, they'd get caught, big-time. But they'd at least have more interaction (for the rogues anyway) and more fun for longer.

In reality, the group would be run by what amounts to assistant managers. They answer to the Top Two or Top Three, but they are the leadership presence that pcs deal with.

No bribing the city. It should be theoretically possible for a raiding group to exist for more than a year without having to bribe the city.

Another thing this would add is Storm actually being more to Allanak than a weak-fisted, generic "them" that offers good prices for flour. Antagonism between the two regions feels like it has no teeth. Storm backing a group that poses a genuine threat to Allanak would be more fitting for the vibes. That's why I say take away the bribes. Find some sort of metagame-proof foundation for the raiders to stand on that doesn't involve bowing to the might of Allanak.
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Lizzie

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2017, 08:33:21 AM »
Once upon a time, there was a raider group of NPCs that decided to wreak havoc near Allanak. Within a couple of RL months it was destroyed by PCs. The end.

That's pretty much how antagonist NPC groups go. It's great for a little while, but once it's gone, there's that typical let-down feeling of "this was just another contrived plotline to give us something to do, because there really isn't anything to do." That isn't really how it is, but it is how it feels when those types of plotlines end.

Then there was the shooting star thing. Was that related to the elemental guild split? If it was related to anything else, I still am clueless and again - just seems like an attempt at a big, bold deus ex machina to a mysterious, obscure plot. If it was related to the guild split, I would've loved to have heard the temple NPCs talking about it when I played a mage during that time. Surely they would've had something to say to their students/adherents.

As for "spreading the game too thin" by adding more clans, I don't think that'll happen. Our *active* playerbase was around the same 15 years ago as it is now, and there were lots more clans, and there was lots more happening. Granted, the staff was lots more "hands on" and drove lots more of the plotlines. But I don't see why that should be a problem. That's what storytellers are for. To tell the stories that the players can run with.

My first character ever in Arm:  Veddi Muark was - Veddi Muark. Pearl wasn't yet Lord Borsail's aide, she was still with what's-his-name the Red, and spewing custom silk clothing out of her ass by the dozens. I don't think Quick the First had been invented yet. My newbie burglar was immediately taken under the wing of another commoner, who just happened to serve a templar. Templar hired my girl as an Aide. She ended up overseeing a kid who was turned into a slave for doing some kind of thing I can't even remember anymore, some other player new to Armageddon. Meanwhile, Tuluk was JUST destroyed, the Rebellion was hella active, Sargax Kurac was running Luir's, and a staff-run Guild boss convinced my gullible noob self to take a walk with him. He invised and floated her into the Rinth, inducted her, and told her that she's his bitch now. Templar she worked for ran off, she was now working for Oash, which had several mages and a couple of elites in it. Tor also was active with a noble, a couple of Scorpions, and a gemmed drovian. Kadius was mostly up in what was left of Tuluk, up in Freil's Rest.

My girl got whacked by her guild boss eventually. Pretty sure Kurac contracted that PK. Either way it was my most memorable and favorite death.

My next character was with Kurac, got a reputation for being a super scary assassin even though she'd never killed anyone.  She was hired just before Danu (Seeker's first character) was hired.  She was also a member of their Special Ops and had all kinds of insane experiences including secret meetings with a secret mindbender who was based out of Allanak. She was assassinated by her boyfriend, who was an Outrider, per orders of either Sargax or the Kurac Senior Somethingorother.

The reason I mention all of this is to show how EASY it was for a brand new player to get involved in all kinds of crazy shit, from the moment they stepped out of chargen, back when there weren't any more players than there are now, but there were a lot more clans, and secret clans-within-clans, ready and waiting to "snatch the newbie" into their clan and groom them for greatness (or destruction).

I'm not seeing much of that these days. I'd like to see more of it, but that would require going back to certain things we had then, that we don't have now. Like - more opened clans, some secret clans-within-clans, full elementalist guilds, full-sorcs (even if they're secret staff-picked sponsored roles), full Nilaz guild. My experience proves to me that the negative connotation of "diluting the clans" by making more of them with a limited playerbase, isn't a thing at all.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2017, 01:29:46 PM »
Once upon a time, there was a raider group of NPCs that decided to wreak havoc near Allanak. Within a couple of RL months it was destroyed by PCs. The end.

That's pretty much how antagonist NPC groups go. It's great for a little while, but once it's gone, there's that typical let-down feeling of "this was just another contrived plotline to give us something to do, because there really isn't anything to do." That isn't really how it is, but it is how it feels when those types of plotlines end.

Then there was the shooting star thing. Was that related to the elemental guild split? If it was related to anything else, I still am clueless and again - just seems like an attempt at a big, bold deus ex machina to a mysterious, obscure plot. If it was related to the guild split, I would've loved to have heard the temple NPCs talking about it when I played a mage during that time. Surely they would've had something to say to their students/adherents.

As for "spreading the game too thin" by adding more clans, I don't think that'll happen. Our *active* playerbase was around the same 15 years ago as it is now, and there were lots more clans, and there was lots more happening. Granted, the staff was lots more "hands on" and drove lots more of the plotlines. But I don't see why that should be a problem. That's what storytellers are for. To tell the stories that the players can run with.

The shooting star didn't really have anything to do with magick (despite appearances) and certainly not anything to do with the Mage Guild split. I could speculate on what it was actually about, what the goal was and what the OOC/IC fallout has been but it's only been eight months. It certainly wasn't an errant nuclear missile launch from the Vestric Space Station.

But maybe they should have been related. Plots that give IC justification to the world evolving help keep people invested in the end game narrative, rather than caught up in the OOC machinations behind such changes. Seidhr once said "Arm is about the journey instead of the destination" but right now I don't feel like there's much journeying to be done in game. The game world doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
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Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1775
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2017, 02:32:59 PM »
Sometimes it seems that the means to maintain the status quo strangles off conflict. And the problem with this is that the game thrives on conflict. I think a welcome addition to the game would be more conflict that doesn't rely on players to initiate (being the change) because players shouldn't be required to put their characters at risk by being the lynchpin to an upstart conflict, putting a target on their back. Players being the change and initiating their own things make the game much better, but it should be supplementary sources of conflict.

The conflict could be something that any player could take sides on (even secretly) and be involved with without having to have special connections (though they'd certainly help). Something that players both wouldn't be required to participate in, and something that's going to be institutional enough it isn't easily squashed by another group in the game.

Essentially this would need to be something that would fall within the realm of the story of Zalanthas. Something that happens simultaneously that isn't just the sum of all the player stories interacting, but also the active story of the virtual world, while entangling and encompassing the stories of the players, it exists independently and continues on consistently even without interaction with players (even though it's goal would be for players to involve themselves, which is going to happen.)

nauta

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2017, 02:58:02 PM »
Tell beautiful stories.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Dresan

  • Posts: 1149
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 06:37:34 PM »
The economy was mentioned so just going to throw this in here.

In less than 30 mins after a crash all shops buying scrab legs are already stocked full.

I won't argue the 5 limit per shop thing, but would still love to see a 1-5 sid per item bits and bites shop. It would also solve the issue with guts and hides littering the floors.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:25:31 PM by Dresan »
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Barsook

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 06:53:47 PM »
but would still love to see a 1-5 sid per item bits and bites shop. It would also solve the issue with guts and hides littering the floors.

Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2017, 03:32:55 AM »
A shop in Allanak that sells coffee beans, tea leaves, teapots, percolators (an old-fashioned coffee brewer) and cups. You'd think this would be a thing for people who could afford plant-juice. I know I've seen espresso before.

Fleshing out the rinth. Making it possible to survive just in the rinth without having to be a Guild member. (I've never played, but I imagine they get sent out sometimes anyway.) Seeing rinthis out hunting and grebbing kind of feels a little weird. Maybe its just me. I've seen people post this one before. Honestly, the only reason half of them aren't salting and mining sid/glass is probably because they'd have to give it to the city. If someone is living in the rinth and never leaving, and they aren't in a gang, you're going to start suspecting them of being a witch.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

Armaddict

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2017, 03:07:20 PM »
Quote
Seeing rinthis out hunting and grebbing kind of feels a little weird.

The vast majority of 'commerce' in the 'rinth is based on business and ventures outside of the alleys.  If you want to be totally isolationist, it is entirely possible given what's there, but as far as those who never wander out, that's kind of a role for the vNPC's.

Not that I disagree with fleshing out the labyrinth, but only if it's done in a way that fights the mentality that the labyrinth is a rebel state of Allanak rather than the unpatrolled, redheaded stepchild slum of it.  The difference is that one is the state saying it doesn't care and shirking it, and so it learns to govern itself.  The other makes it some aggressively defended faction, which is not true to history.  The moment people started expecting 'rinthers to play as isolated characters that were traitors if they brought in coin from elsewhere, the narrative got pretty skewed.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2017, 05:21:33 AM »
The idea of 'what rinthis should be doing' has always been unclear in my mind.

A stall to which you can sell anything from chaltons, vultures and silt hawks for pittances, like an official last stop shop, which then turns around and crafts different items from the objects for a cheap or medium price since those things are so common and easy to hunt.

You could throw in a few things already made in the database like the ivory strigil, and have other things like chalton gloves (which I have -never- seen), chalton boots, chalton armor, feather jewelry. I always liked those twists of two different color feathers. Black vulture and grey hawk feather twists should be relatively common among hunters but I've never ever seen it.

This shop would take five each of item every real-life day, rather than every reboot. Materials made from those animals alone should be more widespread, I think, and their cost should endear them more to a poor people who might not be able to afford salt worm teeth and mekillot hide.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2017, 06:01:24 AM »
What I mean by a pittance is like what someone else suggested; 1-5 sids per take, with most items being one or two sids and perhaps ivory being five. This might make it the place to go to unload ivory but it should be considered valuable. Maybe toss in scrab legs; but not scrab shell, because they don't deal in good stuff like that.

My thinking is that the city is large enough to accommodate the leavings of all the pc hunters playing, even though the city feels smaller because most of it is virtual.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »
Racial crafting.

Its not really racial, its culture-based, but with the strong racism in the game they are practically the same thing.

If you are an elf, you can make elf-specific crafts if you have the right crafting skills. Humans, human. Half-elves can choose whether they want to know more about human or elven crafting, so that secret breeds can stay secret and you can guess who raised the half-elf from what they can craft. I'm not sure dwarves are common enough to have a solid culture with actual trends.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

Riev

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 03:18:11 PM »
Fake-item crafting. Knock-offs.

Maybe something from a mastercraft, but basically have the same sdesc/mdesc but a different itemID, crafted to have no weapon durability, or 0 armor protection. Or timers like food that waste them away quickly.

Buying a bone plate vest from an elf? Well, it DOES have a Salarr insignia burned into it, its probably legit...

 *- Merchants and those with value skill could tell if it was high quality or a knockoff.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Synthesis

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2017, 06:50:41 PM »
Shitty item crafting would just end up being the new pickpocketing.

I.e. people would try it for the lulz, then never do it again, because you'd be hunted with more righteous fury than if you were a full defiler using an army of demons to shovel shit directly into Allanak's water supply.

Brainstorming RPT:  defiler raises army of demons to shovel shit directly into Allanak's water supply
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Armaddict

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2017, 07:24:03 PM »
Quote
Brainstorming RPT:  defiler raises army of demons to shovel shit directly into Allanak's water supply

So it taints the element of vivadu?
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 381
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2017, 06:07:54 PM »
If we're going to open military organizations why not (with available numbers) split up the jade sabers and rotate some of the members out to the forward fortress with Obsidian Storm.
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Armaddict

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2017, 06:17:45 PM »
If we're going to open military organizations why not (with available numbers) split up the jade sabers and rotate some of the members out to the forward fortress with Obsidian Storm.

I've always liked the idea of the Arm having forward 'battle fronts' with actual content for them.  But I'd actually say do that in lieu of opening other clans, not a simultaneous move.  Otherwise we might thin out too much for our current pbase.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 381
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2017, 08:01:22 PM »
If we're going to open military organizations why not (with available numbers) split up the jade sabers and rotate some of the members out to the forward fortress with Obsidian Storm.

I've always liked the idea of the Arm having forward 'battle fronts' with actual content for them.  But I'd actually say do that in lieu of opening other clans, not a simultaneous move.  Otherwise we might thin out too much for our current pbase.

Or that. I'd just like to see the AOD also get a little action outside of Medieval Law and Order. It could work under the same pretext that Kurac is right now. Honestly, any of the "front lines" are ten minutes of spam walking away (or a full three hour RPT, depending on how you want to stretch it).
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2017, 05:44:43 AM »
Treasure Hunt. Kadius feeds people in Red's, tells them the objects they are looking for, tells them to look in Allanaki lands, offers rewards of different amounts for each object. Maybe a fancy sword or some money, some Kadian-made crafts.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 381
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2017, 08:59:42 PM »
Hidden things placed maybe once a RL month or so in corresponding "artifact" areas. The churning sands are bound to kick up every now and again and finding an old magickal artifact, strange gem, unrecognizable fetish, book, rusted fist-sized chunk, whatever (these examples are just that and might be a bit out of the norm for the setting.). It would be cool to find things that have value hidden in the game world to give more incentive than cool room descriptions (which I love, don't get me wrong) but tend to eventually make one believe that the gameworld is just empty.

Further, even playing a mundane and finding something like that would be interesting and if they are placed at semi-random locations and intervals then it's about gumption, balls, and exploration than accused favoritism.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Akaramu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2017, 09:30:50 AM »
I've always liked the idea of the Arm having forward 'battle fronts' with actual content for them.  But I'd actually say do that in lieu of opening other clans, not a simultaneous move.  Otherwise we might thin out too much for our current pbase.

This sounds super awesome. I'm also still hoping for that demon invasion...  8)

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2017, 03:41:22 PM »
Someone blow up Allanak already!
I wish the end game plot that "wrapped up" last year (or maybe the year before) had left both cities in ruins. No OOC"Tuluk is closed."  Blow that shit off the map (again?).

With the player clan system in place, it would have been the biggest game of king of the hill since the Copper Wars.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

shadeoux

  • Posts: 970
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2017, 04:10:16 PM »
I'd like to see some sort of hostile Delf clan opened up in the south that relies on raiding PC's and NPC's. Super Sekret Stuffs prevents them from being located and hunted down by the powers that be.

A raiding group, similar to what Blackmoon was.
(For those that may not know, I'm sure one of the other vets or staff will tell you about Blackmoon.)

A rogue "Conclave sized" group of preservers and elementalists alike working to a common goal of fertilizing the south like the north again.

The discovery of the buried city of Steinal and taking a group out and looting it.
(Dungeon Delve - Allowing all persons to go explore, and if you want something discovered or used as a plot hook, put it behind some door some place.)

An earthquake that causes the sea of silt to drain, allowing travel on foot through a large portion of it, until it reaches to deep again, unlocking many numerous new spots for relics, demons and other things to come out of.

The discovery of another conflict area, be it metal, magic or knowledge based where normal everyday PC's can go to and explore.


Two dwarves get into a small fist-fray over who owns a pile of dung at the roadside.

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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2017, 01:39:31 AM »
Someone blow up Allanak already!
I wish the end game plot that "wrapped up" last year (or maybe the year before) had left both cities in ruins. No OOC"Tuluk is closed."  Blow that shit off the map (again?).

With the player clan system in place, it would have been the biggest game of king of the hill since the Copper Wars.

This would actually be a really cool way of changing the entire game in a way players could get truly involved, assuming staff were willing to put in the works to allow players to 'rebuild' to a small degree, but in little pockets of territory.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 10:05:19 AM »
It was the most appealing aspect of what Armageddon Reborn was supposed to be. A sandbox where the world wasn't ran by two superpowers way beyond the scope of what players could hope to affect.  Think of how much staff work and playerbase sequestration could be alleviated by eliminating Noble Houses?  Tek and Muk run off together for greener pastures and much emo manly love between them leaving their templar all but powerless as they quickly subcome to mob rule.  Level the AOD to a small enough IC population that a player could hope to have their PC make it to general as his soldiers do everything they can to keep control over what is left of the ruined southern half of the commoner's quarter, nothing but sand and ruin between them and the Guild or Jaxa Pah Controlled 'Rinth, now it's own separate village as they try to rebuild the southern wall from the ruins.  The Gems all explode, ruining that Quarter, or as a last laugh, Tek drains all the gicks' lifeforce on the way out, leaving the place haunted by ghosts or a legion of undead.

Sorry, I could go on for days talking about how much more fun and player-driven the world (not just the game as it stands now) could be without god-level sorcerer/psionocists running the world and being able to Blackrobe/High-Faithful any player driven plot or quest just to maintain 20 RL years of status quo.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2017, 10:09:18 AM »
Also, destroy any existing lockable buildings and add a locksmith skill code that can only be gained in game until the technology is rediscovered or redeveloped.  Introduce a farming/hearding code. Locked doors hinder interaction of a dwindling player base.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2017, 10:09:24 AM »
A rogue "Conclave sized" group of preservers and elementalists alike working to a common goal of fertilizing the south like the north again.

This was tried a few years ago in the place that Hasaan's group occupied.  Nice little hippy commune that wanted to be left alone and make a distant corner of the world a better place.  The powers that be in Allanak (far above what player-level can affect or hope to fight against) decided no, and kept coming after us, and eventually it sent Hasaan down a path that ended up turning into what most of the game ended up knowing him as... at least that's how I saw things from my point of view.  If they (Tek and Muk and their templars, not necessarily staff) spent that level of effort on the world (not just keeping player-groups in check) there would be no tribes or villages left.

Again, that's why I think Allanak and Tuluk should be blown up, and we move toward the player-ran world-spanning reset button where every group left after "the disaster" is left on level footing with no god-level entities or status quo left to enforce.  It would be much better, in my opinion, for a smaller player base to be able to actually change the game world in a meaningful way beyond having a few room descriptions change or having a story left on the rumor board for a couple years.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:14:40 AM by FantasyWriter »
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

Miradus

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2017, 10:16:08 AM »
That would be a completely different game, but I'd play that game. :)


FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM »
I don't play Armageddon because I like Allanak or Tuluk, I play Armageddon because of the setting and the quality of writing and roleplay.  When I began playing the game (or rather later when I started participating int he community) that was the plan.  The history and lore will still be there, there will still be the same rules to the universe, but the kings will be overthrown.  Read the stories staff wrote about Tek's father's early days.  He started as a tribal warrior, IIRC, the Same with Utep. They rose from the ashes of a destroyed civilization.  Staff at one point planned to start the cycle over again, and I still believe that would have been and is a great direction for the game to go in.  Also, wasn't Allanak Tek's faternal grandmother's name?
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2017, 10:42:12 AM »
I can see the AoD faithfuls bowing and praying to the dragon's head (all that is left of the great steel statue), begging for his return to save them. It would be an awesome cult concept... worshiping a long lost god who had abandoned his people to the harshness of the desert because of their failings.  A war-wizard rising through the ranks as he wins Victory after victory against the invaders and looters of tand trying to claim what he believes is his place as the Dragon's Shadow. He spends his life seeking out the Obsidian Crown from the tower ruins, where he finds the tattered rags of templars robes on the long-rotted corpses and now cracked, useless medallions to bestow upon his most devoted warriors and servants.

You end up with the same power structure, but with players capable of reaching the top and small player-group sized victories actually meaning something to the future of the game.  Something that smaller MUDs need, I think.  What did the battle in the Tryn Daisa change for characters who are alive today? (Sorry, I can never remember the name of the gypsy lands without looking it up) Did that battle actually change anything other than closing Tuluk, wiping out a tribe or two? We're right back to where we were before hand more or less unless you are an Evershiner. ;)  Basically the same game with several options to play eliminated.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:50:15 AM by FantasyWriter »
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2017, 11:02:11 AM »
It's the scale of the world that I think is the biggest problem.

Allanak has a population of about 4-500,000 people. What are a even a hundred active player-characters going to be able to affect? Even when they are the best of the best in their profession?
Reduce that to a village of a few thousand without entities with abilities beyond those attainable by anyone willing to work hard and long enough for them. 50 active player-characters can affect that.

I'm nearly out of stories to tell, it seems from the GDB and friends of mine who have left the game that it is a pretty common thing after so many years.  It's starting to feel like when an author you like keeps popping out book after book in the same world, eventually you stop seeing new material and it all feels recycled.  Imagine 20 years from now and there being 200 Harry Potter books out. Do you think the quality will still be on as the originals?
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TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2017, 11:51:20 AM »
Oh, oh! Let's just blow everything up. A single surviving House (I choose Borsail) will run the ruins of Allanak, its players being mostly in charge. The Patriarch/Matriarch is selected by vote every 6 months and players vie for the top spot. Populations are greatly diminished and this House runs whatever it can with its few remaining resources - a hefty swath of Allanak's ruins being lawless. They'll have to actively work to enforce their will. They'll handle finances, securing supplies, and so on. Right now, it's all too top heavy and PCs feel utterly... uh, stuck by demi-gods and literal gods permeating every facet of the upper tier.

There's no such thing as gemmed in the new world and the few military holdings under Borsail control are actively sent to investigate and hunt magickers throughout the Known. They're a danger to everyone and will destroy what little is left.

By and large, the game would then center around outposts, PC groups, et cetera, and actually give meaning to mundane actions. Whereas right now, they're mostly pointless. A little like real life. If I orchestrated the destruction of a shipment of food, there could be an actual impact on the powers that be.

You wouldn't even have to change the post-apocalyptic landscape too much. Do an open call for description submissions from players to adjust sections of Allanak, erase Tuluk, and maybe cream some of Kurac's power. Voila.

Mmm. These are just dreamy ramblings about reduction, though. What were we talking about again?
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Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2017, 02:59:45 PM »
Blow it all up.

A world of tiny tribes, without huge city-states sounds like an -amazing- direction for Armageddon.

Suck it, Tek.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 174
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2017, 03:22:59 PM »
Yeah, I would love that. Fewer untouchable powers that you can't hope to challenge, more player leadership that matters, more diverse cultures (and more culture clashes to go with!) and lots and lots of juicy tribal conflict. I'm salivating even though I doubt it's ever going to happen.

Maybe if Arm ever DOES die (and I hope it doesn't--not for a long, long time!) someone could ask permission to make their own spin-off.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 03:24:30 PM by sleepyhead »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2017, 12:55:30 PM »
-Make food vendors run with the same script as purplish crystals for globbuluk, i.e. You can't get food if no one is bringing them any.
-Allow solitary/small groups of gith and mantis to move near Allanak again so that food sources aren't just free; One of the aspects of playing a hunter before was the feast and famine routine of weather and proximity of baddies.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2017, 01:15:53 PM »
-Make food vendors run with the same script as purplish crystals for globbuluk, i.e. You can't get food if no one is bringing them any.
-Allow solitary/small groups of gith and mantis to move near Allanak again so that food sources aren't just free; One of the aspects of playing a hunter before was the feast and famine routine of weather and proximity of baddies.

That might've been fine way back when, but since the defense nerf and reel code went in, randomly running into a single something that totally outclasses you and has decent strength can be a death sentence.  It's one of the reasons I hate playing in the grasslands...you can easily memorize the usual bahamet travel paths, but if they aggro on an auto-flee critter, there's no telling where they'll end up, and I've lost several interesting characters over the years to random bahamets popping up and reel-locking me.

From a game-design standpoint, it's really shitty to put level 10 mobs in a level 1 zone in a game that requires leveling up (skilling up is essentially leveling up), especially when leveling up takes SO LONG and dying means you start over from zero.  You can argue harsh environment, yadda yadda all you want, but at a certain point, it just isn't any fun to die pointless deaths courtesy of the RNG.

It reminds me of the "hard" mode on one of the old WWII FPS single-player campaigns...where you could be sprinting from cover to cover, playing it as safe as you possibly could, but half the time you would die storming the beach in the first mission of the first campaign from a random enemy mortar that was completely unavoidable.  Also swamp hydras and poison-viper traps in ADOM.  Just...not fun.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:20:08 PM by Synthesis »
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Miradus

  • Posts: 1668
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2017, 01:44:19 PM »

You're also playing a game which requires an online connection. If it blips and goes out and takes a few minutes to reset, you're helpless. The game code will not extract you from the universe if/when it detects you linkless.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
That's all fine.  Hunting is supposed to be dangerous, not reliable, and well-versed hunters are supposed to be valuable, not the norm.

For someone who complains about the lack of need for warriors, you seem to be missing when warriors were just as common out the in the wild as rangers, because of the reasons you just specified: They fight better, and thus are less prone to the combat gank of big baddies.  Rangers only became 'OP' when we changed the behavior of the game world to promote less death.  Less death is bad.  More middling characters, rather than a bunch of maxxed out ones, is far more interesting of a game to exist in, not to mention that it's a problem that defeats itself.  You only need to be 'more skilled' because everyone else is, precisely because most characters in that pursuit are actually reaching it rather than it being unsafe.

I'd much rather there be real concern for how quickly you can die than a comfort zone, when it comes to outside the walls.  But incentives for actual hunting rather than viewing the game world as a skill trainer with leveled zones is always a plus for a better game dynamic regardless.

You're also playing a game which requires an online connection. If it blips and goes out and takes a few minutes to reset, you're helpless. The game code will not extract you from the universe if/when it detects you linkless.

...this is how it's always been and always will be, so I'm unsure what exactly you mean by that.  This is true in our current state as well.  Assuming we need to make the wilds safe enough to be linkdead in it isn't very conducive to anything.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Miradus

  • Posts: 1668
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2017, 02:33:19 PM »

It's how it is, how it always has been, in Armageddon.

It's not how it is on many of the other muds I've played. Even base Diku has extraction code for detection of linkless connections.

One could argue that adding this to the game would be abused more than not and that would explain its absence. Which would be a fair point. But the fact remains that it's a piece of code that most muds have and that we don't.

So making the game world harsher and making more random baddies placed around is simply going to cause a few more linkless deaths.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 02:44:28 PM »
Quote
So making the game world harsher and making more random baddies placed around is simply going to cause a few more linkless deaths.

This kind of statement is like saying converting the entire world to socialism is simply going to result in better healthcare.  It reduces all other facets of what the proposal is, which is a more necessary existence of risk.  Yes, there will be more deaths, and that is good, not bad.

Holding onto a grudge that you can die while linkdead is hardly a reason to prevent movements in the opposite direction of what we've been doing, which has been making death harder to run into at random, which is removing challenge and providing a means of steady risk-aversion until you feel like it.

Risk should be prevalent, particularly outside the city.  Those who avoid it should be somewhat tied into needing other people to do it.  It's an integral part of a Zalanthan platform, and makes for a far more interesting gameworld; the sooner people realize that character death is just as good for the game as character survival, the better.  Players can become more involved in the gameworld sooner when the majority of people already in it when their character is created are still middling rather than having spent 20 days of playtime carefully calculating progression to avoid death.

Avoiding death is the natural plan.  But the game needs to be built around providing kinks and challenges to that plan, or it's just another front for staleness.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2017, 01:04:33 PM »
Things can be challenging and risky without the presence of random instagibs.  Also, putting sentient aggro NPCs around 'nak leads to other problems with game design.  I'd be agreeable to say...moving those certain raptors closer to the city, maybe.  Gith and mantis...no.

I don't think I've ever made the argument that warriors are unnecessary.  In fact, I've been pretty clear that top-tier warriors can get away with straight ridiculous combat feats.  I don't think I've said that rangers are OP (except archery, maybe).  I've said their versatility makes them very attractive, to the point where it's difficult not to pick guild_ranger if you don't have the specific intent to become a combat god.  Rangers are good enough with PvE vs. dumb mobs that in -most- circumstances, there's little functional difference until you get to top-tier mobs with very high attack rolls.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2017, 02:49:22 PM »
Things can be challenging and risky without the presence of random instagibs.  Also, putting sentient aggro NPCs around 'nak leads to other problems with game design.  I'd be agreeable to say...moving those certain raptors closer to the city, maybe.  Gith and mantis...no.

I don't think I've ever made the argument that warriors are unnecessary.  In fact, I've been pretty clear that top-tier warriors can get away with straight ridiculous combat feats.  I don't think I've said that rangers are OP (except archery, maybe).  I've said their versatility makes them very attractive, to the point where it's difficult not to pick guild_ranger if you don't have the specific intent to become a combat god.  Rangers are good enough with PvE vs. dumb mobs that in -most- circumstances, there's little functional difference until you get to top-tier mobs with very high attack rolls.

That's fine.  I'm less about the specifics and more about getting rid of the 'safe zone' around cities, because I'm not observing a beneficial effect.  Moreso, it was about providing a linkage, albeit subtle (and not so subtle when there are no hunters), between those who never leave the city and those who do.

As far as warriors, maybe I misread one of your other recent posts.  It was in regard to military clans, when you said there was no place for warriors and people would just continue to pick rangers.  Having a more malicious environment that is harder for the less-combat-safe rangers than warriors means we could likely return to that balance:  Rangers have a harder time surviving in their early and middle stage, but warriors just don't hunt as well in late stage despite being more combat ready.  But you may disagree with that as well.

ANYWAY.  Was just a brainstorm on a way to have people able to have a more significant impact and create competition for a commonly-found resource (foodstuffs) in our state of fewer in-game clans.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2017, 03:51:45 PM »
I think where Warriors tend to shine is in their "Combat is Life" regimen, but unfortunately MOST of the game's content is not vs Humanoid. Assassinations might be against people, but they are so rarely something done open by a warrior than a legitimate backstabbing assassin that the point is moot.

I think the game needs more humanoid (not always gith) encounters. While I'm aware these HAVE happened before, it seems that any attempt at vs Humanoid interaction is in the form of enslaving tribes, or maybe fighting gith and desert elves. There is no War, there are no camps to try and take. There's no reason for someone to hire 4 warriors over 4 rangers, because the thing that makes Warriors a better fit (quicker parry, advanced weapon skills) almost never end up part of the equation, whereas a climbing sneaky ranger with just as much combat skill as the warrior, plus bandage and brew, is just better.

Part of the idea of "splitting" the city might make for more vs. Humanoid interactions. Fight clans that pop up in the Labyrinth, get tasked by the Templars to root out a thief's den, assault a barracks of soldiers. These things COULD happen, but they require building, linking, staff to run them, and players to throw at them who feel it was worth the effort. Why can't thief dens be the in-city spider holes?
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2017, 05:29:01 PM »
Quote
I think the game needs more humanoid (not always gith) encounters.

Agreed, which is where most of my ideas come around.  Things for PvPers to do, things for people who like fighting things to do, camps to pillage for 'loot', etc etc.

We have made a lot of content to observe, with clan and city removals, the content for 'battles' has gone down a great deal.

She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2017, 05:45:47 PM »
I don't even think there needs to be radiant loot quests, so much as just ... you know. Things that pop up with semi-regularity that eventually cause trouble. Spider dens are always a constant threat because EVENTUALLY, the spiders crawl east to the city and cause issues. No other "threat" exists like that, and certainly not within the city. Even if there was just random spawn locations for a thieves guild that, if left unattended, would spawn npc pickpockets or added beggars on the street. Just another thing for non-beast mobiles to cause trouble and need to be taken care of.

Anything Humanoid that causes problems for people is good, but I feel like the overwhelming consensus is that if a humanoid is causing trouble, it must come to PvP. Why not script a bandit tribe that behaves similar to the DesertSim creatures?
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shadeoux

  • Posts: 970
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2017, 06:13:26 PM »
My take on this.

I submitted a request to see if it would be possible for a new/different or returning culture to pop up/reestablish
themselves. I also offered to write up docs, items, rooms and anything else that would be needed to get something
going. I want to make this work, so I chose to be the change, you hear it all the time, but how many actually try?
Well it is my turn, wish me luck! I don't want to see this game I hold dear spiral into nothing after everyone investing
so much time playing and contributing over the last few decades.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2017, 06:15:50 PM »
I don't even think there needs to be radiant loot quests, so much as just ... you know. Things that pop up with semi-regularity that eventually cause trouble. Spider dens are always a constant threat because EVENTUALLY, the spiders crawl east to the city and cause issues. No other "threat" exists like that, and certainly not within the city. Even if there was just random spawn locations for a thieves guild that, if left unattended, would spawn npc pickpockets or added beggars on the street. Just another thing for non-beast mobiles to cause trouble and need to be taken care of.

Anything Humanoid that causes problems for people is good, but I feel like the overwhelming consensus is that if a humanoid is causing trouble, it must come to PvP. Why not script a bandit tribe that behaves similar to the DesertSim creatures?

See my first post in thread.  I wanted that idea expanded on as a nice big content generator, and applicable across lots of different areas.  Bandit camps were the example, but other such ideas would be akin to an 'oppression meter' that sparks 'rinth vs soldier NPC activity.  That's with or without players.  Left unattended, it can result in soldiers deeper in the labyrinth, and thugs deeper in the city.  Would give PC militia things to do, and actual 'violence' for 'rinthers to engage in.  Have the oppression meter affected by actions in that conflict.

Those are my idea of content generation.  Things that, left unattended, become a serious issue, thus providing a constant 'thing that has to be worked on/reason to log in'.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

nauta

  • Posts: 2147
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2017, 06:23:27 PM »
My thoughts:

1) I agree with Synthesis that the bahamet/mekillot insta-kill really makes hunting in those places less 'fun' in the sense that going into those zones is really just a roll the dice thing, rather than a strategy thing.  You will eventually roll the wrong number no matter how buff.

2) The three most fun ecosystems in the game, IMHO, are the Grey Forest, the southern Tablelands, and the Mantis Valley.  The mobs aren't insta-kill but are hard and keep you on your toes; they have scripted patterns which allow for strategery; and there's a lot of twists and turns to the landscape itself, so you can do different things.  (There are other little pockets out there that are like those zones too, but, I swear, I could live in the Grey Forest forever if I didn't have to interact with 'people'.)

No zone is really perfect, though.  It sort of requires a perfect storm of scripted hard (but not insta-kill) mobs and geographical diversity that make those places so much fun to solo in.

I'd imagine tinkering with these ecosystems is a lot of fun for staff too.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1149
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2017, 06:24:26 PM »
I know I've posted this before but I never mind repeating it:

1. The virtual power ceiling in Allanak need to be slapped down hard.
2. Things need to happen, outside of Allanak, that its nobility and Templar give a shit about but they cannot easily influence, get information about or control.
3. The ruling class needs to be given a proper reason to care about the millions of unwashed masses.

The interactions between templars/nobles and commoners feels really forced. There is absolutely no reason for them to care about commoners.  The last time I played a merchant, there was nothing I could offer nobility that made them interested in interacting with my characters, information on gith war, resources (gems/wood/heck metal),  heck a person on the outside to go to places they couldn't. Nope. Nothing. No interest what's so ever, and why would there be when they have absolutely everything.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:29:53 PM by Dresan »
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5867
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2017, 06:36:50 PM »
Dresan:

That was why I was a little more irritated by the emphasis on the tablelands, because we essentially shut down an enemy state in order to put more into an isolated one where the in-tablelands dynamic was there...but it left almost no relationship with what was happening there and the rest of the world.

Again, in my original example, adding content to the game and then having each noble have stipends and house standing tied to how well they're performing in those pieces of content was my fix for it.  Do you have any other examples/ideas that give a different approach to the same problem (I only ask because we're both acknowledging that said thing exists)?
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

shadeoux

  • Posts: 970
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2017, 06:42:46 PM »
I know I've posted this before but I never mind repeating it:

1. The virtual power ceiling in Allanak need to be slapped down hard.
2. Things need to happen, outside of Allanak, that its nobility and Templar give a shit about but they cannot easily influence, get information about or control.
3. The ruling class needs to be given a proper reason to care about the millions of unwashed masses.

The interactions between templars/nobles and commoners feels really forced. There is absolutely no reason for them to care about commoners.  The last time I played a merchant, there was nothing I could offer nobility that made them interested in interacting with my characters, information on gith war, resources (gems/wood/heck metal),  heck a person on the outside to go to places they couldn't. Nope. Nothing. No interest what's so ever, and why would there be when they have absolutely everything.

I know this is something that they are trying to changed, but again it still feels so forced. Like the noble/templar are completely bored and just come to see if they can get some entertainment, far from impact or meaningful.  The nobility of tuluk once incited the public to riot against the templars, and won quite a bit of power. They also had goals out the box to build that influence with the public, through partisanship and public work.  Allanak nobility could become virtual and I'm not sure I would even really notice.

In short, Allanak's culture worked well with Tuluk, but without it some aspects of its culture/virtual power may need to change to keep the game from feeling stagnant.

With the Highlord being able to transform into a dragon, presumably at will, the only thing that can stand up to him, he has destroyed,
trapped, or removed in some fashion. I don't see this ceiling lessening by any accounts short of godly intervention. A -volcano- was
moved away ffs.
I would love to see Nak crack, and the templars and nobles scatter for supremacy amid the collapsing ecosystem that it is. But once
again, Tek I think has been built up so high, he's damned near godlike in power. Nothing, save Sand Man (possibly), Muk, or a couple
of other lesser known entities can stand up to Tek, and even then, Muk would be the only one not to falter with in the first seconds imho.
Can we get a meteor strike straight into Teks Tower, killing the Highlord, devastating the city and surrounding lands, or have the true
giants use the city as a bubblebath.

Sorry rambling.
Two dwarves get into a small fist-fray over who owns a pile of dung at the roadside.

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Dresan

  • Posts: 1149
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
Armaddict, I like your idea.

But I do think we just need re-evaluate where their value lies within the city and how that value is tied with the unwashed masses. In many cases I have no idea what their purpose or role is within a city, and that should be made bad or detrimental to them.  They really need to have more value other than, because the highlord said so and they are rich. I don't think this means that their roles need to be dividing in the same way as Tuluk nobility, but what they contribute should be more clearly defined. The contributions a noble house gives to the city is what allows it to be first, second or third tier nobility, which brings more prestige, power and influence. 

In order to achieve things, they can't just depend on the byn (the only force they may be able to hire). It will also greatly help them to find resources, they cannot just depend on family slaves, militia, or GMH forces. Talented Commoners should be resources which can be acquired, stolen or killed. These resources can be acquired through favors which can save limted budget money. Example: Noble needs to do X with byn, but cost is high, their monthly budget is low. The only reason they can afford it is because they have invested in a commoner run business which is doing well.

There is a lot of things that can be done here, but frankly the culture and message is that nobles are filthy rich, need nothing, and don't need to achieve anything. They can go to Reds, sit down, smoke spice, and never have to worry about a thing.
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Cind

  • Posts: 1250
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2017, 11:19:51 PM »
I idea'd the idea of a bookstore, for nobles and House merchants who know cavilish (like, I dunno, a book for learning cavilish and a book of House rules and regulations.)

I dunno how much that would add to the game, though. I'm guessing Templars and nobles would get a kick out of it, and give nobles something to do when people aren't around.
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Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »
There are/were libraries, and a number of books that talk about things that have happened in game. Most of them written by players of old.

I had a Tuluki Templar who would occasionally read passages out of a book written during the Copper War but that was the last time I was ever in a Read/Write situation.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.