Author Topic: Communism for Kids  (Read 6113 times)

Sayyadina

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2017, 12:32:24 PM »
Right wingers need more safe spaces from books that make them uncomfortable.
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Patuk

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2017, 01:32:59 PM »
I somewhat regret having removed my stalinist avatar now
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2017, 07:38:53 PM »
Looong day at work. My body hurts, and I am irritable. Excuse me if I come off as rude in my reply.

You should probably actually read the ideas behind it before just spewing things out.  In communist -principle-, your labor is directed, not stolen.  You maintain professions and have it retooled to benefit the whole of society.  Supply and demand still exists, it's just monitored and tweaked by the state to maintain the highest standard of living for the maximum amount of people.  This has never been carried out successfully (though mormons in early Utah actually did a pretty damn good job of it).  The purpose is more to eliminate social castes/classes than equalize pay (edit:  To clarify, wealth redistribution shouldn't exist, because the purpose of wealth is supposed to be obsolete in a well-functioning system where everyone benefits from all production and trade).  Likewise, the idea is for the arts to flourish, since there's no such thing as 'the struggling artist'.

I call bullshit. Marx's Communist Manifesto advocated the abolition of all personal property and land for the good of the collective. THIS IS THEFT. THIS IS THE FRUIT OF MY LABOR. The fruit of my labor does not belong to anyone but me. I own my body and anything my body produces.
Yes, Mormons did it right. Communism works in homogeneous tribes, this is already established.
The United States of America is not a homogeneous nation. We have many different religions and cultures among us. They all think and behave differently. We are not all equal.
Regarding "the struggling artist" being a thing of the past.... NO. If you are a shit artist, you should struggle. If you produce art that other people are willing to pay for, you succeed, and do not struggle. This is capitalism.

Capitalism itself has inherent flaws and proneness to corruption/manipulation.  If you believe we have a well-functioning capitalism in the United States, you should actually read The Wealth of Nations.  Ya know.  The book by Adam Smith that describes it.  We've actually deviated pretty far from it, and it's not due to regulation, it's due to incentives for resisting the open flow of currency.  A true capitalism depends on the same drive we have to push into the life of luxury, but makes the general assumption that most will fall short but not devastatingly so.  Our current state has shifted away from production and into services that have to provide for a lot of people, allowing for amenities but also allowing for vast exploitation of the working class.  We've enjoyed a lot of success due to government spending, i.e. the government directing production and research via grants and contracts.  That's not a capitalist behavior, but it's working to our benefit.

Yes, our nation has shifted FAAR from the capitalist drive for success and happiness which pushes production and innovation forward. THIS IS A BAD THING. You wonder why college tuition is so expensive? The government started subsidizing it, so the colleges raised the price because they knew they could. Rinse, repeat. If the cost of tuition was NATURALLY too high, not enough people would pay for college, and the price would lower. Socialist policies have inflated college tuition. Despite this blatant progression, people are now begging the government to step in AGAIN, but this time, just make tuition free. Free shit for everyone. Free college. Free food. Free housing. Nobody wants to earn their way, they just want to suckle at the government's tit like a helpless babe.

THIS is the reason why I am so opposed to the book being directed at impressionable children. If our whole country turns into these "Gimme gimme gimme" bernie-bros and career welfare households, we are fucked.

I think capitalism is probably the greatest innovation that humanity has come up with, to date, because it rewards incentives towards individual gain which resonates with people -as they were-.  If the majority of the populace becomes more in tune with thinking of the whole, then it becomes more and more dysfunctional, as there are less people engaging in the motivations it depends on.  Really, it comes down to whether or not you trust the private sector's (and common citizen's) desire for personal gain to be more trustworthy than the state's responsibility to provide for people, and those will vary drastically with people's experiences and perceptions. (edit here: I should note that I don't support 'pushes' for socialism/communism, but I do recognize that there will be a slide in that direction as more and more people inevitably 'fall off the bottom rung' of a dysfunctional capitalism; at some point or another, there will be a change in thought as efficiency becomes the determining factor of profit.  Automation makes sense.  So does cutting down the fat on the workforce.  Entrepreneurship, the arts, and cultural endeavors all spring out of this, as long as they are taken care of during that time, which falls on either the state, the populace, or wealthy patrons.  People need to realize that historically speaking, some of the biggest leaps in our capabilities were not born from monetary incentive, but idle hands that were allowed to pursue their interests rather than someone else's.)
You contend that Americans are no longer driven by self-interest? Again, I call bullshit. Quite the opposite. Those fighting for socialism and communism are doing so ONLY for self-interest. They want free shit for less work. They have learned, from a lifetime of getting hand-outs, that if they scream hard enough, they get what they want. They know the government will feed them if they are hungry, so why not push for more? Why not free housing? Why not free college? Why not free everything?
This is not for the good of the collective. This is all about people being both lazy AND greedy. This cannot survive in a pure capitalist society.

So really, I'm kinda meh on your distaste for the book.  People being more aware of alternatives really ain't bothering me none.  I'm pro-education in all forms, so long as you can filter through the propoganda on both sides and learn how to investigate.

"SO LONG AS YOU CAN FILTER THROUGH THE PROPAGANDA ON BOTH SIDES AND LEARN HOW TO INVESTIGATE."
Children.... the people at which this book is directed... Can not filter propaganda from legitimate information.

Side note:  You brought up Stalin, because he was an absolute travesty.  I'm not sure you're aware of how distasteful he was to the proponents of socialism/communism at the time, and how hard Lenin actually worked in his final years to try to prevent him from coming to power.  Using him as the poster child actually equivocates to using Mussolini as a poster child for capitalism, because you again seem to be mixed up: Fascist states are capitalist dictatorships.

Yeah. Stalin was not a true communist. This is a fallacy, because he was a communist. The no true scotsman fallacy is the last refuge of those refusing to admit faults in their argument. I am not referring to you; I am referring to the proponents of socialism/communism who condemn "Stalin's version" of communism.

"fascist states are capitalist dictatorships"

This is bonkers, because Mussolini himself said his solution for "supercapitalism" was to fuse socialism and nationalism. Learned these ideals from a french marxist, iirc. 
edited to add: Didn't Mussolini also take control of all production in Italy?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 08:06:21 PM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2017, 07:56:07 PM »
Quote
It will take a few moments, so I'll reply to you after work. I clock in at 5:00, I clock out at 18:00-19:00.

It should be noted that socialism/communism is kinda hard to really talk about because of how many versions there are of them.  They tend to be talked about more in philosophy than economics despite being economic platforms because they're more of a paradigm/perspective shift than something you're supposed to 'implement', due to their requiring everyone to have a mindset for it to work (much the same way capitalism depends on you to be self-interested over group-interested, something that's only been overcome in the past by group hardship and tribe mentalities).

Marx himself once said he was not a marxist, because the marxist movement was a political one and he wasn't into politics.  But Hegel's early work kind of started the flame of the idea, and can be summed up here with neato sound effects.



I agree. It is nearly impossible to discuss the economics of socialism/communism without delving into discussions of Marxist ideologies; this is especially true because the main arguments for socialism/capitalism are pleas of feelings and compassion for the collective.



But... The Nazis were as socialist as North Korea is a Democratic Republic.

They weren't.

Facsism is on the other side of the political spectrum. Nazis hated communism.

Edit: Clearly, this is what I was replying to:

We should also consider the deaths that capitalism has been directly or indirectly responsible for if we're going that route.

Go for it. Put the death-toll from Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and many others, in addition to all of the european deaths found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

next to the evil capitalist deaths.

I know to which post you were referring. I was informing you that that post did not include only communists, nor did it intend to.

You contend that the Nazis were not socialist.... You could either mean by their own opinion or in practice.
Well, they clearly believed themselves to be, as they were called Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the National Socialist German Worker's Party.

Now.. In practice... Socialist economies are those in which the Government controls the means of production. This was the case in the Third Reich.

So... Why were they not socialist, again?

Or maybe you are saying they weren't -true- socialists.


Right wingers need more safe spaces from books that make them uncomfortable.
 
Right wingers, as a rule, do not need safe spaces, as they were invented by the literal antithesis of 'right-wingers.'

Now, if you are saying that I am right wing.... Eh. Not really. Libertarians used to stand along-side liberals on the majority of issues. Even Liberal and Libertarian share the root Liber, meaning free. I find it bizarre that because I want more freedom for myself and my family, I am suddenly a "right-winger."
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

HavokBlue

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2017, 08:04:19 PM »
"Socialist economies are those in which the Government controls the means of production."

that's not really what socialism means, especially in the context of the 21st century
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2017, 08:10:39 PM »
"Socialist economies are those in which the Government controls the means of production."

that's not really what socialism means, especially in the context of the 21st century

Aka your bernie-bros or professors told you how -real- socialism works.

Definition of socialism
1
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a :  a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
:  a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Sayyadina

  • Posts: 335
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2017, 08:43:52 PM »
I find it bizarre that because I want more freedom for myself and my family, I am suddenly a "right-winger."

Plenty of freedom for you and your family in Somalia where you can be rid of the crushing oppression that you feel because of taxes for:
...welfare, wic, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, subsidized EVERYTHING. We are taxed when we earn money. We are taxed when we spend money. We are taxed for land that WE OWN.
Not only that, we don't have a damned say on where this money is spent.

You can also Go Galt in wide swaths of Afghanistan or Yemen, or many other places. No "socialistic" strong central governments there to impede your freedom to be untaxed.
“No more should you doubt this, my prince – my sisters and I shall not wait ten-and-seven years for our vengeance.”

--Lady Nymeria Sand, A Feast for Crows

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5868
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 03:29:32 AM »
Quote
"Socialist economies are those in which the Government controls the means of production."

that's not really what socialism means, especially in the context of the 21st century

Quote
Definition of socialism
1
:  any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a :  a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
:  a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

I think what Havok is referring to is practical use of the word in modern day society, which is less rigid into the 'actual' definition of it and more about how people like socialized -policies- but not an all out socialism.  It's kinda what I was talking about with how hard it was to talk about the thing, because it's sprouted off in so many directions and interpretations by different people.

PM'd you the rest, cuz it's an essay. :P
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Melkor

  • Posts: 759
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2017, 03:44:26 AM »
I find it bizarre that because I want more freedom for myself and my family, I am suddenly a "right-winger."

Plenty of freedom for you and your family in Somalia where you can be rid of the crushing oppression that you feel because of taxes for:
...welfare, wic, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, subsidized EVERYTHING. We are taxed when we earn money. We are taxed when we spend money. We are taxed for land that WE OWN.
Not only that, we don't have a damned say on where this money is spent.

You can also Go Galt in wide swaths of Afghanistan or Yemen, or many other places. No "socialistic" strong central governments there to impede your freedom to be untaxed.


"You dont want Socialism?!? Go live in Africa or the Middle East, psycho!


Seriously? That is your best argument? Sad. ;)

I never said that I wish to be COMPLETELY untaxed, however, if you look at the federal budget... Jesus christ there is a lot of fat to trim, especially in entitlements and subsidies.



I think what Havok is referring to is practical use of the word in modern day society, which is less rigid into the 'actual' definition of it and more about how people like socialized -policies- but not an all out socialism.  It's kinda what I was talking about with how hard it was to talk about the thing, because it's sprouted off in so many directions and interpretations by different people.

PM'd you the rest, cuz it's an essay. :P



My inbox is empty? You might want to resend it.

Regarding how, nowadays, everyone has a different opinion on how Socialism and Communism SHOULD work.

This is the great arrogance and immaturity of leftists when it comes to Marxist policies. "It is a great idea, if only I were in charge, and they did it MY way."

"If I were the dictator in a marxist society, everything would be perfect.

This is the same pitfall that EVERY dictator falls into. The arrogance is staggering. Nobody learns from other's mistakes.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 03:53:48 AM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2017, 03:54:14 AM »
This is the same pitfall that every capitalist falls into.  The arrogance is staggering.  Nobody learns from other's mistakes.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2017, 03:55:19 AM »
@armaddict

Just received your message. Again, I'll respond to you after my 14 hour shift.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2017, 03:56:53 AM »
ITT:  the dude who works a 14 hour shift swears his life is his own.  ::)
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2017, 03:57:21 AM »
This is the same pitfall that every capitalist falls into.  The arrogance is staggering.  Nobody learns from other's mistakes.

What is? You should explain yourself more clearly, unless you are just throwing blind haymakers in your triggered state.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Melkor

  • Posts: 759
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2017, 03:59:51 AM »
ITT:  the dude who works a 14 hour shift swears his life is his own.  ::)

Leftist strategy 101: When losing an argument, attack opponent's character.

I have 4 days off every week, and make enough working 3 days a week to pay my mortgage, all my bills, and support myself, my woman, and 3 pets.

Fuck-yeah, capitalism.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9366
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2017, 04:08:17 AM »
petite bourgeoisie confirmed
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I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Armaddict

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2017, 04:10:56 AM »
Quote
"If I were the dictator in a marxist society, everything would be perfect.

This is the same pitfall that EVERY dictator falls into. The arrogance is staggering. Nobody learns from other's mistakes.

To be fair, though, this is like the mantra of every political and economic movement and party that has ever existed.

Quote
If you are a shit artist, you should struggle. If you produce art that other people are willing to pay for, you succeed, and do not struggle. This is capitalism.

I forgot to address this in the essay.  The simple question is: Are you saying that only shit artists, writers, philosophers, poets, musicians, etc. have struggled under capitalist regimes?  That the free-market and the ability to be an entrepreneur is the single worthy metric of value within a well-functioning society?  As I said in the previous post, there has been a lot of innovation in all areas that were possible only because of a state of subsistence being reached at the whim of others even without a market demand on their work.  Isaac Newton only did his work because he inherited money, enabling him, and he was a very unlikely candidate to make the progress he did as an uneducated man; he found himself with sudden freedom to investigate things he was interested in, and learn them.

The relation between production and value is a great way to keep labor constant, but as a sole metric, is just as capable of stymieing talent as it is of fostering it.  I find the argument that if people had the choice to produce less for someone else and still survive, that they'd all turn into worthless couch potatoes, to be one based on a relatively small percentage of people who have no interests they'd like to pursue that don't turn a profit. 

Edit:   ::)  This topic never stays civil.  Everyone always insists everyone else must be malicious or stupid to have different approaches, even though they're all collectively trying to solve the same problem.  Also...it's kinda ironic that this is all based around a book from an MIT website.  Heh.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 04:14:25 AM by Armaddict »
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Synthesis

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2017, 04:22:13 AM »
It's amusing that you think achieving the basics is #winning.

This is what you call false consciousness, bro.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2017, 04:25:56 AM »
It's amusing that you think achieving the basics is #winning.

This is what you call false consciousness, bro.
Owning 2000sqft of home on 5 acres of land is a great start for me. I enjoy my hunting, and my gardening.
Do you mean to attack my standard of happiness? Are you really that devoid of any meritorious argument that you stoop to saying what makes a man happy is "False consciousness?"

To that, I say go fuck yourself.


petite bourgeoisie confirmed

I can taste your Jelly from here. Though, it is far saltier than I prefer.

You have the next 14 hours and 34 minutes to think of a cogent argument, like our good man Armaddict has; or exist knowing that you have no worthwhile thoughts to contribute to an adult conversation.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9366
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2017, 04:37:10 AM »
exhibit A
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Riev

  • Posts: 4566
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2017, 10:09:49 AM »
In the words of a rival of IWillDominate on Twitch.TV

"Bitch I'm 6'3" and I row for UC Davis. I don't have to deal with your shit".
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boog

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2017, 10:45:57 AM »
I never said that I wish to be COMPLETELY untaxed, however, if you look at the federal budget... Jesus christ there is a lot of fat to trim, especially in entitlements and subsidies.

Yes. Corporations receive HUGE subsidies that need to be cut. They can either keep their corporations here, or they can fuck off. Capitalism has nothing to do with giving money to corporations who pay their workers shit and use them until they're dried up husks ... that is, until it does.

I'm far more inclined to give a struggling family food stamps than to be handing out corporate tax breaks to companies who do a lot of business overseas or, again, pay their workers shit/don't give decent benefits/abuse laws and loopholes to get a whole lot of moola:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
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Riev

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2017, 11:23:34 AM »
Often I hear Republicans state that they want tax breaks for corporations, so these large wealthy entities can assist in caring for the rest of the country, trickle down, etc etc.

Isn't the purpose of a Federal Government to be that AS A GOVERNMENT it is able to care for and protect all of its legal citizens? Isn't a wealthy corporation doing well enough and doesn't NEED federal care to take care of themselves? In fact isn't that a huge rift between D and R these days? Republicans want independent citizens to take care of the working classes (instead of the states, which is how it USED to be), whereas the Democrats feel that the Federal Government should have large programs that use all our tax dollars to try and give EVERYONE a leg up?

Considering the OP... where is your vitriol coming from? The fact that its from MIT Press? They didn't write it, they translated it from someone else. Did you read the synopsis? It doesn't seem like its corrupting children, or Stalinist communist propaganda. It actually seems to describe that "true communism isn't as easy as it seems".

So I guess my question is, again: What got up your butt about how this is so terrible? Is it that the title says "for kids"? Are you anti-Communism regardless of the medium? What is it?


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whitt

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2017, 12:01:42 PM »
Isn't the purpose of a Federal Government to be that AS A GOVERNMENT it is able to care for and protect all of its legal citizens?

I think, the basis for pushback against this thinking runs along these lines:
1) People should take care of their fellow people who can not take care of themselves because that is the good and right thing to do.
2) People will not do this because they are selfish and greedy.  So what we need to do is take money from People and put that in a pot of money specifically to care for the people that can't take care of themselves.
3) In charge of this pot of money, we will put... people.  Who will suddenly stop being selfish and greedy because they have been labeled "Government Employees".

Get folks over the hump of how taking money from them and piling it into a bureaucracy run by corrupt, self-serving, career politicians and you might have a start to a conversation where folks would accept the definition of government you've described.

Isn't a wealthy corporation doing well enough and doesn't NEED federal care to take care of themselves?

There is no "well enough" in the business world.  There is only, how can we do better.  I'm afraid the real rift between the Rs and Ds (as you put it) is emotion vs math.  Yes, it would be wonderful if everyone made enough money to "live comfortably" and magically inflation didn't rise to cover the sudden influx of new income courtesy of supply v. demand, but the math of economics doesn't work that way.

In short, if you could get twice the house (brand new and custom built) for half the money in city A vs city B and city A was willing to pay you to move and guarantee you employment... are you really going to stay in city B because that's where you grew up?  Probably not.

So I guess my question is, again: What got up your butt about how this is so terrible? Is it that the title says "for kids"? Are you anti-Communism regardless of the medium? What is it?

Suppose this was "Creationism for Kids"  and I think you'll immediately feel the level of revulsion that capitalist feel about target communist ideology at children.

To be fair, I agree that in small, homogenous groupings communism can work.  However, it doesn't scale.
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Riev

  • Posts: 4566
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2017, 12:21:52 PM »
Tongue in cheek, I think the Bible is Creationism for Kids, or at least Sunday School is.

I suppose if "Creationism for Kids" was put out by, I don't know, some legitimate non-religious publisher, it might be kind of irky? I think Creationism is foolish and requires too much faith, but I don't begrudge those who believe in it, nor someone writing a book aimed at kids to teach them it exists. Guess what? Don't buy the goddamned book, Capitalists! The market will correct and the book will fall out of print for not being business-savvy enough to make it in a strong market!

Everything else you said, Whitt, totally on point. Just putting this here to say thank you for responding and being informative about it. If I could upvote, I would.

Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9366
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »
Since we just -can't- control those terrible, terrible government employees, we should just skip the bureaucracy and put all wealth directly into the hands of the corrupt and self-serving.  That should fix things right up.   ::)
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.