Author Topic: Communism for Kids  (Read 6695 times)

Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2017, 01:34:09 PM »
I agree that there is no socialist policy regarding an unarmed populace, however, does it not always turn out that way?

I think firearm prohibition is insane, because if the law forbids ownership of firearms, only criminals who disobey laws will have firearms...

I think this is one subject where you and I may have common ground, synth.
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Synthesis

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2017, 01:54:41 PM »
Gun control has "turned out that way" for virtually every modern society, irrespective of the general theoretical political or economic framework it tends to operate within.  Eventually, the United States will get around to it.  Note that the fairly strict gun control regimes in CA and NY have not been ruled to be unconstitutional.  The 2nd Amendment has certainly stalled things quite a bit, but ultimately it will be rendered toothless.

The reason is pretty simple, politically.  A firearm gives you--personally, individually--power.  It can be the power to do good or to do evil, but ultimately the state apparatus wants that power.  And this, again, is irrespective of capitalism vs. socialism or democracy vs. authoritarianism.  Capitalists will do it to protect themselves from the masses.  Socialists will do it to protect the masses from each other.  Democracies will do it to protect themselves from each other.  Authoritarians will do it to protect themselves from the masses.

Using gun control as a plank in your anti-communist or pro-capitalist or anti-authoritarian platform is silly.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2017, 02:27:53 PM »
Read what I said, buddy.

Quote
It stands to mention, that with every push to the left, Australia and Canada both are losing their personal freedoms. Rights regarding free speech and bearing arms come to mind, first.

That was the whole thought. You attributed it to anti-communist, pro-capitalist platforms.

However, it would absolutely be relevant to an anti-authoritarian platform.
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Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2017, 02:35:04 PM »
You don't seem to understand how implication works.

"Push to the left" means "toward socialism."

Saying X happens with a push to the left, and x is bad, is an anti-socialist argument.

Your quoted sentence is, in fact, an anti-socialist sentiment, and it clearly is a plank in your overall anti-socialist argument.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2017, 02:44:14 PM »
I see what you are saying. I was thinking more along the lines of  sociological leftism, which would denote socialist  policies, but not necessarily a socialist economy. This was where I misunderstood you. I was thinking you were speaking of socialist economics, exclusively.
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whitt

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2017, 02:56:40 PM »
I agree that there is no socialist policy regarding an unarmed populace, however, does it not always turn out that way?

I'd vote that a move towards an unarmed populace is more the hallmark of a dictatorship and despotism than indicative of an economic system.

Do dictators almost without exception move towards governmental control of resources?  Certainly.
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Sayyadina

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2017, 04:52:46 PM »
<edited to add> It stands to mention, that with every push to the left, Australia and Canada both are losing their personal freedoms. Rights regarding free speech and bearing arms come to mind, first.

Jim Jeffries has a pretty funny (and very very NSFW) take on freedom in Australia and Canada versus the US.

Enjoy!


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BadSkeelz

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2017, 06:24:17 PM »
I'd like to propose a corollary to the "Governments trying to take your rights and guns (but especially guns) are on a dictatorial path" argument:

If you declare something while holding a gun in front of a flag, you're probably kind of nuts. Case in point: ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Sheri Few
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2017, 07:09:01 PM »
Funny video. I am in agreement with the comedian on everything. It should be mentioned, though, that Canada and Straya are steadily losing their freedom of speech in recent years, which is a shame. The US does need to stop imprisoning drug users, for sure, legalize and regulate cannabis and prostitution, etc.

I'd like to propose a corollary to the "Governments trying to take your rights and guns (but especially guns) are on a dictatorial path" argument:

If you declare something while holding a gun in front of a flag, you're probably kind of nuts. Case in point: ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Sheri Few

Lol yeah, Sheri Few is nuts, but I think it is unfair to list her as a third example of wackos after ISIS and Al-Qaeda, yeah?
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2017, 07:12:08 PM »
I didn't give her a gun and a flag to stand in front of.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2017, 07:16:20 PM »
Being a little nuts, posing in front of a flag with a rifle to pander to 'Mericans doesnt equate to fighting to exterminate millions of people.


So, it seems right-wing news outlets are reporting that Maduro is arming loyalist citizens with rifles, so in his unarmed populace, the only people with firearms are those which support his regime. Waiting for other news outlets to corroborate this info before taking it as fact.
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Yam

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2017, 08:48:04 PM »
I'd like to propose a corollary to the "Governments trying to take your rights and guns (but especially guns) are on a dictatorial path" argument:

If you declare something while holding a gun in front of a flag, you're probably kind of nuts. Case in point: ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Sheri Few

You better not be talking shit about George C. Scott

BadSkeelz

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2017, 08:49:58 PM »
I don't think you can argue that Patton (either the person or the character Mr. Scott was portraying) wasn't "kind of nuts."

Also I find ISIS policy platform a lot more coherent within its own philosophical framework than the GOP's, so I don't mind including Sheri and ISIS (and Paton) in the same set.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:51:35 PM by BadSkeelz »
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #188 on: April 22, 2017, 04:13:27 AM »
I was asked by Jingo to post this in the "most relevant thread" and this seems to be the place

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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2017, 08:53:28 AM »
The true irony is that the train goes in circles, forever.
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Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Feco

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #190 on: April 24, 2017, 09:30:51 AM »
I try to avoid criticizing books I haven't read. I feel there is a high chance I will look foolish doing so.

I would tend to agree. I just couldnt bring myself to pay even 10 dollars for this book, even for the purpose of criticizing it.

Australia, Canada, Sweeden. These are all countries many americans would say have socialist ideologies/policies. Besides the aboriginals which Australia worked to systematically wipe out (how did Canada treat it's indigenous?) we haven't snuffed out that many lives compared to America. Furthermore, Australia was America's ally against those dictatorships that you allude to in your post. Note that communism and democracy are not opposed. Communism is opposed to capitalism and democracy is opposed to dictatorships.

Yes, you all do have some socialist policies, but you still have capitalist economies. I do believe these socialist policies will be to your great detriment.
First off, until very recently, Sweden was a homogeneous population, rather isolated in northern Europe. I guarantee you, that with the influx of new cultures into their population, their socialist policies go down the drain. Give it a year or two.
Now, as far as lives killed... I suppose not, but these nations are not pushing strict, staunch marxist policies across the board, which they would force their people to adhere to at the barrel of a firearm.


I dont remember comparing communism and democracy. Did I?

If I did, I would point out how many marxist dictatorships have existed, vs how many capitalist dictatorships have existed... <_<

<edited to add> It stands to mention, that with every push to the left, Australia and Canada both are losing their personal freedoms. Rights regarding free speech and bearing arms come to mind, first.

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Is there a book that you could possibly read to tell the difference?

I see what you are saying. I was thinking more along the lines of  sociological leftism, which would denote socialist  policies, but not necessarily a socialist economy. This was where I misunderstood you. I was thinking you were speaking of socialist economics, exclusively.

I think you're deeply confused about terms like "marxism," "communism," and "socialism."  That said, I have no idea what you think they mean, so I don't even know where to start.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 09:32:34 AM by Feco »
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Riev

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #191 on: April 24, 2017, 04:27:25 PM »
As a self-described Capitalist, I think Melkor's intention in naming those political ideologies is in their effect on the markets and economy. As stated in numerous points in this "lets all battle Melkor's contentions" thread, his issues with things like Marxism and Communism is that they are not Capitalism, are anti-American, and that their effect on the economy is one that emphasizes group value for group work.

Not so much "all commies are fascists" but more "Communism shouldn't work because I believe in Individualism, and what I earn should be mine and mine alone". Not necessarily a NEGATIVE view, just different from some, who are as extremely individualist.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #192 on: April 24, 2017, 07:29:19 PM »
@ feco I have addressed literal dictionary-definitions of the subjects in question... And am told thats not real <insert subject here>. I have addressed strictly economic principals of socialism and communism, then have been criticized on the social aspects. I have criticized social marxism, then been criticized on economics, and that "Thats not real <X>.

Doesn't seem like I'm the one who is confused, bud.


@ Riev. Thanks for being reasonable, and understanding. I'd buy you a beer.
All that is gold does not glitter,
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The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #193 on: April 25, 2017, 11:03:24 AM »
haha thanks, Melkor. I just know that you have your ideologies, are hard stuck in them, and there are just fundamental differences that you aren't likely to budge on.

I kind of boil it down to the individualism. Its certainly part of what America was built on, that an individuals work is more important than the groups work. It isn't the only way to be, and other cultures actually specifically focus more on what your contribution brings to the group without delving into Communism. I totally understand WHERE you're coming from, my argument is just that a government has certain responsibilities and that, unfortunately, results in an individual's gains being appropriated to those who aren't as capable.

Fiscally, I'm pretty conservative. I think there are a LOT of programs the government oversees that it really doesn't need to, and adds a lot of bloat that could (and should) be reduced. However, that doesn't mean I don't believe in the appropriation of a portion of wealth to support the lower class. Communism doesn't work, but in small groups it may be able to. Barter system, job for job, maybe among departments of small organizations?
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Zoltan

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #194 on: April 25, 2017, 01:36:23 PM »
I don't have time to delve deeply into this now, but consider this sort of idea. Less time participating in soul-crushing labor simply for survival means more time developing individuality. Many jobs, prestigious or not, strongly enforce conformity. A more rational allocation of production and resources could reduce the pressure on individuals to conform.

I don't consider the desire for individualism to be an argument in favor of capitalism (at least not in the past century or so). We're all pressured to readily accept authority first in school and then in the work place.

My support for progressive causes is because I want people to be individuals, all over the world. Individual thought is bad for business and discouraged. There are exceptions in capitalism (but-but I'm paid to develop innovative apps!!!), but those rare exceptions distract from the majority of humanity's toil to "keep the lights on".

I want more freedom for more people to pursue their interests because it will ultimately make my life better in various ways.
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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #195 on: April 25, 2017, 02:49:16 PM »
haha thanks, Melkor. I just know that you have your ideologies, are hard stuck in them, and there are just fundamental differences that you aren't likely to budge on.

I kind of boil it down to the individualism. Its certainly part of what America was built on, that an individuals work is more important than the groups work. It isn't the only way to be, and other cultures actually specifically focus more on what your contribution brings to the group without delving into Communism. I totally understand WHERE you're coming from, my argument is just that a government has certain responsibilities and that, unfortunately, results in an individual's gains being appropriated to those who aren't as capable.

Fiscally, I'm pretty conservative. I think there are a LOT of programs the government oversees that it really doesn't need to, and adds a lot of bloat that could (and should) be reduced. However, that doesn't mean I don't believe in the appropriation of a portion of wealth to support the lower class. Communism doesn't work, but in small groups it may be able to. Barter system, job for job, maybe among departments of small organizations?

I understand using tax-dollars to care for severely disabled Americans, as I have said many times. I understand using tax-dollars to open job-centers who helped people who are not as capable as others find employment.
I am not okay with rewarding single-motherhood while penalizing nuclear families. I am not okay with people who make a career out of exploiting unemployment and disability benefits.  You get it. I love and care for Americans who need help... not those who just want help so they can have an easier life.
I have also repeatedly stated that marxist policies can work in homogeneous nations or small groups; almost every church will help out their own with pooled resources if they have fallen on hard times. The barter system is alive an well today. In september or october, I will bring a few bags of avocados from my old property down south and trade them for a few bags of persimmons to my friend who owns a persimmon orchard. You can trade stuff at flea-markets quite easily. People in the trades exchange jobs for jobs all the time. I used to do home-repairs for a mechanic friend of mine to fix shit on my POS car. I consider the barter system to be the most basic entity of capitalism, I give you this in exchange for that. That being said, how can a person who works in data processing, human resources, asset protection, etc. be of any value to a mechanic, a plumber, a carpenter... lol. These are abstract jobs with no use except to a corporation, offering services to tangible jobs with service applicable to everybody. This is why we have money. Not everybody's goods or services are desired by everybody.

I don't have time to delve deeply into this now, but consider this sort of idea. Less time participating in soul-crushing labor simply for survival means more time developing individuality. Many jobs, prestigious or not, strongly enforce conformity. A more rational allocation of production and resources could reduce the pressure on individuals to conform.

I don't consider the desire for individualism to be an argument in favor of capitalism (at least not in the past century or so). We're all pressured to readily accept authority first in school and then in the work place.

My support for progressive causes is because I want people to be individuals, all over the world. Individual thought is bad for business and discouraged. There are exceptions in capitalism (but-but I'm paid to develop innovative apps!!!), but those rare exceptions distract from the majority of humanity's toil to "keep the lights on".

I want more freedom for more people to pursue their interests because it will ultimately make my life better in various ways.

First, I'd like to remind you how insanely fragile the civilization we take for granted is. You rest easy, knowing if you take the day off, take the week off, hell, take the year off, the wheels keep turning. If 50% of the workforce in America called out for 1 week straight... Holy fuck. There would be chaos.

The private sector ALREADY has an insane maximization of efficiency and resources in order to maximize profits. What you are saying, is for owners of businesses, and their shareholders, to cut their profits so people can have more days off. Not to be rude, but this is silly, and childish.

Literally every job in the trades encourages individuality, in style, creativity, personality, and ethic.

Why does nearly every millennial think hard work is "soul-crushing?"
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

  • Posts: 4671
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #196 on: April 25, 2017, 03:25:44 PM »
Why does nearly every millennial think hard work is "soul-crushing?"

First off, I'd warn you to not lump "every" millennial, and also not to make assumptions about a tag that spans like 30 years. Somehow, I'M a millennial even though I wanted to be in the Pepsi Generation. :3

However, to answer your question, this is something coming up a lot more lately. Its not about it being "soul crushing", but millennials have it good. Honestly. Our parents made sure we never got hurt, or felt like we lost, and always made sure we won some sort of trophy. So, when it comes to work, we want to feel like our work matters.

Not in "I work for a non-profit company growing vertical gardens" matters, but more and more the younger workforce wants assurance that the job they are performing is useful to the organization they've chosen to join. Nobody wants to do work that someone else is already doing, and millennials especially don't want to feel like if they took off for a week, nobody would notice.

I also disagree that company owners should cut their profits specifically for days off. However, that's because I personally believe they can take those "cut profits" to examine how to make their company better to work for. Upgrade processes, allow creative time while at work, find ways to make working "better". If you need days off from work, and its not for appointments or for kid dance rehearsals, then your job SUCKS.
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Marc

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #197 on: April 25, 2017, 03:27:06 PM »
Since everyone is friends now, a conversation about listening to those you fundamentally don't agree with. https://onbeing.org/programs/heather-mcghee-and-matt-kibbe-repairing-the-breach/

When is using force okay?  When someone refuses to pay taxes to fund abortion?  To fund welfare?  To fund schools?  To fund wars?  To fund Tuskegee experiments or terminator seeds?  To fund prisons?

If something is legal, is it morally right?  Is following the law justification enough?  Is Trump not releasing his tax returns unethical?  Is killing civilians with missiles unethical?  If someone can't afford a lawyer do they not deserve legal defense?  Is it okay to take Peter's money to pay for Paul's lawyer?

Are there universal ethics?  Are there things that are always right or always wrong?

When does coercion trump conversion?  When did we decide forcing people to change was better than showing them a better way?

If we all are subject to a social contract, whom decides what is written, who is subject or how the contract will be enforced?

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boog

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #198 on: April 25, 2017, 03:38:51 PM »
When I visit your farm someday, Marc, I'm gonna punch you in the arm for these questions. ;)

I took a Philosophy class in school and I hated it because of questions like those! <3

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Melkor

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Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #199 on: April 25, 2017, 03:56:18 PM »
Why does nearly every millennial think hard work is "soul-crushing?"

First off, I'd warn you to not lump "every" millennial, and also not to make assumptions about a tag that spans like 30 years. Somehow, I'M a millennial even though I wanted to be in the Pepsi Generation. :3
Haay now, I said /nearly/ every. After all, I am technically a millennial, too. 1991.
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However, to answer your question, this is something coming up a lot more lately. Its not about it being "soul crushing", but millennials have it good. Honestly. Our parents made sure we never got hurt, or felt like we lost, and always made sure we won some sort of trophy. So, when it comes to work, we want to feel like our work matters.
You were almost there. Teddy Roosevelt had a belief that a strenuous life fosters strength and character. i would agree. Therefore, most millennials who had soft, easy lives never had an opportunity to foster strength or character.

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Not in "I work for a non-profit company growing vertical gardens" matters, but more and more the younger workforce wants assurance that the job they are performing is useful to the organization they've chosen to join. Nobody wants to do work that someone else is already doing, and millennials especially don't want to feel like if they took off for a week, nobody would notice.
I think that is because they want to think they are significant despite doing insignificant work. If you are a minimum-wage stocker at a wal-mart... Sorry, you're not significant, yet. Keep building your skills, your ethic, and your stature until you are significant. If everyone is significant, then nobody is. Not everybody is a loser>MMA Prodigy>Humanitarian by age 24 like Justin Wren (Awesome guy. Look him up)
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I also disagree that company owners should cut their profits specifically for days off. However, that's because I personally believe they can take those "cut profits" to examine how to make their company better to work for. Upgrade processes, allow creative time while at work, find ways to make working "better". If you need days off from work, and its not for appointments or for kid dance rehearsals, then your job SUCKS.
Dude, if you are paid anything over minimum wage, every drop of productivity is squeezed out of you. I work in a logistics warehouse, making good money with benefits. My actions are measured by the second. Hard workers are fired around me left and right because their bodies are not able to meet productivity standards; maybe they are too short. maybe they dont have the heart to push when their body is screaming STOP! During my interview, I had to take a Physical Assessment Test along with a room of 10 other dudes. Like 2 of them were hired, one quit after 3 weeks. one was fired after 4 months.
As far as "better to work for..." When every other option pays shit... the one paying the most is the best to work for, period. My company does a cook-out every few weeks... fish fry, wings, burgers and hot dogs, christmas meal, thanksgiving meal, etc.. but I would prefer no food and a couple hundred bucks on a check. It's all about the money.

@ marc
I'm gonna watch your video and respond in a little. I wanna get some carving done today.

I will hit up your questions, though.

When is using force okay?  When someone refuses to pay taxes to fund abortion?  To fund welfare?  To fund schools?  To fund wars?  To fund Tuskegee experiments or terminator seeds?  To fund prisons?
In self defense of one's person, family, friends, or community. The small government people like myself envision would have very few of those things funded.

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If something is legal, is it morally right?  Is following the law justification enough?  Is Trump not releasing his tax returns unethical?  Is killing civilians with missiles unethical?  If someone can't afford a lawyer do they not deserve legal defense?  Is it okay to take Peter's money to pay for Paul's lawyer?
Laws, OR SCIENCE, for that matter, do not denote morality. Many of the most horrific atrocities in history have been grounded in law or science. Morality is also not always logical, i.e. forgiving a murderer despite the growing hatred and rage inside of you.

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Are there universal ethics?  Are there things that are always right or always wrong?
No.

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When does coercion trump conversion?  When did we decide forcing people to change was better than showing them a better way?
When their actions are a threat to your life, your family's lives, your friend's lives, etc.
If there are a people who's sole mission is to kill you and all those you care for.... Time to coerce with that big stick you hope to never swing.

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If we all are subject to a social contract, whom decides what is written, who is subject or how the contract will be enforced?
Shared morals. There are sects of Jews in the diamond trade who have deals worth millions of dollars with no written contracts, because their shared morals denote trust and respect.

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heh.
Seriously. We do. This is why we have 3 branches of govt with checks and balances. I love watching the congressional oversight committee tear new assholes.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.