Author Topic: Communism for Kids  (Read 8463 times)

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2017, 03:59:52 PM »
You know, I wasn't even trying to change your opinion on the matter, but its clear that anything that might challenge you is so easily retorted. You're not discussing, you're preaching. You're holding court over your peers, except you don't believe them to be your peers, but rather your lessers.

You're not wrong, Melkor. Nothing you've said is WRONG, and I'm not being facetious. However, much of what you've said has been from a position of "I'm better than", and that makes you an arrogant person. Nothing we say will change it, and you're not in for a discussion. You don't like Communism. We get it. A book about it should be banned, or certainly not published by an AMERICAN company (that's right, I remember the OP). I guess that's on the few of us that keep responding, thinking your opinion over an objectively unknown book based on a foreign writer's essays could be swayed.

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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2017, 04:31:40 PM »
Technically, we are kind of deciding exactly that via politics.  The question really is whether you want to live in a society where your worth is measured by your work ethic--especially given that automation and globalization are rapidly devaluing the value of routine tasks and physical labor.

Ultimately, the question is:  what is the value of a human being, simply for being alive?  You should think very, very carefully about your answer to that question, because how you value others in large part determines how they will value you, when the shit hits the fan.

If your entire life was spent saying, "fuck all y'all, I got mine," "all y'all" might just decide that you ain't worth much at all--and certainly not more than that pile of loot you're sitting on.  It's all fine to be harsh on the poor when the prospect of them murdering you for your shit is pretty low, but I'll tell you what:  despite all your guns, it ain't gonna take more than about four or five desperate motherfuckers to render all your hard work and personal responsibility irrelevant.

Taxes are not spent to reward lazy motherfuckers for doing nothing.  Taxes are spent to pay those motherfuckers to keep them satisfied enough that the above scenario remains a far distant, purely theoretical concern.  Yes, taxes are a massive protection racket.  But listen, man...it's a far more civilized protection racket than anyone else has come up with, and you'd do well to calm down and appreciate that fact, because we're riding the crest of a wave of historic civility over here.

Damn. That started off with immense potential, then devolved into "If you take away entitlements and welfare, we who are not self-sufficient will kill you for your personal property."
You want my wealth? My property? My weapons? Molon Labe, motherfucker.

Nope, I don't want to contribute labor to something of no value to me in exploitative conditions. I work for myself now, and I'm LUCKY to be able to do so. I didn't bootstrap myself into this, the happiest period of my life. I did not get here alone. I'm certainly not maintaining this life alone. I would prefer to lower the role of circumstance and luck in peoples' life happiness if at all possible. We can do that by being smarter about production and distribution.
Dude, that is awesome that you are able to work for yourself! I experienced this satisfaction as a carpenter, but I was 5 years away from achieving journeyman carpenter status, and being able to apply for a subcontractor's license. When work dried up one summer a few years back, I turned to a high-paying job in logistics. It pays well, gives great benefits, and I have 4 days off every week.
My only question about your circumstance is, do you mean to say it took no effort on your part to achieve your current means of employment?

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At least you recognize that people aren't born into equal circumstances. So wealth is not an indicator of someone's character. After all, you can be born rich, poor, or whatever else. So why are you so gleeful about the punishment of the poor?
Of course people are not born equal. Most people born with a silver spoon up their ass are complete shitheads. I do not revel in punishment of the poor. I DO revel in the misery of the lazy. This IS a chip on my shoulder from all of the sweat and blood I have shed working to achieve a comfortable life from nothing. For instance, when I see bernie-bros crying about their student loan debt which they agreed to incur... Oh god, the schadenfreude is so great.
I dont, however, derive any pleasure from people who are hungry, especially children, who have no say in their circumstances until their mid teens. I would feed any hungry child at my doorstep, period.

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To the second point, if all the farmers stop working, we all get to become farmers or die. What is actually more valuable? There's a reason farming is so heavily subsidized.
Wrong. These subsidies should not exist. the true value of farming would be apparent without subsidies.

If it was not profitable to farm/ranch, farmers and ranchers woulds top producing, and there would be a temporary food shortage, at which time the price of food would skyrocket. local farmers, ranchers, and hunters would make a fuckton of money feeding their local communities, and the cities would be in crisis because of their unnatural environment. Once the value of food shot up, BOOM. It is suddenly profitable to be a farmer, again, and a true balance between supply and demand would be found.

The real question is.... How many people would be harmed undoing the damage caused by all of these subsidies in the first place, to realize a natural market, once more? I dont think it is worth it, unfortunately. But I CERTAINLY dont think the answer is more subsidies.


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I'm just puzzled on what contributing to posterity has to do with anything. Was I contributing to posterity by being a sysadmin? I was making the most money I ever had, but I don't think I was really contributing all that much to future generations.
In any case, you're just wrong. I like to do meaningful work, and I don't like to do meaningless work.
In a nation of hundreds of millions of people, there is value in simply keeping the wheels turning. Though I can understand what you mean by the difference between "meaningful" work and "meaningless" work... Though I think a more accurate term would be "Satisfying" and "Unsatisfying."
I loved building houses, decks, rooms, remodels, etc. It was extremely satisfying... But what was best for my family is that I go for the money, benefits, and schedule which was superior.

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So people with disabilities can just rot. Got it.
What? Hey, I think we have a misunderstanding. What I was saying is that /only/ people with debilitating disabilities should be cared/provided for, indefinitely. Not sure how that was mixed up. Maybe it was my fault. If the conversation does not continue, I'd at least appreciate for you to touch-base on this one point, because this was a genuine miscommunication between us.

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Look, some of us want to work toward a world with less losers. Speaking for myself, I'm not concerned with splitting hairs on how they got there. It's a waste of resources to dole out punishment in that manner. Let's bring the bottom up to something humane. What is your argument against no-one starving, against no-one being homeless, against no-one being barred from education?
What resources are wasted in "Doling out punishment?" I am not familiar with such a practice, except for regarding the prison system, which is in need of a massive reform.
You know a drowning man can kill someone trying to pull him to safety? It is wiser to throw them the means to save themselves.
I think the best thing to naturally raise the lower-class to a comfortable life is to remove certain taxes and regulations, allowing companies to bring production and industry back to the lower-class. Working people commit less crime, especially when their job is sufficient to provide for their families. Period.
That, and we need to encourage nuclear families. There are countless studies which prove the #1 factor in determining a child's success in life is whether they have one parent or two. By the way, no, I dont care if they have two fathers, two mothers, or one of each.

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Even if this were true, my concern extends to the entire planet and not solely geographical America. I keep getting the impression that the suffering inherent in the system is agreeable to you solely because you believe that the wicked must be punished. The wicked, of course, being those unwilling or unable to eat shit for their masters.
This is part of the marxist mentality that I find so detrimental to a successful life, allowing someone to climb from poverty. The idea that to be employed is to be a slave. How can a person be expected to work hard and succeed when they think their employer is evil?
It is true. Use the googles. Nobody dies from starvation within civilization of America. (Of course, I am sure some stranded campers/hikers/etc. may have succumbed to starvation or the elements in recent years.)
I will focus on Earth once America has its shit together. I will focus on America once Florida has its shit together. I will focus on Florida once my County has its shit together. I will focus on my county Once my city, my neighborhood, my family, and I have my shit together. it starts with me. I have not reached the point where I can ignore myself and my family in pursuit of saving the world.

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And you fear going back to the struggle yourself. I think that's a reasonable fear to have and I really can't blame you for it. Wealth redistribution is concerned with billionaires and millionaires, and the owners of the means of production. So probably not you. I posit that we should reduce or eliminate the struggle if at all possible. That would be a valuable contribution to posterity.

Struggle and hardship fosters strength; much like the incredible pressure and heat within the earth which turns masses of carbon into diamonds. To eliminate struggle is to foster a great weakness of the body and the spirit.
If for any reason I fell upon hard times and went back to square one (a shitty thought, for sure)... I know I would be out of it in a manner of a couple years, no question.

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And, hey, if resources aren't used in a blind pursuit of profit, we may even be able to maintain a survivable environment!

Nothing wrong with this, but people go about it in the wrong way (Marxism)
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2017, 04:55:24 PM »
You know, I wasn't even trying to change your opinion on the matter, but its clear that anything that might challenge you is so easily retorted. You're not discussing, you're preaching. You're holding court over your peers, except you don't believe them to be your peers, but rather your lessers.

You're not wrong, Melkor. Nothing you've said is WRONG, and I'm not being facetious. However, much of what you've said has been from a position of "I'm better than", and that makes you an arrogant person. Nothing we say will change it, and you're not in for a discussion. You don't like Communism. We get it. A book about it should be banned, or certainly not published by an AMERICAN company (that's right, I remember the OP). I guess that's on the few of us that keep responding, thinking your opinion over an objectively unknown book based on a foreign writer's essays could be swayed.

So, I read your post a few times, trying to let it sink in. I apologize for coming off as arrogant, first. I also apologize to anyone who I distressed with my opinions. In my defense, this is the way I speak with my friends, and family. Heated, opinionated discussions are something that I greatly enjoy. I especially enjoy speaking with people with whom I disagree. I am not down for the pure echo-chamber environment.

I guess my rigid stance comes from my clear life experiences. I am reminded of an argument I had with an acquaintance at work who lives by me about hunting. (lol... it is far less complicated a discussion) It went something like this:
Gator: (yes, his nickname is Gator.) Man, I am trying to get some bucks to come though my yard with doe estrus.
Me: I've never had luck with piss. I just mix a few pounds of salt and a few gallons of corn-syrup and pour it on the ground.
Gator: That doesn't work.
Me: Yes, it does. 90% of the deer I have bagged were lured with salt/sugar lure.
Gator: You're wrong.
Me: ................No. I am right. I am speaking from experience.

He didn't believe me, despite not trying it, for whatever reason.


Now, it does wound me to hear you say I do not consider you all my peers. I do.
I do not attack the individual. I attack ideas. (Synth is an exception.... But I think he/she had it coming).
I do not think I attacked any of those who spoke with me, I only vigorously defended my own ideas formed through my life experiences, and criticized those ideas I believed to be harmful to myself, my family, my community, you get it.
I guess my confidence in my own ideas and opinions is offensive to some. Sucks.

Regarding my OP... I did not advocate banning the book. Not once. my post was:
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Jesus fucking christ. The former Soviet Union would only have DREAMED of publishing this level of propaganda on US soil a few decades back.

Which I think is 100% true. Can you imagine if the soviets got MIT to publish this book in the 70's? Would they not be thrilled? After all, the cold-war was largely a culture war, on top of a war of deterrence.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8257
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2017, 04:57:11 PM »
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2017, 05:00:12 PM »
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By this argument, they shouldn't be taught America fuck yeah, religion, or any other thing at a young age either.  Exposure to information at a young age is a given.  Presenting it without a negative pretext allows for that generation to gauge it based off their development and exposure as equally as anything else they're exposed to, rather than only hearing about it in terms of a cold-war of ideologies where if they think it makes sense they're part of the evil of the world.

I agree! Children of young ages shouldn't be taught ANY ideologies... by anyone save for their parents. This is the right of a parent. You created a life, so long as you keep this life safe and healthy, it is your decision what values to instill in this person which is half you and half your spouse.

From our PM conversation.  Your distaste for the book is fine.  But you've just stated that parents are allowed to teach whatever they want, and in our market-oriented society, this book is also fine because it's appealing to the market of those parents who want to use it as a resource.  If it flunks, it fails, and if it is successful, then all your argument about how 'That's not how things are' in reply to my 'The requirement for it is a perspective shift' is a moot point.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2017, 05:04:42 PM »
@armaddict

Yes. Some parents will buy this for their children, and I wont lie, this distresses me. But it is their right.

However, my main issue, from the beginning, is that this book winds up in elementary schools.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9212
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2017, 05:06:43 PM »
Teach critical thinking skills and present multiple arguments.
Where have you buried the body, MeTekillot?

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2017, 05:08:36 PM »
@armaddict

Yes. Some parents will buy this for their children, and I wont lie, this distresses me. But it is their right.

However, my main issue, from the beginning, is that this book winds up in elementary schools.

Sounds like the average literature problem that parents will bring up and have the book removed from the curriculum, which they've done with numerous books all over, over the ages.  It has not been added to any federal or state-wide required curriculum.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8257
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2017, 05:09:45 PM »
Teach critical thinking skills and present multiple arguments.

wut r u gay?

In all honestly here's some real talk:

1) If your awesome economic system can be brought down by a children's book, it's probably not that awesome. If it is, then you got nothing to fear.

2) If the book isn't going to sell in Texas it isn't going to appear anywhere. Texan public schools order such a large share of the nation's textbooks (and presumably other School Library inclusions) that they have undue influence on what actually gets in to those text books. So as long as we have fat white God-ordained-to-be-well-off Christians protecting us on the school board I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
Teach critical thinking skills and present multiple arguments.

wut r u gay?

In all honestly here's some real talk:

1) If your awesome economic system can be brought down by a children's book, it's probably not that awesome. If it is, then you got nothing to fear.

2) If the book isn't going to sell in Texas it isn't going to appear anywhere. Texan public schools order such a large share of the nation's textbooks (and presumably other School Library inclusions) that they have undue influence on what actually gets in to those text books. So as long as we have fat white God-ordained-to-be-well-off Christians protecting us on the school board I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Skeels, you make great points which ease my mind. Seriously.

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Jesus fucking christ. The former Soviet Union would only have DREAMED of publishing this level of propaganda on US soil a few decades back.

Which I think is 100% true. Can you imagine if the soviets got MIT to publish this book in the 70's? Would they not be thrilled? After all, the cold-war was largely a culture war, on top of a war of deterrence.
Back to my OP...
Is this contention wrong?
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2017, 05:15:32 PM »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Sayyadina

  • Posts: 346
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2017, 05:33:25 PM »
Damn. That started off with immense potential, then devolved into "If you take away entitlements and welfare, we who are not self-sufficient will kill you for your personal property."
You want my wealth? My property? My weapons? Molon Labe, motherfucker.

This reminds me of my favorite part of the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus said that if someone smacks you on the cheek that you should brandish your firearm and tell them to come and get the other cheek, motherfucker.

It also reminds me of another influential writing of Western Civilization, namely the Cracked.com article I frequently cite on the GDB (italics in the original):

Quote from: Cracked.com
If you live in my part of the country, you'll hear hard-working, rural farmer types say, "I got my own piece of land, I grow my own food, all I want is to be left alone." All right, well tell me this, cowboy:

Let's say some mean, even richer guy, like a wealthy gangsta rapper, hired a bunch of armed thugs to come take your farm. What would you do? Your shotgun won't fend them off -- they have a hundred bigger shotguns. What will you do, call the cops? That is, other people, who will risk their lives while being paid with still other people's tax money, who will try these bad guys in a court funded by yet other people's tax money, under laws passed by legislators paid with other people's tax money? Whoa, slow down there, welfare queen!

But if none of that stuff existed, there would be nothing stopping Jay-Z from taking your farm. In other words, you don't "own" shit. The entire concept of owning anything, be it a hunk of land or a house or a fucking sandwich, exists purely because other people pay other armed men to protect it. Without society, all of your brave, individual talents and efforts won't buy you a bucket of farts.
“No more should you doubt this, my prince – my sisters and I shall not wait ten-and-seven years for our vengeance.”

--Lady Nymeria Sand, A Feast for Crows

Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2017, 05:56:02 PM »
Quote from: Cracked.com
If you live in my part of the country, you'll hear hard-working, rural farmer types say, "I got my own piece of land, I grow my own food, all I want is to be left alone." All right, well tell me this, cowboy:

Let's say some mean, even richer guy, like a wealthy gangsta rapper, hired a bunch of armed thugs to come take your farm. What would you do? Your shotgun won't fend them off -- they have a hundred bigger shotguns. What will you do, call the cops? That is, other people, who will risk their lives while being paid with still other people's tax money, who will try these bad guys in a court funded by yet other people's tax money, under laws passed by legislators paid with other people's tax money? Whoa, slow down there, welfare queen!

But if none of that stuff existed, there would be nothing stopping Jay-Z from taking your farm. In other words, you don't "own" shit. The entire concept of owning anything, be it a hunk of land or a house or a fucking sandwich, exists purely because other people pay other armed men to protect it. Without society, all of your brave, individual talents and efforts won't buy you a bucket of farts.

I used this exact argument against Adam Kokesh in an argument several months back. I am not a staunch libertarian, who often border on being anarchists. I am a moderate who believes in having a smaller government.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8257
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2017, 05:57:23 PM »
I just want to point out that Jesus was killed by immigrants.
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2017, 06:03:34 PM »
LOL.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9429
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2017, 06:15:07 PM »
"moderate"

lol

ok

Please, tell us more about your moderate positions.
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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2017, 06:38:52 PM »
"moderate"

lol

ok

Please, tell us more about your moderate positions.


Liberal positions: Pro choice. Pro Gay Marriage. Pro Legalization of Marijuana. Pro decriminalization of all drugs, favoring medical treatment for addicts. Pro government transparency. Pro embryonic stem-cell research. pro alternative energy sources + less fossil fuels. Aware of anthropogenic global warming. pro legalized euthanasia. Pro separation of church and state. Pro Legal immigration. Pro Prison reform.

Conservative positions: Oppose long-term welfare. Staunch protectionist global stance,. Anti illegal immigration. Pro securing the border. Anti UN. Anti EU. Lower taxes. Shrink Govt. Cut entitlements and subsidies. Respect Private Property at  all costs. I favor a competitive, free-market healthcare system. Pro Second Amendment. Pro Capitalism, Pro Charter Schools, Pro Death Penalty. Anti Affirmative action.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 06:46:25 PM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Feco

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2017, 07:20:58 PM »
Let's just say your positions did fall on a simple left-right axis, and that you your views were balanced along that axis.  I'm not certain that would make you a moderate.

Then again, "moderate" is a buzzword, and I'm not sure it has a really good meaning to begin with.  If it means something like "not radical," well, you're still not a moderate.  Typical, maybe.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 07:22:59 PM by Feco »
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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2017, 07:25:46 PM »
some people argue that a true moderate has stances on each issue between both extremes, like a compromise between left and right.

To me, that just seems like indecisiveness.

I believe a moderate is one who does not strictly adhere to the mantra of any political party, and instead, when they balance their positions with their lifestyle, they are equally left and right. Authoritarian and libertarian. etc.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Feco

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2017, 07:29:03 PM »
It doesn't seem like a particularly useful label for conversation.  Who cares what one calls themselves if it isn't clear what you mean?

I'm not sure how you can escape the label "libertarian" given your positions.  That seems to generally sum up what you believe, and most people would be able to guess your positions given the label.
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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2017, 07:31:42 PM »
I suppose, with everything except foreign policy.

That being said, I am often annoyed with libertarians, who go too far to the point of anarchy.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 07:38:01 PM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Feco

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2017, 07:39:24 PM »
Back on topic:

Quote
Jesus fucking christ. The former Soviet Union would only have DREAMED of publishing this level of propaganda on US soil a few decades back.

Which I think is 100% true. Can you imagine if the soviets got MIT to publish this book in the 70's? Would they not be thrilled? After all, the cold-war was largely a culture war, on top of a war of deterrence.
Back to my OP...
Is this contention wrong?

Who cares what they would have thought?  My understanding is that most modern socialists and communists don't hold the USSR up as a shining example of the political ideology.
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Melkor

  • Posts: 859
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2017, 07:49:20 PM »
Who cares what they would have thought?  My understanding is that most modern socialists and communists don't hold the USSR up as a shining example of the political ideology.
Modern socialists and communists do not hold ANY purely socialist or communist nation as a shining example of the political ideology, because whenever a nation truly implements socialism or communism, it fails.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8257
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2017, 07:55:52 PM »
Fascism though works fairly well. Just look at PRC.
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

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Feco

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Communism for Kids
« Reply #124 on: April 18, 2017, 08:04:17 PM »
Who cares what they would have thought?  My understanding is that most modern socialists and communists don't hold the USSR up as a shining example of the political ideology.
Modern socialists and communists do not hold ANY purely socialist or communist nation as a shining example of the political ideology, because whenever a nation truly implements socialism or communism, it fails.

That's a grossly oversimplified and fundamentally flawed statement, but I refuse to boil the socialist ideology down to bulleted talking points.  Given the extent to which I think you misunderstand socialism and communism, I can't put together a truly informative response in a reasonable amount of space.

That said, I think I can point out why you're misrepresenting what I said:

Your point assumes that a socialist (or a communist) wouldn't defend the USSR because they think (1) that the USSR was a good example of their political ideology and (2) that they simply don't want to make themselves or their ideology look bad by defending a collapsed state.

I was suggesting that they do not think the USSR was not a good example of their political ideology.  They would not hold (1) to be true.

Even if they did hold (1), your point seems to imply that the collapse of the state signals a failure of the political ideology.  That is not necessarily true, seeing as the political ideology wasn't the only thing acting on the state.  If a group of vandals burns down a store, that doesn't necessarily signal bad business practices.

That reeks of the 90s-era neoliberal argument that the "fall of communism," or something like that, signaled that liberal capitalism was the one true government, or something like that.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 08:06:02 PM by Feco »
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