Author Topic: Bandage  (Read 3319 times)

nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2017, 10:41:31 AM »
A more robust injury code might be nice. Something as simple as an injury flag that's visible to other players, reduces max hp, skills and movement speed.

If physicians were given a way to fix injuries, they'ed have a use beyond just topping up low hp.

This is close to what we've played around with in test builds over the years.

Much in the same way you can accumulate spice affects that change your various stats, in combat a character would accumulate injury affects with (like spice) timers on them that lower current, or potentially max, hit points.  Some injuries aren't going to leave you bloody and bruised but instead more fragile.  Different injuries would impair in their own way.  Slashes lower hit points.  Broken bones lower hit points and reduce movement, agility, increase movement costs.  Bruised organs reduce healing rate, hit point regen, stamina regen.  And so on.

Some 5hit point wounds would take a long time to heal while other 5hit point wounds would heal rather quickly.  A broken bone won't usually outright kill you, but it will take longer to heal than a deep slash on your back.

Anyone could assess a character to see their list of injuries with healer related skills giving better information about what they are, how seriously, and maybe where they came from.

When healing, then, the healer could choose which specific injuries to treat and pick the appropriate healing tool (bandage, splint, suture) for the injury at hand.


This is all way more complicated than a first pass implementation would be, and is largely just talking ideas.

It's an idea we've thought about repeatedly.

But, priorities.

Riev

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2017, 10:57:46 AM »
It sounds rather like the bandage and wounds system from SOI, at least the brief amount I remember of it.

It could make things a bit more interesting. Especially in the "don't kill him" department and the "I'll just sleep it off" area.
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manipura

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2017, 12:22:55 PM »
My only beef with the bandage code is the one time I actually wanted to use it was years ago - found a guy was in that dying stage, unconscious - I got the "you don't have the skill" message. Old ranger, master, blah blah blah couldn't do anything so what's the point.

I -think-, and I could be wrong, but I think in these cases, where you have someone unconscious and in negative health and on their way to death, you need a top notch bandage as well as a top notch bandager.  It's not just a matter of having the skill to attempt it but having equipment good enough for the situation.  Like I said, I could be wrong about that but it's what my experiences have led me to believe.  Of course if I -am- wrong about it I'm sure someone will jump right in to point it out.  ::)

Nergal

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2017, 02:19:23 PM »
Took out a big derail. Try to stay on topic and try not to insult one another. Thanks.
  

TheGoose

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2017, 05:12:15 PM »
Derail, maybe, but a cool derail! :excited:

Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2017, 05:34:58 PM »
adv bandage, scraps

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Inks

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2017, 12:51:59 AM »
Bandage absolutely doesn't need to be buffed. It is robust and already unrealistically fast. I would nerf scraps to have a 15 hp limit maybe. 1/5 fail rate is more than fine since we are using dark age remedies.
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Bushranger

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2017, 01:57:30 AM »
My only wish regarding bandage is for players to stop freaking out over a failed attempt. It happens, even at advanced or master, and doesn't mean the physician sucks!

This is close to what we've played around with in test builds over the years.

Much in the same way you can accumulate spice affects that change your various stats, in combat a character would accumulate injury affects with (like spice) timers on them that lower current, or potentially max, hit points.  Some injuries aren't going to leave you bloody and bruised but instead more fragile.  Different injuries would impair in their own way.  Slashes lower hit points.  Broken bones lower hit points and reduce movement, agility, increase movement costs.  Bruised organs reduce healing rate, hit point regen, stamina regen.  And so on.

Some 5hit point wounds would take a long time to heal while other 5hit point wounds would heal rather quickly.  A broken bone won't usually outright kill you, but it will take longer to heal than a deep slash on your back.

Anyone could assess a character to see their list of injuries with healer related skills giving better information about what they are, how seriously, and maybe where they came from.

When healing, then, the healer could choose which specific injuries to treat and pick the appropriate healing tool (bandage, splint, suture) for the injury at hand.


This is all way more complicated than a first pass implementation would be, and is largely just talking ideas.

It's an idea we've thought about repeatedly.

But, priorities.


This sounds super awesome and I would support it, but yeah priorities.

Bandage absolutely doesn't need to be buffed. It is robust and already unrealistically fast. I would nerf scraps to have a 15 hp limit maybe. 1/5 fail rate is more than fine since we are using dark age remedies.

I also think this is a good idea :) Scraps are just scraps.
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Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2017, 07:20:41 PM »
Posting from break at work.
So, after the revamp, tried out bandage for the first time..
Adv bandage.
Lost 10hp failing. Succeeded with simple sandcloth bandage. Rested for 10 minutes indoors without any hp returning.

Am i doing it wrong???
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Dresan

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2017, 08:01:23 PM »
Interesting change.

With the bandage change, I wouldn't mind see all health regen removed outside sleeping, taverns, and sparring rooms.
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Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2017, 10:49:27 PM »
Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

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Bushranger

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM »
Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

I think that preferring to sleep away your injuries instead of getting some medical attention (bandaging) is unrealistic and am glad it has been addressed.

I think that getting some medical attention (bandaging) and then sleeping is perfectly normal behavior.

If you go to your doctor and get some stitches to close up a gash do they tell you to go back to work or to rest?
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Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2017, 03:20:25 AM »
Sound logic, there.

Though ig whether you are bandaged or not, you will regen all hp with one night's sleep. 
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Twilight

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2017, 05:19:15 PM »
I assume you mean that you were damaged to a point you wouldn't normally regen?  You didn't say that.  Attention to detail is important.  For example, from the release notes:

Quote
-At high effectiveness (a factor of bandage quality and healer skill) heal from wounds that normally require sleep
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Rokal

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2017, 05:22:02 AM »
My only wish regarding bandage is for players to stop freaking out over a failed attempt. It happens, even at advanced or master, and doesn't mean the physician sucks!


This. The reactions people seem to have over a failed bandage attempt are kind of crazy, though if someone does several fails in a row and ignores the patient's complaints, thats a different story, but still.

Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

I think that preferring to sleep away your injuries instead of getting some medical attention (bandaging) is unrealistic and am glad it has been addressed.

I think that getting some medical attention (bandaging) and then sleeping is perfectly normal behavior.

If you go to your doctor and get some stitches to close up a gash do they tell you to go back to work or to rest?
Sleeping after being treated makes a perfect amount of sense, and you dont need to rp sleep as an entirely -deep- rest, either. With the new changes, the recovery while sleeping after being bandaged is quick enough that anyone sleeping will be back up in a very short period of time; down times shouldn't be long, people want to rp, after all.

Thats how i feel, but of course, if you had a near death situation where you were hit by two heavy damage attacks and were brought back from the brink of death by medical aid, that should be a character defining moment that you take a fair bit of time to recover from (least I would! with scars to boot) There is something quite thrilling about getting out of a dangerous situation with only a single hitpoint left and barely RPing your survival, seeking aid.

Inks

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2017, 11:01:43 AM »
Bandage is cool now  8).

But also different from magick.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2017, 11:26:41 AM »
I am very, very much enjoying the new bandage changes.  As has been said before, the old way was too much like healing magick.
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JackGibbons

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2017, 07:18:00 AM »
Quick question, if this is permitted. Just returned after being away a long time. I see that I get this on what was previously my go-to best bandage:

...might be used as a bandage, although it's quality may be beyond your skills to fully utilize.

Despite having (master) bandage, or at least master on the Ranger scale with no SG help to boost it further.

Does this mean I might be better off with a lesser quality bandage in order to fail less?
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nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2017, 09:43:45 AM »
Quick question, if this is permitted. Just returned after being away a long time. I see that I get this on what was previously my go-to best bandage:

...might be used as a bandage, although it's quality may be beyond your skills to fully utilize.

Despite having (master) bandage, or at least master on the Ranger scale with no SG help to boost it further.

Does this mean I might be better off with a lesser quality bandage in order to fail less?


The effectiveness of the bandage is constrained by the lower of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

However, it is always to your character's advantage to use the best bandage they can find as the bandage's quality contributes to your character's chance of successfully using the skill.

What the assess message is meant to communicate is that your character's skill will be the limiting factor in how effective the bandage will be.



Put more simply,

Your character's chance of success is their bandage skill + bandage quality.

The effectiveness of the bandage is the lower value of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

whitt

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2017, 10:11:09 AM »
The effectiveness of the bandage is the lower value of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

Nessalin, thank you for this explanation. It's been puzzling the crap out of me that my only options upon bandaging seem to be poor or masterful.  Can I suggest that it might be a better formula that the effectiveness of the bandage be the lower value of:
a) your character's skill
or
b) (your character's skill + quality of the bandage) / 2
or even
c) (your character's skill + quality of the bandage + quality of the bandage) / 3) if you want the quality of the bandage to be weighted higher than skill

This would allow someone very skill at bandaging to do good things with any bandage they can find, but they'd still want the good bandages if they can get them.  With the current formula, as you've explained it.  A total noob and a master healer will peak at the same effectiveness point with a poor bandage.  Granted the master will have a better chance of succeeding at getting some result, but the difference between success and failure may be minimal.

It would seem odd to say, "Oh, all you have is a scrap of cloth?  Might as well let new boots there try."  On the contrary, a Master can work wonders in even the worst of situations.
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Tisiphone

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2017, 10:11:54 AM »
After playing with this a bit:

I think successfully bandaging with any bandage should enable regeneration of HP from below the normal hp-regen spot. The worse the bandage, the slower the regen, but it should still work.

There are two uses of bandages I can see right now:
  • enabling/increasing hp regen
  • allowing the recovery of hp from negative numbers

Even assuming low-quality bandages work for the latter, that's an extremely niche case. Awesome, yes, but not going to come up but seldom.

As it stands now, there's more-or-less a hard cutoff: bandages above a certain quality are useful, and bandages below a certain quality give you a cool appendix in your assess and mdesc. So instead of using bandages, if I can't rustle up bandages of that quality or higher, I'm going to go sleep, without bandaging. Low quality bandages are useless.

If low-quality bandages enable hp regen below the threshold, then they become useful again. I will probably still sleep, because in my vision low-quality bandages will also only allow very, very slow hp regen - for the lowest quality, you may only get 10 hp over the course of the bandage timer, for example. But the difference is, I may still use them for their coded benefit, whereas now all they're for is practicing the bandage skill.
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nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2017, 10:40:18 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback.

For the initial change over a concerted effort was made to keep things simple. Obviously a great many ideas got put by the side or shelved.

For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

After that more complicated changes will start getting worked in.

Tisiphone

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2017, 10:42:44 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback.

For the initial change over a concerted effort was made to keep things simple. Obviously a great many ideas got put by the side or shelved.

For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

After that more complicated changes will start getting worked in.

Thanks to you and all others involved for working to make this, and for considering player input to help make it better.
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whitt

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2017, 10:44:56 AM »
For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

Righto.  Thank you for a great code change!
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