Author Topic: Bandage  (Read 2389 times)

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Bandage
« on: April 08, 2017, 07:19:24 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the bandage skill is in need of a hefty revamp?

Here are a few of my gripes with the skill:

As a physician subguild with maxed bandage skill, with good stats, using quality bandages, I still find myself failing 4/5 times. I find it more dangerous to use than not.

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous that, if you are at 60% health, just a hair under when you would not automatically regen HP, that you could potentially bandage yourself to death. What is this guy doing? Ripping out veins and arteries and stuffing the bandages underneath? I mean, boy scouts learn to effectively and safely tend to very serious wounds, often using salvaged bandaging materials to do so.... But a Zalanthan can bandage himself to death from 60% hp, basically just wrapping cloth around a gash...?
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Pale Horse

  • Posts: 4226
Re: Bandage
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 08:20:32 PM »
You're not the only one.

Everyone has at one time or another pointed out what you mentioned.  The bandage skill is kind of borked.

If I remember right, a re-vamp of it is on Staff's radar, but it's of lower priority.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 08:21:23 PM »
I must be stupidly lucky with bandage because I fail like 1 every 15 times or so.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2017, 08:49:11 PM »
I must be stupidly lucky with bandage because I fail like 1 every 15 times or so.

Or maybe I am stupidly unlucky. Shrug.

my 80% failure rate is pretty consistent, though. ATM feels like the only reason subguild physician is remotely useful is for brew.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Exen44

  • Posts: 200
Re: Bandage
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017, 11:19:32 PM »
I must be stupidly lucky with bandage because I fail like 1 every 15 times or so.

Or maybe I am stupidly unlucky. Shrug.

my 80% failure rate is pretty consistent, though. ATM feels like the only reason subguild physician is remotely useful is for brew.

Trust me, it's not just you. It's ridiculous. I'm hoping that they do something about it soon.
"I sexually identify as depression. That way I have an active sex life because I keep fucking everyone."
-Me, 2017.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2017, 02:48:07 AM »
When you assess -v the bandages you're using, what is the quality output?

Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're already near-death?

Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're otherwise impaired (drunk, withdrawing from spice, etc.)?

Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're extremely burdened?
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Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Bandage
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2017, 11:58:59 AM »
I've almost never seen someone bandage themselves to death, because nobody would be so foolish. I think the HP rolls on what gets healed/damaged need a bit of tweaking, because you can heal for 3pts at high skill, and lose 20 at the same skill level.

That said, I've also seen Rangers with High Bandaging bring a half-giant who got beaten and poisoned back from Near-Death status, with a single bandage.

Vivaduans have magick that can heal you with no failing, but its magick. Mundanes have a fucking smelly bandage that can PROBABLY bring you back from the bring of death with a  single skill check.


I do think the numbers could be looked at, but I don't think its absolutely terrible. Mostly, I think Physician Subguilds should be a bit more effective, as its kind of their chosen profession, and they fail pretty well often.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2017, 12:10:51 PM »
When you assess -v the bandages you're using, what is the quality output?
Pristine.
Quote
Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're already near-death?
No. ~60% hp. Just under self-regen.
Quote
Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're otherwise impaired (drunk, withdrawing from spice, etc.)?
Nope.
Quote
Are you trying to bandage yourself when you're extremely burdened?
Manageable or Heavy but manageable.

I merely said you are ABLE bandage yourself to death, which is silly. Like I said before, boy-scouts learn to effectively set bones, suture wounds, cauterize non-suturable wounds, and even to stabilize a person who has lost a limb. Doesn't really make sense that a physician-subguild warrior in Zalanthas would hurt himself more by bandaging a gash on his arm.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

manipura

  • Posts: 1473
Re: Bandage
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2017, 12:46:07 PM »
Doesn't really make sense that in RL doctors would amputate the wrong limb, give the wrong medication, misdiagnose a patient, or leave instruments in a patient after surgery.  Zalanthas is hardly the gold standard for how medical treatment -should- play out.

I don't think bandage is all that broken.  I think it's odd that physicians cap the skill where they do, but in regard to other skills in game that cap at the same level, it's pretty much on par.  Advanced is just not really that good or reliable.  I think you just notice it more when you fail at bandage and damage yourself, rather than failing at the same level and ending up with yet another pile of kindling or snapped branch or scrap of useless cloth. 

I think it's a bit odd that both physician and apothecary cap at the same level, considering one is an extended subguild, which I thought was meant to be a regular subguild, but a little better.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2017, 01:11:24 PM »
Also, I have a suspicion that bandage success is partially agility-based, so if you have shit agility to start with, and you're burdened on top of that, it's going to make bandaging yourself a problem.  If you add to that other negative modifiers that seem to be in effect occasionally, it might be enough to bring a cap where you fail 40 percent of the time down to an effective cap of failing 50 or 60 percent of the time.

Not saying it necessarily makes sense, but I imagine the bandage code and the guild/subguild caps were playtested to be "functional" by average human standards, prior to other things being added to the game (encumbrance "fuck-your-agility" code and other things).  As such, there may be some interplays between old and new code that are yielding unintended results.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
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Exen44

  • Posts: 200
Re: Bandage
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2017, 01:31:00 PM »
As someone who has played characters with high agility who has had the bandage skill, I'm inclined to say that I doubt that bandage success is partially agility-based.
"I sexually identify as depression. That way I have an active sex life because I keep fucking everyone."
-Me, 2017.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2017, 01:35:57 PM »
As someone who has played characters with high agility who has had the bandage skill, I'm inclined to say that I doubt that bandage success is partially agility-based.

Well, since you're apparently in the "failures are possible" zone, you could test the hypothesis for yourself if you really wanted to.

The only PCs I ever really used bandage on frequently were rangers and merchants, both of which get a high cap.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Bandage
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »
The high default failure rate may also be intended, not just "because Zalanthas" but because of the coded ability of healing someone like that.

LikeI said, I'd like to see the numbers changed, so higher skill was less "pass or fail" and more "the higher the skill, the more 'positive' HP is affected". So if you fail, at a high skill, you don't lose 12hp a hit.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2017, 03:34:35 PM »
@ synth... Fails at this rate with hella-high agility.

Riev, that is a great idea. Perfect.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2017, 07:43:24 PM »
Just so its known, my 1 to 15 failure rate was on a ranger with master bandage. Which goes to show that a few extra points in a skill is the difference between killing yourself and instaheals.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2017, 07:55:20 PM »
I figured you were a ranger, tbh.

I think physicians should be able to bandage better than a ranger.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2017, 08:01:52 PM »
In the grand scheme of things they really should have maxxed bandage and brew and probably even an extra command to possibly diagnose if someone is poisoned or thirsty or hungry. But at the end of the day, for coded simplicity it is just a subguild which never achieves mastery so far as I know.

Maybe after the mainguild revamp it will get fixed, which would be fabulous.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2017, 04:44:54 AM »
jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 03:06:23 AM by Synthesis »
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2017, 08:26:36 PM »
Adv bandage.

Scraps of cloth.

-4
+6
+3
-7
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 01:07:18 AM »
At master bandage with scraps of cloth I have routinely healed for 20s and 30s. Exact numbers are lost, but definately a sizable chunk once master is reached, which is perhaps a little bit much all things told.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 10:27:36 AM »
At master bandage with scraps of cloth I have routinely healed for 20s and 30s. Exact numbers are lost, but definately a sizable chunk once master is reached, which is perhaps a little bit much all things told.

....ughhhh
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 07:38:08 PM »
Its a scrap of cloth, healing for anything past 10 is probably a bit much with them. Or is the ughhhh from lack of evidence?

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 07:45:20 PM »
Nah. The uggghhhhh was from, using salve-bandages, or herb-steeped bandages, with Advanced level bandage skill, the most I ever healed for was like 12 hp, and lost around 15hp.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 08:18:32 PM »
Ah, yeah the difference between adv and master bandage is nuts. Fail once every blue moon, heal for large amounts quite easily.
It could probably use a little tweaking to stop scraps healing so very much, but at the same time, you are a master at doing said thing, if you couldnt at least slow a bleed with a random scrap of cloth you arent going to stop it entirely with cloth made specifically for the job.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 08:41:45 PM »
Ehhhh now you're getting into the murky waters of trying to make IG actions analogous to RL ones.
I mean, if you sever your femoral artery, cloth of any kind ain't gonna cut it.
Or if you break a pelvis, a scrap of cloth wont do shit.

My issue is separate from that. Riev was on-point when he said
I'd like to see the numbers changed, so higher skill was less "pass or fail" and more "the higher the skill, the more 'positive' HP is affected". So if you fail, at a high skill, you don't lose 12hp a hit.

"higher skill was less "pass or fail" and more "the higher the skill, the more 'positive' HP is affected"
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Bandage
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2017, 02:05:32 AM »
Wouldnt it be nice to have a suture kit IG.
For the things a bandage shouldnt be able to fix. Maybe have it act as a multi-use bandage.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 07:56:03 AM »
No! Bad Hauwke! You're getting distracted again. I think RP solves that issue perfectly. What RP doesnt solve is the pass/fail rate for a maxed physician tending to minor wounds.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Bandage
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2017, 09:53:48 AM »
There are items in game that can KINDA do those things, Hauwke, but I think Melkor is right in that the RP of the scene can set those. It'd be nice if there were tools that increased your bandage skill, but I don't think its necessary.

I think the skill should be affected by the bandage skill level, and a base healing factor dependent on the bandage.

Scrap of cloth: 4hp
Regular bandage: 8hp
Advanced bandage: 12hp

Then based on your skill, you get a +/- based on whether you succeed or fail.

Novice through Master determining +1 through +5(ish).

So if you succeed as a novice with a scrap of cloth, you can do between 4-5hp healed. If you fail, since you only have a +1, you can do up to 3hp damage.

As you get higher levels, your bonuses get higher, but so do the risks. So if you use an advanced bandage at Master, you can heal for 12-17hp on a success, and when you fail you can do up to 7hp damage.


Obvioulsy the numbers could change, but that's how I see it. Let advanced bandages possibly cause more harm than simple cloth wrappings, but mitigate the damage by skill. An absolute idiot using some mastercrafted herb-steeped bandage isn't going to know how to set it properly against the wound, or whether to wrap over the wound or beside it. So if they succeed, great HP, but if they fail, they can do a lot more harm than good. Better to stick with scraps of cloth so if you fail, its not so bad.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2017, 10:11:40 AM »
You lost me at "Whether to wrap over the wound or beside it." All of my whats.
And again, I dont think a quality bandage would be harder to use than a junk bandage. The salve bandages and herb-steeped ones are better because they numb the wound, and likely have antiseptic properties. Honestly, I think Zalanthans would have pretty amazing immune systems, where local bacteria woulld probably not even cause infection, so antiseptics are mehhh as far as healing benefits IMO. Now numbing? Numbing a wound =/= better healing. In fact, pain and inflammation walk hand-in hand, and inflammation increases blood-flow to an injury, which is conducive to faster healing. This is why cold and hot compresses are used in tandem. Cold to numb the pain, warm to open blood vessels.

Another again, we are getting into murky waters of trying to conform a game to real-life. This is not even necessary. RP compensates for that.

I see bandages as a thing that facilitates RP. Like, you rp setting branches/bones on a broken limb and THEN wrap the splint with the bandage. Or you RP burning a wound shut with an obsidian blade sitting in a fire, THEN cover the wound with bandage.

Just make the code reasonable. lol.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Bandage
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 10:35:21 AM »
Except that there are clearly levels, and quality, in bandages. Which is why I'm arguing for a semi-realistic and usable method of bandaging in the game.

I'm at work and haven't had breakfast, so I'm delusional at best. Most of what I say is nonsense. However, we clearly have dirty scraps of cloth, clean linen, and advanced soaked bandages. There are already distinctions whose mechanics I'm not privy to, I'm just making a suggestion on how I think they could work better.

I'm not RPing using a 200coin bandage to save your life, there are coded benefits to it. I'm just suggesting that you don't get to heal for 20hp at Novice because you used a fancy bandage, and if you fail it "didn't fail as bad". Code is not reasonable, but at least try to come up with "how it could be reasonable" than "make it better".
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2017, 10:39:19 AM »
I already said your first idea was perfect.


The high default failure rate may also be intended, not just "because Zalanthas" but because of the coded ability of healing someone like that.

LikeI said, I'd like to see the numbers changed, so higher skill was less "pass or fail" and more "the higher the skill, the more 'positive' HP is affected". So if you fail, at a high skill, you don't lose 12hp a hit.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Bandage
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2017, 10:42:41 AM »
Right, but mechanically how does that actually work? If you pass, you get a modifier based on your skill level, but if you fail you get the same bonus, so instead of losing 12hp standard, you might only lose 7?

I'm just trying to work out HOW that would work, especially considering we already have quality bandages coded in game. If you fail, should lose 4hp but have a +5 modifier, what happens?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2017, 10:54:06 AM »
I think failing a bandage and causing damage is a dumb premise to begin with.


edited to add: Eh.... At least at experienced levels of the bandage skill. If a novice level bandager tries to suture a wound or cauterize one, sure, I see some damage taking place.

Now, a maxed physician? Come on.

But even a novice knows how to wrap cloth around a minor wound.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:13:10 AM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2017, 03:59:36 PM »
If Armageddon continues to survive and evolve, eventually a location-based damage system will go in, I'm sure.

Hitpoints are a total joke, in general.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2017, 04:23:19 PM »
jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Sadus

  • Posts: 357
Re: Bandage
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2017, 05:45:51 PM »
It'd be nice if there were tools that increased your bandage skill, but I don't think its necessary.

Maybe there are?  Find out IC.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18759
Re: Bandage
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 05:49:36 PM »
If there are you can just say there are. It's not something that needs to be found out in-game.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2017, 05:55:12 PM »
jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)

-5

+10 (jman, scraps)

Still doesn't seem to be horribly broken.

If your success rate are deviating remarkably worse than this with advanced bandaging...again, my guess is that it's a stat, encumbrance, or effect issue.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:15:39 PM by Synthesis »
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Sadus

  • Posts: 357
Re: Bandage
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 06:15:10 PM »
If there are you can just say there are. It's not something that needs to be found out in-game.

Oh, okay.  There are.  One of the GMHs sells them.  One of them seems to give a pretty massive boost to bandage.

Probably be pretty nifty for a Physician.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:30:35 PM by Sadus »

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2017, 08:57:22 AM »
jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)

-5

+10 (jman, scraps)

Still doesn't seem to be horribly broken.

If your success rate are deviating remarkably worse than this with advanced bandaging...again, my guess is that it's a stat, encumbrance, or effect issue.

-3
+10 (jman, scraps)

-4 (jman, basic bandage)
-8 (jman, basic bandage)
-6 (jman, basic bandage)
-4 (jman, scrap)
+12 (jman, scrap)
-9 (jman, scrap)

Note:  This entire run was done under what I strongly suspect is an adverse condition (if not 2 adverse conditions), which adds some evidence to support what I suspected all along.  Obviously I can't be certain without access to the code, but it appears that failure rate and damage increased during this (these?) condition(s?).

That is:
Failure rate without condition:  44.4%
Mean health lost on fail without condition: -2.75hp/fail

Failure rate during condition:  75%
Mean health lost on fail during condition: -5.67hp/fail

Pay attention to every bit of information that is available to you and/or your PC during the times your bandaging skill seems to suck ass, and you might eventually figure it out.  I don't think this is a bug, since both potential conditions were presumably intentionally coded to result in increased skill failure rates.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2017, 11:32:01 AM »
If the adverse condition is "I am wearing a heavy pack, so I cannot bandage a moderate wound," Then that is also something I think should be addressed.

I'm with you when you spoke of a location-based damage system as opposed to HP. That would be greeeaaat.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »
If the adverse condition is "I am wearing a heavy pack, so I cannot bandage a moderate wound," Then that is also something I think should be addressed.

I'm with you when you spoke of a location-based damage system as opposed to HP. That would be greeeaaat.

Encumbrance isn't one of the conditions I've specifically tested (yet), but it's fairly obvious that encumbrance now has a rather large, global effect on agility-based rolls.  Even if 'bandage' doesn't have an agility modifier (there's no way to know that for sure), on the off chance that it does, why -wouldn't- you routinely dump your pack and lower your encumbrance before performing -any- potentially agility-based task, when that's a reasonable option?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 03:54:15 PM »
Okay. Lets say I am a bynner out in the wastes (Im not) and after tangling with some gith, I want to wrap up a puncture on my wrist.... Then I proceed to take off my pack, my breastplate, my helmet, my weapons, my bandolier/satchel and drop them all in the sand to get my encumbrance down to increase the likelyhood of succeeding wrapping a minor/moderate wound on my wrist.....

This screams twink. At most, I would remove the bracer on the arm in question.
This reminds me of a guy I once sparred with. Took off all of his armor, his belt, his boots, etc. and said "Its important to be light when you fight the X"
And I replied "....... You take off your belt to fight the X, do ya?"

Twinky behavior is lame. Im not gonna take shit off for a better roll.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9365
Re: Bandage
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 04:25:57 PM »
If your goal is to be as quick as possible in sparring, sparring as light as possible is not being a "twink."

Taking your pack off and packing it on your mount while you do some kind of agility-related task is not twinking.

But...I guess if you want to continually handicap yourself just to be contrarian, that's your call bro.

To flip it around:  I could make the claim that it is twinkish to constantly be walking around in armor and gear so heavy that it makes routine tasks difficult for your PC....

But anyway...this whole encumbrance thing is just a derail.  It is what it is.  You can plan accordingly or not.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 04:34:00 PM by Synthesis »
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Riev

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2017, 04:45:57 PM »
At this point Melkor, I think you're asking for more discrete code than even Arm's advanced DIKU codebase can handle. Its becoming less about "make the numbers make sense" and more "It should work better at <x> encumbrance".
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Feco

  • Posts: 1769
Re: Bandage
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2017, 05:12:30 PM »
No one is going to think you're a bad roleplayer for using "pack mount" and quickly getting to work.

It's a game, fam.
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tapas

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bandage
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2017, 05:15:49 PM »
A more robust injury code might be nice. Something as simple as an injury flag that's visible to other players, reduces max hp, skills and movement speed.

If physicians were given a way to fix injuries, they'ed have a use beyond just topping up low hp.

Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2017, 05:17:34 PM »
+1 tapas
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Delirium

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2017, 05:22:20 PM »
No one is going to think you're a bad roleplayer for using "pack mount" and quickly getting to work.

It's a game, fam.
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burble

  • Posts: 103
Re: Bandage
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2017, 10:13:40 AM »
Change bandage to poultice.
Change the message to say "you apply some herbs to the drov chakra and attempt to wrap it in sandcloth"

Then the dependence on agility would make sense. Envision balancing some plant leaves on a body part, keeping them in place while you wrap the offending chakra. You won't be doing that easily with your pack shifting around on your back.
Now the damage makes sense. You probably aren't helping with whatever you attempt since your model of how the body works is incorrect.

Afterwards advise drinking the blood of a wiggler mixed with crushed elf toes and a bit of dwarf ear just to ward off bad humors.

I wonder does some house/book in the game have a model of how/what injuries and illness were treated according to Zalanthian knowledge?  Energy flows, elements, bloodletting?

My only beef with the bandage code is the one time I actually wanted to use it was years ago - found a guy was in that dying stage, unconscious - I got the "you don't have the skill" message. Old ranger, master, blah blah blah couldn't do anything so what's the point.

nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2017, 10:41:31 AM »
A more robust injury code might be nice. Something as simple as an injury flag that's visible to other players, reduces max hp, skills and movement speed.

If physicians were given a way to fix injuries, they'ed have a use beyond just topping up low hp.

This is close to what we've played around with in test builds over the years.

Much in the same way you can accumulate spice affects that change your various stats, in combat a character would accumulate injury affects with (like spice) timers on them that lower current, or potentially max, hit points.  Some injuries aren't going to leave you bloody and bruised but instead more fragile.  Different injuries would impair in their own way.  Slashes lower hit points.  Broken bones lower hit points and reduce movement, agility, increase movement costs.  Bruised organs reduce healing rate, hit point regen, stamina regen.  And so on.

Some 5hit point wounds would take a long time to heal while other 5hit point wounds would heal rather quickly.  A broken bone won't usually outright kill you, but it will take longer to heal than a deep slash on your back.

Anyone could assess a character to see their list of injuries with healer related skills giving better information about what they are, how seriously, and maybe where they came from.

When healing, then, the healer could choose which specific injuries to treat and pick the appropriate healing tool (bandage, splint, suture) for the injury at hand.


This is all way more complicated than a first pass implementation would be, and is largely just talking ideas.

It's an idea we've thought about repeatedly.

But, priorities.

Riev

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2017, 10:57:46 AM »
It sounds rather like the bandage and wounds system from SOI, at least the brief amount I remember of it.

It could make things a bit more interesting. Especially in the "don't kill him" department and the "I'll just sleep it off" area.
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manipura

  • Posts: 1473
Re: Bandage
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2017, 12:22:55 PM »
My only beef with the bandage code is the one time I actually wanted to use it was years ago - found a guy was in that dying stage, unconscious - I got the "you don't have the skill" message. Old ranger, master, blah blah blah couldn't do anything so what's the point.

I -think-, and I could be wrong, but I think in these cases, where you have someone unconscious and in negative health and on their way to death, you need a top notch bandage as well as a top notch bandager.  It's not just a matter of having the skill to attempt it but having equipment good enough for the situation.  Like I said, I could be wrong about that but it's what my experiences have led me to believe.  Of course if I -am- wrong about it I'm sure someone will jump right in to point it out.  ::)

Nergal

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2017, 02:19:23 PM »
Took out a big derail. Try to stay on topic and try not to insult one another. Thanks.
  

TheGoose

  • Posts: 90
Re: Bandage
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2017, 05:12:15 PM »
Derail, maybe, but a cool derail! :excited:

Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2017, 05:34:58 PM »
adv bandage, scraps

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Inks

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2017, 12:51:59 AM »
Bandage absolutely doesn't need to be buffed. It is robust and already unrealistically fast. I would nerf scraps to have a 15 hp limit maybe. 1/5 fail rate is more than fine since we are using dark age remedies.
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Bushranger

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2017, 01:57:30 AM »
My only wish regarding bandage is for players to stop freaking out over a failed attempt. It happens, even at advanced or master, and doesn't mean the physician sucks!

This is close to what we've played around with in test builds over the years.

Much in the same way you can accumulate spice affects that change your various stats, in combat a character would accumulate injury affects with (like spice) timers on them that lower current, or potentially max, hit points.  Some injuries aren't going to leave you bloody and bruised but instead more fragile.  Different injuries would impair in their own way.  Slashes lower hit points.  Broken bones lower hit points and reduce movement, agility, increase movement costs.  Bruised organs reduce healing rate, hit point regen, stamina regen.  And so on.

Some 5hit point wounds would take a long time to heal while other 5hit point wounds would heal rather quickly.  A broken bone won't usually outright kill you, but it will take longer to heal than a deep slash on your back.

Anyone could assess a character to see their list of injuries with healer related skills giving better information about what they are, how seriously, and maybe where they came from.

When healing, then, the healer could choose which specific injuries to treat and pick the appropriate healing tool (bandage, splint, suture) for the injury at hand.


This is all way more complicated than a first pass implementation would be, and is largely just talking ideas.

It's an idea we've thought about repeatedly.

But, priorities.


This sounds super awesome and I would support it, but yeah priorities.

Bandage absolutely doesn't need to be buffed. It is robust and already unrealistically fast. I would nerf scraps to have a 15 hp limit maybe. 1/5 fail rate is more than fine since we are using dark age remedies.

I also think this is a good idea :) Scraps are just scraps.
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Melkor

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2017, 07:20:41 PM »
Posting from break at work.
So, after the revamp, tried out bandage for the first time..
Adv bandage.
Lost 10hp failing. Succeeded with simple sandcloth bandage. Rested for 10 minutes indoors without any hp returning.

Am i doing it wrong???
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1149
Re: Bandage
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2017, 08:01:23 PM »
Interesting change.

With the bandage change, I wouldn't mind see all health regen removed outside sleeping, taverns, and sparring rooms.
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Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2017, 10:49:27 PM »
Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

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Bushranger

  • Posts: 1773
Re: Bandage
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM »
Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

I think that preferring to sleep away your injuries instead of getting some medical attention (bandaging) is unrealistic and am glad it has been addressed.

I think that getting some medical attention (bandaging) and then sleeping is perfectly normal behavior.

If you go to your doctor and get some stitches to close up a gash do they tell you to go back to work or to rest?
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Melkor

  • Posts: 755
Re: Bandage
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2017, 03:20:25 AM »
Sound logic, there.

Though ig whether you are bandaged or not, you will regen all hp with one night's sleep. 
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Twilight

  • Posts: 1714
Re: Bandage
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2017, 05:19:15 PM »
I assume you mean that you were damaged to a point you wouldn't normally regen?  You didn't say that.  Attention to detail is important.  For example, from the release notes:

Quote
-At high effectiveness (a factor of bandage quality and healer skill) heal from wounds that normally require sleep
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Rokal

  • Posts: 408
Re: Bandage
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2017, 05:22:02 AM »
My only wish regarding bandage is for players to stop freaking out over a failed attempt. It happens, even at advanced or master, and doesn't mean the physician sucks!


This. The reactions people seem to have over a failed bandage attempt are kind of crazy, though if someone does several fails in a row and ignores the patient's complaints, thats a different story, but still.

Second break at work. Upon sleeping, it seems i healed at a faster rate than if i slept without bandaging.

This seems like it will exacerbate the "I'll sleep it off" behavior.

I think that preferring to sleep away your injuries instead of getting some medical attention (bandaging) is unrealistic and am glad it has been addressed.

I think that getting some medical attention (bandaging) and then sleeping is perfectly normal behavior.

If you go to your doctor and get some stitches to close up a gash do they tell you to go back to work or to rest?
Sleeping after being treated makes a perfect amount of sense, and you dont need to rp sleep as an entirely -deep- rest, either. With the new changes, the recovery while sleeping after being bandaged is quick enough that anyone sleeping will be back up in a very short period of time; down times shouldn't be long, people want to rp, after all.

Thats how i feel, but of course, if you had a near death situation where you were hit by two heavy damage attacks and were brought back from the brink of death by medical aid, that should be a character defining moment that you take a fair bit of time to recover from (least I would! with scars to boot) There is something quite thrilling about getting out of a dangerous situation with only a single hitpoint left and barely RPing your survival, seeking aid.

Inks

  • Posts: 1070
Re: Bandage
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2017, 11:01:43 AM »
Bandage is cool now  8).

But also different from magick.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2017, 11:26:41 AM »
I am very, very much enjoying the new bandage changes.  As has been said before, the old way was too much like healing magick.
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JackGibbons

  • Posts: 298
Re: Bandage
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2017, 07:18:00 AM »
Quick question, if this is permitted. Just returned after being away a long time. I see that I get this on what was previously my go-to best bandage:

...might be used as a bandage, although it's quality may be beyond your skills to fully utilize.

Despite having (master) bandage, or at least master on the Ranger scale with no SG help to boost it further.

Does this mean I might be better off with a lesser quality bandage in order to fail less?
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nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2017, 09:43:45 AM »
Quick question, if this is permitted. Just returned after being away a long time. I see that I get this on what was previously my go-to best bandage:

...might be used as a bandage, although it's quality may be beyond your skills to fully utilize.

Despite having (master) bandage, or at least master on the Ranger scale with no SG help to boost it further.

Does this mean I might be better off with a lesser quality bandage in order to fail less?


The effectiveness of the bandage is constrained by the lower of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

However, it is always to your character's advantage to use the best bandage they can find as the bandage's quality contributes to your character's chance of successfully using the skill.

What the assess message is meant to communicate is that your character's skill will be the limiting factor in how effective the bandage will be.



Put more simply,

Your character's chance of success is their bandage skill + bandage quality.

The effectiveness of the bandage is the lower value of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

whitt

  • Posts: 1625
Re: Bandage
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2017, 10:11:09 AM »
The effectiveness of the bandage is the lower value of your character's skill or the bandage's quality.

Nessalin, thank you for this explanation. It's been puzzling the crap out of me that my only options upon bandaging seem to be poor or masterful.  Can I suggest that it might be a better formula that the effectiveness of the bandage be the lower value of:
a) your character's skill
or
b) (your character's skill + quality of the bandage) / 2
or even
c) (your character's skill + quality of the bandage + quality of the bandage) / 3) if you want the quality of the bandage to be weighted higher than skill

This would allow someone very skill at bandaging to do good things with any bandage they can find, but they'd still want the good bandages if they can get them.  With the current formula, as you've explained it.  A total noob and a master healer will peak at the same effectiveness point with a poor bandage.  Granted the master will have a better chance of succeeding at getting some result, but the difference between success and failure may be minimal.

It would seem odd to say, "Oh, all you have is a scrap of cloth?  Might as well let new boots there try."  On the contrary, a Master can work wonders in even the worst of situations.
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Tisiphone

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2017, 10:11:54 AM »
After playing with this a bit:

I think successfully bandaging with any bandage should enable regeneration of HP from below the normal hp-regen spot. The worse the bandage, the slower the regen, but it should still work.

There are two uses of bandages I can see right now:
  • enabling/increasing hp regen
  • allowing the recovery of hp from negative numbers

Even assuming low-quality bandages work for the latter, that's an extremely niche case. Awesome, yes, but not going to come up but seldom.

As it stands now, there's more-or-less a hard cutoff: bandages above a certain quality are useful, and bandages below a certain quality give you a cool appendix in your assess and mdesc. So instead of using bandages, if I can't rustle up bandages of that quality or higher, I'm going to go sleep, without bandaging. Low quality bandages are useless.

If low-quality bandages enable hp regen below the threshold, then they become useful again. I will probably still sleep, because in my vision low-quality bandages will also only allow very, very slow hp regen - for the lowest quality, you may only get 10 hp over the course of the bandage timer, for example. But the difference is, I may still use them for their coded benefit, whereas now all they're for is practicing the bandage skill.
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nessalin

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Re: Bandage
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2017, 10:40:18 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback.

For the initial change over a concerted effort was made to keep things simple. Obviously a great many ideas got put by the side or shelved.

For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

After that more complicated changes will start getting worked in.

Tisiphone

  • Posts: 3626
Re: Bandage
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2017, 10:42:44 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback.

For the initial change over a concerted effort was made to keep things simple. Obviously a great many ideas got put by the side or shelved.

For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

After that more complicated changes will start getting worked in.

Thanks to you and all others involved for working to make this, and for considering player input to help make it better.
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whitt

  • Posts: 1625
Re: Bandage
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2017, 10:44:56 AM »
For the time being it will likely remain mostly as it is now, although changing the regeneration numbers and the threshold for sleep-healing will be adjusted until we're happy with it.

Righto.  Thank you for a great code change!
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