Author Topic: Staff, I want an open dialogue.  (Read 15158 times)

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2017, 07:10:38 PM »

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6450
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Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2017, 07:10:59 PM »
Right now, I feel as certain GDBers are about as hostile towards Asche as Shadowboarders are towards staff. Can't we just have a civil discussion about player numbers and how to improve them?  ::)

Do we really have to pick on this guy and have massive quote boxes all over the thread instead of trying to actually discuss something that affects all of us (active player numbers)?

Come on, guys, you are better than this.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2017, 07:12:16 PM »
Even if the breach you note was done with intent to harm others, which I don't see any evidence of, it would be a few members, and not necessarily embody the will of that board. A lot of people on the shadowboard just want answers to their questions that aren't 'find out IC! :)', or a place to talk about a bad move without feeling like they'll lose all their karma for doing so. As to how it could be done, I suggested they approach, let the owner know who they are, and start a thread. If thats not an option, and this account continues to exist, I'll probably make a thread on the Shadowboard asking for their questions, filter them to the useful ones to provoke a dialogue, and post them here. I want to see this game improve, and I'm going to take the steps I can to see that happen.

So this 'is' then a dialogue between staff and jcarter's forums? Then in my personal opinion? No. Let's not have that dialogue. Any action that involves the word "breach", or "hack" in it, is by its own very definition harmful. It is actually a very sad and disappointing experiment. On one hand we have a very heavily moderated forum. On another we have a non-moderated forum in its entirety. Are human beings capable of acting civil and self administrating without a big heavy axe over their heads? That hack/breach and following jeering support of that hack/breach answers that question.

Which is in my opinion very disappointing to me. I am by my own very nature, very liberal and abhor any sort of external moderation. I also enjoy the idea of having a method of critique outside the control of the one being criticized. But that method is not Jcarter's forums, for it exhausted it's capital of being neutral by validating hostile actions directed towards the game.

I like the idea of a dialogue though. I too have noticed a drop in the playerbase lately and would love to figure a way to fix it. I would just prefer this dialogue to happen without acknowledging those that by their actions, or direct and indirect support of these actions, have lost their right of being acknowledged.    Not sure if this sentiment makes any sense to anyone. It's just my own personal opinion.

I don't really agree with the concept of people who have 'lost their right to be acknowledged'. If Literal Hitler spent 10 years on this game, I'd feel the need to give them a chance were I running it. Thats just my own view. Making ill-willed villain out of the entire shadowboard is no different than making villains out of staff. At the end of the day, we're all regular human beings who have a common interest in the bettering of the game, and probably want to see it prosper. Theres really not a better common ground to work from.

there are people on that board who have repeatedly expressed their desire to negatively impact the game and that their only wish is to watch it burn

I'm going to ask for a source to even one person on the board explicitly saying they hope the game fails. Most of the board loves Arm, even if they do despise the staff.

Melkor

  • Posts: 896
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2017, 07:18:28 PM »
So, you want us to comb through the verboden board to give you a source of them being malicious? No.
All that is gold does not glitter,
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The old that is strong does not wither,
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SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1338
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2017, 07:19:46 PM »
I'm no longer a member of that board, and yet, I have at least one friend there.  I honestly don't know the identities of people who post there, but I feel at times they've been right, and they've been wrong, too.  It's just people, don't be so goddamn sycophantic.  Maybe addressing the playerbase as a whole is a healthier alternative for the game, re: bans, but as far as I'm concerned, the whole us vs them, staff vs shadow, whatever the hell you call this cognitive dissonance of an online argument, whatever it is, is not healthy, and I'm sure it's high time grown adults had a conversation with likewise grown adults and get the fuck over some shit.
Where it will go

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2017, 07:20:26 PM »
Right now, I feel as certain GDBers are about as hostile towards Asche as Shadowboarders are towards staff. Can't we just have a civil discussion about player numbers and how to improve them?  ::)

Do we really have to pick on this guy and have massive quote boxes all over the thread instead of trying to actually discuss something that affects all of us (active player numbers)?

Come on, guys, you are better than this.

I'm trying to back out, I really am. It took me a moment to find the appropriate meme to express my insanity, and I am now having a cigarette and trying to cool down. I have really strong feelings about this, and, because of that, am perhaps not the best person to talk to him.

You're right though, player retention is really important. Phew, not one insult. I made it.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2017, 07:26:11 PM »
So, you want us to comb through the verboden board to give you a source of them being malicious? No.

If its actually repeatedly expressed, it wouldn't be difficult. Hell, they've got a search option. The point is, most of the board would be happy to see Arm shift gears in a better direction. And if they saw that we were working towards that, a not-insignificant number of them would likely show interest in the game again. Many of them are skilled roleplayers, former movers and shakers within our community, who were heading plots before I was even playing. We'd benefit from having them back in-game.

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2017, 07:34:53 PM »
Why uh... Why do you think Arm isn't heading in a good direction? What's going on that's making you think it's getting worse, and not better?
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2017, 07:36:48 PM »
Why uh... Why do you think Arm isn't heading in a good direction? What's going on that's making you think it's getting worse, and not better?

A declining playerbase and a lack of retention?

WarriorPoet

  • Posts: 4482
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2017, 07:44:25 PM »
People cry too much, here and there.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Wa.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

Feco

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2017, 07:57:35 PM »
People cry too much, here and there.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Wa.

Yeah, y'all just need to get back to the muthafuckas and the bone swordz and all that jazz.
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Vote at TMC

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2017, 07:58:27 PM »
Why uh... Why do you think Arm isn't heading in a good direction? What's going on that's making you think it's getting worse, and not better?

A declining playerbase and a lack of retention?

I'm not certain that's happening in substantial numbers, and if it is, (which I still doubt) there can be more reasons than 'Arm is getting worse'. One explanation could be the decline in text-games period. I've seen just as many 'Hi, I'm a newbie and ...' posts as I have 'I'm a veteran player, goodbye', and the farewell posts are usually quoting reasons like life, work, and kids as reasons for them leaving.

The only positive thing I can say in response right now is I'm glad you're trying and, that said, I'm bowing out of this conversation before I further validate Akaramu's concerns, unless I see some other constructive criticisms I can respond to.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8260
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2017, 08:00:10 PM »
I won't dispute that player numbers are down (we're averaging mid30s from 50s a year or so ago), but I think it's arguable that it's solely due to any sort of staff attitude or widespread persecution. I think a lot of people who go to the shadowboards are definitely prone to acting the martyr, but I don't think they're the majority of players who no longer play.

The question is "Why are player numbers down," not "Why are staff driving players away." The latter is only a partial answer applicable to some players (with varying degrees of justification from both sides. I know plenty of people who have some cognitive dissonance, complaining about staff actions when they themselves admit to doing rule-breaking behavior).
Quote from: janeshephard
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azuriolinist

  • Posts: 334
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2017, 08:00:21 PM »
O-kay.

I think that some of you were focusing way too much on other things Asche have said, rather than what he's been trying to say is his point, which is to open up a dialogue between staff and players who have felt spited (Shadowboarders?). That'd be a commendable move, in my opinion. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's an idea that wouldn't end in splinters, in the end. These are past players who have felt spurned (reasonably or not, I've only ever seen a single perspective) and have been feeling so for, I don't know, years by now.

I've seen some hostility towards staff from the shadow boards. Discussion is healthy as long as it's kept civil and both sides have the other side's perspective in mind. It might be unfair to say this, but some certain folks might not be able to keep things polite.

Maybe it'd be better to personally speak with some of these ex-players, privately (email, etc.). I know that's much to ask for, though, so never mind that.

Anyway, I have a question for you, Asche (and I'm sorry if it's already been answered and I completely missed it!): What would this dialogue be about, preferably, if it were to be opened?

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6450
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Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2017, 08:00:42 PM »
Why uh... Why do you think Arm isn't heading in a good direction? What's going on that's making you think it's getting worse, and not better?

A declining playerbase and a lack of retention?

Why do you think the playerbase is declining? What could staff (and players) do to bring the numbers back up?

It seems maybe a little too easy to assume that the closure of Tuluk has something to do with it. As far as I know, numbers were already dwindling before Tuluk's closure, which is at least part of the reason it was made unavailable for play.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8260
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2017, 08:01:51 PM »
I'm also going to take a bold stance and say no Staff will respond to this thread until it's time to lock it. Because why should they? Staff have always maintained that the best place to have an open dialogue is the request tool, and that if you don't believe that (as Asche does not, thinking it'd just get them banned) then Staff is not under any obligation to come to you.
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Persona for GDB use only. Results in game may vary.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8260
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2017, 08:06:29 PM »

It seems maybe a little too easy to assume that the closure of Tuluk has something to do with it. As far as I know, numbers were already dwindling before Tuluk's closure, which is at least part of the reason it was made unavailable for play.

Numbers actually shot up after Tuluk's closure. Personally I believe this is because there were world-changing and publicized events in game. People were interested to see what was going on, and glad to find they could become involved in things relatively easily. That surge has faded over time.

I think there's also a malaise in certain parts of the playerbase/game world that nothing can actually get done by players and/or that Staff are not interested in supporting that part of the world. This is particularly worrisome to me as it has a lot of potential to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Players don't feel like they can do anything or that nothing happens, stop logging in, and miss the opportunities that Staff are actually giving them. Staff get discouraged at lack of Player uptake of their opportunities and stop providing them. More players think nothing happens or can happen, rinse repeat...

My advice would be to cut back on OOC discussion of the game (including the forums) because it just invariably leads to demoralizing discussions, at least in my experience. Ironically, you'd also miss out on some rather unpleasant or demoralizing staff attitudes displayed on the GDB in the last couple of months.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:10:21 PM by BadSkeelz »
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Persona for GDB use only. Results in game may vary.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2017, 08:08:34 PM »
O-kay.

I think that some of you were focusing way too much on other things Asche have said, rather than what he's been trying to say is his point, which is to open up a dialogue between staff and players who have felt spited (Shadowboarders?). That'd be a commendable move, in my opinion. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's an idea that wouldn't end in splinters, in the end. These are past players who have felt spurned (reasonably or not, I've only ever seen a single perspective) and have been feeling so for, I don't know, years by now.

I've seen some hostility towards staff from the shadow boards. Discussion is healthy as long as it's kept civil and both sides have the other side's perspective in mind. It might be unfair to say this, but some certain folks might not be able to keep things polite.

Maybe it'd be better to personally speak with some of these ex-players, privately (email, etc.). I know that's much to ask for, though, so never mind that.

Anyway, I have a question for you, Asche (and I'm sorry if it's already been answered and I completely missed it!): What would this dialogue be about, preferably, if it were to be opened?

I'm not the person who knows all the concerns of the players on that board, and I don't have the perspective of the staff nor experience with the game to know what all the most pressing issues are. Players banned three years ago after an RPT may not care much about Tuluk's closure. I'd imagine it would be a sort of 'ask us anything' on their board, with responses not being passive aggressive. Not consoling or yielding, either. Just honest discourse about what happened, why, etc. If that doesn't happen, and I don't get banned, I'll probably just come to them and openly ask what they'd like to address with staff, openly. Then I'd post it here. I genuinely think that if staff at least portrays itself as approachable, and looking to mend this, a bunch of players will come with open arms. Not all. Maybe not most. But enough to get a handful of good players more active? I'm almost certain.

Dar

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2017, 08:10:29 PM »
hrm. At the risk of getting a, "Why dont you do that yourself statement", I think it would be nice to have someone post a "What questions/issues would you want discussed if a Staff/Player Meeting were to happen. A separate thread not polluted by shadow board, but one that addresses a real issue.

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 744
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2017, 08:14:26 PM »
I don't understand why people are even upset by Asche's request. This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to ask and he's being incredibly respectful.
Even though someone doesn't agree with your opinion on matters, doesn't mean they should be spoken down to because it 'hurts your fee fees'.
I think the game is doing great, but if he feels like it's going down for some reason, maybe it would be better to understand why people who dislike the game dislike it and why they aren't playing anymore, if it's the case.
I mean, jeez, Asche just wants an open conversation. Stop shitposting.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2017, 08:45:47 PM »
Why uh... Why do you think Arm isn't heading in a good direction? What's going on that's making you think it's getting worse, and not better?

A declining playerbase and a lack of retention?

Why do you think the playerbase is declining? What could staff (and players) do to bring the numbers back up?

It seems maybe a little too easy to assume that the closure of Tuluk has something to do with it. As far as I know, numbers were already dwindling before Tuluk's closure, which is at least part of the reason it was made unavailable for play.

What I'm about to say actually IS colored by my own perceptions, so take it with a grain of salt. But I think it also applies to a lot of people. The GDB is, quite frankly, a little stifling. Anyone who has played this game for any length of time knows that your karma can be taken away, or your account banned if staff considers you a 'troll,' and while I do think they've gotten better about that sort of thing, I think anyone being honest knows that censorship through punishment is a very common tactic on the GDB. The fact that someone had to make a shadowboard that houses the majority of existing criticisms about the game kinda proves that.

From a non-staff criticism that would be impacting retention, the ambiguity in Arm's mechanics is a MAJOR factor. I'm very happy to see the skills, general rank and maximum potential listed in the new help files for subguilds, but the fact is, the bulk of the game has a series of advantages established players have over new ones, and questions are often redirected to a 'find out IC <3' that is more frustrating than anything, particularly when the question is one that is basically impossible to phrase IC. Seriously, what advantages do I get knowing the skill list of a warrior, and what branches when, and what the kick skill does mechanically, other than getting to plan out the character I want and knowing what I'll get? And yet, posting that information is a bannable offense in a game already dwindling in active players? Its absurd. The advantage of already knowing where to get free water and which clans provide which options is already strong enough, but with advanced subguilds, elementalist subguilds and basic knowledge hidden behind a wall of vagueness, its harder than ever in the history of arm to be a new player and still be competitive. Theres a gap that WILL affect your competency and is made even wider through intentional obfuscation. When I joined, a warrior was a warrior. Now, that assassin may have a subguild that lets him start with parry, or magically heal his wounds. As a brand new player, why would I play a game that doesn't seem to want to let me catch up, and labels me a villain for daring to ask someone who already knows?

And, if I'm on the shadowboard, which I almost certainly am just by searching for Arm forum, why would I stay in a game where a player who has been at it for ten years is claiming he was banned just for being found out her visited this forum?

Large Hero

  • Posts: 561
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2017, 09:15:28 PM »
with advanced subguilds, elementalist subguilds and basic knowledge hidden behind a wall of vagueness, its harder than ever in the history of arm to be a new player and still be competitive.

Here's a major hitch in your perspective. If you are playing Armageddon to be 'competitive,' you are playing the wrong game. This is not a competitive game. This is a collaborative game. If your goal in playing is to 'win,' or be better than other players (as opposed to characters, for the sake of story), or to defeat players, as opposed to your goal being to create a better collaborative roleplaying experience for you and your fellow players, you're doing yourself and them a disservice.

If you would like to experience a competitive thrill through gaming, I suggest you play games such as chess, basketball, organized jiu-jitsu, Magic: the Gathering, Dota 2, Settlers of Catan, or other games designed to be competitive. You'll have more fun.

I don't think the game's mechanical opacity drives away new players we very much want to keep. People aren't playing MUDs in 2017 to have an amazing coded/PvE/PvP experience. People play MMOs for that (or other games that are designed for it, such as some I just listed). The newbies we want are those who are interested in roleplaying.

The extension of the above as it applies to your thread and OP: a community focused on becoming codedly powerful, competition, what PCs are codedly strongest, plot spoilers (I have personally had the then-current activities of at least one of my characters spoiled on the jcarter forum) and so on, has no legitimacy as a representative forum for a game that is really about collaboration and roleplaying.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 09:19:59 PM by Large Hero »
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SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1338
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2017, 09:16:58 PM »
I don't have a dog in this fight, but you've gotta love the cunty replies.  Some of you have zero backbone, and for that, there should be a reckoning -- even if it's with yours truly.

Modified to also agree with Large Hero.  I will admit some bias because he's a true friend of mine, but one thing I know about LH, when he's not raging mad, he's talking straight sense.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 09:18:59 PM by SuchDragonWow »
Where it will go

Vex

  • Posts: 35
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2017, 09:28:31 PM »
"Mortals do drown so."

Harmless

  • Posts: 2637
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2017, 09:39:59 PM »
Y'know, if you think some kinda IG mechanic should be public knowledge, submit a request or an idea in game.

I had some damn good times recently being ignorant of what skills I would get, though. It felt kind of like I was getting a random subguild, with the touched guild I picked. It was still a great roleplaying experience though, and honestly one I never would have had if I had known what skills I would get with the touched subguild.

What that makes me want, though, is more flexibility and perhaps randomness in character creation, with the subguilds.

Staff can choose to update these helpfiles in the future. They have shown many times that they can do that.

with advanced subguilds, elementalist subguilds and basic knowledge hidden behind a wall of vagueness, its harder than ever in the history of arm to be a new player and still be competitive.

Here's a major hitch in your perspective. If you are playing Armageddon to be 'competitive,' you are playing the wrong game. This is not a competitive game. This is a collaborative game. If your goal in playing is to 'win,' or be better than other players (as opposed to characters, for the sake of story), or to defeat players, as opposed to your goal being to create a better collaborative roleplaying experience for you and your fellow players, you're doing yourself and them a disservice.

If you would like to experience a competitive thrill through gaming, I suggest you play games such as chess, basketball, organized jiu-jitsu, Magic: the Gathering, Dota 2, Settlers of Catan, or other games designed to be competitive. You'll have more fun.

I don't think the game's mechanical opacity drives away new players we very much want to keep. People aren't playing MUDs in 2017 to have an amazing coded/PvE/PvP experience. People play MMOs for that (or other games that are designed for it, such as some I just listed). The newbies we want are those who are interested in roleplaying.

The extension of the above as it applies to your thread and OP: a community focused on becoming codedly powerful, competition, what PCs are codedly strongest, plot spoilers (I have personally had the then-current activities of at least one of my characters spoiled on the jcarter forum) and so on, has no legitimacy as a representative forum for a game that is really about collaboration and roleplaying.

This is the most important post so far, basically encapsulates the root of the problem: people being immature about some pretty simple house rules that staff wants to keep, and which I can agree with. If you disagree with the rules so much you don't want to play and choose to remain banned.. then, that's your choice. The rest of us continue to function fine in game without having all those IG secrets spoiled for us.
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