Author Topic: Staff, I want an open dialogue.  (Read 15313 times)

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:09:22 PM »
Hi, I'm Asche. I've just recently returned to the game after getting burnt out, and its been my longest break in a while. But, on an off, Arm has been a part of my life for almost five years now. I don't really agree with the directions its been going in the last couple years especially, and I think the declining playerbase might be an indicator of that. But here is the thing: I genuinely love this game, and I sincerely want to see it have a Renaissance. But I don't think its on the track for one.

Now for the bit that will likely get me banned. I'm a member of the shadowboard. Not a prominent one, I'm mainly a lurker, but I found them pretty shortly after finding Arm, and I keep up with them because, to be frank, I wanted to discuss Arm in a setting that felt less policed. And really, how could I not have found them? They're the first result when you type in 'Armageddon Mud Forums.' Unlike many of the people on that forum, I don't really feel spite against staff. And thats what I feel it is, honestly. Its not an organized vendetta, its a bunch of passive aggressive nerds who feel, justified or not, slighted by the community that they came to love, and want to be able to discuss it openly without the fear of reprisal. And thats important, because I feel like if the staff were more open with the playerbase, there wouldn't even BE a shadowboard.

I don't think staff are villains, and I understand that feeling attacked for every effort and hounded for every mistake would be grating to even the best-natured people. To come up with a plot and then have it mocked incessantly because it wasn't novel-quality, turned into a meme of terrible storytelling? Thats gotta feel pretty shitty. But, and this is important, I think this highly negative sentiment is the product of many years of growing distance between the staff and the playerbase, a perception of apathy and condescension from on high that is only going to naturally culminate in condescension. Not once, in the years I've been on this forum, have I ever seen staff, individually or collectively come forward and say, "We're sorry." I don't really think anyone expects staff to be perfect, and theres going to be complainers even if you are. But all we, as players, want to know is that you care, not just about the game in a meta sense, but about the people who are giving countless hours of their lives to this game. A simple acknowledgement when a mistake is made, and a promise to try to do better, or to take the game in a new direction, would do WONDERS. Instead, you actively ban people who have played the game for years just because they went to a forum where they can say the things you won't allow them to.

I consider myself a neutral party. No staff has ever attacked me, and the biggest slight I've ever got from them is being denied karma, or being a bit pedantic. I don't really have a problem with any of you. But I know there is a community that does, and they didn't pop out of nowhere. And yeah, they can be reactionary, defeatist, and even cruel. But you're not serving the best interests of the game by hunting them. I want this game to be around in ten years. I want to see it improve, to the point I'm willing to risk my account being deleted just to talk about it. I want a real dialogue between this community and those who feel scorned by it. Because the truth is, we're the same community, just fractured by perceived injustices. And whether they are baseless or not, we don't help the situation by not addressing them openly. Make an account on the Shadowboard. One openly staff. Just talk to them, without any aggression, and I think you'll be surprised by how easily this community improves. I know they'll be surprised to see you.

Malken

  • Posts: 9045
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 05:23:44 PM »
WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH CYBER ASCII TERRORISTS

For every person who'd be willing to partake in civil discourse, you have 10 jcarters who can't afford their meds and would be frothing at the mouth.

At least here all of us who can't afford our meds are safely caged up.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 05:28:54 PM »
WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH CYBER ASCII TERRORISTS

For every person who'd be willing to partake in civil discourse, you have 10 jcarters who can't afford their meds and would be frothing at the mouth.

At least here all of us who can't afford our meds are safely caged up.

Even if that were true, and we both know its an exaggeration I think, thats 1/11 people on that board who might feel reinvigorated to come back to the game. And the people who aren't on that board but feeling disheartened by the current state of it not leaving. Even as a purely cynical PR move, it makes sense. We can treat each other like human beings, and the game will improve for it.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8261
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 05:35:20 PM »
Sounds like pretty standard victim complex stuff. Get over yourselves and play for your own enjoyment, you'll have more fun.
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Persona for GDB use only. Results in game may vary.

Malken

  • Posts: 9045
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 05:35:52 PM »
WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH CYBER ASCII TERRORISTS

For every person who'd be willing to partake in civil discourse, you have 10 jcarters who can't afford their meds and would be frothing at the mouth.

At least here all of us who can't afford our meds are safely caged up.

Even if that were true, and we both know its an exaggeration I think, thats 1/11 people on that board who might feel reinvigorated to come back to the game. And the people who aren't on that board but feeling disheartened by the current state of it not leaving. Even as a purely cynical PR move, it makes sense. We can treat each other like human beings, and the game will improve for it.

Yeah, they should give it a shot just to see how quickly it turns into a shitshow and then we'd know once and for all how impossible communication between both asylums are. I'm picturing the underground courtroom presided by Scarecrow in Dark Knight Rises.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6460
    • Anathema Web Serial
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 05:43:20 PM »
Sounds like pretty standard victim complex stuff. Get over yourselves and play for your own enjoyment, you'll have more fun.

I think everyone already does this, or tries best as they can. Why else would anyone play a game? For most of us, though, this isn't just any game - it elicits a great deal of emotion, positive and negative, for many different reasons. I don't know about you, but I've never cried over stuff that happened in World of Warcraft. This is what makes Armageddon MUD unique, and awesome. It's also what makes players be vocal, and frustrated, and stubborn at times. And what makes them come back after ten year breaks. Because they care.

I'd like to see where this thread goes before I say anything else... or not. I hope it stays civil and doesn't have to get locked.

Melkor

  • Posts: 900
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 05:49:10 PM »
I contend that more dialogue is always better than less.

That being said, I think that the staff contribute a great deal of blood, sweat, and tears to all of us who play. I think asking for an apology for something non-specific is a little ridiculous. I am not saying they are perfect, but nobody is. I think their efforts in making this game the amazing ride that it is more than make up for whatever issues a person could have with them.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 05:56:14 PM »
I contend that more dialogue is always better than less.

That being said, I think that the staff contribute a great deal of blood, sweat, and tears to all of us who play. I think asking for an apology for something non-specific is a little ridiculous. I am not saying they are perfect, but nobody is. I think their efforts in making this game the amazing ride that it is more than make up for whatever issues a person could have with them.

Wasn't really demanding they make some broad apology so much as noting I've never seen them offer one, even right after something happened that the vast majority of the playerbase disapproved of, or in hindsight of a poor move on their part. And never acknowledging fault is kind of a big deal in terms of relationships, no matter how much one 'contributes.' The fact of the matter is, the game is suffering, and people are leaving. Guilt trips, passive aggression and manhunts aren't what we need right now, coming from ANYONE. I empathize with the people who spend a ton of effort making this game run. I also empathize with they people who have played this game twice as long as me and given countless hours of fun, comedy and drama to other players who are permanently banned because they participate in a forum that isn't sanctioned from on high. These things are not mutually exclusive, and decrying either one isn't the right path to take.

Dar

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 05:59:11 PM »
In part staff tended to do this on occasion via Ath's threads.   Having an open conversation with the playerbase, I mean.


But in all honesty. Jcarter's forum participants have lost any of my sympathetic neutrality when they began posting information that was the result of a hack/direct breach of promise. At that point they turned from a fringe society of disgruntled, but still regular people, to a group that wishes the game ill. And if you choose to participate there, you are validating their actions.

How do you envision this dialogue? Between whom? Clearly not you and staff, because then you'd have this conversation in a request tool. Do you want another one of those player meetings on IRC that they periodically host?

I really enjoyed Ath's threads. Those should have been real eye openers for both players and staff. Whether players and staff have drawn good conclusions from them I cannot judge. A dialogue is always good. But personally? In my non-staff opinion? A dialogue between staff and participants of Jcarter's forums would too validate the unrepented hacking of the website/blatant leak. 

Jingo

  • Posts: 4791
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 06:03:00 PM »
There is going to be a social cost to being a part of that community whether you like it or not. Is everyone there an asshole? Maybe not all of them. But the open disregard for the rules of the game, petty personal attacks, attempts at cyberbullying and the all around shitty attitude gives it the reputation it deserves.

And I say that as a guy that's got a tonne of unresolved beef with staff.
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6460
    • Anathema Web Serial
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 06:06:54 PM »
I think 'why have player numbers dropped, and what can we all do about it?' would be a valid topic for discussion. As long as it stays civil. Because the game needs good players, and good players in turn become future staffers who keep the game running. Maybe I spent too much time working in customer retention but this particular issue is close to my heart.

Let's not make this thread about that other forum. I doubt anything good would come from that kind of discussion.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2017, 06:08:33 PM »
In part staff tended to do this on occasion via Ath's threads.   Having an open conversation with the playerbase, I mean.


But in all honesty. Jcarter's forum participants have lost any of my sympathetic neutrality when they began posting information that was the result of a hack/direct breach of promise. At that point they turned from a fringe society of disgruntled, but still regular people, to a group that wishes the game ill. And if you choose to participate there, you are validating their actions.

How do you envision this dialogue? Between whom? Clearly not you and staff, because then you'd have this conversation in a request tool. Do you want another one of those player meetings on IRC that they periodically host?

I really enjoyed Ath's threads. Those should have been real eye openers for both players and staff. Whether players and staff have drawn good conclusions from them I cannot judge. A dialogue is always good. But personally? In my non-staff opinion? A dialogue between staff and participants of Jcarter's forums would too validate the unrepented hacking of the website/blatant leak.

To be completely frank, if I went the route of making this a private message, I'm certain the chances of me getting banned with no response would rise to about 100%. By letting people see this, and asking openly, I at least make their response public. You can call that manipulation, but I'm genuinely just asking to be heard without being instantly banned. Even if the breach you note was done with intent to harm others, which I don't see any evidence of, it would be a few members, and not necessarily embody the will of that board. A lot of people on the shadowboard just want answers to their questions that aren't 'find out IC! :)', or a place to talk about a bad move without feeling like they'll lose all their karma for doing so. As to how it could be done, I suggested they approach, let the owner know who they are, and start a thread. If thats not an option, and this account continues to exist, I'll probably make a thread on the Shadowboard asking for their questions, filter them to the useful ones to provoke a dialogue, and post them here. I want to see this game improve, and I'm going to take the steps I can to see that happen.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8261
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2017, 06:14:01 PM »
There's that victim complex I was talking about again.

I think 'why have player numbers dropped, and what can we all do about it?' would be a valid topic for discussion. As long as it stays civil. Because the game needs good players, and good players in turn become future staffers who keep the game running. Maybe I spent too much time working in customer retention but this particular issue is close to my heart.

Let's not make this thread about that other forum. I doubt anything good would come from that kind of discussion.

Agreed, but it would need to be a new thread. This one's irrevocably about another topic (i.e. "Why are staff so mean to me").
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Persona for GDB use only. Results in game may vary.

Melkor

  • Posts: 900
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 06:18:18 PM »
Agreed, but it would need to be a new thread. This one's irrevocably about another topic (i.e. "Why are staff so mean to me").

LOL!

Be nice, Skeelz. :P
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2017, 06:20:33 PM »
There's that victim complex I was talking about again.

I think 'why have player numbers dropped, and what can we all do about it?' would be a valid topic for discussion. As long as it stays civil. Because the game needs good players, and good players in turn become future staffers who keep the game running. Maybe I spent too much time working in customer retention but this particular issue is close to my heart.

Let's not make this thread about that other forum. I doubt anything good would come from that kind of discussion.


Agreed, but it would need to be a new thread. This one's irrevocably about another topic (i.e. "Why are staff so mean to me").

I've already noted I've never had a problem with staff. Other people have. This is about the game being in decline, and hopefully catching it before it passes a point of no return. I think this is an effective way to do so. Actively removing experienced players because of who they associate with out of character is about the worst possible move I can imagine to promote retention. My position is, if we want Arm around in a decade, not a shadow of its former self, things need to change, and people need to stop feeling alienated. The Shadowboard is what we need to address to tackle that. Its not a separate issue.

HavokBlue

  • Helper
  • Posts: 6445
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2017, 06:32:37 PM »
Unless there's been a change in staff policy recently, you're not going to get banned for saying you went on the evil-GDB.

I haven't peeked at that swamp since sometime last year but I recall a whole bunch of people who weren't interested in a discussion and attacked anyone who said anything positive about the game.

Any good faith effort by staff (last year's Tablelands plot, playable gith, etc?) gets dismantled and denigrated. Nothing is viewed through the lens of "wow look, they're trying to do something neat for us." It's all viewed through forty layers of cynicism and salt.

The real kicker is when the game staff are viewed as a monolith who are somehow accountable for all the actions of every past staffer. You're mad that someone six years ago docked your karma for something you don't agree with even though they haven't been on the staff team in years? Better hold that grudge forever! (this is a hypothetical example)
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2017, 06:41:19 PM »
Ugh. I urge staff not to respond to this. You can ask me why, but I'm not sure I have a better answer than the taste of Asche in my mouth is awful.

There's not a real request buried in the original post up there. Beyond the vague desire for staff to make 'A simple acknowledgement when a mistake is made, a promise to try and do better, or to take the game in a new direction'

I've seen staff acknowledge mistakes, are they apologizing to YOU for denying you karma, or being pedantic? They shouldn't have to.

You want a promise to try and do better? I don't think people who ARE trying and succeeding in doing better need to make a promise to better. Now who's being pedantic.

And just because you don't like the direction 'it's been going' in the last couple years doesn't mean you can justifiably ignore that fact that IS going a new direction in your next paragraph down. Stuff's changing, awesome stuff imo, I've seen a lot of code changes be added, so many that I haven't even been able to try all of the new stuff that's come out. In fact, just today some shit went down that I started to get pissed about. Something disappeared under my nose, and my first instinct was 'Great, something profitable and fun for me just got ret-conned' and I had to step back and realize /that/ was reactionary, and may not be the case at all. I'm going to 'open a dialogue' with them in a report since it's IC sensitive info, and find out whether or not I'm blowing it out of proportion. Fuck, for all I know, they may be trying to rope me into a plot since I pr... why am I explaining myself to you?

My Main Argument: You're asking for stuff that's already there, AND claiming to be a neutral party asking for staff to open a discussion with those who feel slighted. Not you, someone else.

And how should they do this? You're asking them to access a site that's known to be malicious, and not just troll-filled and flamey, but Actively, illegally, 'dangerous to your computer' malicious.

Here's the thing, every single one of us, perhaps staff too, can be, in your own words, 'reactionary, defeatist, and cruel' ESPECIALLY ME, but, and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have all the details on this, didn't they engage in criminal activity /against/ staff and players here?

I don't see any dignity in your requests, Asche, and I think staff opening a dialogue here, or on jkcarter's forums would just be an attempt to add dignity where there is none. If there's people on those boards who truly want to speak freely, AND engage in a healthy discourse with staff, I suggest they create their own forums, and attempt to do so there.

Krath, I shouldn't have to feel like there's a chance I might get hacked just because I'm speaking so vehemently against them, does that make sense to you? Staff have never wronged me to the point I feel actually threatened.

Edited to add:

I'm so angry about this that I could:
A) start my own forums
B) Bitch, whine, and complain for six pages
C) Hack your computer and violate the law and your privacy
D) Only A and B because no matter how much I disagree with someone I can still RESPECT them at the same time, which is the basis for any rational, productive dialogue, the kind you're trying to ask for currently.
E) Continue trying to explain this at the sake of my own sanity.

The answer is D.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:44:50 PM by Raptor_Dan »
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 06:45:57 PM »
Ugh. I urge staff not to respond to this. You can ask me why, but I'm not sure I have a better answer than the taste of Asche in my mouth is awful.

There's not a real request buried in the original post up there. Beyond the vague desire for staff to make 'A simple acknowledgement when a mistake is made, a promise to try and do better, or to take the game in a new direction'

I've seen staff acknowledge mistakes, are they apologizing to YOU for denying you karma, or being pedantic? They shouldn't have to.

You want a promise to try and do better? I don't think people who ARE trying and succeeding in doing better need to make a promise to better. Now who's being pedantic.

And just because you don't like the direction 'it's been going' in the last couple years doesn't mean you can justifiably ignore that fact that IS going a new direction in your next paragraph down. Stuff's changing, awesome stuff imo, I've seen a lot of code changes be added, so many that I haven't even been able to try all of the new stuff that's come out. In fact, just today some shit went down that I started to get pissed about. Something disappeared under my nose, and my first instinct was 'Great, something profitable and fun for me just got ret-conned' and I had to step back and realize /that/ was reactionary, and may not be the case at all. I'm going to 'open a dialogue' with them in a report since it's IC sensitive info, and find out whether or not I'm blowing it out of proportion. Fuck, for all I know, they may be trying to rope me into a plot since I pr... why am I explaining myself to you?

My Main Argument: You're asking for stuff that's already there, AND claiming to be a neutral party asking for staff to open a discussion with those who feel slighted. Not you, someone else.

And how should they do this? You're asking them to access a site that's known to be malicious, and not just troll-filled and flamey, but Actively, illegally, 'dangerous to your computer' malicious.

Here's the thing, every single one of us, perhaps staff too, can be, in your own words, 'reactionary, defeatist, and cruel' ESPECIALLY ME, but, and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have all the details on this, didn't they engage in criminal activity /against/ staff and players here?

I don't see any dignity in your requests, Asche, and I think staff opening a dialogue here, or on jkcarter's forums would just be an attempt to add dignity where there is none. If there's people on those boards who truly want to speak freely, AND engage in a healthy discourse with staff, I suggest they create their own forums, and attempt to do so there.

Krath, I shouldn't have to feel like there's a chance I might get hacked just because I'm speaking so vehemently against them, does that make sense to you? Staff have never wronged me to the point I feel actually threatened.

I'm... kind of confused where you're getting any of that from what I wrote. I mean, I pretty clearly spelled out what I was advocating for. Making an account on the shadow board and hashing things out like adults. Where people are getting this desire for simpering apologies, I'm really not sure. Frankly, half your post seems... unrelated.

Dar

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2017, 06:46:06 PM »
Even if the breach you note was done with intent to harm others, which I don't see any evidence of, it would be a few members, and not necessarily embody the will of that board. A lot of people on the shadowboard just want answers to their questions that aren't 'find out IC! :)', or a place to talk about a bad move without feeling like they'll lose all their karma for doing so. As to how it could be done, I suggested they approach, let the owner know who they are, and start a thread. If thats not an option, and this account continues to exist, I'll probably make a thread on the Shadowboard asking for their questions, filter them to the useful ones to provoke a dialogue, and post them here. I want to see this game improve, and I'm going to take the steps I can to see that happen.

So this 'is' then a dialogue between staff and jcarter's forums? Then in my personal opinion? No. Let's not have that dialogue. Any action that involves the word "breach", or "hack" in it, is by its own very definition harmful. It is actually a very sad and disappointing experiment. On one hand we have a very heavily moderated forum. On another we have a non-moderated forum in its entirety. Are human beings capable of acting civil and self administrating without a big heavy axe over their heads? That hack/breach and following jeering support of that hack/breach answers that question.

Which is in my opinion very disappointing to me. I am by my own very nature, very liberal and abhor any sort of external moderation. I also enjoy the idea of having a method of critique outside the control of the one being criticized. But that method is not Jcarter's forums, for it exhausted it's capital of being neutral by validating hostile actions directed towards the game.

I like the idea of a dialogue though. I too have noticed a drop in the playerbase lately and would love to figure a way to fix it. I would just prefer this dialogue to happen without acknowledging those that by their actions, or direct and indirect support of these actions, have lost their right of being acknowledged.    Not sure if this sentiment makes any sense to anyone. It's just my own personal opinion.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2017, 06:52:40 PM »
Even if the breach you note was done with intent to harm others, which I don't see any evidence of, it would be a few members, and not necessarily embody the will of that board. A lot of people on the shadowboard just want answers to their questions that aren't 'find out IC! :)', or a place to talk about a bad move without feeling like they'll lose all their karma for doing so. As to how it could be done, I suggested they approach, let the owner know who they are, and start a thread. If thats not an option, and this account continues to exist, I'll probably make a thread on the Shadowboard asking for their questions, filter them to the useful ones to provoke a dialogue, and post them here. I want to see this game improve, and I'm going to take the steps I can to see that happen.

So this 'is' then a dialogue between staff and jcarter's forums? Then in my personal opinion? No. Let's not have that dialogue. Any action that involves the word "breach", or "hack" in it, is by its own very definition harmful. It is actually a very sad and disappointing experiment. On one hand we have a very heavily moderated forum. On another we have a non-moderated forum in its entirety. Are human beings capable of acting civil and self administrating without a big heavy axe over their heads? That hack/breach and following jeering support of that hack/breach answers that question.

Which is in my opinion very disappointing to me. I am by my own very nature, very liberal and abhor any sort of external moderation. I also enjoy the idea of having a method of critique outside the control of the one being criticized. But that method is not Jcarter's forums, for it exhausted it's capital of being neutral by validating hostile actions directed towards the game.

I like the idea of a dialogue though. I too have noticed a drop in the playerbase lately and would love to figure a way to fix it. I would just prefer this dialogue to happen without acknowledging those that by their actions, or direct and indirect support of these actions, have lost their right of being acknowledged.    Not sure if this sentiment makes any sense to anyone. It's just my own personal opinion.

I don't really agree with the concept of people who have 'lost their right to be acknowledged'. If Literal Hitler spent 10 years on this game, I'd feel the need to give them a chance were I running it. Thats just my own view. Making ill-willed villain out of the entire shadowboard is no different than making villains out of staff. At the end of the day, we're all regular human beings who have a common interest in the bettering of the game, and probably want to see it prosper. Theres really not a better common ground to work from.

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2017, 06:59:57 PM »
Raptor_Dan is apparently having a stroke, and would like to remind all helpers: Do not feed trolls, those who do it intentionally, nor those who have no self-awareness. It's not healthy.

Also, If you are talking with someone and that person suddenly begins to behave unusually, you may hesitate to say something. After all, you don’t want to embarrass the other person. But acting F.A.S.T. could help to save his or her life. Certain, sudden changes in behavior may be signs of a stroke. This quick tool from the American Stroke Association can help you identify a stroke in yourself or another person.

If you notice the symptoms below, dial 9-1-1 immediately and ask that the person be taken to the nearest stroke treatment center.

F – Face drooping. Is one side of the person’s face drooping or numb? When he or she smiles, is the smile uneven?
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S – Speech difficulty. Is the person’s speech suddenly slurred or hard to understand? Is he or she unable to speak? Ask the person to repeat a simple sentence. Can he or she repeat it back?
T – Time to call 9-1-1. If any of these symptoms are present, dial 9-1-1 immediately. Check the time so you can report when the symptoms began.

via Imgflip Meme Generator


Disclaimer: Raptor_Dan is not ACTUALLY having a stroke, he's just unable to deal at the moment, and chose humor, instead of blind rage.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:15:36 PM by Raptor_Dan »
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

wizturbo

  • Posts: 2476
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2017, 07:01:20 PM »
I don't want the shadowboard crowd to be happy.  I want them to go away and move on with their lives. 

I argue with staff and complain about things as much as the next guy, but I also go about it in the appropriate ways and with a respectful attitude.  We get along pretty well I think.  it's the difference between advocating as a "citizen" of Armageddon vs. giving up that citizenship up in some act of protest.  I don't have much sympathy for those who choose the later. 

If you want an open dialogue, open a request tool discussion.  You don't need "protection" by doing this kind of thing in the open, and it just makes you seem like you're after "attention" not "protection".  This is further reinforced by not stating what specific directions or choices you find objectionable that would trigger a meaningful discussion.  You want an apology?  For what?  And why does having that apology on the GDB matter to you?  These are rhetorical questions by the way...  no need to respond.

Pale Horse

  • Posts: 4425
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2017, 07:04:00 PM »
At the end of the day, we're all regular human beings who have a common interest in the bettering of the game, and probably want to see it prosper. Theres really not a better common ground to work from.

What blocks reconciliation or "betterment" of the game has to do with something which I feel is almost irreconcilable: Feelings.  Firstly and of the primary importance to all sides are how people feel.  First, people feel.  Then they think.  Then they re-act or act.  When strong feelings arise, they suck up more of our ability to act and think clearly.  We say and do things that on later reflection (if we're willing to reflect and put aside our feelings for a goal) we would never had said or done.  Such is the case between members of the respective communities.  I don't think that, as a whole, there will ever be joint agreement or work.

I kind of see it as the divide between Democrats and Republicans within the current United States.  Each side wants what is "best" for the States, but both are completely convinced that nothing the other side wants can ever be good, even if the idea is mutually shared.
Quote from: Dalmeth
I've come to the conclusion that relaxing is not the lack of doing anything, but doing something that comes easily to you.

HavokBlue

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  • Posts: 6445
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2017, 07:06:29 PM »
Even if the breach you note was done with intent to harm others, which I don't see any evidence of, it would be a few members, and not necessarily embody the will of that board. A lot of people on the shadowboard just want answers to their questions that aren't 'find out IC! :)', or a place to talk about a bad move without feeling like they'll lose all their karma for doing so. As to how it could be done, I suggested they approach, let the owner know who they are, and start a thread. If thats not an option, and this account continues to exist, I'll probably make a thread on the Shadowboard asking for their questions, filter them to the useful ones to provoke a dialogue, and post them here. I want to see this game improve, and I'm going to take the steps I can to see that happen.

So this 'is' then a dialogue between staff and jcarter's forums? Then in my personal opinion? No. Let's not have that dialogue. Any action that involves the word "breach", or "hack" in it, is by its own very definition harmful. It is actually a very sad and disappointing experiment. On one hand we have a very heavily moderated forum. On another we have a non-moderated forum in its entirety. Are human beings capable of acting civil and self administrating without a big heavy axe over their heads? That hack/breach and following jeering support of that hack/breach answers that question.

Which is in my opinion very disappointing to me. I am by my own very nature, very liberal and abhor any sort of external moderation. I also enjoy the idea of having a method of critique outside the control of the one being criticized. But that method is not Jcarter's forums, for it exhausted it's capital of being neutral by validating hostile actions directed towards the game.

I like the idea of a dialogue though. I too have noticed a drop in the playerbase lately and would love to figure a way to fix it. I would just prefer this dialogue to happen without acknowledging those that by their actions, or direct and indirect support of these actions, have lost their right of being acknowledged.    Not sure if this sentiment makes any sense to anyone. It's just my own personal opinion.

I don't really agree with the concept of people who have 'lost their right to be acknowledged'. If Literal Hitler spent 10 years on this game, I'd feel the need to give them a chance were I running it. Thats just my own view. Making ill-willed villain out of the entire shadowboard is no different than making villains out of staff. At the end of the day, we're all regular human beings who have a common interest in the bettering of the game, and probably want to see it prosper. Theres really not a better common ground to work from.

there are people on that board who have repeatedly expressed their desire to negatively impact the game and that their only wish is to watch it burn
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: Staff, I want an open dialogue.
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2017, 07:07:40 PM »
Ugh. I urge staff not to respond to this. You can ask me why, but I'm not sure I have a better answer than the taste of Asche in my mouth is awful.

There's not a real request buried in the original post up there. Beyond the vague desire for staff to make 'A simple acknowledgement when a mistake is made, a promise to try and do better, or to take the game in a new direction'

I've seen staff acknowledge mistakes, are they apologizing to YOU for denying you karma, or being pedantic[/b]? They shouldn't have to.

You want a promise to try and do better
? I don't think people who ARE trying and succeeding in doing better need to make a promise to better. Now who's being pedantic.

And just because you don't like the direction 'it's been going' in the last couple years doesn't mean you can justifiably ignore that fact that IS going a new direction in your next paragraph down. Stuff's changing, awesome stuff imo, I've seen a lot of code changes be added, so many that I haven't even been able to try all of the new stuff that's come out. In fact, just today some shit went down that I started to get pissed about. Something disappeared under my nose, and my first instinct was 'Great, something profitable and fun for me just got ret-conned' and I had to step back and realize /that/ was reactionary, and may not be the case at all. I'm going to 'open a dialogue' with them in a report since it's IC sensitive info, and find out whether or not I'm blowing it out of proportion. Fuck, for all I know, they may be trying to rope me into a plot since I pr... why am I explaining myself to you?

My Main Argument: You're asking for stuff that's already there, AND claiming to be a neutral party asking for staff to open a discussion with those who feel slighted. Not you, someone else.

And how should they do this? You're asking them to access a site that's known to be malicious, and not just troll-filled and flamey, but Actively, illegally, 'dangerous to your computer' malicious.

Here's the thing, every single one of us, perhaps staff too, can be, in your own words, 'reactionary, defeatist, and cruel' ESPECIALLY ME, but, and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have all the details on this, didn't they engage in criminal activity /against/ staff and players here?

I don't see any dignity in your requests, Asche, and I think staff opening a dialogue here, or on jkcarter's forums would just be an attempt to add dignity where there is none. If there's people on those boards who truly want to speak freely, AND engage in a healthy discourse with staff, I suggest they create their own forums, and attempt to do so there.

Krath, I shouldn't have to feel like there's a chance I might get hacked just because I'm speaking so vehemently against them, does that make sense to you? Staff have never wronged me to the point I feel actually threatened.

I'm... kind of confused where you're getting any of that from what I wrote. I mean, I pretty clearly spelled out what I was advocating for. Making an account on the shadow board and hashing things out like adults. Where people are getting this desire for simpering apologies, I'm really not sure. Frankly, half your post seems... unrelated.

Ok uh... let me try and break it down. I bolded the parts in my post above, which you quoted, and below, are parts from your post, bolded.



Hi, I'm Asche. I've just recently returned to the game after getting burnt out, and its been my longest break in a while. But, on an off, Arm has been a part of my life for almost five years now. I don't really agree with the directions its been going in the last couple years especially, and I think the declining playerbase might be an indicator of that. But here is the thing: I genuinely love this game, and I sincerely want to see it have a Renaissance. But I don't think its on the track for one.

......

 But, and this is important, I think this highly negative sentiment is the product of many years of growing distance between the staff and the playerbase, a perception of apathy and condescension from on high that is only going to naturally culminate in condescension. Not once, in the years I've been on this forum, have I ever seen staff, individually or collectively come forward and say, "We're sorry." I don't really think anyone expects staff to be perfect, and theres going to be complainers even if you are. But all we, as players, want to know is that you care, not just about the game in a meta sense, but about the people who are giving countless hours of their lives to this game. A simple acknowledgement when a mistake is made, and a promise to try to do better, or to take the game in a new direction, would do WONDERS. Instead, you actively ban people who have played the game for years just because they went to a forum where they can say the things you won't allow them to.

I consider myself a neutral party. No staff has ever attacked me, and the biggest slight I've ever got from them is being denied karma, or being a bit pedantic. I don't really have a problem with any of you. But I know there is a community that does, and they didn't pop out of nowhere. And yeah, they can be reactionary, defeatist, and even cruel. But you're not serving the best interests of the game by hunting them. I want this game to be around in ten years. I want to see it improve, to the point I'm willing to risk my account being deleted just to talk about it. I want a real dialogue between this community and those who feel scorned by it. Because the truth is, we're the same community, just fractured by perceived injustices. And whether they are baseless or not, we don't help the situation by not addressing them openly. Make an account on the Shadowboard. One openly staff. Just talk to them, without any aggression, and I think you'll be surprised by how easily this community improves. I know they'll be surprised to see you.

I mean, looking over your original post, AGAIN, and my post, and then your response about not being sure where I got what I did from what you wrote fills me with incredible bewilderment. I mean, do you really not see how I got any of that, or am I just having a fucking stroke here?

Kay Dan, I'm going to make this really simple. How I PERSONALLY feel towards staff and the direction the game is going is separate from how others think about it, and the steps we need to take to bridge the gap between them and the rest of the community. I am advocating we reach out to people who are not me, and am discussing ways to approach that. This isn't about me.