Author Topic: Honey  (Read 1103 times)

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 723
Honey
« on: March 03, 2017, 10:39:12 AM »
Honey in Zalanthas is green and may even be non existent now since the kanks died off.

Maybe newer generations of folks don't realize this or perhaps I am mistaken and we have some new honey in Zalanthas that I haven't read about that is the color of earth honey. If that is the case, please correct me. Otherwise you may be inadvertently making a green mutant. :)

"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

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Riev

  • Posts: 4355
Re: Honey
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 10:47:59 AM »
Which begs the question...

Is an SDESC designed to give the READER an idea of what you look like, or the IC Populace? Would someone describe you as "honey-haired" or would they say "brownish yellow"? If you say you are a "hale" person, or "tressy-tressed", aren't these supposed to be basic descriptors for the reader?

Or is this why people are "cunyati haired" and "pech-skinned" etc?
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The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 723
Re: Honey
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 11:04:27 AM »
I believe that it has always been tradition to use Zalanthas-themed words. There was even an entire webpage dedicated to synonyms and helping people do this which was linked from the Arm page.

In the past using words to describe things which would be unknown, or rarely known, would be rejected. Words referencing most metals or referencing the sky as blue for example.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

Melkor

  • Posts: 632
Re: Honey
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 11:24:41 AM »
Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.


Regarding honey... What about Wezers? Do they make honey?
Edited to add: Nevermind. Thats dumb. Wezers are carnivores, like wasps. Forget that question.

So where does our honey come from, nowadays? I've seen old crystallized Kank honey, but the new stuff. What makes it?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 11:27:01 AM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Riev

  • Posts: 4355
Re: Honey
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 11:29:18 AM »
I feel like the "Sweetener" of the Known has become marilla. Or khee powder.

Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

whitt

  • Posts: 1577
Re: Honey
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 11:41:28 AM »
Aren't sdesc entirely an OOC construct speaking to the player not the characters in the game?   Which is more jarring to the RP experience?  Trying to visualize a strawberry-blonde ponytail?  Or a Jallal-dyed Mohawk?

So... a honey-haired, blah blah blah would be a fine sdesc, to describe the character to those playing, but the IC description would be the yellowish-brown haired blah blah blah.  I honestly get a bit put off by sdescs with esoteric zalanthan colors since those colors aren't necessarily well defined for translation to an IC description.  The silt-haired blah blah blah, is which color exactly?  Hold on... let me go check the GDB and helpfiles...  blech.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5798
Re: Honey
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 12:31:41 PM »
Edit:  I got totally derailed.  It's morning.  I'd say just assume that they're speaking to you, the reader, and use context.  If they mean green, they mean zalanthan honey.  If not, they don't.  This is one of those areas where it only seems to be a problem if someone decides to turn it into one.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:34:20 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

manipura

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Honey
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 12:52:16 PM »
Aren't sdesc entirely an OOC construct speaking to the player not the characters in the game?   Which is more jarring to the RP experience?  Trying to visualize a strawberry-blonde ponytail?  Or a Jallal-dyed Mohawk?

So... a honey-haired, blah blah blah would be a fine sdesc, to describe the character to those playing, but the IC description would be the yellowish-brown haired blah blah blah.  I honestly get a bit put off by sdescs with esoteric zalanthan colors since those colors aren't necessarily well defined for translation to an IC description.  The silt-haired blah blah blah, is which color exactly?  Hold on... let me go check the GDB and helpfiles...  blech.

I think sdescs and mdescs stop being OOC constructs when players catch sight of the honey-haired man or the strawberry-blonde woman and they describe them as such.  Unless every player starts actively describing every adjective more objectively (which they don't and won't) then my thinking is that sdescs and mdescs are not solely OOC information.  If someone tells me in-game that some guy with honey coloured hair poking out from his helmet is the guy who raided him, should I be having to ask if it's really honey coloured...like a nice greenish yellow shade of old crystallized honey...or if it's some other colour?

When you have a word in a description that is 'something' in game, like honey for example, then it seems obvious to me it should be representing the game colour.  And when you have an adjective that -isn't- something that exists in-game (or is not well-represented to the general populace) , then you run the real risk of having people running around describing this person as having cherry-coloured hair, and that person as having mocha-coloured skin and this other person as having sky-blue eyes (which I see more often than you'd think).
 
If people calling other people Mister/Sir/Ma'am/etc was so anachronistic that it got a board post from staff, then I don't see how we should be running around describing sky-blue-eyed people and honey-blonde people and cherry-lipped people, unless those adjectives are accurately describing the in-game version.

manipura

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Honey
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 12:58:10 PM »
Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.

But copper does exist in game as a reddish-brown colour, just like in RL. 
I think the bigger issue here is when players are using something that doesn't exist in-game in the same manner it exists in RL.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 01:00:15 PM by manipura »

Melkor

  • Posts: 632
Re: Honey
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 01:02:33 PM »
Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.

But copper does exist in game.  I think the bigger issue here is when players are using something that doesn't exist in-game in the same manner it exists in RL.

Good point, but does young Amos from Menos know what copper looks like, if he chooses to describe the copper-haired bandit as such to somebody?

I think there needs to be a reasonable understanding of IC adjectives and OOC adjectives and how they are used to convey information to the Player. Not a huge issue imo.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 90
Re: Honey
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 01:04:44 PM »
I feel like the "Sweetener" of the Known has become marilla. Or khee powder.
I thought of marilla sap and honey as p. much interchangeable until this thread.

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 312
Re: Honey
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2017, 01:06:28 PM »
I'm going to throw my opinion out there, for what it's worth.

I feel that Zalanthan colors and descriptions take precedence over earth colors, and though Zalanthan colors are preferred, both are acceptable. When I see the honey-haired woman, I'm thinking green hair, not only because I've spent so long playing this game that when I see honey written in grey text on black background, my first thought is 'green', but also because I (perhaps unfairly) expect the other player to mean green. However, we're not all Zalanthan lore experts, or masterful writers with prolific vocabularies, so atramentous may not even be a word that we're aware is a color. If you can't think of a better way to describe golden-yellow hair other than honey, so be it. I'm not going to be upset, but until I look at your mdesc, I may be confused for a moment.

This only stands for and works well with text that IS NOT speech. Once it becomes speech, it, in my humble and loudly repeated opinion, MUST be IC and Zalanthan. As pointed out above, we don't say "'sup dawg" "Sir or Ma'am" or "That's cool." So we also shouldn't say, verbally, 'Sky-blue eyes' or 'Honey-toned skin' etc because it's not reasonable for our chars to do so, but also because our veteran players like me are old and fragile, and my forehead can only be banged upon the desk so often before I lose my ability fragment sentence groups.

tl:dr Both are okay, but it's suggested to learn Armageddon colors.


BTW, Bardlyone may be able to hook you up with Arm Mushclient triggers that turn words that describe color into colorized words. 'Honey' actually shows up as green, cunyati as brown, and soldier and Templar are highlighted red in my list of triggers. It's pretty useful, and it meshes well with the new color palettes offered by staff. Send her 172 PM's daily for a period of eight days to receive these triggers.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1714
Re: Honey
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2017, 01:16:25 PM »
If we're talking about short descriptions I think it's wise to use proper adjectives and save the descriptive metaphors for the main description. And by this is I mean, in this case, that an a proper color should be used in the short description and then use the main description to talk about the nuances, how the color resembles something else.

It's better to be clear than risk a possible misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 01:18:26 PM by Molten Heart »

whitt

  • Posts: 1577
Re: Honey
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 03:21:41 PM »
I think sdescs and mdescs stop being OOC constructs when players catch sight of the honey-haired man or the strawberry-blonde woman and they describe them as such.  Unless every player starts actively describing every adjective more objectively (which they don't and won't) then my thinking is that sdescs and mdescs are not solely OOC information.

Mmm, annoyingly good point.  I guess there's a part of me that hopes players don't just blindly parrot sdescs.  The answer to "What did they look like shouldn't be" - Oh he was the tall, broad-shouldered man.  Well thanks.  I'll just pick them out of this crowd of equally tall and broad-shouldered men. 

I'd hope folks are taking into account the mdesc of the person, if those specific sdesc details are even visible at the time, and just generally describing what they saw, instead.
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bardlyone

  • Posts: 725
Re: Honey
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2017, 03:28:45 PM »
Given that a short description is what is supposed to be most notable about your pc, maybe tall and broad shouldered is kind of inappropriate unless you're max height and weight, and even then, well, that's still notable. Then, I'll tend to include a mix of sdesc/desc, and sometimes eq when describing a person, most times. When it's just sdesc alone, that makes me want to cringe. I know some people have stated in previous threads that they often (basically, paraphrasing here) can't be assed to read a person's actual description, but... well, that's kind of on them for being a person playing a text based game who can't be assed to read text. I would imagine someone who is blind playing a video based mmorpg is at a disadvantage as well.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 5798
Re: Honey
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2017, 04:05:10 PM »
Again, we operate within the restrictions set by the game itself.  We can debate a topic like this over and over and insist that everyone start following a platform, but such is entirely nit-picky.

Describe him as the tall, broad-shouldered man IC.  Make it into a joke IC, if you must, but we all understand why they're being described that way in a sea of tall, broad-shouldered people.  The only thing that makes it awkward is when someone insists on pointing out the obvious and forcing you to go deeper into the OOC to explain why they're described that way.

I always got a kick out of the situations.  "It was a guy with rough skin, like he'd been outside a lot.  I guess you could call him....desertworn?"
You know they're laughing about it or rolling them eyes at themselves.  You chuckle about it.  But you move on, you don't turn it into some giant analysis process just because you can.  Not unless you're kinda feeling like being a dick who's ruining immersion for the sake of trying to force immersion.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 4355
Re: Honey
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2017, 04:12:41 PM »
The trouble is, in an IC way, when people want to know what someone looks like, the sdesc words ARE what they want. They want them for contact keywords, or to more readily spot them in a crowd, etc.

So when a Templar says "WHAT DID THE CRIMBIMBAL LOOK LIKE", they never seem to enjoy hearing "he had on a dark cloak, and a white facewrap, and I noticed that his leggings were made out of waxed leather".

They want "He had eight scars on his left asscheck, I guess you could say he was "ass-scarred"?"
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5798
Re: Honey
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 04:23:44 PM »
The trouble is, in an IC way, when people want to know what someone looks like, the sdesc words ARE what they want. They want them for contact keywords, or to more readily spot them in a crowd, etc.

So when a Templar says "WHAT DID THE CRIMBIMBAL LOOK LIKE", they never seem to enjoy hearing "he had on a dark cloak, and a white facewrap, and I noticed that his leggings were made out of waxed leather".

They want "He had eight scars on his left asscheck, I guess you could say he was "ass-scarred"?"

Pretty much.  I try to mix in as many details as I possibly can, so that they have to mix'n match what's sdesc and what's for verification upon closer inspection.  It's also the reason why hoods are still minorly effective; at least it keeps people from using the old 'contact to see if they're online right now' trick.  God I hate that.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Refugee

  • Posts: 1381
Re: Honey
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2017, 05:04:41 PM »
I agree with avoiding descriptions that cause confusion in Zalanthas, like honey hair or sky-colored eyes.  Honey's not a blonde color, and the sky isn't blue.  We don't know if they meant green hair or not.  Did they mean red eyes or blue?    Maybe it should be a reason for sending back an app for changes. 

As for the difficulty with describing what someone looks like to someone else using SDESC words, I think we just have to kind of do the best we can and not make a big deal about how someone else decides to do it.  It's certainly not the most astonishing thing that we take in stride to play this game.  It's just how it works and we might as well accept it like we accept so many other things.  Think of it is a cultural norm.

Samoa

  • Posts: 651
Re: Honey
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2017, 05:50:50 PM »
A long time ago we had a very spirited discussion about this very topic because Pearl Terash, newbie PC founder of the Atrium, had honey-coloured hair in her sdesc, and as any successful PC is a polarising figure, people on the board went about kind of condescendingly bringing up how it must mean her hair was green.

You can generally tell, very easily, from the rest of the mdesc, if a player means 'sky' as in fiery orange-red, or 'honey' as in green, as opposed to blue and gold. Canonically, there is a rather prominently featured Oashi NPC (well, prominent for Oashi PCs, anyway) with 'sky-coloured' hair that is a fiery orange, and in general I do agree that it is correct to keep these things 'Zalanthan' in terms of accuracy, but... we all know what someone means when we see it.

If something slips by, okay, typo it and let someone fix it. PC sdescs and mdescs can be adjusted. It happens. And in the meantime, understand they may not be as familiar with the documentation/world, and roll with what they meant rather than what they wrote.
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Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 312
Re: Honey
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2017, 07:33:48 PM »
2 sids on using sdesc keywords: When I've been asked what someone looks like, I have a wildly varying array of responses depending on both my char, theirs, and the circumstances. In military situations, with an astute char, my responses have been verbose enough to describe scars, eye/hair color, skin color, height, race, approximate weight, cloak and visible weapons. Only sometimes did those descriptions have the actual keywords in there, and only when I felt it was fair to give them. Someone who is the 'drov-eyed, dagger-thin male' would likely be called skinny and dark-eyed. If the dude was a rinthi who always had his hood up, it wouldn't really matter that I didn't use specific keywords except to the person who immediately contacts 'skinny.dark.eyed.' looking for them, and I like to discourage that kind of thing.

Other times, when it was char appropriate, I've responded as simply as 'He looked like a dick, and he said 'eh' a lot.' Even that can be enough to narrow down the list of PC's to one.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Delirium

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Re: Honey
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2017, 08:19:53 PM »
The gameworld can feel very small despite its virtual size.

Personally I like to push back against that as much as I can by being extraordinarily unhelpful in IC ways.

"Uh, there were like 20 people that came and went just now, you want a description of all of them?"

"NO I MEAN THE GUY IN THE BLACK CLOAK THAT WENT THROUGH THE GATES"

"Oh well there were like three of those, I didn't pay too close attention, sorry."

Guess that makes me a jerk!

However, on topic? Y'all are being super nitpicky and probably picking on specific players with this, so geez, stop it.
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BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8144
Re: Honey
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2017, 08:24:17 PM »
I wonder if scarlet, crimson, and red cloaks all look more-or-less the same under the Red Sun we have. Or maybe they all look black?
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bardlyone

  • Posts: 725
Re: Honey
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2017, 08:33:56 PM »
Personally I like to push back against that as much as I can by being extraordinarily unhelpful in IC ways.

"Uh, there were like 20 people that came and went just now, you want a description of all of them?"

"NO I MEAN THE GUY IN THE BLACK CLOAK THAT WENT THROUGH THE GATES"

"Oh well there were like three of those, I didn't pay too close attention, sorry."

This I actually like. :D

Y'all are being super nitpicky and probably picking on specific players with this, so geez, stop it.

This, less so. Then, I've also been the one apping a minimum height pc turned down for 'petite' in a short description - when it's very definition is short (because someone couldn't see how they were petite other than being short), only to turn around and find someone with 'he is tall' (verbatim) as their short description in game with that same pc. Maybe there should be a more level bar there, or better listed criteria.

Edit to add:

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« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:35:46 PM by bardlyone »
Quote from: Maester Aemon Targaryen
What is honor compared to a woman’s love? ...Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2489
Re: Honey
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2017, 12:42:05 AM »
Whenever I see people, especially people who are in leadership rolls or templar and rollcalled rolls, low key/or blatantly ask for an sdesc is hurts me.
This hurts me even more when it's to possibly kill someone.

Peron who wants them dead:"What does he look like so we can go murder him"
Me :"Oh, he's kind of tall. -Eye color-, stuff like that"

-Someone else- "Oh he's very *Literally his sdesc*"

This situation happened before and I would player complaint it should I have thought of it.
People are basically giving full proof verbal wanted posters and I very much doubt anyone who heard of his sdesc would stop and go "Maybe he's just another person with -insert average features-".

As for what I think about sdescs using weird words....
I don't know.
I'm a fan of just using colors as opposed to zalanthian items.
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