Author Topic: What Do Elves Do!?!  (Read 895 times)

Dar

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What Do Elves Do!?!
« on: February 14, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
Quote
Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

I recently had to look this up. These are the numbers of 2006-2008, or therebouts. So while they might be wrong, I doubt they are draaaastically different now.

One thing that made me wonder though. There are roughly 155k free humans and some chump change of demi humans.  Which means that free elves are almost identical in number with free humans.

So I gotta ask. What do elves do to survive? They cant survive primarily on stealing. They just dont have enough humans to steal from.  Does it mean that elves actually do things to actively participate in the city's economy? If so? What do they do? They're not grebbers, due to their agoraphobia and unwillingness to leave the city gates. In fact, they need to rely on in-city resources, or other beings to procure resources for them, whether by honest means, or not. And it's difficult to steal from slaves on account of them not owning anything.

Every city has slums. Every city has a percentage of population that does not produce anything and lives off on the prosperity of others. But that percentage is not HALF. Or even a third, really.

Thoughts?
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Raptor_Dan

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 02:28:16 PM »
"Every city has slums. Every city has a percentage of population that does not produce anything and lives off on the prosperity of others. But that percentage is not HALF. Or even a third, really."

Maybe it is, in Allanak?

Also, there can be hunters, inside the city, that hunt in-city animals. Warriors, tailors, prostitutes, wetnurses, jugglers, con-artists of a different variety than just stealing, teachers, caretakers. I mean, just take any job there is, and you can pretty much apply it to elves, except miners and salters, right?
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2017, 02:37:26 PM »
I consider an elf's 'propensity' to steal to be more of "just something they do". Like the Akai Sjir in Tuluk, they can come together and be wonderful artisans, traders, own a gambling den, join the T'zai Byn. Elves do a lot, they aren't all just thieves and murderers despite what the roundears would have you believe.

While you may not find an elf travelling the Known, trading goods among the various populations, you very well may find one willing to buy and trade in the city. Whether they trade in hides, or scalps, is anyone's guess.

But I guess the point is, an elf CAN do most anything. One runs a shop in Red's, others are tailors, some use their 'sharp minds' (heh) to make fine armor or weapons. Some tell stories, some might even consider in-city grebbing for trash that can be sold.

There are so many, which means their economy must be decent. Probably some good cooks in the necker-dens.
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Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2017, 02:39:35 PM »
Quote
So I gotta ask. What do elves do to survive? They cant survive primarily on stealing.

You are very correct.  The unfortunate part of how RPG's are formulated is that things can get too die-hard interpreted, as can be seen in a number of facets here (we all do it in some way on certain topics).

Because of the documentation and how it's worded, I sometimes think we push elves into too 'hard coded' of a theft platform.  We think of it too directly, where really it fits better as a subtlety of their culture; they don't respect possession as much, and they, as a result, are more likely to take things they want or to spite someone else, or what-have-you.  Same with testing.  It isn't that they think 'I'm gonna test this motherfucker and see if he can be trusted.'  It's that they just naturally swindle so many people that they are actively anti-being-swindled; trust builds over repeated events.

To directly speak to the question above though, I think that the playerbase pushes the 'I don't like elves' bit too far in one way, and not far enough in another.  -Everyone- will be dealing with elves, fairly often; elves are entrepreneurs and active go-getters.  They aren't people who steal so that they can do the least work possible, in my eyes.  So people that instantly get all 'protect my belt!' are reacting to the state of elves as we've made them by this hyperbolic reading of the documentation, where what it should be is that elves value cunning over prowess, or rather, their prowess is based on cunning.  They are interlinked into the community, and being wary of elves is the natural state of knowing that someone is always trying to make every interaction some sort of 'win'; they want to get something, and they're driven in getting it.

So the 'too much in one way' is we immediately treat them all like expert pickpockets, and the 'not enough in the other' is not respecting the mentality itself; they're deeply entrenched in psychology and manipulation and setting themselves up for success in their endeavors.  The latter part of this statement makes it so that elves can be wildly successful in a much larger variety of fields without the idea that they're just stealing everything from everyone else all the time to get by.  They're doing what jobs they can as mercenaries, tradesmen, hawkers, labor, and what have you, the same as anyone else, but they're constantly trying to stack things into their favor which makes their 'management' hard to maintain.  They don't tend to be underlings well, because they will undermine your authority to increase their personal power in that relationship unless they respect said authority.

Or something.  Elves are cool.  We just one-dimensionalize them a lot.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 02:49:05 PM »
Sometimes I wish there were more groupings that hired elves. I can understand why most wouldn't, but the semi-recent attempt at an all-elf unit in the Byn seemed met IN GAME by a lot of "why ever" and "nobody is going to hire them for shit".

You know who I want protecting my priceless artifacts? Ex-thieves and mercenaries. All the bad guys in movies do it. The best white-hats are former black-hats, and maybe you SHOULD have an elf who knows how THEY would steal that silver anklet, and not 'just another soldier who looks scary'.

Elves can be awesome, but they're limited by the fact that if you see one, they're immediately a pickpocket. (Which somehow is more griefer than mon-one-hit-fireball-kill-1000-degree-shortsword)
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Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 02:49:18 PM »
I actually have a long term gripe that when people want to play an antagonist, they pick elf.  Or people pick elf, then act like the epitome of villainy.  The result is a longstanding tradition of elves being true, -total- scumbags in every notable occurrence, rather than a fluid and real seeming character with a different perspective that is based on being a persecuted, tight knit community of cunning individuals.  They aren't evil; they just aren't giving you any benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't really cut the right figure; humans regard elves as lowlifes because they get cheated by elves.  But that isn't an evil, malicious action, that's a sensible one, to the elf.  A lot of people, when dipping their toes into playing elves, are out to play the 'human stereotype' of an elf, rather than let elves be their own thing to experience.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 02:54:33 PM »
So they're kind of like Dragonlance Kender. In a way. They have no real sense of ownership, they just "find" things that they like. Only they're less "childlike" than the kender, and definitely know that they're taking things from other people. But so long as its "in the Family" then everyone benefits.

Qui Bono? YOUR MOM BONES.
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Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 03:00:49 PM »
So they're kind of like Dragonlance Kender. In a way. They have no real sense of ownership, they just "find" things that they like. Only they're less "childlike" than the kender, and definitely know that they're taking things from other people. But so long as its "in the Family" then everyone benefits.

Qui Bono? YOUR MOM BONES.

Eh.  I wouldn't put it that way.  Kender were...thoughtless about it.  I'd view elves as very full of intent and conscious about it, but just not viewing it as that big of a deal.  Throw in that they're bullied a lot and not given the same social backing, and theft is probably a viable way to return bad attention to those who care too much about their possessions.

It's about the balls.  The gumption.  The pride.  They aren't going around just taking things for the hell of it.  Some of them -do- make their living off of it.  But all of them are prone to deciding that your prized possession is up for the taking just to show that no matter how powerful you think you are, they can one up you and humble you.  When you overreact and send mobs at them, it's a show of insecurity and struggle.  I had one thief who held someone's prized blade for a long time, just waiting for the moment to sell it back to them as a show of resourcefulness and ability.  They got pissed instead.  Stoopid hoomans don't get it.

Edit:  Derailing because I splurge about elves.  To realign with the original post, you are correct to feel like things are a little off, and I think it's because the playerbase as a whole is a little shallow as far as how they regard the elven race as a concept.  They have goals and aspirations in many fields like anyone else, they just have some different values and methodologies in attaining their goals.  You should expect to run into elven mercenaries.  You should run into elven crafters, elven shops, elven farmers, elven everything.  They are not limited to thieving, as you correctly inferred.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:04:38 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Jingo

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 03:14:49 PM »
Yeah. Elves tend to get treated like warsaw ghetto jews. Which gets ridiculous when you consider the population stats and the various elven npcs.

And thats ontop of other problems of elven roleplay.

There have been many measured, thoughtful posts on this very topic.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:18:08 PM by Jingo »
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Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 04:26:55 PM »
At this point I unironically think it'd be better if city elves were made virtual. Just.. everything about them is a huge suspension of disbelief and the more you think into them the less sense they make.

Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2017, 04:30:20 PM »
I disagree.  They make a ton of sense to me, as I explain in almost every elf thread.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2017, 04:34:17 PM »
I'm not certain what it is about elves that "doesn't make sense". What is the suspension of disbelief, other than the part where they're based on Dark Sun elves, which are dissimilar to elves in most other canons?
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Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2017, 04:35:13 PM »
Like you've got to wonder what the first elves who arrived in Allanak (or any human settlement) were thinking.

"Yes, this seems like a nice place, I'm sure I can trust these nice humans to have my best interests at heart so I'll happily adapt to a lifestyle doing menial labor that barely pays enough for me to be able to eat and forgo being able to hunt or any kind of self-sufficiency. "

Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 04:36:11 PM »
Like you've got to wonder what the first elves who arrived in Allanak were thinking.

"Yes, this seems like a nice place, I'm sure I can trust these nice humans to have my best interests at heart so I'll happily adapt to a lifestyle doing menial labor that barely pays enough for me to be able to eat and forgo being able to hunt or any kind of self-sufficiency. "

Said the bottom 99% of Allanak.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 04:42:34 PM »
That's kind of the point. We're told the difference between c-elves and d-elves is lifestyle. At some point, c-elves literally chose being invalids so they could live alongside humans.

Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 04:48:59 PM »
That's kind of the point. We're told the difference between c-elves and d-elves is lifestyle. At some point, c-elves literally chose being invalids so they could live alongside humans.

You're kind of assuming they came upon Allanak as it is.  Suppose they were there beforehand in the pre-Allanak that was desert trading, partial buildings, constant in and out traffic, and a very loose, profitable atmosphere for a smart elf.  That's what they stuck around in.  They didn't stumble on a huge city, find the shittiest part of it, and say 'This is the place'.

Edit:  Or below, meshing in with the already-established city rather than a bunch of elves descended from elves who chose it in a different state.  I don't see any need for suspension of disbelief, just acknowledgement of a different history, culture, and mindset from a typical human.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 04:52:53 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 04:49:23 PM »
At some point, a number of desert-dwelling people decided to instead live in a protected cultural city that benefitted them as an individual, and didn't care if they were Soh, or Sun Runner, or Dunestalker. They and their mates could be free to build a family based however they want, and without the restriction of tent space and natural predators like anakore and braxat, they flourished.

I don't understand why I have to suspend my disbelief. I can believe that some elves, long ago, wanted to be different. That's how tribal cultures expand, and why you see similar beliefs among varying cultures. City-based elves just decided they prefer to work with the constraints of a city and bend/break rules, while desert elves prefer there to be no rules but the ones they personally enforce.
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Dar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 04:52:42 PM »
Like you've got to wonder what the first elves who arrived in Allanak (or any human settlement) were thinking.

"Yes, this seems like a nice place, I'm sure I can trust these nice humans to have my best interests at heart so I'll happily adapt to a lifestyle doing menial labor that barely pays enough for me to be able to eat and forgo being able to hunt or any kind of self-sufficiency. "

As far as I know, the coded tribes currently in the cities all have an IG reason for choosing to live in the city. I cant discuss it, because it's part of the tribe docs. But it's described in oral history, and various historical depictions In Game. Seem to make mostly good sense.

I'm glad there are others who think the same of elves. As far as them not surviving off thievery alone. They have to have methods of earning income that does not only revolve around servicing other elves. They have to produce services, goods, and labor that humans purchase as well. Since humans and the State are the main source of resources flowing into the city. Not saying that average elven standard of living should  equal that of humans. Obviously it doesnt. I imagine higher standard of living for an elf 'does' come from theft, or tribe related activities. But there must be something 'productive' performed by the entire species to guarantee some sort of subsistence levels of surviving.

PS:

For the record. Trusting the stats issued by Nyr so many years ago. The numbers of Celves in a single city outnumber pretty much all tribes put together. So despite all the physical strength of a Delf, considering that Celves managed to reach SUCH high populations, kind of hints on the fact that surviving in the city IS easier then out in the wastes.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 04:56:36 PM by Dar »
Quote from: Nergal
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Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 04:56:08 PM »
I can see an elf stealing someone's apartment key/attaining one for themselves, and "living in affluence" off someone else's riches. Or even Apartment-Sniping out a lease just to show that they 'deserve' it just as much as you do.

A necker in silks? I can see it. But every necker not in their Family will be targeting them too, because this sharp-on-sharp crime has GOTTA END MAN.
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Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 04:59:20 PM »
I don't understand why I have to suspend my disbelief. I can believe that some elves, long ago, wanted to be different. That's how tribal cultures expand, and why you see similar beliefs among varying cultures. City-based elves just decided they prefer to work with the constraints of a city and bend/break rules, while desert elves prefer there to be no rules but the ones they personally enforce.

Because elves are:

A) Inherently paranoid
B) Inherently proud of their ability to run

Even the most "different" of elves are born with these traits. But at some point, elves traded what they most celebrate and prize to go live with strangers. I'll drop it now since I'm probably beating a dead horse, but it's just, ugh.

Armaddict

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 05:04:43 PM »
Paranoia is further along the extreme of the scale that elves fall on.  They are distrusting of outsiders, that is not the same as every outsider being the boogeyman.  They are loyal to their own over outsiders, that doesn't mean they don't associate with outsiders.  This is actually the quality that leads to their cunning, as mentioned above.

City elves still run.  They have the fastest movement speed in the game, as a matter of fact, and many rooms in cities don't cost them movement.  An elf doesn't need to try hard to lose a shadow; just run everywhere and leave all non-sharps in the dust a few rooms down the line.  I don't see why they'd lose their pride in running just because they no longer see the opportunity to thrive out in the wilds after living in the city for generations and their entire personal life.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Erythil

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2017, 05:30:03 PM »
I would assume a lot of them have jobs not unlike humans have jobs, just in parallel, poorer, segregated society where they primarily provide services to their own kind.  I imagine a lot of them would be day laborers, grocers, butchers, craftsmen, hunters, farmers, etc.  The same as their human counterparts.  Just maybe a little more distrusting of outsiders and a little more likely to embezzle some of the day's proceeds.

Jihelu

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2017, 05:33:50 PM »
If I recall in good ole Dank Sun elves that lived in the city didn't really 'live' in the city.

Your family either was horribly slaughtered and you were too much of a panzy to kill your self or live on your own in the wilds and moved to the city, OR you were stationed in the city by your family to sell trade goods/services that your family would bring every now and then.
I think it was even vague enough you could have elven mercenaries and what not in a city.

That being said in Arm elves are a bit different. Primarily because they are two complete different race sheets and junk for whatever reason with one not being able to run good and the other....idk.

Seeing as in Arm they live live in the city as opposed to 'live' in the city I could see an elven -insert any human profession here- working.
Just because they pride stealing, either via stealth or with words or lives, doesn't mean they have to:
1: Steal all the time
2: Be obvious about it.

Getting a few more coins for a vase that was obviously a bit low in quality? That's stealing.
Etc.

Elves also don't steal from their families, so I imagine their inner workings are much more solid and compact compared to actual human families. How big elven families are, however, is something I don't know.
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Miradus

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2017, 08:53:35 PM »

I've tried city elf. I really didn't dig it at all.

Walk out of the rinth. A human says, "Don't touch my stuff!" A soldier says, "Get back in the rinth."

>enter rinth

Another city elf says, "Give me yer stuff, k?"

That and the fact that you've got about 14 coded rooms where you're SUPPOSED to be and it made for a very boring experience. I'd like to hear that it isn't the whole city elf experience, but that was my one shot at it.

Jihelu

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 12:14:41 AM »
I feel like the 'fuck being an elf' experience partially comes from the 'lets kill people or make their lives hell over fucking nothing' mentality.
Human says "Fuck off"
You say "Eat shit round ear"
Next thing you know the human and his noble contact are killing you because ????

Same with soldier, only with prison and coded power.


Theres no way to be a huge ass hole, usually, without getting smacked the fuck down.
This also goes to the whole "Npc elf tribe" stuff.




I feel like I defend elves oocly more than I even like them.
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Harmless

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 08:09:52 AM »
I still play as elves and enjoy them. Desert or city elf. They are both good. Unlike gemmed roleplay which really does come down to "fuck you and die," the playerbase seems to "get" elves more now. They do have a place.

As for how to get rich as an elf, play as one. Wisdom and agility are pretty handy for a life as a craftsman or even as a local-city hunter as was said. Seeing as a few hundred coins can get food and water, good. Seeing as elves do tend to form groups/families then that is also good.

My one complaint over elf realism is the "two keys per apartment" rule. But fuck, at least some of the elves in the fam should learn how to pop a lock. I say c elves should branch pick eventually at a super low cap (off steal I guess), just enough to bust into a few locks in each city in the lowest tier tenements. Then you can have four or five elves all stuffed into one poor ass apartment living off ratmeat and grey water and fine elven "tea." In other words, totally badass and also realistic to the setting.
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bardlyone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2017, 09:06:27 AM »
My one complaint over elf realism is the "two keys per apartment" rule. But fuck, at least some of the elves in the fam should learn how to pop a lock. I say c elves should branch pick eventually at a super low cap (off steal I guess), just enough to bust into a few locks in each city in the lowest tier tenements. Then you can have four or five elves all stuffed into one poor ass apartment living off ratmeat and grey water and fine elven "tea." In other words, totally badass and also realistic to the setting.

I still remember when you could have 4 people on the lease on average. I've never gotten over this change, because in a world of wildly impoverished people, even in a world where just some people are wildly poor and it isn't "first world" living standards for commoners it makes no sense. That's not even the ability for an entire family/tribe rolecall of people to be able to live together on a lease. Or any relationship worth of people that isn't monogamous. Or a couple with a kid. Or a person and their mate and a friend. It's just kind of insane.
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Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2017, 09:22:25 AM »
Related, though, is the fact that 4 people were running full blown mini-clans out of 2room apartments because 4 people could be leased, and at the time there weren't weight restrictions (thanks dwarf in Tuluk for stowing bags on bags on bags of bone swords on your balcony!)

Nothing says you can't leave your door unlocked, and have your family sneak past the front guard, but that's a bit foolish as well. Maybe after <2> leases, you can add "visitor" flags for people that can come see you, but they don't get a key? I know I would sure as shit like being able to walk into a tenement and knock on my friend's door. The guards don't block the REAL issues as much as patrollers would, anyway.
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Molten Heart

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 05:08:17 AM »
So you want more people in your apartment? It'd be cool if the price of rent was tied to the number of tenants, having rent increase as the number of tenants increases. Don't want to pay a lot? Just rent the place by yourself.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 05:12:08 AM by Molten Heart »

Akaramu

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 07:03:42 AM »
So you want more people in your apartment? It'd be cool if the price of rent was tied to the number of tenants, having rent increase as the number of tenants increases. Don't want to pay a lot? Just rent the place by yourself.

That wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. Landlords want to make the same amount of money from the same amount of owned buildings every month. Why would anyone charge less for a nice house  because there's only one person living in it?

Molten Heart

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2017, 07:30:43 AM »
So you want more people in your apartment? It'd be cool if the price of rent was tied to the number of tenants, having rent increase as the number of tenants increases. Don't want to pay a lot? Just rent the place by yourself.

That wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. Landlords want to make the same amount of money from the same amount of owned buildings every month. Why would anyone charge less for a nice house  because there's only one person living in it?

I'm suggesting if there's more than one person living in an apartment, that the rent just goes up from the base price. No discounts for less tenants, just rent increases for more tenants.

Like this. If you rent an apartment for 500 for a half month. If you want to add someone, that's 200 more. Another person is 200 more. Maybe the rent increase goes up 150% per additional tenant so the third person living an apartment would cost 300 more and the 4 would be 400 more, so if you've got 4 people living an apartment the rent is 500+200+300+400=1400 a every half month.

The basic idea is that additional tenants means additional rent paid from the base.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 07:38:12 AM by Molten Heart »

Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 07:39:08 AM »
Yeah but these are Zalanthas landlords who'd rather leave a room unoccupied than rent it out to someone who dares to already have an apartment with a competitor because reasons. They don't care about what's profitable.

Feco

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2017, 07:41:56 AM »
I feel like people don't say this enough when it comes to suggestions:

I'm happy the way it is.
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Miradus

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2017, 07:47:28 AM »

I'm happy I'm not the guy living in the apartment below 43 dwarves who come in from grebbing all day and sing drinking songs all night.

Akaramu

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2017, 08:28:52 AM »

I'm suggesting if there's more than one person living in an apartment, that the rent just goes up from the base price. No discounts for less tenants, just rent increases for more tenants.

Like this. If you rent an apartment for 500 for a half month. If you want to add someone, that's 200 more. Another person is 200 more. Maybe the rent increase goes up 150% per additional tenant so the third person living an apartment would cost 300 more and the 4 would be 400 more, so if you've got 4 people living an apartment the rent is 500+200+300+400=1400 a every half month.

The basic idea is that additional tenants means additional rent paid from the base.

Then a lot (and I mean a LOT) of VNPCs would be homeless. The only reason they can afford a roof over their heads is because they share the costs for the base rent.

Molten Heart

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2017, 08:42:34 AM »
I don't think it's fair to apply the same standards of PCs to VNPCs. If we did, VNPCs would currently only be allowed two people per unit.

bardlyone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2017, 08:52:01 AM »
rather leave a room unoccupied than rent it out to someone who dares to already have an apartment with a competitor because reasons.

Not really the case. Do you know of any apartment building in game that isn't owned by Nenyuk outside of whatever possible hovels there are in the Rinth? Because I don't. In that case, it's not really a competitor, is it?
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Lutagar

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2017, 08:57:15 AM »
Do you know of any apartment building in game that isn't owned by Nenyuk outside of whatever possible hovels there are in the Rinth?

yes
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 08:59:12 AM by Lutagar »

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2017, 09:41:24 AM »
If you get down to it, Nenyuk probably doesn't want to rent more than one room to you, because if you're renting two apartments in one of their complexes, CLEARLY you need to rent out one of their fine Warehouses to supply your needs. Which are more expensive and come with a lot more restrictions.

I feel most of Nenyuk's coin comes from dead PCs that leave shit in their accounts anyways. But this is all tangential to the elf situation, where it kinda would be nice if they all had a hovel they could live in, and some changes Southside KIND of make a semi-Warrens situation manageable. I'm not saying all elves should live on rooftops, but there are a few areas that could kinda be 'claimed' if only we could rationalize a save room.
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Harmless

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2017, 09:46:18 AM »
All elves need teh climb skill!!

Okay and nenyuk can charge for extra keys.

Give me everything I want :p
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bardlyone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2017, 09:51:25 AM »
All elves need teh climb skill!!

Okay and nenyuk can charge for extra keys.

Give me everything I want :p

+1
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Cind

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 02:46:36 PM »
Elf-only cheap apartment building with old cheap locks, fuck breeds, bring your own furniture. Poorer people work with less money. They could partner their rent with a non pure elf or other race, even human, but those might be wise to choose somewhere else to live. Include a shadowy storage room with no door that isn't used anymore (from the building's previous purpose) that is perfect for someone with even a hide subguild to watch people from as they enter and go to their apartment.

Right now you can rent a cheap place in Allanak, but there's nowhere that -feels- 'shady' or 'undesirable' or 'you'd be wise not to live here.' The ones that come closest are cheap, spartan places, a little dusty, one out of eighteen of which has a bloodstain on the floor that's been there since before you were alive.
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Miradus

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2017, 04:12:05 PM »

I am going to roll up a sleazy breed who sells Nenyuk timeshares.

Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2017, 11:07:49 AM »

I am going to roll up a sleazy breed who sells Nenyuk timeshares.

I would buy that timeshare.


(Heh. In my mind, I'm imagining an elf who 'stands guard' at some broken down house, and just picks the lock for people who are "on the list" to get in. Until the real owners come to check, at which point they bolt).
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Tisiphone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2017, 12:27:22 PM »

I am going to roll up a sleazy breed who sells Nenyuk timeshares.

I would buy that timeshare.


(Heh. In my mind, I'm imagining an elf who 'stands guard' at some broken down house, and just picks the lock for people who are "on the list" to get in. Until the real owners come to check, at which point they bolt).

This is actually a beautiful example of elfish behaviour that nevertheless doesn't lead to the complete absurdity of no-one seeing any reason to ever interact with you because you'll just screw them. In this example, the elf is selling a real good, and the buyers are buying a real good. The people the elf is screwing are not directly part of the transaction, and the buyers know (or probably suspect) what they're getting into - but have a real incentive for going with it anyway, because otherwise they'll never get into those nice apartments on Merchant's.

In my mind, elves aren't Snidely Whiplash and 'curse your unforeseen but inevitable betrayal!' Instead, most of the time they're like sleazy pawn-shop owners. A sleazy pawn shop will sell you a real good that probably does work as advertised, and so you'll really want it. You're not informed of the whole story, and that might come back to bite you, but then again, it might be worth it. A hot gun still works as a gun. A Rolex is still a Rolex, even if it came off the wrist of a lawyer with a gambling habit and bad taste in friends.

And maybe the elf runs an honest front - a real pawn shop - while also acting as a small-time fence for less-than-savory clientele. If you walk in off the street, you aren't going to get screwed - he'll cut you an honest (though hard) deal if all you want is that vintage N64 in the window. He's just involved in darker business, too.

So an elf will sell you a nice necklace for cheap, and just omit to mention that he got it from one of his East-side buddies who ganked a merchant and needed to move his stock. Or an elf will carry out a robbery for you in order to hurt your political rivals, and just carry off a little for himself, too. Or an elf will faithfully and accurately spy for you, and just also pass the info on to his family. None of which makes elves untouchable; it just means you don't trust them. But you still might hire them to do the job.

It's a much better model than, "I'm an elf, which means I have to try to rip off everybody always regardless of the upside."
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

Miradus

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2017, 12:29:25 PM »

I would think elves would also have the mentality that sometimes a regular little is greater than a one-time lot.

As me ol' Pops used to say, "You can shear a sheep as many times as you want, but you can only skin it once."

There would be advantages to being a somewhat reliable scumbag.

Tisiphone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2017, 12:30:39 PM »

I would think elves would also have the mentality that sometimes a regular little is greater than a one-time lot.

As me ol' Pops used to say, "You can shear a sheep as many times as you want, but you can only skin it once."

There would be advantages to being a somewhat reliable scumbag.

You and me, we should play elves together.

Except I'm terrible at it.
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

Miradus

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2017, 12:36:25 PM »

I'm terrible at it too.

But sometimes I have the most fun being terrible.

Tisiphone

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »
Four elves in a family.
Three mug people in dark alleys and take their stuff, being sure to target rich-ish commoners, but never anybody important.

The fourth sells the stuff from a dingy shop-front in the Commoners Quarter for cut-rate prices that're 80% of the standard market rate. No tricks; you actually get what you actually paid for.

Meanwhile, the family kicks back enough monthly coin to the local Templarate that, so long as they aren't bothering anyone important too often, nothing much happens. Occasionally the AoD blows through, delivers a light beating and trashes the place a little, just so it's clear who's boss.

The elves are named Vince, Dmitri, Jaden, and Diego.

A girl can dream.
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

nauta

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2017, 01:26:47 PM »
I'm going to wax nostalgic a bit on the family of rinth elves we had in the last year, which had a really fun run, and to tie it into another discussion -- we were pursuing the MMH option.

Also, city elves are Ferengi:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(Star_Trek)

Also, second to the awesomeness of rooftops.   That be elf territory, Kah!
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whitt

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2017, 01:36:50 PM »
I would think elves would also have the mentality that sometimes a regular little is greater than a one-time lot.

I think one of the things that harms Elf RP is that few folks stick with (or survive being in) the role long enough to get a real appreciation of what it could take to be an elf that has to exist within the city.  The whole cultural stealing thing is a big part of that, but, I believe, largely because we all view stealing from the human angle.  From one of my character reports about two years ago:

Quote
Got me to thinking about the odd nature of Elves and stealing.  In my mind there is always a hint of anger or mean-spiritedness to stealing.  You don't just take something, you take something to hurt the person you're taking it from.  I don't think it's always that way with Elves.  Elves take things to demonstrate that you can.  This is where this whole thing was supposed to be going.  I'm not sure it ended up turning out that way.  Maybe I'm over-analyzing.

On top of this there's the analogy of the master sculptor.  The very best sculptors aren't 24/7 ignoring friends, food, exercise, and other hobbies.  That said, if they passed by a piece of sculpture, they might be tempted to tweak it, just that little touch when they're inspired.  Like a concert pianist who passes the airport piano.  Or the rock star that joins in a street performance, because they were inspired in the moment.  That's the elven mindset to me.  If there's opportunity + inspiration, they're going to take advantage.

The other part of this is to broaden the scope of "stealing" beyond just the monetary value of what is taken.  If the Elf is trying to prove they can get into somewhere impossible to get into, as long as what they take is identifiable, why take the priceless gem?  Take one of two favorite earrings instead.  You've proven you could take whatever you want.  Then plant it back on them, to show them they're just as vulnerable. 

It's not the having that is prideful, it's the getting.  So, there's a lot to it that requires a nuanced approach to thievery that is so much beyond.  I took your stuff and sold it to the pawn shop.  Any thief can do that.  And they'll have a very short life once they steal the wrong thing - elf or not.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:59:49 PM by whitt »
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Riev

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Re: What Do Elves Do!?!
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2017, 01:50:40 PM »
As a non-Elf, I once had a pickpocket who was obsessed with paying people their due coin by planting pouches on them with the pay. Then waying them later to check their pockets.

It was a decent way of 'interacting' without the danger of being 'out in the open'. I've also done the "check the bench" and hidden/Sleight of Hand when they show up, to make sure they get it.

I also tried to plant the rolled spice a Tuluki Templar asked for in his hands, but circumstances got me caught. I thought it'd be a bit of artistry to be like "BUT YOU ALREADY HAVE IT! Wooaaahhhh!"
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