On attending RPTs (or not) as an offpeaker

[Akaramu]

There's this question that's been floating around at the back of my mind all day, and I'd love to tap into our collective hive intelligence and get some player (and hopefully staff) opinions on it.

Most of you probably know I'm an offpeak player. I do occasionally attend RPTs, but the thing is - RPTs tend to start somewhere between 4-6 AM my time, which means that in order to attend, I'm going to have to wake up reeeeeally early after a teensy little bit of sleep. The weariness eventually wears off, but my mind tends to remain sluggish, I might be slow to respond, and combat is overwhelming to me even when I'm fully awake. If I get involved in combat after 3 hours of sleep, chances are my PC is just going to die.

Of course there are situations where a leadery type person could pretty much order my character to attend. Maybe I'm the only one who's seen (insert person) the hunting group is looking for, and they need me to identify the target. Or maybe my attendance isn't absolutely mandatory, but not having me along would still inconvenience everyone else. Maybe I'm the most skilled warrior by far and noble Scaredycat wants me to guard him for the entirety of the trip.

Now I'm wondering... is it okay for me to OOCly choose which RPTs I wake up at 4 AM for, and which ones not? Even if another PC could realistically order my character to attend? I'm not a fan of combat (too much text scrolling, too overwhelming) even when I'm fully awake, and I'm even less of a fan when I'm half asleep. I like to wake up early for the occasional social RPT, though. BUT... other players might not understand why I wake up early for some RPTs but not others, especially when they ordered me to be there. It's just a game, sure, but I like y'all and don't want to annoy or frustrate anyone either.

NOTE: This is a general question and not related to my current PC in any way.

[Delirium]

If someone IC orders you to attend an RPT that is at 4am your time, you are well within your rights to make an IC excuse why you can't make it, and if necessary go OOC to explain the time doesn't work for you. If you suffer IC consequences for that the player is being a dick and you should send in a player complaint. This is a game.

[Akaramu]

If someone IC orders you to attend an RPT that is at 4am your time, you are well within your rights to make an IC excuse why you can't make it, and if necessary go OOC to explain the time doesn't work for you. If you suffer IC consequences for that the player is being a dick and you should send in a player complaint. This is a game.

Yeah, this has never been an issue so far. Players have been pretty understanding. My question is if it's okay to attend social RPTs that start at 4 AM, but skip anything with a high chance of involving combat. A Fale party doesn't require me to be 100% alert and awake. A Byn contract does. But... other players might not understand why I attend the party but skip all the combat events. That's what I'm worried about.

[Fathi]

We play this game to have fun in the limited bandwidth of our free time. You're well within your rights to pick and choose what you sacrifice sleep for.

Back when I was playing Armageddon on a salvaged-from-parts computer that lacked a cooling fan and would frequently overheat in our 100+ degree Texas summers, I went through a stretch where I would only attend combat-related activities or leave the comfort of the city while playing from work. I lost multiple characters to "computer overheated while I was in the Tablelands, logged in find him dead."

Sooo I just decided, when I'm at home, my character ain't leaving her clan's compound. Is it a little OOC/meta? Sure. But we can't control our life circumstances. Don't feel guilt over that.

If your job/mental stamina/computer situation doesn't allow you to easily and voluntarily wake up early for RPTs, that's life, man. Play the game as best you can, but don't feel like you have to overextend yourself unless you want to.

[wizturbo]

If someone IC orders you to attend an RPT that is at 4am your time, you are well within your rights to make an IC excuse why you can't make it, and if necessary go OOC to explain the time doesn't work for you. If you suffer IC consequences for that the player is being a dick and you should send in a player complaint. This is a game.

+1.  If you're important to making the RPT work, then it should be scheduled with you in mind. 

[Patuk]

Now I'm wondering... is it okay for me to OOCly choose which RPTs I wake up at 4 AM for, and which ones not?

Yes it is. It absolutely is. Good lord is it ever.

But really, though. Some of these RPT's go on until well after midnight even in the US. Having any kind of expectation for you to clear up your schedule for such sorts of times isn't and shouldn't be a thing. I don't even want for that to be considered, really. More people than only those somewhere by the pacific ocean should be able to play this game without developing insomnia, and that's not a position I'll budge from.

[Akaramu]

If someone IC orders you to attend an RPT that is at 4am your time, you are well within your rights to make an IC excuse why you can't make it, and if necessary go OOC to explain the time doesn't work for you. If you suffer IC consequences for that the player is being a dick and you should send in a player complaint. This is a game.

+1.  If you're important to making the RPT work, then it should be scheduled with you in mind.

How many other players can start an RPT on early PST afternoons, though?

[Bushranger]

If someone IC orders you to attend an RPT that is at 4am your time, you are well within your rights to make an IC excuse why you can't make it, and if necessary go OOC to explain the time doesn't work for you. If you suffer IC consequences for that the player is being a dick and you should send in a player complaint. This is a game.

+1.  If you're important to making the RPT work, then it should be scheduled with you in mind.

How many other players can start an RPT on early PST afternoons, though?

+1. We're not Off Peak Akaramu. We're the new Peak!

[nauta]

I agree with the above that it is just a game and players of leadery types should be (and from my experience 100% are) sensitive to this.  It's not just making an RPT, but having to go AFK during an RPT, or log off quickly due to RL, etc.

Of course there are situations where a leadery type person could pretty much order my character to attend. Maybe I'm the only one who's seen (insert person) the hunting group is looking for, and they need me to identify the target. Or maybe my attendance isn't absolutely mandatory, but not having me along would still inconvenience everyone else. Maybe I'm the most skilled warrior by far and noble Scaredycat wants me to guard him for the entirety of the trip.

One thing you bring up though I think is answered by coming up with an IG excuse.  I've had this problem (not from other players, but just sort of myself).  So for instance, you are aide to a templar, and at a dinner party, but then have to log off quickly.  Or you are a templar and have to leave quickly.  Or you can't make the meeting you yourself setup.  Or you are a case like the above you list where your IC absence due to OOC reasons would have IC consequences -- I remember once talking to a Bynner about a Runner who was never promoted to Trooper for basically the reason that they never attended any of the RPTs.

First, people should try to look the other way.  It's just a game.  If someone goes suddenly AFK (and are decent enough to gone afk or signal this), just try to redirect the scene to something else in the meanwhile.  If you can't make an RPT and you are upfront about it, then the rest of the clan can redirect their creative energies on something else.

But you can also try to toss out some IC excuses.  So what are some IC excuses?  You could've broken your neck and are bedridden, thus can't show.  You've become violently ill on some plant, and thus can't show.  You did the relevant tasks virtually -- the virtual world is a good appeal in such cases -- for the Bynner, I think it is fair of them to say they have gone on virtual contracts, although I can see this as a bit of a tricky pickle.  Etc.

Anyway, I wouldn't fuss it too much -- it's just a game!

[WarriorPoet]

If you catch grief over not attending a hideously inconveniently timed RPT your leader is an RL asshole.

This is a game. I play it to fill the hours when I am not doing useful, productive, or fun things in the real world. I love you guys and I cherish the memories I have made here but I am always going to pick RL adventures over IC. You should too.

[BadSkeelz]

If you catch grief over not attending a hideously inconveniently timed RPT your leader is an RL asshole.

This is a game. I play it to fill the hours when I am not doing useful, productive, or fun things in the real world. I love you guys and I cherish the memories I have made here but I am always going to pick RL adventures over IC. You should too.

Yep.

To be fair, sometimes Leaders don't know their RPTs are hideously timed for one player or another. That's why I find it important to phrase my RPTs as voluntary at least in an OOC sense. IC you just take what you can get and be happy anyone showed up.

[Lizzie]

I think it goes both ways.

On the one hand, you shouldn't feel obligated to go to all the RPTs, or to sit them all out just because you know you won't be "there" for a variety of types of them.

On the other hand, if you join a mostly-combat-oriented clan and that clan is known to have mostly combat-oriented RPTs, you should accept that your character probably won't get promoted if she rarely/never attends the combat-oriented RPTs and only shows up for the social ones.

She shouldn't get punished for not attending the combat ones, but she should also not expect to rise in status if she never does anything to prove her value to the clan.

[lordcooper]

In Eve my corp owns a Keepstar (a massive structure that would cost something like $15,000 to replace if using IRL cash).  If corp leadership demanded or even expected people to wake up at 4AM to defend it then the corp would basically become a ghost town overnight (despite the fact that many would agree to do so if asked without pressure).  Expecting people to massively alter their schedule for the sake of pretendy fucking funtime games is ridiculous, anyone doing so is a complete twat.  It's your time, how you spend it is up to you.  If there's mention of an RPT that heavily involves you and you can't/don't want to make it, inform the relevant guys OOCly and that's the end of it.  If it isn't, then it's time for a player complaint.

Acceptable reasons for missing an RPT include the following: your dog died, your kids have tuberculosis, you fancy a nice bath, fuck you it's 4AM, you're not feeling it, it's literally armageddon, there's a new Neil Gaiman book out etc etc

[Miradus]

In my experience, if absenteeism is an issue then there's other, bigger issues. Such as a person being not very fun to play with. (A drama factory, prone to constant logging off, etc.)

Whenever I've been part of a group doing stuff, everyone tries to work around the fun guy's schedule and could care less about not-fun guy.

[Akaramu]

On the other hand, if you join a mostly-combat-oriented clan and that clan is known to have mostly combat-oriented RPTs, you should accept that your character probably won't get promoted if she rarely/never attends the combat-oriented RPTs and only shows up for the social ones.

She shouldn't get punished for not attending the combat ones, but she should also not expect to rise in status if she never does anything to prove her value to the clan.

That sounds fair.

In my experience, if absenteeism is an issue then there's other, bigger issues. Such as a person being not very fun to play with. (A drama factory, prone to constant logging off, etc.)

Whenever I've been part of a group doing stuff, everyone tries to work around the fun guy's schedule and could care less about not-fun guy.

How does not attending RPTs that start at 4 AM my time have anything to do with causing drama, absenteeism and not being fun to play with? 

I think you're misunderstanding something there. I'm not inactive / barely active. I don't suddenly go afk or log off in the middle of a scene. I just prefer not to do combat at 4-6 AM my time, when I'm normally sleeping.

[Reiloth]

Being off-peak shouldn't be held against the off-peaker. If the RPT is so important for that off-peaker to attend, the Leader should accommodate either by having multiple events (in the case of a Festival, where there are Off-Peak portions that are attend able by Off-Peakers, or even hosted by an Off-Peaker assistant/peer), or be lenient to the fact that that person can't attend (not ICly hold it against them for not being there, or consider that they were there virtually).

I've had a mixed bag as far as this is concerned. Some leaders are more acquiescing when it comes to acknowledging you 'may have been there' and just not readily available, or that you had something else to do. I've found this is difficult when you have few IC excuses for not being around. I find that the 'I was sick' excuse works, as your Leader PC probably doesn't want to get what you have in the Medical Awesomeness that is Zalanthas (no advil, no Airborne, no vitamins, etc.)

I would honestly file a player complaint if I got guff for not being around for an RPT. It's a game, not a job.

[Is Friday]

I remember when someone reported me for sending them a PM. I ask them to stop harassing another clan member for not playing very much and/or being afk because of children. 

[Reiloth]

I remember when someone reported me for sending them a PM. I ask them to stop harassing another clan member for not playing very much and/or being afk because of children. 

I think especially considering the aging nature of our MUD community (we used to be 15, now we're thirty and have kids/dogs/responsibilities), we should be a little more understanding of distractions.

Yes, if we're going on a Sewer Crawl, the onus is maybe on us (those with kids/dogs/whatever) to let the other people know ahead of time via an OOC that we might need to go AFK randomly, and to also maybe OOC that you need to go AFK. But sometimes you can't!

[Miradus]

How does not attending RPTs that start at 4 AM my time have anything to do with causing drama, absenteeism and not being fun to play with? 

I think you're misunderstanding something there. I'm not inactive / barely active. I don't suddenly go afk or log off in the middle of a scene. I just prefer not to do combat at 4-6 AM my time, when I'm normally sleeping.

I didn't say you were. Don't be so touchy.

What I said was people who are fun to play with typically have more people bend over backwards to play with them.

[Reiloth]

How does not attending RPTs that start at 4 AM my time have anything to do with causing drama, absenteeism and not being fun to play with? 

I think you're misunderstanding something there. I'm not inactive / barely active. I don't suddenly go afk or log off in the middle of a scene. I just prefer not to do combat at 4-6 AM my time, when I'm normally sleeping.

I didn't say you were. Don't be so touchy.

What I said was people who are fun to play with typically have more people bend over backwards to play with them.

That's a bit of a catch 22, Miradus. By bending over backwards, do you mean they'll stay up until 4AM to play with them? Because sure that might happen once in a black moon, but not all the time by any means, it isn't tenable.

[Akaramu]

I didn't say you were. Don't be so touchy.

What I said was people who are fun to play with typically have more people bend over backwards to play with them.

Since you posted in this thread, I can't help but assume the comment was directed at me.

I'm fun to play with. It's just that most people tend to not be able to make my times no matter how much they want to. It's a game and we've got players with jobs and families here. It's usually like this...


Persons A, B, C, D, and X (myself) are needed for the RPT to progress smoothly, though I'm usually less necessary since my playtimes prevent me from playing leaders. I'm just that most skilled warrior or the person with skill X.

Person A and C can play during (insert time window that works for me)

Person B and D can play during (insert other time window that also works for me)

Persons A, B, C, and D can play during (insert time window that doesn't work for me)

[Reiloth]

Scheduling for RPTs is one of the bigger nightmares of playing this game. I tend to try and set a few different times, and see which has the greatest yield for the most people. I also try to not hold it against the few people who can't make that time.

In the case of Lizzie's argument (you play a PC that can't show up to most of the RPTs) I will sometimes go out of my way to schedule one RPT that caters to the off-peaker, but may not have the greatest yield of other people. Once in a while, especially in the Byn. I think that's totally fair.

[Akaramu]

In the case of Lizzie's argument (you play a PC that can't show up to most of the RPTs) I will sometimes go out of my way to schedule one RPT that caters to the off-peaker, but may not have the greatest yield of other people. Once in a while, especially in the Byn. I think that's totally fair.

That's why you're an awesome leader.

[Riev]

I'd like to say that in my current clan, because of MY times, there tends to be two time periods we shoot for. One is 12-1pm server, the other is 8-9pm server.

Those that can't attend? I certainly don't hold it against them, and in fact worry constantly that they aren't getting the intended fun because they can't make it to all the cool stuff.

[Raptor_Dan]

I certainly don't hold it against them, and in fact worry constantly that they aren't getting the intended fun because they can't make it to all the cool stuff.

[James de Monet]

What?  No.  I mean, I guess it wouldn't be weird for people to ask why you only ever go to RPTs of type X, but if there's a halfway decent explanation, any leader player should be willing to take it.

On the flip side, if you join a combat clan and never go to combat RPTs of any sort, no matter the circumstances, people might be within their rights to wonder why you didn't join a different type of clan, and within their rights to not promote your char, because s/he does not advance the raison d'etre of the clan.

But I don't think that second situation applies to you as you presented it.  There are certain types of RPTs you can't attend at certain times.  That's totally reasonable.

[Riev]

On the flip side, if you join a combat clan and never go to combat RPTs of any sort, no matter the circumstances, people might be within their rights to wonder why you didn't join a different type of clan, and within their rights to not promote your char, because s/he does not advance the raison d'etre of the clan.

This part is what I've struggled with as a leader, before. People joining a combat clan, but not ever attending the RPTs that involve combat. (Note: MOST people actually ONLY attend the RPTs, sometimes I never see people at all unless something is planned weeks ahead of time). Like when I was in the Legions, and someone would join as a Recruit, I'd almost never see them, but after they'd been around a year they were wondering when I'd make them a Private.

Now, they HAVE virtually been around a year, but their playtime is like 3days played. Do I worry about their coded skill and ability to perform in the role? Do I promote someone into full membership even though I can't vouch for their ability or even attitude?

[Akaramu]

Now, they HAVE virtually been around a year, but their playtime is like 3days played. Do I worry about their coded skill and ability to perform in the role? Do I promote someone into full membership even though I can't vouch for their ability or even attitude?

I wouldn't promote them unless they were actually around, but outside my playtimes. In that case, staff / other clan PCs could most likely help resolve the issue.

[Refugee]

I'm 57.  I well remember when I could stay up partying/playing D&D/whatever until 4am, catch two hours of sleep and go to work the next day and be just fine.

But that part of your life doesn't last long lol!

I don't know about you young pups, but when it starts getting very late for me (and that means nearing midnight these days), I start making lots of typos.  I start making lots of dumb mistakes, like forgetting to draw my weapon or leaving my beetle resting while I follow blithely off into the sands.  I can't muster the focus to follow the rapid flow of text in a large combat situation as well as I usually can.  If I had to get up at 4am to do that, I might as well just suicide my PC, it just ain't gonna work.  Sorry, there's simply nothing I can do about it.

So I understand the OP's situation. 

I also understand it from a combat leader's point of view.  You need to be able to count on having your people so you can accomplish your mission.  If someone doesn't show up, what use are they to you?  It's true that if you are not useful to the crew then you shouldn't be promoted.

Maybe leaders could find ways to make the off-peak PC useful.  Maybe the off-peak PC can think up ideas to make themselves useful to the combat leader.  Both sides would have to work harder to make it a symbiotic relationship.  In a big inclusive clan like the Byn, maybe there can be an effort to have someone who can lead outings at an off-peak time.  These days some troopers get to do that right?  And there are always more than one sergeant.

[Akaramu]

I remember when someone reported me for sending them a PM. I ask them to stop harassing another clan member for not playing very much and/or being afk because of children. 

If someone was excessively afk not just once or twice, but during every sparring session / every time the clan does anything, I'd have to wonder why they're playing in a clan. Because when it's excessive it's frustrating for everyone else. Infinitely more frustrating than simply not logging in while the kids are awake. And if I was that person's leader, I'd definitely say something IC / OOC.

Fortunately this is super rare. I think I've only encountered it twice in 13 years. 99% of players go afk occasionally, not excessively.

[James de Monet]

Like when I was in the Legions, and someone would join as a Recruit, I'd almost never see them, but after they'd been around a year they were wondering when I'd make them a Private.

Now, they HAVE virtually been around a year, but their playtime is like 3days played. Do I worry about their coded skill and ability to perform in the role? Do I promote someone into full membership even though I can't vouch for their ability or even attitude?

I see your point, Riev, but 3 days played over six RL weeks (the average IG recruit year) averages out to more than an RL hour and a half a day.  That's actually quite reasonable.

If instead they only had 10 hours played over that same span, or if they played those 3 days in the first two weeks and then didn't log in for 4 weeks, I could understand not promoting them.  But if they are logging in regularly, I think they should get promoted (unless there are IC reasons not to).  It can be difficult to figure that out, especially if their playtimes don't line up with yours, but a little judicious use of OOC here can generally clear things up.

[Though, I'll say, for the record, I certainly wouldn't ask them how many days played they have.  If I say they "don't have enough experience" or something, though, and they volunteer OOC, that feels less meta-gamey.]

[Hauwke]

If you log in regularly you should do well, if you dont you wont do as well. Thats just how the game is sadly.

[Malken]

I feel like this thread will go on until someone tells Akaramu that if she can't make it to every single RPTs then she should just quit the game.

That's the nature of the GDB!