Author Topic: The current Prez  (Read 22708 times)

Sayyadina

  • Posts: 328
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #975 on: April 07, 2017, 02:38:13 PM »
More accurately:  missiles were fired to destroy infrastructure that was used to kill brown people. 
I'm sure the children gassed to death by Assad's regime are happy knowing that a handful of Syrian government soldiers were killed in their name.

This was the right call for several reasons:

1.  The operation itself was essentially risk-free with respect to American personnel.
Agreed on this point.

2.  It was arguably proportional.  That is, the damage was incurred (presumably) by the responsible party.
Agreed that it was arguably proportional. But the question of proportionality is secondary to jurisdiction. We weren't the injured party so we have no grounds to incur the damage on the responsible party, proportional or not.

3.  It sent a message to our geopolitical opponents that there are some things we aren't going to accept.
Agreed. But it also sends a message that there are things we ARE going to accept, namely killing shitloads of children with means other than chemical weapons. So it turns out our message is pretty stupid and meaningless, but it does provide us with a reason to pat ourselves on the back and to shoot some cool missiles and play at war.

4.  It sent a message to our allies that we haven't completely withdrawn from our defense responsibilities.
Gonna disagree on this one. We have no responsibility, by formal treaty or otherwise, to protect citizens of other countries from their own shitty government. But for the sake of argument lets just assume that the people gassed to death by the Syrian government were, in fact, our allies. What will our other allies take away from our actions in Syria? "We can count on our ally the USofA to use some long range missiles to attack our enemies from a safe distance once we've died by the tens or hundreds of thousands and lost almost all our territory... AND THEN AFTER a few dozen more of us are killed by poison gas." I'm sure they're very reassured.

Also, our allies should take heart that we'll stick with them no matter what from Trump's recent glad handing with the Egyptian dictator, who is actually our ally for realsies. That guy jails and tortures thousands of his own citizens, EVEN AMERICANS, and Trump still loves the guy!

We cannot allow a regime to set the precedent that gassing civilians is something you can get away with without immediate consequences. This is a liberal position.
You spend a lot of time arguing on the GDB that a lot of liberal activism is mere pointless performance and misses the forest for the trees. Guess what? Getting incensed about killing civilians with chemical weapons while shrugging at massive civilian deaths from conventional weapons is a pointless performance and means jack shit to the last 10,000 or next 10,000 Syrian civilians that will be killed in this civil war using conventional weapons.

Y'all need to separate your loathing for Donald Trump from the facts and circumstances in this case.

The sick fact is that all presidents since at least Reagan have done the same thing under similar circumstances, and Hillary Clinton supports this move and probably would have done the same thing. But that doesn't make it right.
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Yam

  • Posts: 7560
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #976 on: April 07, 2017, 03:02:45 PM »
Why are we intervening in Syria again? Every chemical weapon Assad deploys against his own people is one less he might lose control of to ISIS.

Because Trump has been getting beat up in the news cycle but the media and Congress (including supposed liberals there) love it when presidents shoot missiles at brown people?

Boom boom good boom boom strong.


edit: links added

More accurately:  missiles were fired to destroy infrastructure that was used to kill brown people.  This was the right call for several reasons:

1.  The operation itself was essentially risk-free with respect to American personnel.
2.  It was arguably proportional.  That is, the damage was incurred (presumably) by the responsible party.
3.  It sent a message to our geopolitical opponents that there are some things we aren't going to accept.
4.  It sent a message to our allies that we haven't completely withdrawn from our defense responsibilities.

We cannot allow a regime to set the precedent that gassing civilians is something you can get away with without immediate consequences.  This is a liberal position.  Y'all need to separate your loathing for Donald Trump from the facts and circumstances in this case.

Agreed.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8178
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #977 on: April 07, 2017, 04:34:42 PM »
Furthering the notion that the strikes were, at best, insubstantial showboating:

Syria was warned of US strike threat: military source
https://www.yahoo.com/news/syria-warned-us-strike-threat-military-source-160050068.html

Quote
Damascus (AFP) - Syria's armed forces were warned about the threat of American military action hours before the US strike on the Shayrat airbase on Friday, a military source said.

"We learned of the American threat and the expected military bombardment on Syrian territory," the source told AFP.

"We took precautions in more than one military point, including in the Shayrat airbase. We moved a number of airplanes towards other areas," the official said, adding they were forewarned "hours" before the strike.

Eyewitness says Syrian military anticipated U.S. raid
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/eyewitness-says-syrian-military-anticipated-u-raid-080200931--abc-news-topstories.html
Quote
Syrian military officials appeared to anticipate Thursday night's raid on Syria's Shayrat air base, evacuating personnel and moving equipment ahead of the strike, according to an eyewitness.

This was a $60 million dollar fireworks show.

I would have been more impressed if Trump had directly targeted Assad, or at least his family.
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Sayyadina

  • Posts: 328
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #978 on: April 07, 2017, 04:54:22 PM »
Furthering the notion that the strikes were, at best, insubstantial showboating:

Syria was warned of US strike threat: military source
https://www.yahoo.com/news/syria-warned-us-strike-threat-military-source-160050068.html

Quote
Damascus (AFP) - Syria's armed forces were warned about the threat of American military action hours before the US strike on the Shayrat airbase on Friday, a military source said.

"We learned of the American threat and the expected military bombardment on Syrian territory," the source told AFP.

"We took precautions in more than one military point, including in the Shayrat airbase. We moved a number of airplanes towards other areas," the official said, adding they were forewarned "hours" before the strike.

Eyewitness says Syrian military anticipated U.S. raid
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/eyewitness-says-syrian-military-anticipated-u-raid-080200931--abc-news-topstories.html
Quote
Syrian military officials appeared to anticipate Thursday night's raid on Syria's Shayrat air base, evacuating personnel and moving equipment ahead of the strike, according to an eyewitness.

This was a $60 million dollar fireworks show.

I would have been more impressed if Trump had directly targeted Assad, or at least his family.

...aaaannnd Reuters has tweeted a report that the air base is back in action with warplanes having taken off for more strikes in the countryside. I'm sure that if the children killed by those warplanes don't die from chemical weapons, we can all at least agree that the missile attack was a great success.
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BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8178
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #979 on: April 07, 2017, 06:41:57 PM »
I don't think anyone's surprised that Assad still has the weapons. It is a little surprising that he felt the need to use them when for all intents and purposes he's winning the war. Maybe if Trump hadn't pulled back from the US position that Assad "has to go" he wouldn't have felt like he suddenly had the diplomatic cover necessary to use them?

Also because I'm a dumb fish, I don't think Obama was spying on Trump (at least not personally or through his microwave or anything) but he should have been. Trump's a lot more of a threat to America than any Arab.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 06:55:39 PM by BadSkeelz »
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Synthesis

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #980 on: April 08, 2017, 04:07:13 AM »
More accurately:  missiles were fired to destroy infrastructure that was used to kill brown people. 
I'm sure the children gassed to death by Assad's regime are happy knowing that a handful of Syrian government soldiers were killed in their name.

This was the right call for several reasons:

1.  The operation itself was essentially risk-free with respect to American personnel.
Agreed on this point.

2.  It was arguably proportional.  That is, the damage was incurred (presumably) by the responsible party.
Agreed that it was arguably proportional. But the question of proportionality is secondary to jurisdiction. We weren't the injured party so we have no grounds to incur the damage on the responsible party, proportional or not.

3.  It sent a message to our geopolitical opponents that there are some things we aren't going to accept.
Agreed. But it also sends a message that there are things we ARE going to accept, namely killing shitloads of children with means other than chemical weapons. So it turns out our message is pretty stupid and meaningless, but it does provide us with a reason to pat ourselves on the back and to shoot some cool missiles and play at war.

4.  It sent a message to our allies that we haven't completely withdrawn from our defense responsibilities.
Gonna disagree on this one. We have no responsibility, by formal treaty or otherwise, to protect citizens of other countries from their own shitty government. But for the sake of argument lets just assume that the people gassed to death by the Syrian government were, in fact, our allies. What will our other allies take away from our actions in Syria? "We can count on our ally the USofA to use some long range missiles to attack our enemies from a safe distance once we've died by the tens or hundreds of thousands and lost almost all our territory... AND THEN AFTER a few dozen more of us are killed by poison gas." I'm sure they're very reassured.

Also, our allies should take heart that we'll stick with them no matter what from Trump's recent glad handing with the Egyptian dictator, who is actually our ally for realsies. That guy jails and tortures thousands of his own citizens, EVEN AMERICANS, and Trump still loves the guy!

We cannot allow a regime to set the precedent that gassing civilians is something you can get away with without immediate consequences. This is a liberal position.
You spend a lot of time arguing on the GDB that a lot of liberal activism is mere pointless performance and misses the forest for the trees. Guess what? Getting incensed about killing civilians with chemical weapons while shrugging at massive civilian deaths from conventional weapons is a pointless performance and means jack shit to the last 10,000 or next 10,000 Syrian civilians that will be killed in this civil war using conventional weapons.

Y'all need to separate your loathing for Donald Trump from the facts and circumstances in this case.

The sick fact is that all presidents since at least Reagan have done the same thing under similar circumstances, and Hillary Clinton supports this move and probably would have done the same thing. But that doesn't make it right.

The strike wasn't intended to avenge deaths, shift the tide of the civil war, prevent future civilian deaths, effect regime change, or ensure world peace or whatever...so the fact that it doesn't accomplish those goals is just a distracting argument.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #981 on: April 08, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
So other than pushing Raytheon's stock up a percentage point or two, what did it accomplish?

It didn't tell our allies "we'll stand by them" because 1) the Syrian people are not our allies and 2) we haven't really done anything to stop Assad from killing people via conventional means. The Baltics and Poland better hope the Russians drop WMDs in the opening salvo because I wouldn't be convinced America would show up otherwise.

I guess it might prevent future chemical strikes (I'm guessing it won't), but that's a hollow achievement when conventional killing is still completely OK (and continues on a vastly larger scale) and doesn't even warrant a showboating response.
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Sayyadina

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #982 on: April 08, 2017, 08:40:49 AM »
So other than pushing Raytheon's stock up a percentage point or two, what did it accomplish?

It didn't tell our allies "we'll stand by them" because 1) the Syrian people are not our allies and 2) we haven't really done anything to stop Assad from killing people via conventional means. The Baltics and Poland better hope the Russians drop WMDs in the opening salvo because I wouldn't be convinced America would show up otherwise.

I guess it might prevent future chemical strikes (I'm guessing it won't), but that's a hollow achievement when conventional killing is still completely OK (and continues on a vastly larger scale) and doesn't even warrant a showboating response.

Don't be such a downer and look on the bright side: we also killed a handful of brown skinned peons in this completely unauthorized act of war. Give our $60-90 million worth of long range explosives some credit!
“No more should you doubt this, my prince – my sisters and I shall not wait ten-and-seven years for our vengeance.”

--Lady Nymeria Sand, A Feast for Crows

Sayyadina

  • Posts: 328
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #983 on: April 08, 2017, 10:37:54 AM »
Nunez being replaced by Trey "The Bulldog" Goedy, Gorsuch confirmed for SCOTUS, Susan Rice requesting the unmasking of Trump/Trumps people, Syria strikes, Tesla shares up like fifty bucks. Not a bad week, all in all I guess. Should be interesting to see how things shake out over the next month.

Dan, you clearly like and trust Trump and you list the missile attack on the Syrian government as a success.  So I'm very curious what you think the missile attack will achieve, what you think Trump should do in Syria more broadly (if anything), and lastly given your first two answers what you think Syria is most likely to look like at the end of Trump's first term.

My answers are as follows:
1. Nothing of substance that will save lives in the short, medium, or long term.
2. The same thing I advocated in 2013:
But we can’t just do nothing, right?  I haven’t explicitly said so previously in this thread, but I’m in favor of an aggressive effort to provide humanitarian aid to the refugees and to permit mass emigration to “safe” countries, including the US (which is a contrast to how we’ve shamefully failed as a country to help our Iraqi supporters find refuge in the US).
3. Syria will still be in the midst of a civil war with all factions led by murderous assholes.
“No more should you doubt this, my prince – my sisters and I shall not wait ten-and-seven years for our vengeance.”

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Yam

  • Posts: 7560
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #984 on: April 08, 2017, 01:38:27 PM »
Don't be such a downer and look on the bright side: we also killed a handful of brown skinned peons in this completely unauthorized act of war. Give our $60-90 million worth of long range explosives some credit!

The thread finally reached peak stupid.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8178
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #985 on: April 08, 2017, 04:59:36 PM »
I'd want a return of at least one Syrian per missile to feel like we weren't pissing our Tomahawks away. The Syrian government said we killed some kids but I can't take their word for it.

We did manage to kill a mother and her six children in another airstrike lately, presumably with something cheaper than a $1mil missile, so we're not completely inept.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/activists-coalition-airstrike-boat-kills-7-civilians-144711792.html
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HavokBlue

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #986 on: April 09, 2017, 07:25:59 PM »
I met John Lewis today, which was really neat, and also Nancy Pelosi, which was considerably less neat.
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Is Friday

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #987 on: April 09, 2017, 09:13:58 PM »
If we end up in direct conflict before my tour on recruiting is over I'll probably withdraw my officer package in order to get back in the fight . MOPP suits sure do suck, though.
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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #988 on: April 10, 2017, 11:00:26 AM »
If we end up in direct conflict before my tour on recruiting is over I'll probably withdraw my officer package in order to get back in the fight . MOPP suits sure do suck, though.

I really doubt we'll see direct conflict. It was a  measured response that sent the intended message. I'm guessing the next such message with be shooting NK missile tests down and Kim won't do shit.
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Dan

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #989 on: April 10, 2017, 11:12:59 AM »
Nunez being replaced by Trey "The Bulldog" Goedy, Gorsuch confirmed for SCOTUS, Susan Rice requesting the unmasking of Trump/Trumps people, Syria strikes, Tesla shares up like fifty bucks. Not a bad week, all in all I guess. Should be interesting to see how things shake out over the next month.

Dan, you clearly like and trust Trump and you list the missile attack on the Syrian government as a success.  So I'm very curious what you think the missile attack will achieve, what you think Trump should do in Syria more broadly (if anything), and lastly given your first two answers what you think Syria is most likely to look like at the end of Trump's first term.

My answers are as follows:
1. Nothing of substance that will save lives in the short, medium, or long term.
2. The same thing I advocated in 2013:
But we can’t just do nothing, right?  I haven’t explicitly said so previously in this thread, but I’m in favor of an aggressive effort to provide humanitarian aid to the refugees and to permit mass emigration to “safe” countries, including the US (which is a contrast to how we’ve shamefully failed as a country to help our Iraqi supporters find refuge in the US).
3. Syria will still be in the midst of a civil war with all factions led by murderous assholes.

I hope at the very least the missile attack will cause them to pause before using more chemical weapons, and expect a response from us if they do. It may not save lives, or it may, but at the least it's less likely those lives will be lost to chlorine gas or sarin, whatever. I'm pretty sure most of us could agree that if we were to die it's preferable to be from a bullet or bomb than a chemical weapon where you have time to contemplate the insides of your lungs boiling.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8178
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #990 on: April 10, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
If we end up in direct conflict before my tour on recruiting is over I'll probably withdraw my officer package in order to get back in the fight . MOPP suits sure do suck, though.

I really doubt we'll see direct conflict. It was a  measured response that sent the intended message. I'm guessing the next such message with be shooting NK missile tests down and Kim won't do shit.

Whose lives would be protecting/avenging in that scenario? The lives of fish in the Sea of Japan?

The only appropriate shootdown scenario for a North Korean missile would be if it were going towards a population center in Japan or South Korea. We don't need to protect China; in fact the more Chinese killed in a North Korean-caused accident the better as it'll help further isolate the Kim regime.

Guessing "Kim won't do shit" is a far more serious gamble than betting Assad and his backers won't do anything serious. Last I heard we have 20-30,000 troops in South Korea, and Seoul is well within range of North Korean artillery. It's hard to say which regime is less rational but I would argue that the North Koreans are 1) crazier and 2) we have less data for how they'd react to such a provocation. The last big show-of-force I can recall against North Korean aggression was Operation Paul Bunyan which was 40 years and two eternal presidents ago. When the North Koreans shelled those islands a few years back did the South Koreans even do counter-battery fire? I think the Kim Jong Un regime is a much more unstable than his father's or grandfather's and that might encourage him to lash out for a 'rally around the flag' effect. Kind of like how Trump did.

Shooting down a North Korean missile test accomplishes nothing but to put thousands of American and South Korean lives at direct risk.
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Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Re: The current Prez
« Reply #991 on: April 10, 2017, 03:45:09 PM »
If we end up in direct conflict before my tour on recruiting is over I'll probably withdraw my officer package in order to get back in the fight . MOPP suits sure do suck, though.

I really doubt we'll see direct conflict. It was a  measured response that sent the intended message. I'm guessing the next such message with be shooting NK missile tests down and Kim won't do shit.

Whose lives would be protecting/avenging in that scenario? The lives of fish in the Sea of Japan?

The only appropriate shootdown scenario for a North Korean missile would be if it were going towards a population center in Japan or South Korea. We don't need to protect China; in fact the more Chinese killed in a North Korean-caused accident the better as it'll help further isolate the Kim regime.

Guessing "Kim won't do shit" is a far more serious gamble than betting Assad and his backers won't do anything serious. Last I heard we have 20-30,000 troops in South Korea, and Seoul is well within range of North Korean artillery. It's hard to say which regime is less rational but I would argue that the North Koreans are 1) crazier and 2) we have less data for how they'd react to such a provocation. The last big show-of-force I can recall against North Korean aggression was Operation Paul Bunyan which was 40 years and two eternal presidents ago. When the North Koreans shelled those islands a few years back did the South Koreans even do counter-battery fire? I think the Kim Jong Un regime is a much more unstable than his father's or grandfather's and that might encourage him to lash out for a 'rally around the flag' effect. Kind of like how Trump did.

Shooting down a North Korean missile test accomplishes nothing but to put thousands of American and South Korean lives at direct risk.

It isn't even really a question. We've come very close to shooting them down recently anyway. It accomplishes two things, first telling him we aren't entertaining his attempts to extend his reach further than Guam any longer, and secondly that we aren't going to allow unstable dictators nuclear arsenals capable of accurately reaching their destination. The only real gamble is the situation where we allow Kim to expand his ICBM capabilities beyond rudimentary rocket lobbing across the ocean into something resembling an actual weapons program.
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I am the captain of my soul.

BadSkeelz

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #992 on: April 10, 2017, 04:18:35 PM »
Unless you also destroy the factories, the infrastructure, the science teams, the technicians, and basically the entire State desiring these weapons, there's no way to stop a state (unstable dictator or not) from acquiring whatever they want. At best you delay the acquisition of weapon systems, but you'll never stop them completely. If you don't want North Korean missiles pointed at us at all, the only permanent solution is regime change in North Korea.

However, we've had hostile powers pointing nuclear weapons at us for the last 60 something years (in far greater amounts than the North Koreans will ever manage) without us succumbing to the urge to shoot down a Russian or a Chinese or a French test missile just to send them a message. The promise of proportionate retaliation (up to Mutually Assured Destruction) to actual aggression has kept the nuclear balance pretty successfully thus far.

Kim can already kill thousands to millions of people with his conventional military and the rudimentary weapon systems he has now. He just has to get a bomb across the border to take out Seoul, and Japan is mostly in reach. If Kim wants to continue to expend resources on trying to get a missile that will reach America, fine by me. We can probably intercept it. In the meantime the North Koreans are that much closer to completely collapsing their economy.

Shooting down a North Korean test missile accomplishes nothing but to inflame a situation that, however their saber rattling might scare you, is more or less stable.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:21:47 PM by BadSkeelz »
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BadSkeelz

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #993 on: April 10, 2017, 04:20:33 PM »
All that said, there is the theory that Trump's strike on Syria, as stupid and ineffectual as it is in regards to Syria, might have sent Kim and North Korea the message that Trump is crazy enough to react to a missile launch test and cause Kim to back off from any future tests. Basically the Mad Bomber approach.
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HavokBlue

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #994 on: April 10, 2017, 07:55:42 PM »
The talk about stationing nuclear weapons in South Korea sounds dumb and also not something that South Korea will be okay with.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #995 on: April 10, 2017, 08:00:53 PM »
Also counter-productive as they'd be well within range of a pre-emptive strike targeting the airbases or bunkers they're held at. Bombers or missiles out of Guam or even Okinawa would still get the job done.
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Dan

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #996 on: April 11, 2017, 09:09:41 AM »
China amassing 150K troops on NK border and turning away NK coal shipments after Presidents Xi Jinping and Trump meet.
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Is Friday

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #997 on: April 11, 2017, 10:36:57 AM »
I hope I'm able to get into the Platoon Sergeant course and assigned to a battalion in time. Gonna be sick, bros.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #998 on: April 11, 2017, 01:52:48 PM »
South Korea better pick a new President quick before Trump starts a war there to distract from his own flailing domestic agenda.
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Molten Heart

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Re: The current Prez
« Reply #999 on: May 09, 2017, 07:19:16 PM »
Trump fired FBI Director James Comey. What's happening?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:24:15 PM by Molten Heart »