Player from a long time ago - not coming back.

[Lael]

Hey there,

Tried to apply for a character, denied because I needed to be in a coded clan - tried to special app a desert elf magicker - denied because it's against the docs (and denied in a condescending manner, as well).

Don't have the time or inclination to roleplay in a tribal group setting. I do however like the cultural roleplay, and meeting people on the fly in the wastes.

So I wanted to play a desert-elf wanderer, but I guess the idea of one of those is too far-fetched and doesn't fit into this game. Play they way they want you to or go elsewhere, unfortunately.

Really, it's quite strange, I get that they aren't making money doing this, so they don't have to cater to a customer, but it seems a little weird to behave in this manner. Anyways, I played for seven-ish years, but it's probably been eight since I played last. Got a little nostalgic - I guess it's better left in the past.

Not for me anymore, but I do hope you're still running the sands! Stay safe out there!

[Delirium]

Roll the same concept up as a human tribal. They're less xenophobic than elves.

[whitt]

I think the issue is more that there are no tribeless desert elves to be out wandering.

[Jingo]

I don't think lone desert elves have even been playable in 15 years.

[Lael]

Eh, it's just the attitude. I've been trusted to play much more sensitive stuff than this in the past, and I've played a heck of a lot of wandering desert elves. Hell, I'm 33 years old, and I have to roleplay in the manner that works for them? I definitely have better things to do.

Honestly I got a lot of enjoyment out of arm back in the day, and the Imms back then (that I dealt with anyways) seemed nice and like they enjoyed the game for what we all made it. I know this is silly, I haven't played in a long time so I can't say what it's like now, but just ... I don't think I want to play in their fishbowl with their setup pieces for them to move this way and that. I get that there are rules and they have to consider the game as a whole, but like - "No tribeless desert elves, the game can't handle that."

Haha, okay then. I'll move along.

[Jingo]

If I spec apped a lone desert elf; I wouldn't get it even with my karma.

I'd say just give one of the tribes a try. Even though they're not for everyone. Or play a lone human/half-elf wandering type.

[Riev]

Honestly it HAS been a while since Desert Elves could be considered Tribeless. Last -closest- one was Shattered as the last Silt Wind, but she technically was still part of a tribe.

Maybe you just caught the wrong staffer on the wrong day, or they assumed you were a current player with an old account.

The game is VERY insular these days. Its like anyone talking about "back in my day, we had mantis IN THE BAR". Nobody admits it happened. Ever. Nope. Never could, that's so foolish.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Lone Desert Elves haven't been playing for a long while now, let alone a Desert Elf Magicker.  People like to play within worlds that have a culture to it, letting some play anything they want breaks away from the culture and immersion.  Lone elves just don't make any sense for a Desert Elf in the first place, they are so set on tribe, that tribe is everything.

Staff are the DMs, they control the world that we play in, which also includes its culture.  I play within this world because I like this culture and structure.  If you want to go play whatever you want, go find a game that allows you to play what you want.  Have a good one!

[Lael]

I find (or found) desert elves a bit annoying in larger groups.

I appreciate you trying, but it's not that I didn't get the character that I wanted and so I'm leaving - The game has changed since I played, I guess.

Seems like there is a lot of people that still play and enjoy it, that's cool.

Sounds like you have high karma, can you give me a logical-human reason why you shouldn't be allowed to play a lone desert elf? What terrible havoks could you wreak? If they are trying to condense the population to keep the game alive for everyone, sure, keep certain things rare. Maybe make it require a special app. But straight up 'No, and didn't you read it the first time!?'

I get 'desert elf culture' - so if a Soh desert elf happened to be a magicker and escaped being executed or was cast out ... that doesn't add to the story? That takes away? I get it, they do the work, they want to tell their story, and that's their perogative. I want to tell mine, is all.

[th3kaiser]

While lone delves don't make a ton of sense these days, I'd be crazy excited if staff opened up the create your own tribe thing for delves. Delves are amazing, do I want to play in the currently available tribes? No. A change like that would actually have me make a PC.

[Delirium]

I remember the days of lone desert elf magickers.

I'm okay with them being entirely virtual.

[Akaramu]

Sounds like you have high karma, can you give me a logical-human reason why you shouldn't be allowed to play a lone desert elf? What terrible havoks could you wreak? If they are trying to condense the population to keep the game alive for everyone, sure, keep certain things rare. Maybe make it require a special app. But straight up 'No, and didn't you read it the first time!?'

I get 'desert elf culture' - so if a Soh desert elf happened to be a magicker and escaped being executed or was cast out ... that doesn't add to the story? That takes away? I get it, they do the work, they want to tell their story, and that's their perogative. I want to tell mine, is all.

From my limited understanding as a veteran player who never actually played a desert elf but heard the stories, desert elves have certain coded benefits that can, depending on how they're being played, make them massively overpowered ESPECIALLY if they're magickers. There was a discussion recently where several people complained they don't want to play human tribals anymore because of how oppressing desert elves can be, and often are - and those are the clanned desert elves which are bound by tribe politics. Tribe politics keep PCs in check at least somewhat, and prevent them from doing things that would be codedly possible but harmful to the game. (For instance, single-handedly exterminating another tribe that players love to play in).

[Lael]

More op than a mul warrior? or a psionicist? 'Karma is trust'

[bcw81]

More op than a mul warrior? or a psionicist? 'Karma is trust'

Also blocked from play: Mul magicker. Psionicist magicker.

[Akaramu]

Definitely more op than those, yes. I've never played a mul, but I know they have certain weaknesses and issues that keep them from being overpowered. They're also nowhere near as OP in the wildnerness as desert elves are.

I've played a psionicist and they must adhere to certain guidelines. For instance, they have to practice their skills on PCs instead of NPCs, which means a chance of being found out and reported if they get a critical skill fail.

Desert elf magicker guidelines are that they must belong to a clan.

[RogueGunslinger]

[seidhr]

Having karma does not mean you can play things that are against the rules, go against the docs for tribes, or not a combination that we allow for play (for anyone).

You can certainly always ask about playing something unusual, but we reserve the right to deny it and if you construe having your idea denied (in completely neutral language) as being condescending, well - good luck out there!

We don't allow tribeless d-elves, period.  If you were to start a d-elf in a tribe, and get exiled, you get stored.  That has happened.

As an aside, having not played for 8 years and wanting to make a comeback as some kind of PC that goes against norms is simply not going to happen.

[Jingo]

An emergence of new and interesting tribes would be cool. We have been stuck with the same ones for a few years now.

[RogueGunslinger]

C-elf tribe first plz thanks.

[Reiloth]

Of course the game has changed in the last eight years. However, even eight years ago, desert elf loners were a rarity (only met one), and were honestly out of place and weird (Desert Elf in the Labyrinth? Bizarre).

It sounds like you're trying to jam a square peg into a circular hole. The game isn't static -- And while I do love picking up Grim Fandango or Baldur's Gate II for the very reason that it hasn't changed in X amount of years, ArmageddonMUD will never hold that place in anyone's hearts, because it's dynamic and changes over time.

I think it's for the better, you may believe it's for the worse. I'd recommend playing something simple and see if it's fun for you anymore. If not, it'll be here to try again 8 years down the line.

[Jingo]

Arn't T'zai Byn and Kuraci desert elves a possibility still? I feel like they should be.

[Reiloth]

Arn't T'zai Byn and Kuraci desert elves a possibility still? I feel like they should be.

Why? For the same reasons a Desert Elf was bizarre and outlandish living in the Labyrinth, a Desert Elf tied to/living in a city or even the Outpost is alien to their psyche. Not to mention 'following the rules' or 'doing what some round ear says'.

[wizturbo]

Tried to apply for a character, denied because I needed to be in a coded clan - tried to special app a desert elf magicker - denied because it's against the docs (and denied in a condescending manner, as well).

In the past the staff were much more loosey-goosey about letting people play 'exceptions'.  It created all kinds of problems of perceived (or actual) favoritism, and skewed the fantasy of the world to the point that the exceptions started to feel more common than the rule.  Now they actually follow the rules they've set out.  If you want to be able to be a super special snowflake (in a world where there are tons of crazy exceptional things that are well within the rules), then yeah, this probably isn't the game for you.

As for your comment about them coming off as condescending...  Stop for a moment and do a reality check here.  This isn't a paid game, you aren't a customer, and the people running this game aren't customer service representatives.  They're players who've for the most part chosen to be dungeon masters instead of playing as much themselves.  When they're going through special apps they're essentially doing grunt administrative work.  Most of them have probably reviewed hundreds of special applications, and seen hundreds of special snowflake 'break the rules' kind of requests.  This isn't the first time they've denied this, it won't be the last. 

In that context, what exactly are you expecting?  A hand written, sympathetic explanation about how they think your idea is really cool but have policies against it, and here's a detailed background on those policies to help make you feel better about having to reject your app?  Is it realistic to expect that?  It would take a lot of time.   Big picture wise, do you really even want the game's leadership spending all their time on that instead of making cool shit happen?  I don't.  Now with all that said, I sometimes get grumpy about the terse nature of some responses from staff.  It can feel bad.  But if I just sit back and remind myself what their role is, that grumpiness quickly fades and I get back to having fun again. 

Just my two cents.  If you were checking out the game because you felt some nostalgia and were thinking about getting back into, get back into it!  Honestly, some of these rules are in place because fringe concepts like what you suggested will be boring as shit to play.  Try rolling up a character that's "normal" and you're almost certainly going to have a good time.  The caliber of roleplayers in Armageddon are second to none, and I'm reminded of that everyday.

[Patuk]

C-elf tribe first plz thanks.

A what tribe?

[Lael]

Wow, what a big stir up over a relatively small thing. You guys can enjoy it, I have no problem with that. Me not coming back shouldn't affect how you feel about it.

I'm not a 'super special snowflake', but it sounds like you see those everywhere. It takes very little to turn the tone of a response from pleasant to sour or vice versa, (such as underlining things that don't need underlining, seidhr?). Tone is also hard to read/write correctly, so maybe I got it wrong, maybe he got it wrong, it's not something I'll worry about.

Heh, "In that context, what exactly are you expecting?  A hand written, sympathetic explanation about how they think your idea is really cool but have policies against it, and here's a detailed background on those policies to help make you feel better about having to reject your app?" That's more than a few words in my mouth, from my otherwise completely neutral wording *ahem* (disclaimer, I know it's not), right? My idea wasn't cool or unusual, it was fairly plain. Heh, half-giant magickers were a thing until fairly recently, from what I can tell. I think I have like 8-10 of these guys in my history. It's unusual in the sense that it's not allowed anymore, but if you think that the idea of a desert elf magicker is so unlikely, then I'd like to see what fantasy books you've been reading.

You are 100% in the right in doing whatever you want with the mud, it's your mud. I like more freedom. You store a character because he runs away? Yikes, 'don't enjoy the world for the scenery, the writing, the flavour, you have you play in a tribe. The number of enjoyments will be three. Not two enjoyments, not four enjoyments...  five is right out!'

And yep, the game has changed, totally natural and nothing wrong with that either. I wanted to see what it was like now, in a role I played many times. I can't - no big deal.

Maybe I'm writing this wrong - I'm not really too bent out of shape about it, I mean I feel a little 'poked at' now by some of the responses, but I had a fond memory the other night about it and wanted to see what was up. The role I wanted is 'closed', and to me that means the game isn't for me anymore - more serious, less fun (disclaimer - to me! you enjoy it as you have been all along!).

Just to reminisce, I'll share a few memories that I had.

1. Lots of the funny wording jokes that come up, ie. Standing in the middle of the salt flats >forage salt. You don't seem to see any salt here. >Think That's funny, I could have swore I came to the salt flats. My friends and I used to pull these jokes irl for quite awhile. Or coming up with emotes of failing to poison a blade 'accidentally stabs himself' or things like that.

2. One time, I managed a little sleight of hand and switched drinks on an uppity rich noble type, essentially making him drink poo-water. He didn't die, and maybe that was a little hokey (how could you possibly drink it without noticing) but man, did we laugh at that one.

3. Greatest involvement from an imm - got stuck down a ... well someplace I wasn't supposed to be. Wandering around unable to see, an imm went into a NPC and said he could get me out, so long as I paid his price, bringing him the head of someone with blue eyes within three days. I died in the attempt but dang, that was cool.
3.5 Oh second greatest ... another place I wasn't supposed to be. Had been there a ton of times, thought it was empty. It wasn't! First time I saw the things I saw there.

4. Exploring - love the world here. Always wanted to visit a real desert. One time, way further than I'd gone before, I managed to find a hidden passage leading ... somewhere, but then I got jumped. Always wanted to make it back and see what was through there.

5. Ooh, I was an escaped mul - half giant merchant saw me and bopped me over the head. I woke up tied up. Managed to escape (well, rp escaping, hopefully it was ic enough Would 1 little rope tied by a giants thick fingers, around the wrists, hold a mul?) After a bit of scene the half giant shouted 'spare me mul' and I didn't. I was an enraged mul, you were gonna sell my fancy mul into slavery, what the heck do you think I was gonna do! Don't get them mad when you're alone.

6. Haha, I won the kuraci pepper eating contest, I'd forgotten about that. I felt loopy as heck, and went out into the (sandstorm?) night, hard-coded vomiting, sweating, etc. Think I got rolled for the prize money, don't remember, but those were some fun scenes.

7. Red storm, loved that place, loved the whole southern border. Several of my first few characters died in those alleyways.

8. Sanvean, is she still around? she was always super nice.

9. Oh once there was this huge battle in the north, I was running around looting, that was just cool to see.

Anyways folks, goodbye! Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. Thanks for the memories.

[Jingo]

Arn't T'zai Byn and Kuraci desert elves a possibility still? I feel like they should be.

Why? For the same reasons a Desert Elf was bizarre and outlandish living in the Labyrinth, a Desert Elf tied to/living in a city or even the Outpost is alien to their psyche. Not to mention 'following the rules' or 'doing what some round ear says'.

I don't think there's anything necessarily outlandish about it. Desert elves and city elves have proven to adapt well to their enviroment. And doesn't the elf RP documentation that elves are constantly moving within and without the cities, outposts etc. anyways?

Here it is.

The elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move. Very few tribes have actually settled absolutely into a given place, and those that have will feel a need to extend their influence as far as possible. For city-dwelling tribes, this redirection of old nomadic instincts can be subtle - domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city; the nature of this will vary from tribe to tribe, but will universally add to the problems they cause for the rest of the occupants of the city.

Not to mention there are plenty of elves represented in Kurac and the T'zai byn. I vaguely recall this being changed recently though.

[Malken]

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

[Jingo]

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

It would be a qualifiably different experience from playing your typical city-elf.

[Malken]

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

[Jingo]

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

There have been plenty of city elves in these clans. But they're limited in their usefulness because they don't travel well. That's always been the problem with elves and military clans. And even then, Kurac has a few notable examples of some crazy/scary elves.

So give it desert-elf-run and give it the same restrictions as any desert elf. And yes, that means they'll be stored if they leave the clan.

I don't see what makes it so radical. I think it's just player headcanon that makes the role more complicated than it needs to be.

[wizturbo]

That's more than a few words in my mouth, from my otherwise completely neutral wording *ahem* (disclaimer, I know it's not), right?

I wasn't trying to say that's what you think, I'm just saying you've got to expect most staff interactions to be terse, and that rarely paints what they say in a positive light, especially when the answer is 'no'.  I was mostly trying to say what they could do to make you feel better about the situation, but that to do that isn't always realistic. 

I'd like to think that if I was on staff, I would spend the time to make people feel better when I gave them news they wouldn't like...  But honestly, after a hundred special app reviews I'm not sure I'd be able to maintain that.  Some of our staff have managed to maintain that, and it's pretty impressive, but I definitely don't look down on those who would rather spend their time doing something else. 

I guess all I was trying to say Lael is the way you phrased stuff came off as though staff are getting their rocks off by not letting you play the game you want to play.  I really doubt that's the case.  I really doubt they want to come off as condescending to a returning player.  In all likelihood, they WANT you to come back and play.  But it's unrealistic to think they're going to bend the rules for anyone.  It happened in the past, it was a problem, and those days are pretty long gone now.

Also, as a complete sidenote...  are you sure that was an Imm NPC giving you the 'find me heads' deal?  Because honestly, I had something similar happen many years ago and I was fairly sure it was a player at the time...  it's just that PC was so stupidly powerful that they could've easily been mistaken as staff.

[Akariel]

Desert elves need to apply to play in desert elf clans. Desert elves are codedly different from city elves, but there is only one race - elf - ICly. If you are playing an elf from a city (or outpost, or village) you would pick city elf. If you are playing an elf from the Soh Lannah Kah or the Sunrunners (or whatever other delf tribes might be opened in the future) you would pick desert elf.

Desert elves cannot join the Byn or Kurac or whatever.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Reiloth]

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

There have been plenty of city elves in these clans. But they're limited in their usefulness because they don't travel well. That's always been the problem with elves and military clans. And even then, Kurac has a few notable examples of some crazy/scary elves.

So give it desert-elf-run and give it the same restrictions as any desert elf. And yes, that means they'll be stored if they leave the clan.

I don't see what makes it so radical. I think it's just player headcanon that makes the role more complicated than it needs to be.

From Documentation:

Nomadic Wandering:
Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

Elven Pride:
From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.

Bolded some relevant pieces as to why the Desert Elf mentality may not be well suited to staying inside of a city "Because Sergeant told you to" or not to go around stabbing people "because they looked at you funny". I think even the Byn and Kurac would see why having a desert elf around would be even more of a liability than a trained slave Mul.

[Reiloth]

It does seem inconsistent that desert elves must be a member of one of the limited selections of coded clans/tribes and city elves are pretty much only affiliated with a virtual tribe as per their background, if at all. I'm not sure I understand how city elves get adopt d into the existing city elf tribes, or if they are born into them like desert elf character are.

This, however, does appear to be ironic. I think it is that Desert Elves are quite powerful codedly speaking, and city elves are not.

[Molten Heart]

.

[wizturbo]

This, however, does appear to be ironic. I think it is that Desert Elves are quite powerful codedly speaking, and city elves are not.

Probably yeah.  I remember when desert elves didn't need to be attached to a coded tribe, and essentially all the power gamer types who just wanted to gank people in the desert or be codedly stronger than others would choose to play d-elves.  The unaffiliated d-elf population is vastly larger than the ones attached to a coded clan.  It wasn't good.

[wizturbo]

The major differences between city and Desert elves from a code perspective is their guild choices (desert elves can choose "city" guilds and city elves can't choose "desert" guilds) also desert elves can travel further outside without having to rest than city elves, other than these difference, they are supposed to be the same race.

I haven't played a desert elf in a really, really long time.  I recall there being big other differences.  Bonus skills, stats, etc.  It was a karma race for more than just the roleplay expectation differences.

[Erythil]

I sympathize with this guy in that 'no' is often the default answer for anything that deviates from norms that have been established in the setting.  I'd like more unusual stuff, not less.

[Delirium]

My question is, honestly... if it's not a big deal and you didn't expect pushback... why start a thread?

[chrisdcoulombe]

I sympathize with this guy in that 'no' is often the default answer for anything that deviates from norms that have been established in the setting.  I'd like more unusual stuff, not less.

Agreed. 

[Bushranger]

8. Sanvean, is she still around? she was always super nice.

Sanvean is nice. She's off being successful and awesome.

[Nergal]

When staff reject an application we typically give you options on how to pursue a similar character, which if you look at the response you received, you did get that advice. It is up to you if you wish to follow it. Sorry that you won't be returning.

[seidhr]

This thread is closed I think, but I feel I need to respond, since he later clarified how I was apparently condescending in my response.  I've likely been guilty of being condescending in the past, but this time?  Nah dude.

My response to him, fwiw, was along these lines:

Sorry you can't do that because it's against the docs of [tribe] of origin.

You also can't do that because we don't allow tribeless desert elves.

You can (his emphasis on the underline, it seems!) <do this instead> as an alternative, if that interests you <follow these instructions>.

--

So I guess underlining "can" when giving an optional path that a player can definitely pursue, is considered condescending, in this guy's book.  I guess it just proves you can't make everyone happy.