Author Topic: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting  (Read 1684 times)

nessalin

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Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« on: January 20, 2017, 09:04:29 AM »
In order to help with the transition from the brew command to the craft command in the creation of cures and poisons this post will cover issues that came up during development and decisions that had to be made.


What Was Before

The brew command works off of two values found on 'herb' items (leaves, roots, berries), their taste and color (referred to by players as 'tint vision', not to be confused with what appears in the sdesc or keywords).  When providing the brew command with these items checks are made against a matrix of valid recipes.

An accepted combination of tastes apply a given poison or cure to the produced tablet (or vial).  The color of the tablet is selected randomly from the color of the ingredients.  Combining a blue and red herb will produce a blue OR red tablet.  Combining a blue, red, yellow herb will produce a blue, red, OR yellow tablet.

In this way the color of the tablet has only a loose association with what the tablet does.

As a result of confusion on our part items built over the years, having not had this knowledge available, some saved versions of tablets have cures and poisons on them.  This means that when some colors of tablet are produced they will have a cure-poison on them even if the tastes of the provided herbs were not a valid recipe.  This falsely gives the impression that color is directed tied to purpose.

And, so, some of the standard recipes used by players are, in fact, bugs.  Bugs that aren't present in the new system, meaning some cures and poisons will need further investigation when creating items from the brew command goes away.


What Is Now

The craft system is similar to brew in that the color and taste of herbs are taken into account.  The first major difference is that colors are combined, where possible, rather than chosen from randomly.  Combining a blue and red herb will produce a purple product - not a blue OR red product.  When combining herb colors that don't mix well 'gray' is produced, instead.

The produced item from crafting cures no longer have values saved on them - which means only the valid recipes from the legacy system are maintained.  The recipes being based entirely on combining the correct tastes.  This is the second major difference and probably most notable because it will impact which cures players were able to make under the old system but not the new one.  Please keep in mind that cures and poisons are still craftable but will require some experimentation to find the right combinations rather than being the result of bugs.

The final major change is that crafting herbs does not directly produce a vial or a tablet.  Instead a 'mash' item is produced (or a globule, lump, powder, etc...) of the correct color.  This item can either be consumed (with the eat command) directly to get the benefit from the cure or further crafted.  Crafting it into a tablet can be done without more ingredients.  If a vial is included then a vial with a cure is produced.

A change in this code related to vials is that they no longer disappear when they are used.  Drink, pour, or use the vial and you will be left with an empty vial.  This empty vial can be used to hold more cures.  This system also allows any valid vial object to be used rather than one vial that must be used universally.  Different regions and clans will have (hopefully) their own vials allowing characters to come up with their own system for which vial has which cure in it.

Likewise the color/taste system, now fixed in the new system, will allow characters to pick which 'acidic' herb they want to use in a recipe based on its color so that they can control the outcome.  Yellow may have cultural references for one character that makes it obvious it is a cure for bloodburn, while another culture may view Yellow as the intuitive color for a poison, not a cure.

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »
So in the old system, it was possible for two differently-colored cures to have the same curative effects? I can see where that would be confusing for staff and player alike.

However, with this new system, I assume that color WILL STILL have some bearing? Like, someone won't just give you a yellow 'mash', and MAYBE it cures bloodburn, but maybe it causes hallucinations?

Likewise the color/taste system, now fixed in the new system, will allow characters to pick which 'acidic' herb they want to use in a recipe based on its color so that they can control the outcome.  Yellow may have cultural references for one character that makes it obvious it is a cure for bloodburn, while another culture may view Yellow as the intuitive color for a poison, not a cure.

That's the part I'm referring to. I'm assuming, then, because there are multiple "yellow" items, that if you're trying to make a 'green' tablet, you can use any color of 'blue' and 'yellow' tint... but the last part makes it sound like cultural beliefs may preclude ever making a 'green' cure.
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Schrodingers Cat

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 10:02:48 AM »
What is the syntax to craft a brewed vial? I can't seem to figure it out.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 10:07:47 AM »
What is the syntax to craft a brewed vial? I can't seem to figure it out.

craft <mash item> <vial item> into #N

For these recipes you'll have to craft by recipe number, making sure to include the # symbol.

ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 10:47:53 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures? Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 10:56:15 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 10:57:45 AM »
This is going to make it really difficult (for better or worse) for people to sell cures/tablets to other PCs.

The ideal is that it'll open some flexibility to RP for potential cons, but the reality is nobody will trust you unless they can make them themselves or they have their best buddy make them for them.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 10:59:56 AM »
This is going to make it really difficult (for better or worse) for people to sell cures/tablets to other PCs.

The ideal is that it'll open some flexibility to RP for potential cons, but the reality is nobody will trust you unless they can make them themselves or they have their best buddy make them for them.

Excellent.

ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I think being able to assess it and have a certain attribute associated with certain cures would be great. I feel that otherwise, people may not trust cures at all anymore. I suppose this also means that there will be a lot of herbs that will become absolutely useless.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 11:06:00 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I think being able to assess it and have a certain attribute associated with certain cures would be great. I feel that otherwise, people may not trust cures at all anymore. I suppose this also means that there will be a lot of herbs that will become absolutely useless.

Every herb taste is currently usable in at least one recipe.

Meaning that there is no such thing as an useless herb.

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 11:06:45 AM »
sniff tablet
This has a mild smell of hot spices.

sniff vial
The contents smell of hot garbage.

sniff globule
This thing smells sickly sweet.


I feel like it would require far too many sniff messages, attached to too many objects. But I like the idea of "NO NOT THAT RED ONE, THAT ONE SMELLS LIKE KHEE!"
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Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 11:12:37 AM »
I mean, if you get poisoned, it's going to be a much bigger deal as you frantically sort through tablets to figure out which red tablet is the one you want, when realistically you should be able to have them separated out but code-wise all red tablets look the exact same. That's my hesitation - making sure that any difficulties are IC not syntax.
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nauta

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 11:16:10 AM »
Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I like the idea of eliminating the 'tint vision'.  Why?  Mainly, I was never sure (until the top post  by Nesselin in fact) if the 'tint' that you get from 'assess' was an IG phenomenon or an OOC construct.  Since it appears to be an IG phenomenon, I wasn't sure how to RP it, since very different colored and looking herbs sometimes had the same tint.  Was it something in the whorl of the flower, or in the stem or roots that we were seeing?  Or was it actually a kind of magickal-ish sixth sense that Zalanthans have?

What would we replace it with?

a) Nothing.  You'd just have to learn which herb produces what kind of cure mash and use the names of the herbs.  Well, my child, from my experience as the herbalist here, you'd want to use Sandspider, Makras, Runebane, or Bakri Cones to make a cure to the Angk's bite.  (Note: Example is made up.)

b) The 'sniff' command or 'taste' command would echo out a single keyword common to a group.  So for red tints, perhaps these are all 'bitter' in some way, and blue tints are all 'sour' in some way.  This also would allow you to keep the unique smells, some Runebane would smell: This smells like old gortok ass, with a bitter hint to it.  And Makras would smell: This smells like carnal conquest, with a hint of sour to it.  (Or something.)


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Ender

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 11:27:35 AM »
So I'm trying to wrap my head around these changes, and I'm clearly failing.

Old system:

I know what colors do what

red = cures boop
yellow = cures foop

brew tablet red red

I now have a red tablet that I know cures boop

brew tablet yellow yellow

I now have a yellow tablet that I know cures foop


New system:

craft yellow into #1

I now have a yellow lump that maybe cures foop depending on the taste of the yellow herb?
craft lump into tablet

I now have a red tablet I have no idea what cures anything if I mix it with other red tablets? Why would I ever brew a tablet?




Also, how does culture work into anything?  If I'm from a different culture I view different cures?  Different cures affect me differently, like my metabolism is somehow culturally different?  I'm really really confused by what that means.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:30:06 AM by Ender »
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2017, 11:31:13 AM »
sniff tablet
This has a mild smell of hot spices.

sniff vial
The contents smell of hot garbage.

sniff globule
This thing smells sickly sweet.


I feel like it would require far too many sniff messages, attached to too many objects. But I like the idea of "NO NOT THAT RED ONE, THAT ONE SMELLS LIKE KHEE!"

Sniff messages are not all per item instance values.  Many are derived from other values already on the item, which is likely how this would work.

It could also be a combination of sniff and taste, I suppose.  a^2 + b^2 == skellebain

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 11:31:58 AM »
Related to Ender's questioning:

If your yellow lump cures FOOP, and your red lump cures BOOP, when you mix them into a tablet it should make an orange tablet that cures both FOOP and BOOP. But that seems like a slippery slope, leading to a rainbow-colored cure-all.
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ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 11:55:32 AM »
If we happen to find herbs that do not have a taste and/or smell associated with them, can we submit them as a game bug to be added?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2017, 11:57:50 AM »
If we happen to find herbs that do not have a taste and/or smell associated with them, can we submit them as a game bug to be added?

Yes.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 12:09:54 PM »
Related to Ender's questioning:

If your yellow lump cures FOOP, and your red lump cures BOOP, when you mix them into a tablet it should make an orange tablet that cures both FOOP and BOOP. But that seems like a slippery slope, leading to a rainbow-colored cure-all.

I think it's reasonable to have up to two effects in one tablet. More than that could get too complicated for a game.

When I take benadryl it makes me sleepy AND makes me sniffle less. So...
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2017, 12:21:07 PM »
Old system:

I know what colors do what

red = cures boop
yellow = cures foop

brew tablet red red

I now have a red tablet that I know cures boop

brew tablet yellow yellow

I now have a yellow tablet that I know cures foop


While this is the perception it is not the reality.  Partly due to flaws in building, partly due to lack of experimentation.  It is quite possible to brew a red tablet that cures something other than the generally accepted and predicted cure/poison.  The same can be said of yellow.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 12:23:47 PM »
New system:

craft yellow into #1

I now have a yellow lump that maybe cures foop depending on the taste of the yellow herb?
craft lump into tablet

I now have a red tablet I have no idea what cures anything if I mix it with other red tablets? Why would I ever brew a tablet?

As stated, perhaps inelegantly, the issue of crafting a lump of one color into a tablet of another color (specifically red) was a building error on my part that was addressed in game.  While some lingering objects might be floating around in player inventories, they should work themselves out of the system soon enough.

The color of a mash always predicts the color of the tablet and the color of the liquid in a vial.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
Also, how does culture work into anything?  If I'm from a different culture I view different cures?  Different cures affect me differently, like my metabolism is somehow culturally different?  I'm really really confused by what that means.

This wasn't mean to mean physiology.   Rather that crafters now having the intended ability to control (within limits) the color of their mash/vial/tablet items, they can make those decisions based on their culture.

Provided two working recipes for the same cure, one that is pink and another that is yellow, a character may choose to always go with yellow for cultural reasons, while another character may decide always to go with pink .

More explicitly...
yellow-herb + blue-herb = green mash that cures poison1
red-herb + white-herb = pink mash that also cures poison1

When presented with these options a given character may decide to go with green because their cultural documentation associates it with purity and wellness.

Another character may decide to go with pink because green, in their culture, is to be avoided due to a local snake everyone fears.  Or perhaps pink is viewed as the obvious choice because of the saying, "In the pink of health."

Or, hell, maybe they make the choice to help them manage their inventory.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 12:53:20 PM »
I like the idea of this - however I do still have one question.

If we can't go by color any longer, how do we know what cures what?

Especially PCs who have long-since mastered brewing and have been mixing IC lore with OOC constraints for quite a while and will need to retcon some of their knowledge? If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.
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Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 12:59:45 PM »
If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.

Or, more to the issue at hand, why those hundred bloodburn cures suddenly look like those six terradin cures.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 01:04:09 PM »
If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.

Or, more to the issue at hand, why those hundred bloodburn cures suddenly look like those six terradin cures.

Existing cures in the game will continue to work.  Any cures you've got on your character or in a save room will continue working.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2017, 01:06:35 PM »
So...is there a way to assess/sniff/taste a vial or tablet in order to tell what it actually does, or is the final product a mystery known only to the original crafter until you use it?

If there -is- a unique assess/sniff/taste message for each particular type of cure, then it's just a brief learning curve, then everything is back to normal (which makes the feature more or less pointless in the long run). 

Well, you could have a unique assess/sniff/taste message that only those with the brew skill can access.

So the following scenario could happen, where the woman has the brew skill and is selling to the man:

The man is given a yellow, red, and green tablet.

The woman says, "The yellow one cures FOOP, the red one cures BOOP, and the green cures SHOOP."

The man needs to
a) trust that she's telling her the truth,
b) have the brew skill to properly assess that she's telling the truth, and/or
c) remember that this is indeed the case, as someone else might have an entirely different style of "color coding". This could also lead to having preferred "cure" vendors, etc, etc.

And even then she could mix in one poisoned red tablet with the other three good ones, and wait...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:09:34 PM by nessalin »
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2017, 01:08:41 PM »
I like the idea of this - however I do still have one question.

If we can't go by color any longer, how do we know what cures what?

The above-mentioned idea of using assess/sniff/taste will have to be added to make this happen.  Maybe this weekend.

The original intent was for crafter to know and others to guess, leading to some con jobs, lies, and so on - but that would be out weighed by confusion that would go along with the system.

Especially PCs who have long-since mastered brewing and have been mixing IC lore with OOC constraints for quite a while and will need to retcon some of their knowledge? If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2017, 01:25:02 PM »
Awesome. Thanks for clarifying.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2017, 01:51:01 PM »
This does sound like a pain in the ass. Can I buy just tablets from a NPC and be sure I'm not going to get killed by a lucky snake?

There was a post above mine that went missing but expressed concerns I agree with. I can't help but feel that this should have been a "Not broken don't fix" situation.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 02:06:36 PM by BadSkeelz »
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2017, 02:23:01 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but if Mash/Cure effect is determined by taste and not by color (or any other keyword), how are we going to quickly dig out cures to ingest while poisoned? Are we going to have to taste through a bunch of different, visually identical items that we can't pull out in any particular order?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2017, 02:23:36 PM »
This does sound like a pain in the ass. Can I buy just tablets from a NPC and be sure I'm not going to get killed by a lucky snake?

There was a post above mine that went missing but expressed concerns I agree with. I can't help but feel that this should have been a "Not broken don't fix" situation.

This is actually a case of quite broken - trying to fix.

The old system was almost entirely a matter of ooc knowledge from one character to the next in the making and use of cures.  The intended manner of experimentation and learning through tastes and colors wasn't working due to some building errors.  The old system only 'made sense' largely through repeated exposure.

The new system is still being discussed, and updated, daily.  Giving up on it at such an early stage because it isn't an extension of the previous, ooc-knowledge-required, system seems...well, what kind of progress would the game ever make if that was the measurement for accepting changes?


-----


With regards to NPC tablet vendors, this is a good example of "just" being a four-lettered word.  The outdoors is a dangerous place - filled with...danger.  While a predictable system is to be striven towards, as is happening with these posts, as part of making it a manageable danger, there's little point in introducing one that makes it a negated danger.

We could "just" as easily give players a command that removes all poisonsto save players the trouble of going to the NPCs in the first place.

Ideally, once we move off of the old brew system, the cure crafting system will produce items intended by the crafter in terms of cure, poison, and within some ranges color.  How these cures are distributed (clan save rooms, pc-to-pc sales, clan vendors, mini-quests like the cleaning solution) and how they are verified is still in progress.

Straight up NPC sales seems to cut a lot of PC involvement out of the loop and shift the game more towards single-player in a multi-player environment.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 02:29:50 PM by nessalin »

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2017, 02:27:42 PM »
Change is scary, but the more I read about where this is going, the more I like it.

I think (and could be wrong) that we are more or less playtesting the change right now.

I'm ok with that because we still have the old brew system to fall back on until that's done.
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Reiloth

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2017, 02:35:15 PM »
Nessalin -- I like the change. But with how binary poisons are (Terradin is Terradin is Terradin, no matter where it comes from), do you think this might lead towards a more fluid imagining of poisons as well?

Hand in hand, I think it could be a very nuanced system. The nuance comes in with treating the symptoms, rather than treating the 'poison' or the 'effect'.

Certain plants, when turned into poison, cause X effect (Sweating and loss of stamina, loss of HP at the beginning but not as it progresses).

Talented Poisoners can combine multiple 'effects' for a toxic cocktail. But, they run the risk of cutting themselves and adding all the effects at once, receiving their toxic cocktail.

Herbalists will become less of Tablet Vendors and more of Symptom Treaters. What ails you, friend?

Certain poisons could cause a combination of skellebaine and light Terradin effects, or possibly Peraine-like paralysis at the beginning or end or throughout.

I think if we adjust or look at poisons in tandems with the cures to them, it might turn out to be very cool!
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2017, 02:41:59 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but if Mash/Cure effect is determined by taste and not by color (or any other keyword), how are we going to quickly dig out cures to ingest while poisoned? Are we going to have to taste through a bunch of different, visually identical items that we can't pull out in any particular order?

This is correct.  The combination of tastes determines the cure/poison.  The combination of colors determines the color of the mash (and by extension the tablet/vial).

How to manage them?  Likely the same way people do in real life.  The label goes on the container, not the medicine.  Different colors bags, boxes, jars, vials.

Vial objects have a liquid in them that is the color of the cure.  The color of the cure does not change the sdesc of the vial itself.

Crafters can use the craft-dying to change the color of vial objects, then craft-brew their cures into those various colored vials.  This is probably the most dependable way to deep them separate.

BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2017, 02:45:26 PM »
This does sound like a pain in the ass. Can I buy just tablets from a NPC and be sure I'm not going to get killed by a lucky snake?

There was a post above mine that went missing but expressed concerns I agree with. I can't help but feel that this should have been a "Not broken don't fix" situation.

This is actually a case of quite broken - trying to fix.

The old system was almost entirely a matter of ooc knowledge from one character to the next in the making and use of cures.  The intended manner of experimentation and learning through tastes and colors wasn't working due to some building errors.  The old system only 'made sense' largely through repeated exposure.

The new system is still being discussed, and updated, daily.  Giving up on it at such an early stage because it isn't an extension of the previous, ooc-knowledge-required, system seems...well, what kind of progress would the game ever make if that was the measurement for accepting changes?

Personally I don't see anything wrong with previous "broken" system. 'Tablets of various colors cure various ailments, and can be brewed following these rules of alchemy.' I've learned this in-character on multiple PCs. It made sense in the game world, and it made sense from a game design perspective. You could teach it and roleplay around it and that was good enough for me.

If you're trying to make the world more dynamic and combat "OOC knowledge," this change is only going to introduce uncertainty right up until everyone has filled in their Recipe spreadsheets again. Even con artist brewers will go away as we'll just keep PKing those PCs until players learn not to play them very much (like pickpockets).

Call it giving up on the change if you want, but this isn't a change I asked for and not one I'm  fond of at the moment. I see over-complication, not immersion. I would rather Staff be running plots than tinkering with the code. As creaky and head-banging-retarded as it is at times, I get a lot more satisfaction from the former than the latter. It's only when the game's stagnant that I start thinking "Man, this code is starting to grate on me."


With regards to NPC tablet vendors, this is a good example of "just" being a four-lettered word.  The outdoors is a dangerous place - filled with...danger.  While a predictable system is to be striven towards, as is happening with these posts, as part of making it a manageable danger, there's little point in introducing one that makes it a negated danger.

We could "just" as easily give players a command that removes all poisonsto save players the trouble of going to the NPCs in the first place.

Ideally, once we move off of the old brew system, the cure crafting system will produce items intended by the crafter in terms of cure, poison, and within some ranges color.  How these cures are distributed (clan save rooms, pc-to-pc sales, clan vendors, mini-quests like the cleaning solution) and how they are verified is still in progress.

Straight up NPC sales seems to cut a lot of PC involvement out of the loop and shift the game more towards single-player in a multi-player environment.

We had a predictable system, as I said. Now we don't, and it's players who are going to be on the hook for "playtesting" it. I know coding takes time, but if it goes sideways on you at least you can roll back and pickup where you left off. Players don't have the same luxury with our PCs. Unless you're going to be resurrecting every dead PC whose pocketful of legitimately acquired cures no longer worked?
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Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2017, 02:46:54 PM »
That makes so much more sense now, Nessalin.

So, you might know Recipe #1 makes a red mash/vial/tablet, but for 'optimum' storage, you might put all your skellebain cures into a green-tinted vial. So even if all the liquids are red, you can separate them that way.

But vials will be the only way to do that?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2017, 02:55:45 PM »
Call it giving up on the change if you want, but this isn't a change I asked for and not one I'm  fond of at the moment. I see over-complication, not immersion. I would rather Staff be running plots than tinkering with the code. As creaky and head-banging-retarded as it is at times, I get a lot more satisfaction from the former than the latter. It's only when the game's stagnant that I start thinking "Man, this code is starting to grate on me."

I am going to state this exactly once:  You do not get to decide how staff spend their time.  Staff are not your bitch.  When you state this or even imply it your entire post becomes something to ignore by myself and likely other staff members.

If your outsize sense of self-entitlement makes this seems like a valid argument to bring up I suggest you invest your time in other games and other communities.

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »
At that rate, Nessalin (I like that I can say your name without being banned, at least for the moment!), was it just you and Nath working on this? I know sometimes these projects end up getting other builders, etc, in them, who may often never see the thank yous.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 03:01:14 PM »
Call it giving up on the change if you want, but this isn't a change I asked for and not one I'm  fond of at the moment. I see over-complication, not immersion. I would rather Staff be running plots than tinkering with the code. As creaky and head-banging-retarded as it is at times, I get a lot more satisfaction from the former than the latter. It's only when the game's stagnant that I start thinking "Man, this code is starting to grate on me."

I am going to state this exactly once:  You do not get to decide how staff spend their time.  Staff are not your bitch.  When you state this or even imply it your entire post becomes something to ignore by myself and likely other staff members.

If your outsize sense of self-entitlement makes this seems like a valid argument to bring up I suggest you invest your time in other games and other communities.

Alrighty then.

Going back to the code, will tablets have a legitimate use anymore going forward? If Mash effectiveness is determined by their taste/smell, I'm assuming this carries forward to Cures being determined by the same. A bunch of visually-identical cures with varying effects who can only be determined by trial and error sound a lot less useful than a color-coded vial holding all of one's BOOP cures.

(I guess I'm assuming you cannot put a tablet in a vial because that sounds... weird, in my head.)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:08:16 PM by BadSkeelz »
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bcw81

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 03:10:08 PM »
Inv
You are carrying:
A leather pouch
A packet of red dye
a purple tablet that does x
a green tablet that also does x

Craft Pouch Dye
You could make...
1) A red leather pouch

put purple pouch
put green pouch

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Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 03:11:52 PM »
I keep forgetting about the dynamic crafting, and colors.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 03:20:23 PM »
Yeah it's easy to forget about when you're wondering about potentially lethal code changes.

Be nice if pouches had less weight, as I might need 4 instead of the old one.
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Akariel

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2017, 03:21:43 PM »
Yeah it's easy to forget about when you're wondering about potentially lethal code changes.

Be nice if pouches had less weight, as I might need 4 instead of the old one.

If you noticed odd things like a two inch pouch of leather weighing 10 stones, bug it. I go through the bugs/typos/ideas every couple of days.

nauta

  • Posts: 2071
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2017, 03:38:23 PM »
Yeah it's easy to forget about when you're wondering about potentially lethal code changes.

Be nice if pouches had less weight, as I might need 4 instead of the old one.

If you noticed odd things like a two inch pouch of leather weighing 10 stones, bug it. I go through the bugs/typos/ideas every couple of days.

It's true.  I'm going to toot Akariel's horn a bit here.  Check this out:

(from the 'updates' page, these are bug requests resolved:)

2016, week 50: Akariel (98)
2016, week 51: Akariel (106)
2016, week 52: Akariel (26)
2017, week 1: Akariel (80)
2017, week 2: Akariel (36)

Kudos to staff for implementing so many changes / fixes -- and changes / fixes based on suggestions / discussions I recognize from the gdb!
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Lizzie

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2017, 04:38:59 PM »
I'm old, and I'm dense. I don't get any of this at all. That's not a complaint, it's just a fact. I'm not comprehending. Here's what I want to know:

I want to make a bloodburn cure.

Previously, it involved combining a couple of red things. which I knew were red because assess -v resulted in a red tint.

Now, it doesn't? Okay - what does it involve now?

I want to TAKE a bloodburn cure.

Previously, it involved swallowing a red tablet.

Now, it doesn't? Okay - what does it involve now?

In Old-Lady Plain English please.
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Feco

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2017, 05:06:49 PM »
Things with certain properties have a certain taste (things that cure bloodburn taste a certain way).

Gotta find them things and mix'em.
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Molten Heart

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2017, 05:31:55 PM »
I'm old, and I'm dense. I don't get any of this at all. That's not a complaint, it's just a fact. I'm not comprehending. Here's what I want to know:

I want to make a bloodburn cure.

Previously, it involved combining a couple of red things. which I knew were red because assess -v resulted in a red tint.

Now, it doesn't? Okay - what does it involve now?

I want to TAKE a bloodburn cure.

Previously, it involved swallowing a red tablet.

Now, it doesn't? Okay - what does it involve now?

In Old-Lady Plain English please.

If I'm understanding this correctly, cure effectiveness is based on taste instead of color of the herbs used, previously color was used. Herbs still have a color associated with them but this color only determines the color of the finished product. The color has no bearing on what a tablet or vial will cure. The color of the new brewed items will no longer indicate their function. All of the old tablets and vials still have their same effect and function. With the new brewed items a person has to be told what each cure does, or has to know the herbs they were brewed from. Hopefully the apothecary is trustworthy and doesn't make all the cures the same color.

The new brew recipes are based on the taste of an herb instead its color tint. Cures for one thing can conceivably be any color.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 06:21:07 PM by Molten Heart »

bardlyone

  • Posts: 725
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2017, 05:38:26 PM »
I wonder if whatever the new metric is for this, it's also going to be visible with 'view' when looking through store inventories.

I get that in the old system you COULD have a cure that's totally different than the color of the tablet made, but in every instance I've ever had brew, tint+tint=predictable cure for X poison. Which meant if you bought 2 red tinted things and mixed them... well, I've never had that NOT cure X poison. So if it's taste, do we see taste with view now, too, or do we have to go through and buy everything and trial and error? And if it's the second, what of the fact that you ought to be able to talk to the proprietor of the shop to find out more about what they're selling and what it cures but can't necessarily? (ie, the nakki herbalist, who will tell you what everything she comes stocked with on reboot supposedly does/cures, but doesn't have scripts built in for things sold to her).
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2017, 05:47:45 PM »
Is it taste, or taste-and/or-smell? Because tasting would theoretically use up some of the material/cure and (at least in old crafting code) render it unusable for further refining. >Sniff at least leaves you with the same amount.

Sniffing would also help with bardlyone's point of getting shopkeepers to be more informative, otherwise we have the sight of folks running around licking all the merchandise.
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Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2017, 06:17:18 PM »
Actually if you use 'taste' on an herb you just do that - taste it, you don't take a bite like you do if tasting food.

This has been the case for a loooooooooooong time.
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nauta

  • Posts: 2071
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2017, 06:29:20 PM »
Actually if you use 'taste' on an herb you just do that - taste it, you don't take a bite like you do if tasting food.

This has been the case for a loooooooooooong time.

This is the case for many herbs/plants, but some I can think of that work for cures are -also- food.  In which case, you both are true.  (Source: I had a character that tasted everything.  Beware!  Not a bright idea.)

The solution is that you'd have to taste it first and then get another one.  I assume the tastes never change.
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BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8072
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2017, 06:36:23 PM »
That's a relief and knocks down that concern, at least.
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lostinspace

  • Posts: 453
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2017, 06:49:38 PM »
These changes are looking pretty cool, separating the effect of the cure from the color. Is there any chance we will be able to
>dye tablet red.dye
So that regardless of the herbs used we can still get the color we want?
It's going to be interesting and fun, that Runner pissing you off, give him a set of cures, but that green pill that's supposed to cure X, that actually just poisons him with Y as well. And the purple Y cure you gave him makes him start shitting his pants. I'm liking this a lot, it will be up to clan leaders or the individuals to choose the colors they want. I'm actually opposed to letting people know what they cure. You want guaranteed cures, buy them from a reputable vendor. Can't remember which of your cures is which. I guess you're just going to eat them like a handful of skittles.

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Bushranger

  • Posts: 1732
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2017, 07:34:05 PM »
Actually if you use 'taste' on an herb you just do that - taste it, you don't take a bite like you do if tasting food.

This has been the case for a loooooooooooong time.

This is the case for many herbs/plants, but some I can think of that work for cures are -also- food.  In which case, you both are true.  (Source: I had a character that tasted everything.  Beware!  Not a bright idea.)

The solution is that you'd have to taste it first and then get another one.  I assume the tastes never change.

Natua it's an incredible idea and you know it! :D

Nessalin, brew has been broken for like a bajillion years and I know there have been several projects started and stopped with it, these revisions sound pretty dang awesome! Cheers for tackling such a huge project that I've always had a fascination for.
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ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2017, 08:55:18 PM »

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?
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Harmless

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2017, 12:23:56 PM »
I like the sound of all these changes, Nessalin. I always thought the old system was "too easy." This is a great change for realism and difficulty. Now if I could just keep a character around who can brew..
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nauta

  • Posts: 2071
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2017, 03:23:38 PM »
Hi,

So here's a question about transitioning and game lore.  There are books (or were) in Dasari that talk about making cures for various poisons, and I tend to have my characters talk about cures not in terms of 'tints' but rather in terms of plants: For instance, bimbal leaves are good for curing the poison from the Booga Monster, because of its sap.  So: Can we assume that this sort of knowledge carries over, e.g., two bimbals will go into making a mash (which will then go into a tablet/vial) that still curs Booga Monster Poison?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2017, 05:30:29 PM »

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?


A question request is fine.

It'd be preferable if you include an example of what cures your character already knows how to brew by way of which items you are able to combine into which cures.   

We can provide you with information on how to use craft to make equivalent cures, but aren't going to give all master brewers information about the new system that extends beyond what their character knew in the old one.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2017, 05:33:19 PM »
Hi,

So here's a question about transitioning and game lore.  There are books (or were) in Dasari that talk about making cures for various poisons, and I tend to have my characters talk about cures not in terms of 'tints' but rather in terms of plants: For instance, bimbal leaves are good for curing the poison from the Booga Monster, because of its sap.  So: Can we assume that this sort of knowledge carries over, e.g., two bimbals will go into making a mash (which will then go into a tablet/vial) that still curs Booga Monster Poison?

Likely we'll want to update those books with modern information.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8072
Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2017, 06:11:13 PM »
I've noticed that the new assess -v functionality shows legacy tablets as being composed of "wood" or "none." I don't know what a newer cure shows up as, but it got me thinking on two points:

1) Should something different be showing up from >assess -v?
2) Does analyzing a tablet/mash/vial (assuming you have brewing) show what went in to it, like with other crafts?
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ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2017, 09:49:31 PM »

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?

How long should we expect to hear back about this?
A question request is fine.

It'd be preferable if you include an example of what cures your character already knows how to brew by way of which items you are able to combine into which cures.   

We can provide you with information on how to use craft to make equivalent cures, but aren't going to give all master brewers information about the new system that extends beyond what their character knew in the old one.
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wear Inix pelvis
You wear a wood-carved inix strap-on on your pelvis.
etwo wood
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kill booty

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2017, 06:31:15 PM »

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?

How long should we expect to hear back about this?
A question request is fine.

It'd be preferable if you include an example of what cures your character already knows how to brew by way of which items you are able to combine into which cures.   

We can provide you with information on how to use craft to make equivalent cures, but aren't going to give all master brewers information about the new system that extends beyond what their character knew in the old one.

These requests should all now be answered.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2017, 11:39:05 AM »
I'm interested in hearing back from players that filed and got a response about the new brew recipes based on their character's knowledge and skills.  Via e-mail or requests, please.