Author Topic: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting  (Read 3441 times)

nessalin

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Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« on: January 20, 2017, 09:04:29 AM »
In order to help with the transition from the brew command to the craft command in the creation of cures and poisons this post will cover issues that came up during development and decisions that had to be made.


What Was Before

The brew command works off of two values found on 'herb' items (leaves, roots, berries), their taste and color (referred to by players as 'tint vision', not to be confused with what appears in the sdesc or keywords).  When providing the brew command with these items checks are made against a matrix of valid recipes.

An accepted combination of tastes apply a given poison or cure to the produced tablet (or vial).  The color of the tablet is selected randomly from the color of the ingredients.  Combining a blue and red herb will produce a blue OR red tablet.  Combining a blue, red, yellow herb will produce a blue, red, OR yellow tablet.

In this way the color of the tablet has only a loose association with what the tablet does.

As a result of confusion on our part items built over the years, having not had this knowledge available, some saved versions of tablets have cures and poisons on them.  This means that when some colors of tablet are produced they will have a cure-poison on them even if the tastes of the provided herbs were not a valid recipe.  This falsely gives the impression that color is directed tied to purpose.

And, so, some of the standard recipes used by players are, in fact, bugs.  Bugs that aren't present in the new system, meaning some cures and poisons will need further investigation when creating items from the brew command goes away.


What Is Now

The craft system is similar to brew in that the color and taste of herbs are taken into account.  The first major difference is that colors are combined, where possible, rather than chosen from randomly.  Combining a blue and red herb will produce a purple product - not a blue OR red product.  When combining herb colors that don't mix well 'gray' is produced, instead.

The produced item from crafting cures no longer have values saved on them - which means only the valid recipes from the legacy system are maintained.  The recipes being based entirely on combining the correct tastes.  This is the second major difference and probably most notable because it will impact which cures players were able to make under the old system but not the new one.  Please keep in mind that cures and poisons are still craftable but will require some experimentation to find the right combinations rather than being the result of bugs.

The final major change is that crafting herbs does not directly produce a vial or a tablet.  Instead a 'mash' item is produced (or a globule, lump, powder, etc...) of the correct color.  This item can either be consumed (with the eat command) directly to get the benefit from the cure or further crafted.  Crafting it into a tablet can be done without more ingredients.  If a vial is included then a vial with a cure is produced.

A change in this code related to vials is that they no longer disappear when they are used.  Drink, pour, or use the vial and you will be left with an empty vial.  This empty vial can be used to hold more cures.  This system also allows any valid vial object to be used rather than one vial that must be used universally.  Different regions and clans will have (hopefully) their own vials allowing characters to come up with their own system for which vial has which cure in it.

Likewise the color/taste system, now fixed in the new system, will allow characters to pick which 'acidic' herb they want to use in a recipe based on its color so that they can control the outcome.  Yellow may have cultural references for one character that makes it obvious it is a cure for bloodburn, while another culture may view Yellow as the intuitive color for a poison, not a cure.

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »
So in the old system, it was possible for two differently-colored cures to have the same curative effects? I can see where that would be confusing for staff and player alike.

However, with this new system, I assume that color WILL STILL have some bearing? Like, someone won't just give you a yellow 'mash', and MAYBE it cures bloodburn, but maybe it causes hallucinations?

Likewise the color/taste system, now fixed in the new system, will allow characters to pick which 'acidic' herb they want to use in a recipe based on its color so that they can control the outcome.  Yellow may have cultural references for one character that makes it obvious it is a cure for bloodburn, while another culture may view Yellow as the intuitive color for a poison, not a cure.

That's the part I'm referring to. I'm assuming, then, because there are multiple "yellow" items, that if you're trying to make a 'green' tablet, you can use any color of 'blue' and 'yellow' tint... but the last part makes it sound like cultural beliefs may preclude ever making a 'green' cure.
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Schrodingers Cat

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 10:02:48 AM »
What is the syntax to craft a brewed vial? I can't seem to figure it out.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 10:07:47 AM »
What is the syntax to craft a brewed vial? I can't seem to figure it out.

craft <mash item> <vial item> into #N

For these recipes you'll have to craft by recipe number, making sure to include the # symbol.

ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 10:47:53 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures? Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 10:56:15 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 10:57:45 AM »
This is going to make it really difficult (for better or worse) for people to sell cures/tablets to other PCs.

The ideal is that it'll open some flexibility to RP for potential cons, but the reality is nobody will trust you unless they can make them themselves or they have their best buddy make them for them.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 10:59:56 AM »
This is going to make it really difficult (for better or worse) for people to sell cures/tablets to other PCs.

The ideal is that it'll open some flexibility to RP for potential cons, but the reality is nobody will trust you unless they can make them themselves or they have their best buddy make them for them.

Excellent.

ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I think being able to assess it and have a certain attribute associated with certain cures would be great. I feel that otherwise, people may not trust cures at all anymore. I suppose this also means that there will be a lot of herbs that will become absolutely useless.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 11:06:00 AM »
So only certain herbs will now actually be usable for cures?

Correct - but this is how it worked in the past for some recipes, just not all of them so it was a bit confusing (for staff, too).


Is there any way to tell cures apart? What if you have several red tablets, but only one works?

Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I think being able to assess it and have a certain attribute associated with certain cures would be great. I feel that otherwise, people may not trust cures at all anymore. I suppose this also means that there will be a lot of herbs that will become absolutely useless.

Every herb taste is currently usable in at least one recipe.

Meaning that there is no such thing as an useless herb.

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 11:06:45 AM »
sniff tablet
This has a mild smell of hot spices.

sniff vial
The contents smell of hot garbage.

sniff globule
This thing smells sickly sweet.


I feel like it would require far too many sniff messages, attached to too many objects. But I like the idea of "NO NOT THAT RED ONE, THAT ONE SMELLS LIKE KHEE!"
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Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 11:12:37 AM »
I mean, if you get poisoned, it's going to be a much bigger deal as you frantically sort through tablets to figure out which red tablet is the one you want, when realistically you should be able to have them separated out but code-wise all red tablets look the exact same. That's my hesitation - making sure that any difficulties are IC not syntax.
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nauta

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 11:16:10 AM »
Currently you'll have to keep track of what you made, but I'm open to suggestions.  Others have suggested the assess command or the taste command as a way for brewers to tell them apart by sniffing, licking, and maybe inspecting their hue and texture.

I like the idea of eliminating the 'tint vision'.  Why?  Mainly, I was never sure (until the top post  by Nesselin in fact) if the 'tint' that you get from 'assess' was an IG phenomenon or an OOC construct.  Since it appears to be an IG phenomenon, I wasn't sure how to RP it, since very different colored and looking herbs sometimes had the same tint.  Was it something in the whorl of the flower, or in the stem or roots that we were seeing?  Or was it actually a kind of magickal-ish sixth sense that Zalanthans have?

What would we replace it with?

a) Nothing.  You'd just have to learn which herb produces what kind of cure mash and use the names of the herbs.  Well, my child, from my experience as the herbalist here, you'd want to use Sandspider, Makras, Runebane, or Bakri Cones to make a cure to the Angk's bite.  (Note: Example is made up.)

b) The 'sniff' command or 'taste' command would echo out a single keyword common to a group.  So for red tints, perhaps these are all 'bitter' in some way, and blue tints are all 'sour' in some way.  This also would allow you to keep the unique smells, some Runebane would smell: This smells like old gortok ass, with a bitter hint to it.  And Makras would smell: This smells like carnal conquest, with a hint of sour to it.  (Or something.)


as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Ender

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 11:27:35 AM »
So I'm trying to wrap my head around these changes, and I'm clearly failing.

Old system:

I know what colors do what

red = cures boop
yellow = cures foop

brew tablet red red

I now have a red tablet that I know cures boop

brew tablet yellow yellow

I now have a yellow tablet that I know cures foop


New system:

craft yellow into #1

I now have a yellow lump that maybe cures foop depending on the taste of the yellow herb?
craft lump into tablet

I now have a red tablet I have no idea what cures anything if I mix it with other red tablets? Why would I ever brew a tablet?




Also, how does culture work into anything?  If I'm from a different culture I view different cures?  Different cures affect me differently, like my metabolism is somehow culturally different?  I'm really really confused by what that means.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:30:06 AM by Ender »
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2017, 11:31:13 AM »
sniff tablet
This has a mild smell of hot spices.

sniff vial
The contents smell of hot garbage.

sniff globule
This thing smells sickly sweet.


I feel like it would require far too many sniff messages, attached to too many objects. But I like the idea of "NO NOT THAT RED ONE, THAT ONE SMELLS LIKE KHEE!"

Sniff messages are not all per item instance values.  Many are derived from other values already on the item, which is likely how this would work.

It could also be a combination of sniff and taste, I suppose.  a^2 + b^2 == skellebain

Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 11:31:58 AM »
Related to Ender's questioning:

If your yellow lump cures FOOP, and your red lump cures BOOP, when you mix them into a tablet it should make an orange tablet that cures both FOOP and BOOP. But that seems like a slippery slope, leading to a rainbow-colored cure-all.
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ChibiTama

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 11:55:32 AM »
If we happen to find herbs that do not have a taste and/or smell associated with them, can we submit them as a game bug to be added?
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2017, 11:57:50 AM »
If we happen to find herbs that do not have a taste and/or smell associated with them, can we submit them as a game bug to be added?

Yes.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 12:09:54 PM »
Related to Ender's questioning:

If your yellow lump cures FOOP, and your red lump cures BOOP, when you mix them into a tablet it should make an orange tablet that cures both FOOP and BOOP. But that seems like a slippery slope, leading to a rainbow-colored cure-all.

I think it's reasonable to have up to two effects in one tablet. More than that could get too complicated for a game.

When I take benadryl it makes me sleepy AND makes me sniffle less. So...
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2017, 12:21:07 PM »
Old system:

I know what colors do what

red = cures boop
yellow = cures foop

brew tablet red red

I now have a red tablet that I know cures boop

brew tablet yellow yellow

I now have a yellow tablet that I know cures foop


While this is the perception it is not the reality.  Partly due to flaws in building, partly due to lack of experimentation.  It is quite possible to brew a red tablet that cures something other than the generally accepted and predicted cure/poison.  The same can be said of yellow.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 12:23:47 PM »
New system:

craft yellow into #1

I now have a yellow lump that maybe cures foop depending on the taste of the yellow herb?
craft lump into tablet

I now have a red tablet I have no idea what cures anything if I mix it with other red tablets? Why would I ever brew a tablet?

As stated, perhaps inelegantly, the issue of crafting a lump of one color into a tablet of another color (specifically red) was a building error on my part that was addressed in game.  While some lingering objects might be floating around in player inventories, they should work themselves out of the system soon enough.

The color of a mash always predicts the color of the tablet and the color of the liquid in a vial.

nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
Also, how does culture work into anything?  If I'm from a different culture I view different cures?  Different cures affect me differently, like my metabolism is somehow culturally different?  I'm really really confused by what that means.

This wasn't mean to mean physiology.   Rather that crafters now having the intended ability to control (within limits) the color of their mash/vial/tablet items, they can make those decisions based on their culture.

Provided two working recipes for the same cure, one that is pink and another that is yellow, a character may choose to always go with yellow for cultural reasons, while another character may decide always to go with pink .

More explicitly...
yellow-herb + blue-herb = green mash that cures poison1
red-herb + white-herb = pink mash that also cures poison1

When presented with these options a given character may decide to go with green because their cultural documentation associates it with purity and wellness.

Another character may decide to go with pink because green, in their culture, is to be avoided due to a local snake everyone fears.  Or perhaps pink is viewed as the obvious choice because of the saying, "In the pink of health."

Or, hell, maybe they make the choice to help them manage their inventory.

Delirium

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 12:53:20 PM »
I like the idea of this - however I do still have one question.

If we can't go by color any longer, how do we know what cures what?

Especially PCs who have long-since mastered brewing and have been mixing IC lore with OOC constraints for quite a while and will need to retcon some of their knowledge? If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.
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Riev

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 12:59:45 PM »
If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.

Or, more to the issue at hand, why those hundred bloodburn cures suddenly look like those six terradin cures.
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nessalin

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Re: Coder Transparency - Cure/Poison Crafting
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 01:04:09 PM »
If someone's made a hundred bloodburn cures it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unable to figure out, through coded means, how to make another.

Or, more to the issue at hand, why those hundred bloodburn cures suddenly look like those six terradin cures.

Existing cures in the game will continue to work.  Any cures you've got on your character or in a save room will continue working.