The Rights of Man - Allanak Edition

[Miradus]

I understand there's a large slave population in the city.

What keeps Borsail or any other nobility from just arbitrarily pointing at any individual free man and clapping the chains on him? Are there any sort of established legal rights or is it more of a "how well known and popular is this guy and will enslaving him make trouble" sort of balance?

Are there any sorts of trials or legal system in place for commoners? I know the city has a "senate" from the helpfiles, but it's a puppet show. If the Highlord points at you and says "slave" then you're clearly a slave, but how far down the chain does that power extend?

[Bushranger]

The simple answer is no. There are no Rights. The legal system is quite simple, the matter is brought before a Templar who pronounces and executes the sentence as they are the representatives of Highlord Tektolnes and so what they decree is law. Simple as that.

Rights, the legal system and trials are quite modern notions with regards to commoners.

Now as a citizen of Allanak you are viewed as somewhat more civilized than others so the Templars may look slightly more favourably to you than to someone who is not a citizen. This favour can also be enhanced with suitable and completely legal bribes (though do be more creative with their names).

Edit: As for Borsail enslaving you, they have been given the charter of enslaving those outside of the Highlord's citizenship. To enslave a citizen requires the order of a Templar, indeed one of the many sentences a Templar may execute is stripping a citizen of their citizenship and enslaving them either directly into the army, the obsidian mines or giving the newly enslaved to Borsail or Kasix for training.

[Riev]

I genuinely believe that the right to enslave the public is only granted to the Templarate. Even a famed House like Borsail cannot just choose someone and decide they are a slave, nor WOULD they. Their fame isn't in breaking men, its breeding muls and enslaving the young to bring up good and proper slaves. A slave isn't a prisoner, a slave is someone who owes their entire being, their living, everything they are, to the person/people in which they serve.

Borsail wouldn't point at a decent Bynner and say "You're ours, now" because it wouldn't be worth their time when they can train a dozen from birth to be better and more loyal.

People by and large don't really HAVE rights, but the Nobility both can not and likely would not exercise such extreme acts. Nobles are better than commoners by birth, but the Templarate is His Will. Nobles just enjoy the benefits of sharing lineage with those who exercise that Will.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Miradus]

Borsail was just an example. I'm just curious about the hierarchy of power. If 1.guy is stronger than 2.guy, does he refrain from abusing his power because 3.guy might then abuse the power over him?

So on the non-citizen thing ... why would any non-citizen go into Allanak and stir up trouble that might get them attention they don't want? If you're a citizen of Red Storm and you get in a brawl in the street, you might end up dead in the jail, the arena, or working the rest of your life in the obsidian mines.

Also, since a rinthi is a citizen of Allanak ... does the hierarchy go Highlord > Templar > noble > rich guy > citizen > rinthi > outsider?

[Reiloth]

From what I understand too, 'citizenship' in Allanak is quite vague. There aren't six-pointed stars or fancy purple bands on your neck to show you are a citizen. If you have a southern accent, you can claim you are a citizen. A Templar or a Noble can just as easily call you rebel scum, and do their worst to you. This, to me, is the heart of why the power structure in Allanak is so corrupt and scary.

Saying they 'can't do this' just isn't true. They can, and refrain most of the time, mostly because it's a pain in the ass to explain it. But given just cause, they can and will make your life hell before you die. There is no legal recourse for a Commoner, they're basically cattle. We have to keep in mind that the 'laws of Allanak' pretty much don't apply to Nobles. That being said, a troublesome Noble who goes around enslaving people or tossing their weight around as if they were hot shit, probably won't live long either. There are appearances to maintain.

As to the 1.guy 2.guy 3.guy question -- Of course, that comes into consideration. If 1.guy is stronger than 2.guy, but not than 3.guy, 1.guy has to consider who 2.guy's allies are, if they have people in high places, if they've paid protection to certain people, if they're basically together or alone. If they're alone...You can bet their ass they'll abuse their power over them if they want to or have reason to. If together with other organizations...They might refrain, because it's more trouble than it's worth.

[BadSkeelz]

I understand there's a large slave population in the city.

What keeps Borsail or any other nobility from just arbitrarily pointing at any individual free man and clapping the chains on him? Are there any sort of established legal rights or is it more of a "how well known and popular is this guy and will enslaving him make trouble" sort of balance?

Are there any sorts of trials or legal system in place for commoners? I know the city has a "senate" from the helpfiles, but it's a puppet show. If the Highlord points at you and says "slave" then you're clearly a slave, but how far down the chain does that power extend?

From what I've gathered (as a soldier and a citizen) the only thing that prevents an "Abuse of authority" (which itself is something of an anachronistic term in Zalathans) is the fear of provoking a violent backlash. The Templarate values order, if only as a means to ensuring their continued control. Actions that risk upsetting the order, like overly public or commonplace violations of commoners by the nobility, are frowned upon.

[Bushranger]

So on the non-citizen thing ... why would any non-citizen go into Allanak and stir up trouble that might get them attention they don't want? If you're a citizen of Red Storm and you get in a brawl in the street, you might end up dead in the jail, the arena, or working the rest of your life in the obsidian mines.

This is correct.

Allanak is also the centre of civilization and has the best trade in the known so if you want the finer things in life then Allanak is the place to go. Just don't be a dick (and get caught without a handy-dandy bribe)

[BadSkeelz]

So on the non-citizen thing ... why would any non-citizen go into Allanak and stir up trouble that might get them attention they don't want? If you're a citizen of Red Storm and you get in a brawl in the street, you might end up dead in the jail, the arena, or working the rest of your life in the obsidian mines.

As Bushranger said, Allanak is the center of of commerce in the Known. There's a lot of money to be made in Allanak, enough to run the risk of (theoretically) dangerous streets and a Templarate that can vaporize you on a whim. Most NPC visitors do not go to Allanak to brawl or start shit, they're going to do business. They keep their heads down, take their money, and leave.

Only PCs, who are routinely a notch or two stupider than NPCs, will go to Allanak to start shit or mouth off about their "Rights" or talk back to a Templar or commit some other elaborate form of suicide.

[Nyr]

What keeps Borsail or any other nobility from just arbitrarily pointing at any individual free man and clapping the chains on him?

For PCs, if memory serves, documentation typically does -- they have their own.  There may be some public-facing stuff as well that indicates what can and can't be done.  Templars do the actual "enslaving" of free persons; nobles do not.  Borsail is renowned for its bred slave stock and not necessarily its ability to capture slaves.

Are there any sort of established legal rights or is it more of a "how well known and popular is this guy and will enslaving him make trouble" sort of balance?

At least as far as I recall, rarely if ever was this done in either city-state by a noble PC -- usually when it was, there was some kind of pushback from the templarate.  Anyone high enough up to not get in trouble for it would have been animated anyway.

Are there any sorts of trials or legal system in place for commoners? I know the city has a "senate" from the helpfiles, but it's a puppet show.

No legal system for commoners apart from one rule.  Might = right.  The more resources/power one has, the more likely they have an organization backing them.  The more powerful that organization and the higher one's rank in that organization, the better their chances are for things going their way.

If the Highlord points at you and says "slave" then you're clearly a slave, but how far down the chain does that power extend?

If memory serves, it's all the way down to templars.  However, as far as PCs are concerned, you can usually rest assured that this doesn't happen.  Things may have changed on this front, but iirc, slave roles are sponsored or by exception only.

I'm just curious about the hierarchy of power. If 1.guy is stronger than 2.guy, does he refrain from abusing his power because 3.guy might then abuse the power over him?

Depends on the ranks at which it occurs.  Nobles expect that templars give them deference because of their station (in terms of being immune from most if not all laws).  Templars expect the same in response from nobles, BUT they also have the force of arms and the law on their side.  There was a whole hierarchical chart for Tuluk and there's something sorta similar for Allanak but less rigid.

So on the non-citizen thing ... why would any non-citizen go into Allanak and stir up trouble that might get them attention they don't want?

You probably wouldn't go specifically to stir up trouble unless you had an exit plan (or had no exit plan).

Also, since a rinthi is a citizen of Allanak ... does the hierarchy go Highlord > Templar > noble > rich guy > citizen > rinthi > outsider?

Citizenship is iffy.  Tuluk had tattoos to say who was and wasn't a citizen.  Allanak doesn't have that.  Noble birth matters.  Organizational backing matters.  Outsiders out of their element in Allanak proper might be the same as rinthis out of their element in Allanak proper...depends on the circumstances!

[Armaddict]

Borsail is renowned for its bred slave stock and not necessarily its ability to capture slaves.

Kinda.  When it changed to Amber Wyverns instead of Crimson Wyverns, or at least the PC portion did, it was with heavy emphasis on being the premiere slavers of the Known, for a time.  But yes, it's the templars who do the actual enslaving unless it's through invasion of a foreign entity.

Quote
I'm just curious about the hierarchy of power. If 1.guy is stronger than 2.guy, does he refrain from abusing his power because 3.guy might then abuse the power over him?

Depends on the ranks at which it occurs.  Nobles expect that templars give them deference because of their station (in terms of being immune from most if not all laws).  Templars expect the same in response from nobles, BUT they also have the force of arms and the law on their side.  There was a whole hierarchical chart for Tuluk and there's something sorta similar for Allanak but less rigid.

It's...a whole lot more complicated than that.  It's not just an expected deference, it's actually a real, true need.  Templars -do- need the nobles, as per documentation.  Nobles are the extension of a hand between a totalitarian, scary, and cruel regime and the populace that is kept under control and giving the power to the city.  Tektolnes doesn't need the populace, but the nobles and templars do.  So questions like this get a lot more complicated as you rise up that power structure.  There's a reason Senior Nobles and Regents of houses are positioned far higher than a blue robe templar; It's not because that noble makes the templar quake in their boots, it's because they know if they pissed off that noble, they just -fucked up- and made a bunch of things go poorly for the city unless they fix it.  In a sense, it's a reversal of fortune.  It puts a templar on their knees for a time out of the necessity to make amends for their own career's sake.

One of the major 'downturns' in the political roleplay of Allanak for a time was when templars started walking all over nobles and pretending they had no power.  There's an intricate weaving between the two that is specifically stated as them mutually needing each other, but in practice, that depends entirely on templars playing it out correctly (Senior Nobles no longer show up out of the blue to point at a templar and ask what the fuck they think they're doing to their younger noble cousin.  Man that was fun when that happened.)

Edit:  I had called the nobility the hand of friendship between the templarate and commoners.  And it made me laugh on rereading it.

[Reiloth]

Nyr just Nyr'd this thread so hard. WB, Nyr!

[Jingo]

I think the game would be more interesting and not necessarily less brutal if there were rules or norms for how the upper classes could exploit the commons.

[Miradus]

I think the game would be more interesting and not necessarily less brutal if there were rules or norms for how the upper classes could exploit the commons.

I don't know if it has to be carved in stone like Hammurabi's Code but if it were a little more laid out then it would be easier to make plots and stuff up. Some of you 20 year vets can throw this stuff out like it's last night's Walking Dead episode but I've only been playing a year and have only rarely set foot in Allanak.

[Reiloth]

One might argue you would gain more insight as to how these things work if you set -two- foots in Allanak.

[Miradus]

One might argue you would gain more insight as to how these things work if you set -two- foots in Allanak.

Yes.

[Ath]

As for who enslaves, it is Templars that make it "Official", as they are the ones that hold the official collars that are used.  Just confirming what Nyr said.  Pretty much across the board, spot on.  Thanks, Nyr!

[Reiloth]

As for who enslaves, it is Templars that make it "Official", as they are the ones that hold the official collars that are used.  Just confirming what Nyr said.  Pretty much across the board, spot on.  Thanks, Nyr!

You mean for the Arm of the Dragon slaves, right? Because Borsail has their own collars, and they presumably go out and slave without showing each slave to a Templar for approval.

[Akaramu]

You mean for the Arm of the Dragon slaves, right? Because Borsail has their own collars, and they presumably go out and slave without showing each slave to a Templar for approval.

I thought Borsail didn't do this anymore, and that it's now breeding only?

[Cayuga]

Slavery isn't such a poor lot in life, as we would expect from western ideals. Being a slave in Zalanthas means you're fed, clothed, and have a pallet to sleep on, which is a lot more than many free-people can say. Borsail is choosy about their slave trade, the Templarate can offer slavery to worthy lawbreakers, but it would be just another mouth for the Highlord to feed.

[Bushranger]

As for who enslaves, it is Templars that make it "Official", as they are the ones that hold the official collars that are used.  Just confirming what Nyr said.  Pretty much across the board, spot on.  Thanks, Nyr!

You mean for the Arm of the Dragon slaves, right? Because Borsail has their own collars, and they presumably go out and slave without showing each slave to a Templar for approval.

As I understand it Borsail can only go out and slave non-citizens when they receive sanctions from the Templars for a slaving expedition, they can't walk down the street and enslave people. Templars can enslave anyone anytime they like. They might whack an AoD collar on the new slaves or they might send them to Borsail or Kasix for training where they will wear those collars.

[Reiloth]

As for who enslaves, it is Templars that make it "Official", as they are the ones that hold the official collars that are used.  Just confirming what Nyr said.  Pretty much across the board, spot on.  Thanks, Nyr!

You mean for the Arm of the Dragon slaves, right? Because Borsail has their own collars, and they presumably go out and slave without showing each slave to a Templar for approval.

As I understand it Borsail can only go out and slave non-citizens when they receive sanctions from the Templars for a slaving expedition, they can't walk down the street and enslave people. Templars can enslave anyone anytime they like. They might whack an AoD collar on the new slaves or they might send them to Borsail or Kasix for training where they will wear those collars.

At first glance, this seems to be out of whack with Borsail documentation, or perhaps a new shift/change. It's implied that Amber Wyverns regularly go out without Templar sanction to slave non-citizens.

Agreed that they don't just walk down the street and enslave people, that's not what I meant. I meant more that when they 'properly slave' out in the wilds, they don't bring back their stash and show a Templar and ask them if they can make these people slaves. Borsail has collars of their own, they slap them on their stock. Winrothol was more known for 'breeding' slaves, while Borsail was always (as far as I know) known for Slaving Slaves.

[Bushranger]

Borsail is also known for their superior breeding programs, especially for Muls, and for training the best gladiator slaves in the Known. I'd wager on a Borsail trained Mul over a Winrothol Mul in an arena match any day of the week and twice on Waleuk!

What I meant Reiloth was that Borsail hold the royal commission for these slaving expeditions that the Amber Wyverns engage in. Just as Jal holds the commission for city maintenance and water distribution even though water rights are technically the province of the Highlord and thus controlled by the Templars - they've just delegated that task to the nobility.

[Armaddict]

I think, Reiloth, that there's a virtual 'registry' that happens on the Amber Wyvern's return, and the templarate really gives no fucks about them enslaving little villages and even encourages it.  But it's still them making the slavery 'official'.

I do know that the templarate being required for slavery is in line with how it was for PC slaves before, and that every experience I've had with slaving has had Arm involvement, even if it was my Borsail soldier's direct actions.

[Ath]

As for who enslaves, it is Templars that make it "Official", as they are the ones that hold the official collars that are used.  Just confirming what Nyr said.  Pretty much across the board, spot on.  Thanks, Nyr!

You mean for the Arm of the Dragon slaves, right? Because Borsail has their own collars, and they presumably go out and slave without showing each slave to a Templar for approval.

This was answered already by Nyr, but now I have to go into detail.  No one except Templars can walk around Allanak and enslave someone off the streets, as per what the original question entailed.  What is done out on the sands and dragged into Allanak, say Borsail says "This is my slave" the Templars are likely going to nod and not think much of it, but at the same point, the Templars are there to uphold the law.  If Borsail goes out and enslaves Master Agent Kadius on the sands... well, it's very likely a Templar is going to step in.  Situations happen, just like in real life, that don't always have exacting details and specifications to be followed.  Even more so in the world of Zalanthas.

TLDR; Templar can, by law and their empowerment, enslave within Allanak, as it has always been.

[650Booger]

I'm not sure the intent of the OP was to get into slavery, but since that's where the conversation seems to be...

given that you are not allowed to play a PC slave, if you were to be suddenly enslaved by a templar, would you be asked to store that PC?

also, should Borsail consider every Mul character an escaped slave?

[BadSkeelz]

I'm not sure the intent of the OP was to get into slavery, but since that's where the conversation seems to be...

given that you are not allowed to play a PC slave, if you were to be suddenly enslaved by a templar, would you be asked to store that PC?

also, should Borsail consider every Mul character an escaped slave?

Being enslaved generally resorts in force-storage.

Every mul is an escaped slave, the question just being from where. I believe it's been written that recapture is generally not attempted as an escaped mul is too mentally "broken" to be worth the trouble. Putting them down is standard procedure.

[Ath]

I'm not sure the intent of the OP was to get into slavery, but since that's where the conversation seems to be...

given that you are not allowed to play a PC slave, if you were to be suddenly enslaved by a templar, would you be asked to store that PC?

also, should Borsail consider every Mul character an escaped slave?

We do try to look at everything on a case by case basis, but generally yes, you would be force stored if your character was enslaved.  That's one of the main reasons why it doesn't typically happen.  Now if you are playing an escaped slave PC (which anyone can do, Muls just get it automatically) if your character is captured, you will very likely be forced stored also.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Slavery

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Slavery%20in%20Allanak

And the blurb here on escaped slaves still applies, you can even put in a Role Request prior if you wish:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50273.msg917386.html#msg917386

[Centurion]

Borsail is also known for their superior breeding programs, especially for Muls, and for training the best gladiator slaves in the Known. I'd wager on a Borsail trained Mul over a Winrothol Mul in an arena match any day of the week and twice on Waleuk!

You take that back! My Winrothol slaves were the finest gladiators in the Known and would accept any challenge from those barbaric Borsail heathen scum and send their asses flying from the platforms!