on villains, monster roles, and all things antagonist

[650Booger]

Hey guys, I hope you don't mind, but I was enjoying the derail of the combat roles thread started by Ath, where we started talking about antagonists, gith, and the gameplay experience of said.

Maybe we can brainstorm some ideas on how to make these roles last longer and be more fun.

About the Gith role.  It seems like there are several problem areas that arose when this was tried.
1. It was purely a PK role, with little or no RP with non-gith
2. It was hard to find other Gith to play/RP with
3. regular PCs hunted the Gith mercilessly, more than they would normal NPC gith.

so how can these be addressed?  some ideas.
1. Give Gith sirihish.  especially if they can be permanently stuck in the "just learning" phase of the language where half the words are garbled.
2. Give Gith PCs one or more guard NPCs that they can solo RP with using the order command, and also that they can bring into fights, to make them a bit burlier.  Also, applicants for this role should be ready for alot of solo RP, and know that going into it.  some people enjoy this.
3. I think if we open Gith up to karma, and start seeing a regular stream of Gith PCs, that the likelihood that every regular PC will automatically witch-hunt gith PCs to extinction will ease off, and we'll achieve a steady-state of tension rather than a flash war like we did with the last Gith rolecall.

Now lets talk about Antagonists characters in general.  Somebody said that as soon as they decide to go the antagonist route they are gibbed within 2 RL days.  How can this be avoided?  Don't reveal yourself as an antagonist.  think Tony Soprano villain, rather than Freddy Krueger villain, and you might live alot longer.

other ideas or thoughts are welcome!  I'll stop now.

[BadSkeelz]

The problem with making the gith a viable PC 'antagonist role' (which is itself a flawed notion) is that it would require changing their character to the point where they'd stop being gith. Gith docs are great, but they make no bones that these things are straight up fucking evil without a single redeeming feature. Decent NPC antagonists, but rather lacking in nuance.

PVP Conflict isn't fun when it begins and ends with ">kill dude." And that's all gith PVP will ever be.

I would caution anybody against creating a PC with the goal of being an "Antagonist." Not only are you simply going to get piked by the first powerful set of jimmies you rustle, you're running the risk of creating a flat character... like a gith.

Fun player-conflict comes from two things: PCs having mutually-conflicting goals, and players having the restraint to not immediately escalate to the nuclear "kill all competition" option. Look for other ways to fuck with each other.

[650Booger]

these things are straight up fucking evil without a single redeeming feature.

I think its perfectly possibly to play a purely evil, malicious PC that has a very interesting personality and social interactions beyond:

">kill dude." And that's all gith PVP will ever be.

It will just require the desire and intention by the player to make it that way.  I have not tried the Gith role, so I am being hypothetical, but I can think of lots of things I would like to try beyond >kill dude

I would caution anybody against creating a PC with the goal of being an "Antagonist." Not only are you simply going to get piked by the first powerful set of jimmies you rustle, you're running the risk of creating a flat character... like a gith.

I don't agree, as I'm sure is becoming obvious.  it's perfectly possible to go into a role planning purely to fuck with people and disrupt the status quo. 

Fun player-conflict comes from two things: PCs having mutually-conflicting goals, and players having the restraint to not immediately escalate to the nuclear "kill all competition" option. Look for other ways to fuck with each other.

here we agree, although I would contend that mutually-conflicting goals can be easily applied to Gith PCs vs Normal PCs.

[manipura]

these things are straight up fucking evil without a single redeeming feature.

I think its perfectly possibly to play a purely evil, malicious PC that has a very interesting personality and social interactions beyond:

">kill dude." And that's all gith PVP will ever be.

It will just require the desire and intention by the player to make it that way.  I have not tried the Gith role, so I am being hypothetical, but I can think of lots of things I would like to try beyond >kill dude

I may be wrong here, but I think BadSkeelz is meaning that players will go right to 'kill dude' when confronted by a gith, because there is no reason not to, not that gith will resort right to 'kill dude'.  What motivation is there for a PC to try meaningfully interacting with a non-human, straight up evil creature with no redeeming qualities?

[BadSkeelz]

It worked both ways in practice. While I think the language barrier had something to do with it, gith war RP was just not very deep on either side. As a gith, you're not supposed to do anything but >kill, or >sap if you want to try and take someone alive for torture (And no other reason). And it's harder than you think to take someone alive.

[BadSkeelz]

Really it was no better than the "War" roleplay which eventually devolved in to two half-giants sitting outside of Tuluk ganking any northern PC they saw. Nevermind the unit NPCs camped out not 2 rooms away who would not react.

Gith have no nuance to their character other than physical conflict, which is the lowest form of interaction among PCs.

[650Booger]

are there other docs besides the Gith helpfile where I can learn more about their culture?  because having only read that, I don't even see where it says they are pure evil hellbent only on death and destruction. 

and I can think of plenty of scenarios where a regular PC might encounter a gith and not automatically type >kill, but it would require some creativity and a bit of a culture-shift with how Gith are perceived.

what if there was a resource that was only available deep in the heart of gith-held territory.  a gith approaches you, speaking barely comprehensible sirihish, and holding a smelly bag full of this resource, asking to trade for some fine city-made arrows.  you're not sure you can trust him.  he could easily betray you when you bring the arrows for delivery.  he smells really bad.  he has a necklace made from human teeth.  but you -want- that resource.  do you type >kill, or do you try and negotiate?  you have options now, see?

[BadSkeelz]

The gith had quite a few docs written for them that the players received. Staff would have to make the call on whether to release them.

"Trade" is not really in their lexicon.

[650Booger]

"Trade" is not really in their lexicon.

yeah I guess I would need to see the docs to understand why this is true...

*edited to add*
even if every single regular PC/Gith PC encounter does result immediately in non-roleplayed combat, is that bad?  it seems like when a PC gets to a certain skill level, NPC gith are no longer a threat, to the point where a single character can stack up a pile of gith NPC bodies.  once the NPC AI is figured out, it becomes easy to defeat, whereas a human opponent is unpredictable.

I'm going to let other people respond for awhile.

[Reiloth]

The problem with Gith is if you turn them into a sentient race that can talk, then they can trade. If they can trade, then they can be reasoned with. Then they become yet another 'Ally in the Federation'. It's akin to the Romulans vs Borg vs the whatevers (blanking on Star Trek Names) but I think that's even in the Gith Docs. Races of people that start as 'Pure Antagonist' and they are humanized, and then another Pure Antagonist has to replace them.

I say leave Gith how they are, app in a few now and then, and don't make it too complicated.

[Delirium]

Cardassians. Dominion. Klingons!

Everyone wants to be Garak bc he gets to hang with the cool kids and has built in conflict regardless. If you're Gul Dukat you just show up now and then to be snarky and badass but you never even get to make out with Kira.

I had a point with this...

[ghanima]

Gith to me are not the best adversary. Human to human conflict allows far more depth, including the option to play among them as a turncoat or a spy. If Tuluk cannot be reopened at this time, I'd suggest that any alternative antagonist should be something which allows players to infiltrate. You're not going to infiltrate a gith encampment by pretending to be one of them to learn their secrets, you're just going to either fight them or simply not interact at all.

[John]

If player and/or staff sentiment is that gith should remain evil bad guys who could never ever unite with anyone to overcome a threat to their safety, then opening gith to the players isn't a good idea. I'd personally think broadening up the role of gith would be more desirable, but cest la vie.

You could always open up another d-elf tribe that's based in the Tablelands. Although to be honest gith have a "cool" factor that d-elves don't have

[nauta]

There's no reason not to have a both/and, rather than a neither/nor here. 

Playing a monster is a good escape from the one city state; having monsters out there makes travel exciting and brings the world alive, even if its as simple and brainless as an extra gortok or a desert elf (jokes).

I'd like to see human (or intelligent) antagonists too, but we haven't had that since Tuluk closed.

[spicemustflow]

Red Fangs (RIP) did some virtual trade with gith and there was a role in the tribe for a gith diplomat of sorts. That seems to support the notion that some gith communities could be talked to.

I'm really curious if it's at all mentioned in the docs that the players of Mesa gith received. I'd love semi-open gith clan and don't see any reason against it. You can kill people in fun ways and deserts are way too tame.

[Miradus]

While I enjoy monstrous roles, I do not like the flat, hard-coded evil roles. They're too one-dimensional.

On a Faerun-setting mud, I had a character who was a dark priest of Shar. Not because he was evil and wanted to obliterate the universe, but because he was so good-natured that he wanted to end all human suffering and had decided that nihilism and the destruction of the universe was the only way.

I like complexity in the roles. The best villains don't know they're villains. They aren't evil ... they're just very goal oriented.

[Patuk]

Now lets talk about Antagonists characters in general.  Somebody said that as soon as they decide to go the antagonist route they are gibbed within 2 RL days.  How can this be avoided?  Don't reveal yourself as an antagonist.  think Tony Soprano villain, rather than Freddy Krueger villain, and you might live alot longer.

So.. Then what?

If this ends up happening, we're not going to have much criminal conflict at all. We're instead going to have ten mob bosses without thugs to burn down places or beat up unfortunates. The gith kind of character which appears to exist mainly to kill and burn is one end of the extreme, but going to the other where everyone is a highly sophisticated subtle manipulator won't work, either.

If some kind of antagonist is what you want, then somehow, somewhere, there needs to be an avenue for more simple brutes and heavies.

[whitt]

If some kind of antagonist is what you want, then somehow, somewhere, there needs to be an avenue for more simple brutes and heavies.

Completely agree.  It's too much of an investment of RL time to get a PC to the point (skills and connections necessary) where they can be a viable thug for anyone to be consistently willing to do this.

[bardlyone]

If some kind of antagonist is what you want, then somehow, somewhere, there needs to be an avenue for more simple brutes and heavies.

Completely agree.  It's too much of an investment of RL time to get a PC to the point (skills and connections necessary) where they can be a viable thug for anyone to be consistently willing to do this.

This just makes me miss a pc from back in the day. Gore/Gorma. He was a great brute/thug. He was lirathan'd when he dared visit tuluk though. Which made me really upset.

They exist (or have existed at least), but I agree they are few and far between.

That said, I find myself agreeing with Miradus again here. Pretty much everything he said.

A villain who thinks he's a villain is usually a caricature to the outside world. A real villain is the hero of his own story, and usually just too extreme/driven/oriented and winds up in a ends justify the means situation, or else otherwise simply runs counter to what the other protagonist wants. I think we need less villains and monsters, and more adversaries and rivals and extremists with grey area morality.

[Miradus]

I think any drama has to be manufactured.

There's not really any artificial scarcity. There's not going to be resource wars that aren't induced.

[Patuk]

Ehh. Arm's community has a great many RPG fanatics and writers, which means it skews very heavily to the complex side of things. 'Everyone is the hero of their own story' and whatever the hell else goes into overthinking territory very quickly.

Zasag the 'rinthi mugger isn't someone who thinks what he's doing is right. He also doesn't think it's wrong. Zasag the 'rinthi mugger is someone who grew up in a world without organised moralising religion. Zasag the 'rinthi mugger grew up without parents to tell him what's right and wrong very much. Zasag the 'rinthi mugger doesn't get to talk ethics over his laptop while never fearing for food. Zasag the 'rinthi mugger has one way he knows of to make sure he doesn't starve, so that's just what he does. You can go on about how this fits into grey area X or means justify the ends Y, but as it stands, anyone trying to play Zasag the 'rinthi mugger is going to die in three days with the fury of a thousand half-giants.

[azuriolinist]

I agree that having purely "evil" characters falls flat of what conflict, say, could be. While they might provide an enemy for the playerbase, that's exactly it: by being a villain, they won't provide lasting conflict because the playerbase would probably wipe them out as soon as they caught wind of such things. Sure, that might be fun every now and then. It's often a refreshing change to have to worry about travelling from here to there because of that rumor of a band of gith or somesuch going about. But it's often over with in what seems to be a RL week. Give or take.

Like those have said above, I'd prefer antagonism/rivalry caused by a differentiation in desires. That kind of conflict, in my opinion, tends to be more rewarding in the end. With a group of players split over a goal, this usually generates (sometimes meaningful) conflict.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Synthesis]

The gith docs must've been changed at some point, because there used to be gith NPCs in Red Storm who presumably were there for trade.

They weren't aggro, they weren't in the alleys, they were just there wandering about the streets, not being perceptibly evil or malicious or whatever.

[Patuk]

Given that staff told the gdb there were no gith docs a year and a half ago, you're probably right.

[Molten Heart]

.

[BadSkeelz]

There may be tribes with different values, but the Tableland and Red Desert ones are pretty much evil all the time.

[lostinspace]

If there were people playing gith, I would expect them to be handled as "smarter than your average gith", more cunning and brutal. I don't know about you, but killing such a creature sure seems a waste when we could throw it into an arena full of breeds and see what happens. What we need is a gith role where you just play misc. gith for a couple months, and when you die it doesn't matter, you just get another cookie cutter gith and keep causing a terror in the sands.

[Molten Heart]

.

[ghanima]

I could be remembering incorrectly but I thought someone on staff later mentioned on the GDB that the gith in Red Storm were never meant to be there and their existence was essentially retconned.

If I'm just misremembering, I'd guess their presence there was still quite an anomaly to standard gith culture.

[BadSkeelz]

Gith are already cunning and brutal. The problem is that they're psychologically, almost physiologically incapable of interacting in a non-homicidal fashion with other races. Asking for a gith who can talk with other races is like asking for an elf that can ride.

What we need is a gith role where you just play misc. gith for a couple months, and when you die it doesn't matter, you just get another cookie cutter gith and keep causing a terror in the sands.

We had this and it didn't work. When you have people playing characters that "don't matter" for the sole purpose of "Causing a terror in the sand," you get shitty gamey play where roleplay boils down to who can codegank the other better. There was no interaction. There was no nuance. There was no rivalry or intimidation or satisfaction of a long-running feud being resolved. It was just gank and counter-gank.

Gith are far more useful as a NPC menace that can threaten PCs to give us a source of conflict to play off of. Asking to play them is like asking to play tarantulas in lieu of the Ratsucker storyline. Everyone was impressed and spooked by the spiders, but what made that plotline cool wasn't the culture of the spiders. It was the danger and menace and excitement they brought to a "safe" area of the game.

[nauta]

I dunno.  Placing players in the role of NPCs (be it gortok, gith, or whatever) would (a) be a refreshing change of pace; (b) allow some who do enjoy the code to get that out of their system; and (c) most importantly, it would make the world come alive.

From the other perspective -- and I'm not sure if I actually killed any PC gith or not, since they all looked the same -- having PC gith out there made the tablelands dangerous and exciting.  There were a lot of effects the PC gith had which you may not have noticed: it disrupted common routes, it forced me to move more cautiously through the area, it, in short, forced me to RP the dangers of the wilds instead of just 'pretending' that there might be dangers out there.  When I set up a tent for the night, or found a cave to crawl into, or whatever, I couldn't just idle and have a sandwich -- I had to keep an eye out.  When we traveled, we had to travel in packs.  It was great.

Perhaps the stress to the player of the monster is too much, but I'd think if the expectations were there -- that your job was simply to portray an NPC with a little better intelligence than the artificial scripted intelligence -- then it'd be a fun little escape for a spell.  Sure 99% of your time online would be idling or prowling around, but that's not much different than playing a rinther in the rinth or a Soh Lanah Kah.

Put it another way: if I knew that there were a potential non-NPC danger on the trade route between Luir's and Allanak, you bet I'd view the trip as a lot more exciting, even if I never met that danger a single time.

ETA: Part of this might be that these were gith and the opponents were desert elves.  Both are high-powered, archer-oriented, stealth oriented, high agility, no-mount combatants.  Everything about them feels twinky and gamey.  But if the role were the Benjari, and the opponents a group on mounts, the battles would a lot more emote-friendly, I think.

[nauta]

ETA2:  One thing about the gith thing that bothered me was that we couldn't tell the difference between an NPC gith -- which isn't going to wait around for an emote -- and a PC gith -- which might.  I wonder if a monster were implemented, if it shouldn't have some mark on it to tell people: oh, this is portrayed by a player, so we can slow down a bit.  (Or maybe that'd just cause meta-gamey things.)

[Feco]

Red Fangs (RIP) did some virtual trade with gith and there was a role in the tribe for a gith diplomat of sorts. That seems to support the notion that some gith communities could be talked to.

This is something I was thinking about, too.  I remembered that from the Red Fang docs, and thought it was super cool.  I figure we can't say much more than has already been said, though.

I almost wonder if opening the Red Fang and a Gith tribe together would be a good idea.  The Red Fang weren't 100% of the time killing people -- they could be an interesting medium by which non Red-Fang could, indirectly, interact peacefully with the Gith.

[spicemustflow]

I almost wonder if opening the Red Fang and a Gith tribe together would be a good idea.  The Red Fang weren't 100% of the time killing people -- they could be an interesting medium by which non Red-Fang could, indirectly, interact peacefully with the Gith.

Your're right, the Fangs weren't at all imagined to be the terror of the wastes, they were much more about dirty deals and picking on the weak. During my brief involvement in Tablelands plot, I often thought how having them around would have been awesome for everyone.

[James de Monet]

I'd have to disagree.  I saw some great RP that went on behind the scenes of the gith incursion.  I don't know that it ever extended to quality inter-species RP, but it was definitely cool, and worth the experiment, IMO.

[Akaramu]

Maybe it's time to introduce or re-introduce some baddies we haven't seen in a while.

Dragonthralls!
A demon invasion from beyond the known world
A sorcerer who is actually scary
A new type of monster we haven't seen yet
Horrors spawned from what used to be Tuluk
A monster who mind controls and enslaves PCs, then uses them to infiltrate and attack civilized areas - my personal favorite. How scary would it be to have to fight former friends / allies turned monsters?

In fact, I believe that a completely new type of baddie would really freshen up the game experience for many veterans.

[650Booger]

ETA2:  One thing about the gith thing that bothered me was that we couldn't tell the difference between an NPC gith -- which isn't going to wait around for an emote -- and a PC gith -- which might.  I wonder if a monster were implemented, if it shouldn't have some mark on it to tell people: oh, this is portrayed by a player, so we can slow down a bit.  (Or maybe that'd just cause meta-gamey things.)

I did not know this, and yes that seems very immersion-breaking.  Gith should be able to write their own descs just like everybody else.

[Riev]

I seem to remember documentation somewhere about how gith are a tribal culture, despite being 'evil', who count battle prowess and the ability to tell a great story among their highest honors.


I've had a couple dwarves with the focus to "unite the gith tribes". Derp.

[WanderingOoze]

I sometimes take a break from social characters anyway, and just want to do my thang. I'd totally be down for playing a monster for awhile, just stomping around and eating things that come into my swamp.

I really want to be a braxat, or something. Maybe a Raptor.

[Miradus]

I sometimes take a break from social characters anyway, and just want to do my thang. I'd totally be down for playing a monster for awhile, just stomping around and eating things that come into my swamp.

I really want to be a braxat, or something. Maybe a Raptor.

You start out as a tregil.

[Lutagar]

Hey guys

Hear me out

What if we added

..Vampires

[Miradus]

Sparkly?

[nauta]

ETA2:  One thing about the gith thing that bothered me was that we couldn't tell the difference between an NPC gith -- which isn't going to wait around for an emote -- and a PC gith -- which might.  I wonder if a monster were implemented, if it shouldn't have some mark on it to tell people: oh, this is portrayed by a player, so we can slow down a bit.  (Or maybe that'd just cause meta-gamey things.)

I did not know this, and yes that seems very immersion-breaking.  Gith should be able to write their own descs just like everybody else.

Well, to be fair, some did I believe, but so too did some NPCs, and with the hoods up they all looked like clawfoot to me.

[650Booger]

..Vampires

... and catgirls

[Patuk]

Hey guys

Hear me out

What if we added

..Vampires

It's been done. An NPC in Luir's even has a discuss script mentioning these, I think.

[nauta]

I sometimes take a break from social characters anyway, and just want to do my thang. I'd totally be down for playing a monster for awhile, just stomping around and eating things that come into my swamp.

I really want to be a braxat, or something. Maybe a Raptor.

You start out as a tregil.

Code Select Expand


In the Shade of Rocky Cliffs [N, E]
A shadow falls over the area, driving off the uncomfortable heat.
A grey-horned, shaggy white ox is reclining here, looking a bit winded.
A small needle-beaked rusty-red insectoid creature is here.

The late, red sun descends toward the western horizon.


A small, round pellet-sized dropping falls from above...

> look up
Up from here is Cliff Face.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
A small hairless creature grazes here, ears alert.


[Lutagar]

..Vampires

... and catgirls

vampire catgirls when

[WanderingOoze]

I sometimes take a break from social characters anyway, and just want to do my thang. I'd totally be down for playing a monster for awhile, just stomping around and eating things that come into my swamp.

I really want to be a braxat, or something. Maybe a Raptor.

You start out as a tregil.

Code Select Expand


In the Shade of Rocky Cliffs [N, E]
A shadow falls over the area, driving off the uncomfortable heat.
A grey-horned, shaggy white ox is reclining here, looking a bit winded.
A small needle-beaked rusty-red insectoid creature is here.

The late, red sun descends toward the western horizon.


A small, round pellet-sized dropping falls from above...

> look up
Up from here is Cliff Face.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
A small hairless creature grazes here, ears alert.


Thats hilarious. 

[Miradus]

Tregil 1, desert wanderer 0

[Synthesis]

If you want to play a gith-type PC, really all you have to do is roll a city-elf 'rinther.

You'll be treated pretty much the same way.

[Miradus]

I played one once.

He had the amazing ability to have cloaks, backpacks, and dusters slam shut as soon as he walked into the bar.

[Synthesis]

I played one once.

He had the amazing ability to have cloaks, backpacks, and dusters slam shut as soon as he walked into the bar.

> help vestim

Vestimentalists                                                          (Guilds)

Vestim is the element of clothing, specifically of containers, and pertains to all
wearable clothing accessible to the steal command.  Vestimentum mages (or
vestimentalists) have an innate magickal bond to such objects, and are able
to manipulate them seemingly at whim, oftentimes without even intending to.

Due to long-standing genetic isolation and breeding practices, only city-elves
can harness the power of vestim.

[BadSkeelz]

Finally a magicker I can support.

[Patuk]

Quiet, you two! They might get karma restricted!

[Dar]

Once as a Red Fang, I kidnapped a female gith NPC. I hoped to talk to her and established trade with the gith. So I knock her out and drag her off to some hidden cave. Tie her up, block off exits, the works. She wakes up, but she doesnt want to communicate. She's all hisses and attempts (occasionally successful) to bite me. I try this approach, that approach, waying, gesticulating, controlled violence, nothing works.

Eventually I get tired. But I told her if she leaves, she'd die. She's got no water, and she's in the middle of very hot nowhere. So we play a game. I told her if she is to show, or demonstrate, a single one thing that she is better at then me, I'll give her water and let her go. She shows me her breasts ... My RF considered showing his own 'unique' feature to counteract her demonstration, but considered the possibilities of having it bitten off. He conceded, gave her water, and let her go.

Whoever animated that scene. Kudos. Kudos. Kudos.

I began reading Ath's thread. Ath's been real super coming up with awesome topics lately. I didnt have the time to finish reading it, so I never posted. I'd post here, because ... I finished reading this one? We dont need evil players. Evil players are not what makes conflict. Evil players are not what make the warrior RP worthwhile and multifaceted. Conflicts make conflicts. So we need more things for people to conflict about. But what do we really need to conflict about, except reputation and noble favor?  You want an emerald? Go and greb one. If you cant yourself, hire a grebber to greb one. It might take awhile, you might have to wait until you meet the right grebber. But once you get the grebber who knows the spot, how to get there, and actually wants to waste time grebbing for you ... EMERALDS GALORE!

Some other crafter wants emeralds? Is he going to ... stop you from getting them? No. He'll just hire another grebber to go greb at the same spot. With pretty much infinite resources and no real shortage of anything vital. The conflict will have to be only roleplayed out. And it is. And it's rped out very well! ... sometimes. Aaaaand sometimes, it's easier for folks to get along nicely. It's more profitable, and extra allies will help in this 20 step scheme that you've got that is ment to give some aide you dont like a zit.

Create something people have no choice, but to conflict over. And you'll get conflict. No side there will be evil. Some will be moral. Some immoral. But they will still conflict with each other.

[Aruven]

I love how these discussions get boiled down into 'shitty characters code spamming combat instead of RP limiting our choices'.

Have the staff fucking pull karma from people that don't ever care to emote and be done with it. It is totally possible to have players slow down even if they know they might die and RP, it happens all the time. The first time a player is gleefully looting said corpse and a staff lets them know they've been docked, they'll either quit or change.

Those people that kill like 40 day old characters without a word by just riding up on them and spamming combat (because they know over like 8 characters who they are and how powerful they are) could and probably should be docked for karma and things. I'm not talking about backstab. Everyone that knows this game knows what i'm talking about.

I missed the whole gith thing because I quit playing for awhile (Again), I remember being singled out on the boards roughly for being like "I think this idea is dumb, because you will just get ganked as gith PC, because we aren't addressing players without RP just ganking other players in an RP game", and generally what I read now points to that.

My first character back, I rolled my eyes at someone in the bar, walked out of crim-coded rooms and was spam ganked for it with basically no RP involved. I don't even think I typed in a command other than about making bloody sounds.

This discussion around antagonists and shit will always happen unless that part changes. basically saying : "We as a community cannot agree to fix this totally human problem so we'll just get around it somehow" isn't working.

For example, i've played only a handful of 'villains', and seriously within 30 RL minutes of one of  them revealing who they were to a single PC player, they were in touch with multiple psionicists, had an entire clan teleported into their room for some spammy combat, and hours of discussions and e-mails with staff went down the drain with the mantis face. None of it was done with any good RP at all. None. So...

There isn't an incentive to be a villain usually. Other players generally kill you immediately and also, thus, any building or arcing plotline that involves them and makes RP fun for them (or you). People that have played the game know how difficult and often how ungratifying it can be to put effort developing yourself into a role.

I'd love to hear sometime how good/bad Hawk's experience was over their playtime.

TL:DR: More staff time docking karma from people who can't manage to ever RP combat and death.

Hypothesis: Consequences will lead to an altered state of decisions by PC playerbase to be shitty combat RP'ers or good ones. Once 'good ones' is predominant, villains and conflict and antagonists will pick up because even so long as a player dies in a good roleplay scene, they can generally be happy.

[Aruven]

Also, include scrutiny of things like ;

-Players quitting when people are looking for them two rooms away. (Quitting to avoid a scene with potential death)
-Players choosing to flee in a direction instead of address a PC character that has entered the room with them. (Shitty RP to escape instead of roleplay) ((EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THIS ONE. LETS NOT PRETEND IT ISN'T A THING. You want change, hold players responsible when it happens.))