Author Topic: Remaining Organizations  (Read 6891 times)

Armaddict

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2016, 02:06:19 AM »
Well.  As far as outsourcing materials, is there a difference between an independent on retainer with a house and a house hunter?

(Sorry for the derail, this being the first I've heard of it, I'm overwhelmingly curious how it's set up.)
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Lutagar

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2016, 04:34:49 AM »
Sort of skeptical about the change since hunting/grebbing is one of those professions where you can get crazy rich without speaking to another PC, but I like it in theory. Staying cautiously optimistic.

John

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2016, 05:10:49 AM »
Well.  As far as outsourcing materials, is there a difference between an independent on retainer with a house and a house hunter?

(Sorry for the derail, this being the first I've heard of it, I'm overwhelmingly curious how it's set up.)
I think the policy happened exactly 1 RL week ago. I think it's worthwhile contacting a GMH agent if you want IG details.

As to the OOC considerations. I thought about this a year or two. It solves the problem of two clans maybe being at half capacity most times. If a clan of hunters gets established and the clan limit is equal to one of the GMH clans you get a full clan with PCs potentially competing to join said clan. The reason I didn't pursue it as a player was in theory Salarri hunters and Kadian hunters could fight each other (a single hunting clan reduces PCs who conflict with each other).

That said, I do like these changes if it's designed to increase conflict between MMHs and GMHs. I am also happy to hear if it has increased conflict (not 100% sure how that has occurred, but I'm pretty happy to hear it has).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 05:14:55 AM by John »
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John

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2016, 05:40:48 AM »
hunting/grebbing is one of those professions where you can get crazy rich without speaking to another PC
To what end? Seriously. Have you ever done this? And if so, how did it play out? How much did you enjoy it?

I've made tons of 'sid with a character one time, and it got me nowhere. If you do get tons of coin, you can buy awesome armor, you can (eventually when someone dies) get a nice apartment fully furnished. But then what? Thanks to you selling to NPCs you've amassed a fortune. Coin can no longer be used to motivate you. Alternatively, if you don't deal solely with NPCs (or even primarily with NPCs once your primary needs have been taken care of) then you will still get the awesome armour (eventually) but while you work towards it, your character will have lesser armor and can be motivated by coin that can then be used to gain the awesome armor the other PC got. You'll still eventually get a nice apartment. But people can pay you in coin, armor or favours that get you what you want.

I can understand doing the "filthy rich grebber" once or twice. But once you've done it, what's the point? Play a character and not a 'sid generating machine and you'll likely have more fun.
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Inks

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2016, 06:17:31 AM »
Stuff is going well with the ig power dynamic. Get in there chaps.

Good move on the resources/hunter stuff.
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Lizzie

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2016, 08:03:48 AM »
The more I think about it, the more I really like this change. It never really made much sense for Kadius or Kurac to have "hunters" at all (and Kurac doesn't have them). Salarr, well that kind of makes sense, since most of their merchandise is made with materials acquired through hunting. But skinning a chalton doesn't produce a length of silk, and 'craft horn into few" doesn't produce a diamond.

Armaddict: the difference is that one gets the benefits of codedly being able to come and go from the clan compound, get auto-paid by an NPC, auto-fed by the clan cook. The other does not, but can get paid immediately upon hire instead of after a year of recruitment. In addition, it's up to the roleplay, rather than NPC scripts, to decide whether or not the hunter gets the food, water, stable fees paid. Everything becomes more geared toward roleplay, while at the same time, the raw materials still come in (assuming the clan leaders do what's necessary to get it done).

It also would make more use of the Byn now, since hunters won't be doubling as wagon guards or scouts. And now, even low-ranking nobody clanned members will (hopefully) be able to secure a buddy outside the clan to take them out grebbing for rocks, chalton hides or herbs nearby (assuming this aspect of the rules becomes more relaxed).
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Miradus

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2016, 10:53:00 AM »
The cynical side of me thinks that what's going to happen will be worse.

As a non-connected (read that as someone with no friends) indie I have almost no chance of selling anything to one of the agents of Kadius/Salarr. Because I never see them. When they need something they Way one of their friends in one of the previously established trading groups like Aldren or Darkmoon. Can I go work for one of those? Maybe. Again. I rarely see them and when I do they refer me to someone else I can never find.

When the change was announced I was optimistic but I think it's reinforcing the clique nature of Arm. As a nobody (no friends) I had a chance to go join one of the houses as a hunter. As some random indie I have very little chance to consistently sell to a GMH beyond unloading whatever junk is in my packs if I bump into one in the Gaj (which I don't see too many fancy merchant types going to).

Time will tell, but thus far all I've noticed is that I lost one avenue of possibility and haven't been able to gain another. It may be good for the game overall, but it hasn't been good for me personally.

Riev

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2016, 11:04:04 AM »
Miradus, as a suggestion:

This idea also opens up the "middle man" role that I've suggested for years now. Rather than House Hunters doing the work, its indies or perhaps other MMH groups that come together to be the House Dasari of the indie world (raw resources).

If you aren't able to sell directly to Salarr or Kadius, maybe you can find someone who does. Who takes your shit, and re-sells it to Salarr/Kadius for a profit.
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Miradus

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2016, 11:15:09 AM »

Yeah, I think this will take some time to really develop. Immediately after it seemed to go right back to the same cliques.

Unlike other fantasy games, you can't just go into the tavern and announce that you're looking for fellow adventurers. It takes longer to develop bonds in game and then those people just disappear and become new characters (or you do). I don't like the Byn much and other than tribals, there isn't any other shake-and-bake roles to step in where you'll have people to hang out with.

It's the thing I dislike most about Arm.

Armaddict

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2016, 12:13:19 PM »
Quote
It solves the problem of two clans maybe being at half capacity most times.

Eh.

You have to remember I don't regard this as a problem.  I had far more fun in the game when there were 3 clans each with 2 people than 1 clan with six people.  Those three groups were competing and came with naturally built in motivations against each other, even if not outright hostile, making for a lot more interesting of a game than six people hanging out in a bar waiting for staff or another group to give them something to do.

This seems to be another rendition of the 'remove House clans, now there are only nobles and one aide' move, which I still regard as damaging, not helpful, in the long term.  Short term it seemed dandy, long term...well.  We have a bunch of threads going on about meaningful activity because we've removed a lot of 'innate' activity that occurred just by having more clans and jobs and interests available.

Edit:  Really, more restrictions in choice of a role playing game, especially one that is supposed to be handing reins over to players more, is counter-productive towards what we were doing.  Even if a clan sits empty 50% of the time, I'd still rather see it be available just for the option of that lone player who decides they would like to play it, and represent it in the current state of the game/city/political scene.

Second edit:  In those same lines...I was one of those who never really got Tuluk.  It didn't fit.  Every time I played there, everything was 'meh' and didn't make sense.  I was glad when we closed it.  But that 'Good move!' went away when we closed a bunch of Allanaki clans at the same time.  Then it went away even more when we emphasized tribal play.  We removed a long-standing, reliable conflict, removed small-scale internal city conflicts that we were then dependent on for a naturally driving force, then opened up a non-conflicting area to redisperse into.  Even if hunters weren't the favorite area of the game, it was still players with their own ideas and motivations to increase the prevalence of their clan in the game-scene and all the activities that came with it, even if those were merely interventionist.  I'm not sure if this will go the same way as the noble-clan-removal did in my experience of the game because it was a fundamentally different role, but I'm really not a fan of limiting choices for where I can go, particularly as a super-Allanak player.

Aaaand this should have gone in the other thread.  I didn't see it until after I responded.  I'll repair/fix things and make them more tailored to the other discussion after work.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 12:45:30 PM by Armaddict »
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Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2016, 01:04:31 PM »
What are the barriers (perceived or real)  to starting your own group?

I remember I had a specific character who wanted to be a skimmer captain with his own crew. I talked in-game to dozens of people and tried to pay them to come with me and the answer was always no. Later I found out that the skimmer code is slightly more deadly than the climb code with the potential for insta-death entirely in the hands of constant RNG.

Molten Heart

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2016, 01:30:45 PM »
Skimmers are fun. It'd be nice if there were more than one port to travel to on the eternal sea of dust. I too have always wanted to have a pirate crew but what does the game world have to offer a PC skimmer crew? Not much, the skimmer crew part turns out to be mostly for flavor and in effect they aren't much different from most indy groups.

The problem with indy groups is they are limited to what each individual members brings with them. At some point there are limits to an indy groups growth and ic abilities that can only be overcome with staff support.

When players join coded clans there is the expectation of "something more" that is offered through staff support, staff/game created opportunities, and the virtual pre-existing of portions of the clan.

One problem is depending upon unproven special app leaders to be a draw in attracting players to clans. It isn't enough for a clan to exist and expect players to join. Players expect/hope clans will give them more opportunities than being unaffiliated. Unless a clan has existing clan members and/or a clan leader(s) who provide engaging and exciting roleplaying opportunities that clan members are able to be a part of, the limitations that most clans impose aren't worth it. There are more opportunities in being an unaffiliated independent. Clans don't run themselves. If a staff member isn't actively doing it, it requires at least a good PC leader to do it.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:35:52 PM by Molten Heart »

650Booger

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2016, 01:45:07 PM »
Also not mentioned here yet, House Oash in allanak is the only 'known' organization to hire Gemmed magickers.  Should you want to try your hand at that.

while this is awesome for Oash, I just want to point out that it is a pretty huge power imbalance, especially considering the closure of the wyverns and other noble military wings.
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Molten Heart

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2016, 01:46:39 PM »
In the past House Tor has been known to occasionally hire krathi war mages.

perfecto

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2016, 10:19:20 PM »
Maybe the Byn should have their own gicker squad?
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2016, 10:22:34 PM »
Only if they bunk in the latrines.
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Pale Horse

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2016, 11:18:48 PM »
In the past House Tor has been known to occasionally hire krathi war mages.

If I remember right, this is no longer acceptable policy for the clan.
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Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1869
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2016, 03:40:42 PM »
In the past House Tor has been known to occasionally hire krathi war mages.

If I remember right, this is no longer acceptable policy for the clan.

Sad. A krathi warrior as a war mage would be the bomb.

Incognito

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2016, 05:40:21 AM »
Removal of GMH hunters is an awesome move!! We'll definitely see more interaction as a result.

Definitely two thumbs up on this!

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Riev

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2016, 08:49:39 AM »
Removal of GMH hunters is an awesome move!! We'll definitely see more interaction as a result.

Definitely two thumbs up on this!

Its already been felt, and I feel its caused the MMH system to really find some competitive roles. No more "Well we hunt, but I guess we're just going to get killed or bought out by Salarr". Now its "We're going to make our bones being the best hunters/gatherers/miners/etc".

Though it gives the GMHs a bit less of a trusted source of "I need you to do this, and it might require some of your martial skills". Which PERSONALLY I'm okay with for certain reasons, but as a GMH member I might be feeling the squeeze and want to hire on "combat aides" instead.
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Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2016, 10:05:39 AM »

I'd hoped for more competition and conflict in it. A lot of hunting groups have sprung up as a result but they don't really seem to compete.

I want to see something like the resource wars of colonial Africa, or a new gold rush, or the fur trapping trade.

The arbitrary nature of NPC spawns or "forage rock = get gem" means that there aren't really any shortages which would drive competition. The competition would need to be agreed upon OOC by the different hunting groups, who would then lose out to random independents who aren't in on the deal.


nauta

  • Posts: 2206
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2016, 10:21:14 AM »

I'd hoped for more competition and conflict in it. A lot of hunting groups have sprung up as a result but they don't really seem to compete.

I want to see something like the resource wars of colonial Africa, or a new gold rush, or the fur trapping trade.

The arbitrary nature of NPC spawns or "forage rock = get gem" means that there aren't really any shortages which would drive competition. The competition would need to be agreed upon OOC by the different hunting groups, who would then lose out to random independents who aren't in on the deal.

I agree that competition is more 'virtual' and 'imaginary' than code-enforced, but there is still competition (and definitely in the game).  I'll keep it hypothetical, but the two areas of conflict/competition that happen:

1. Hunting Grounds. You on ma turf!  Neck arrow for you.
2. Trading Partners. You traded that with those assholes?

I do wish there were more Quirri effects in the game.  So what's the Quirri effect?  Well, its when you have a resource that spawns in an area of the game where one group claims ownership, which doesn't spawn at a shop (too often), is unique, and in demand.  Hence, getting Quirri requires either (a) a risky trespass; or (b) negotiation with that group.

It's a neat place where coded supply runs up against in-game demand.

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Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2016, 11:20:30 AM »
I know it may not seem immediately apparent that this is stirring up conflict, but it actually is. I've seen firsthand with two PC's multiple plots being started because of the clan hunter loss.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2016, 11:34:16 AM »
2. Trading Partners. You traded that with those assholes?

I see this happen enough that I KNOW it happens, but not nearly as much as I'd prefer myself. I feel like if you start a resource trading company, and Salarr is your biggest client, you'll probably sell to them more often. But I can't see Salarr asking for exclusivity, that just kind of circumvents the change.

I'd like to see a lot more competition insofar as the CLIENTS of these groups. Make outrageous demands, ask for things they probably can't get. Fight other Houses that are getting the resources -you- deserve! Kadius doesn't need those scrabs shells as much as we do! I'm going to have a talk with that Overseer...
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tortall

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Re: Remaining Organizations
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2016, 02:49:55 PM »
So I'm going at address a few things here from experience as a Salarri crafter/Merchant.

Crafters when they first start out need a LOT of raw items to work with. They need this to get skilled enough to MC items, which is really the biggest reason for crafters as(unless this has changed in the last 2-3 years), most of what people want is NOT craftable. Or if it is, you basically need to be a really high level to make it, much less make it without failing and ruining that hard to get material.

I can't see Salarr paying an Indi group 800 sid a month(the 300 salary AFTER a recruit year plus additional to cover the food that they don't have to provide them) but require them to bring in a certain number of hides. That's just not good business, and the crafters are going to sit there with nothing to craft and they can't personally go to indi hunters and get the materials they need because they don't have the authority to make deals on behalf of Salarr.

I understand they were trying to make indi's more playable, but.... I dunno. Maybe the system has changed a lot in the last 2-3 years and you can actually get stuff IG.


As to the "Quirri Effect", I've personally done this before as a merchant. Set up regular trades for hard to get items so our men wouldn't get shot going into the area they don't want us in. Worked out really well until the PCs I had deals with disappeared and I didn't have any other contacts and tried to set up other contacts for IG years.

Again, my experience here is 2-3 RL years out of date, but this is coming from a crafter/merchant of Salarr that was with them from the age of 15-38(I assumed force stored when Tuluk was closed 'cause I wasn't playing at that time, but still had the PC).
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