Plant Life around Allanak

[Ath]

So I have a topic in mind here that could support something I am doing down the road.  As always, we don't give details on upcoming projects, as we don't want to get hopes up and let people down if it doesn't go through.  I will also put a big fat disclaimer here, as some do tend to run wild with their imaginations...  this topic will be moderated by myself, and is for the purposes for discussion, thoughts, ideas, and constructive criticism.  It isn't for complaints, speculations, or to give out secrets on the game.  This topic will be on the Planet Life around Allanak, I do ask that if you know of more rare plants and their locations, please don't disclose them, as that isn't what I am looking for here.

So Allanak is smack dab in the middle of a desert, but does have some vegetation around it.  It does have some farms to the south, a clay might, but also a new area of scoria that has cropped up.  So agriculturally, there has been a lot going on in the Allanak region.  So we're talking the Salt Flats, the Desert surrounding, the grassy areas to the south and around Red Storm, and the Scoria plains.  Right now there are few plants scattered around these areas, some more than other, some might even be lacking.  I'd like to talk about these plants, what could potentially grow, what could not grow, what areas do you think could have new stuff growing, or is there just not enough plantlife period in these areas?

This is an open topic, but I'd like to keep it on task.  If you stray from the topic, I will just remove your post.  Once again, don't give away specific locations of plants, and don't directly give away rarer plants (there really are none around Allanak that I can think of), if we do, I'll just edit out specific names.  None of this is game breaking.  If you don't want to learn about areas around Allanak, I just suggest not reading this topic.

Thank you guys!  I look forward to hearing what you all have to say.

Note:  I will close this topic when I feel that it has met the goal I have in mind.  Which is to gather information and feedback on Plant Life around Allanak.

[Lizzie]

Plants in real life that grow on/around volcanos (and on scoria and thrive on volcanic ash) that could presumably grow near Allanak:

Coffee
Grape vines (also needs to be watered, so this wouldn't be wild. It'd be cultivated).
Assorted mosses (needs moisture but not necessarily rain)
Silversword (requires humidity, which is a common stratospherical condition in the presence of volcanos) - again - something that might be cultivated from the volcano that -used- to be outside Allanak.

In "real life" volcanic plantlife tends to thrive in moist climates, since volcanos create moist climates. Now that the volcano is gone in the Allanak area, it could probably be assumed that cactii and other succulents are popping back out of the ground. In addition, common desert plants, the Zalanthan versions of rosemary, sage, and lavender could all grow in the new scoria area.

[AdamBlue]

With the farm close to Allanak, I'm surprised there isn't more natural to find wheat/flour available to Allanak. The fact that there is a 'famine' in a city so large for such a long time when there are so many possible resources to be had baffles me. With the expansion of Allanak, more and more advanced harvesting techniques and skills, as well as gemmed intervention, you'd think the problem with food and water in Allanak from farming would have been at least somewhat dealt with. In fact, more food types should be more readily available.

[Ath]

That Famine has been over for awhile now, prices were lowered again from what they were.  The issue is now there is a reduced amount of food coming in, so prices are no where near where they were before.

You bring up the gemmed with this, who in their right mind would ever want to eat food that the gemmed ever touched or had any inclination to work with.  The general populace of Allanak hate/dispise/fear the gemmed.  While I realize that some mundane characters will be friendly with them, that is not the general populaces attitude towards them.

The issue at the current point is there is limited "suitable" areas for forming around Allanak.  Now if players in leadership positions wish to take it upon themselves to try to improve things in some way within constraints of the technology and ability of their characters, you never know what could happen.

--

I do think the Scoria has promise.  It's an area that I've been doing a bit of research on... it's been a few years since the volcano, it could be possible something may grow there.  That would be a Producer level decision, but at the moment nothing grows there.

[Miradus]

Coffee requires a very specific climate and elevation, not just rainfall and moisture. Grapes require seasonal cycles to produce.

The presence of the salt flats means very little is going to be grown on the east side. Salt kills soil and with it blowing around, there shouldn't even be vNPC wheat farms there from an ecological standpoint.

Those scoria plains, as described, do not look like they would support much plant life at all. There has to be nutrition in the soil. The dusty and arid plains would support basic grasses and small shrubs. The grasses would be similar to Johnson grass in their ability to prevent predation through phytotoxins. Any grazing animals would need to be browsers similar to goats and deers as opposed to cattle in order to diminish phytotoxin buildup.

To be the most ecologically correct, "pioneer plants" would need to be introduced to terraform the area. A host of low-growing clovers and thorns, what we normally would consider weeds, would be introduced to fix nitrogen in the soil and break down scoria into actual soil. It normally takes a million or so years to turn volcanic scoria like in Hawaii into lush, fertile soil like Idaho. But it can and does happen. You could show the process beginning. Trees could be planted to establish windbreaks. Over 80% of the energy young plants consume is utilized for standing upright. This is why windswept regions often have very low-growing plants.

If it were me, I would initiate it as a project of the High Lord and have him establish a special house to deal with agriculture. You have a house which deals with fine luxury goods, one that deals with arms and armor, one that deals with spice and desert survival. Why not one that deals specifically with animal breeding and agriculture? That would let you explain away the speed at which the desert and scoria is being transformed as part of an expansive terraforming effort.

Sorry. Normally I lurk, but I'm a botanist who has written books on botany. Plants will draw me out of the shadows every time.

[valeria]

The scoria plains are volcanic, which tend to weather into rich soils.  However, part of one of the things that makes them rich is that they hold water very well, which isn't necessarily true of the scoria.

For the scoria area, I would add:
mosses
scoria lily
ocotillo (because they're oniony and wild onion is a possibility)
yucca
wild mustard
golden pea (possibly, tends to require at least some moisture)
woody plantain (probably like the woody white roots, a pickable version instead of a forageable version)

For the desert area I'm surprised we don't/have more have more:
sedge/grasses
thorn shrubs
bimbal (because it already grows in the area)
snakeweed (already grows in the area)
some form of red pea (iffy, does require at least one rain IRL)

[nauta]

Yes, please!

Re: realism - you can always handwave a little and say it was a magic volcano and magic scoria, so the vegetation that took root grew magically fast.

You could also introduce small oases where many kinds of plants would flourish.

--

Here are some things that, according to room descriptions, help files, and/or NPC vendors, seem to be available in the Red Storm/Nak region, although as far as I can tell they are either completely virtual or at the very least not very well distributed.

Gohn grasses.

Grebel grasses.

Nemik mushrooms.

Gahtle stalks.

Red Beans.

hard, powdery blue vegetables.

Silt fruit.

handful of thin-skinned green berries.

Styrax (I mean, seriously, everything in Red Storm is made out of Styrax, but where the heck is this stuff?)

a small purple flower

a wild desert rose

a small, turquoise-colored flower

a small pink flower

As well: there are loads of plants that grow in the Red Desert that could also grow down in the south:

Haspeth
Arato
Makras
Joybane
Sivifi
Sandspider
Runebane
Chedya
Heinspike
Precos
Chuci peppers.

[Desertman]

There's an odd absence of cacti in this entire region actually.

There should be multiple types probably with some affording different cacti fruit, thorns, fibers, maybe even poisons?

At the end of the day it is a fantasy game as well, so I vote for this.


A leathery-tentacled, sand strangler vine

It's a vine that grows actually beneath the loose sand out of the rotting remains of long dead corpses that have bee covered by the blowing dunes. It's an interesting cycle of life actually. The vines use the corpses of the dead as nutrients to get them going. Once they are grown they are known to lash out from beneath the sand and kill travelers and passing creatures alike. Once dead the vine pulls them back beneath the surface to add to their root system for nutrients. The vines themselves have an ongoing agreement with the carrion birds of the region. Once a plant dies it gives off the scent of a dozen rotting corpses for days. This is likely due to the fact it feeds entirely off of said corpses. This attracts carrion birds who come to pick at the grossly meat-like flesh of the dead plant. Within the flesh there are seeds. The carrion birds inherently end up taking some of these seeds along with them to the next "dead thing" they pick over and by chance end up leaving seeds behind to take root in said remains and grow more vines anew. Thus, the circle of life continues.

Extreme bonus points if these can be coded to pick up all of the items from the people/things they kill. Some animals now will eat a corpse and leave all of the items behind. In this case, the vines would eat the corpse, but then "get all" and keep all of the items in its very large inventory over time. Basically, getting the loot would be roleplayed as finding the rotting corpses being slowly decomposed at the roots of these plants with their gear more or less intact. The vines don't eat the gear, or the corpses really, they just feed off of them naturally as they decompose at their root systems. It would be fun to kill these vines and actually find loot hordes 'beneath' them.

Disclaimer: Stolen and Zalanthanized/desertized from a vine in Dungeons and Dragons that does more or less the same thing to an extent.

[Desertman]

A black-thorned, bulbous-sacked plant....or something similar.

Basically it's a plant that grows in very "water scarce" areas that produces the equivalent of bulbous root sacs. I vote for, "a wrinkled black sac", because the jokes would be real.

Anyhow, you can "pick" the water sacs, a couple of them at a time, from this plant but you would risk being poisoned via the handy new "plants can poison you" code with grishen. Grishen seems fitting.

I think the far salt flats seems like a good area, or a certain network of canyons in the other direction.

[path]

Here are some plants from the old website I think would make sense. Probably some of them are already what you find. I don't know. I cordially second everything suggested by valeria and nauta.


Ashkiss: Dusty grey and pallid, this sparse growth of lichen manages to survive on the minimal amounts of moisture in the air. Its powdery flakes look edible but utterly unappealing.
Grows in arid terrain, on rocks.

Haspeth: Much like a spineless cactus, this yellow plant has very thick skin. Thick yellow seeds can be picked off it.
Found in the Red Desert, this plant's seeds are edible.

Jesstik: They lie close to the ground, leaving barren earth between where the rounded edges join together here and there in a haphazard pattern to form a single mass which covers a broad swathe of ground. From centers of the largest rounded bumpy lumps protrude cord long crystalline spikes. On the very tip of some of these can be seen brittle, fragile looking blooms.
Grows exclusively in salty areas, and its decorative flowers and leaves bear a close resemblance to salt crystals.

Jherweed: The clump of weedy, light-brown tendrils that form this plant is spotted all over with tiny black seeds, about the size of a human's least fingernail.
Native to sandy wastelands.

Joybane: The round, woody stem of this plant is covered with small, rounded and lobed blue-green leaves dotted with oil glands which give off a strongly pungent aroma. Frilled, slipper-shaped greenish-yellow flowers blossom atop the rigid stem.
Named for the pungent oil the leaves release when handled, which causes the eyes to well up with tears, causing involunatary weeping. Used as a seasoning, this plant grows in both scrub and desert climes.

Khee: This spindly plant is over three cords in height and crowned with miniscule clusters of flat yellow flowers. The finely cut, lime green leaves are wispy-looking and deeply aromatic, with a sweet, anise-like fragrance. The bright green stalk seems to grow out of a fleshy, white bulb.
All parts of this plant are edible, and used in cooking or seasoning. The leaves are also used to make perfume. Found in a variety of terrains.

Pech Grass: Bladed in stiff, spearlike leaves, this tall grass grows a few cords high, shaded in dry browns and thin edged gold.
Good grazing, pech grass is the most common type of grass in the Known World.

Marilla: This brownish-white tree stands about five cords in height and is about as wide as a human's thigh. Its bark is smooth and hugs the tannish wood beneath as it rises from the ground, odd because of its lack of leaves.

Maar: This appears to be a maar tree, by its twisted, dark yellow appearance and stubby size. At no more than knee height its trunk divides into a tangled mess of branches, each fringed with fern-like maroon leaves.
One of the only trees not found in forests; it ekes out existence in desert-like conditions.

Runebane: Large oval leaves, crumpled and wilted a little from rough handling, are scattered with a mottling of white spots. A funnel shaped flower, purplish blue in color, is mixed in with the foliage.
Used in bandages and salves for its numbing properties, this plant is common in rocky, semi-arid regions.

Sandspider: Long and thin, this leaf looks a lot like a spider's leg. Reddish brown in color, it blends into the desert sands quite well.
Reputedly an elven aphrodisiac, this plant is found in the desert, as the name implies.

Sivifi: This wiry bush is clearly a product of the desert, its narrow, almost rectangular leaves designed to conserve their precious moisture. In color, they are grey, with only the slightest hint of green evident beneath the surface, shading to a dusty rose at the very tip. A few orange flowers grow deep within the bush, near the base, as shaded as possible by the upper foliage.
Its seeds are used to flavor one variety of cheese, and are edible themselves. Found in otherwise desolate areas, particularly in the southlands.

Stingtongue: This tiny leaf is perhaps an inch wide, perhaps a trifle less. It is perfectly circular, and a deep blue-green in color.
Named for its bitterness, this herb is useful in reducing fevers. Found in mesas and other stony areas.

Tembotooth: These leaves are long, narrow, and glossy green. Brushed, they release a warm, peppery scent with hints of anise.
Chewed for their mildly stimulating qualities, and used in cooking and seasoning, as well as in a spicy perfume.

Templar's Heart: Blossoms of a bright red, a shade resembling human blood, adorn each of the spidery crimson vine's lanky tendrils, spaced at intervals with slender, pronged thorns.
The flowers of this southern vine are used to make a rare perfume.

Tenichi: These long calyxed, purple flowers with bright yellow stamens are borne on long stalks, the leaves a glossy purplish green in color.
Growing in oases, this plant bears both vibrant blossoms and small edible figs.

Thilareyn: A sprawling tangle of vines running every which way, this plant seems to subsist on the dry climate of the desert. Tendrils depend from the vines, each one leading down into the ground, anchoring the plant. From the vines grow small, hard berries.
The berries of this desert vine are edible.

Thugi: This pepper plant thrives in rocky terrain. Its scraggly, purple-green leaves shade small, wrinkled black peppers.
This extremely hot, edible pepper grows in the southlands.


edited to add the link: http://old.armageddon.org/general/plantlife.html

[nauta]

Oh, yeah, thugi peppers!  Please!

You could also have certain kinds of plants blown in from the silt sea that took root along the shore.

Also, re: cacti -- Cenyr has about six or seven kinds of cacti objects pretty much unique to it.  You could use these objects.

A small comment (some thoughts) on gameplay and plants.

1. I don't think we need any more 'cure' plants -- cures and cure plants are already far too easy to come by inside the game, in my opinion, since (a) brewing a cure even at novice is no-fail and (b) the leaves/cures do not decay.

2. I'd like to see more plants that have a use in more mundane things, like: basketweaving, floristry, dyeing,  incenses, soaps, seasonings (see our awesome help file on SEASONINGS - a lot of which are non-craftable).

3. The fauna.  Gathering plants in the Grasslands is a fun challenge, because the animals up there have a lot of interesting and dynamic scripts.  In the south, no offense to death beetles and spiders, the critters aren't too interesting: a plant gatherer in the south is either suicidal/playing-their-odds, a Byn unit, or a giant/gick. 

4. Yes, please, open up a House Dasari in the south!

[Ath]

Awesome botany stuff here.

Hey, I love the feedback... and any professional information is great when referencing for a fantasy world.  Thankfully we are a fantasy world so we have a bit of ability to be creative with what we come up with, as long as it isn't too out there.

The scoria plains are volcanic, which tend to weather into rich soils.  However, part of one of the things that makes them rich is that they hold water very well, which isn't necessarily true of the scoria.

For the desert area I'm surprised we don't/have more have more:

I tend to agree, hence the topic and the ideas.  Scoria might be too new, but it's a thought process and could be changed in time, who know what can grow there.

Yes, please!

Re: realism - you can always handwave a little and say it was a magic volcano and magic scoria, so the vegetation that took root grew magically fast.

You could also introduce small oases where many kinds of plants would flourish.

That is all very true.  Also suggestions are great.  Oases are rough... as that make a huge game-play shift and then local powers will go all out trying to claim.  We have to think about game-play and world fit.

There's an odd absence of cacti in this entire region actually.

There should be multiple types probably with some affording different cacti fruit, thorns, fibers, maybe even poisons?

There is a lacking of cacti... another item I've through of.  Normally that is all virtual, not something that can be used in game, but maybe there should be.

Path - Thank you for that list, that is helpful.

[Ath]

So lets focus a small bit... we are a fantasy world, and we are a game.  So we have to take game-play into consideration.  If we look at the area south of Allanak, the grassy area... what sort of plants would be fitting there?  With the plants that are already there, are there not enough to pick and utilize?  Of what we pick to be in that area, what would be more populace over others?

[Desertman]

So lets focus a small bit... we are a fantasy world, and we are a game.  So we have to take game-play into consideration.  If we look at the area south of Allanak, the grassy area... what sort of plants would be fitting there?  With the plants that are already there, are there not enough to pick and utilize?  Of what we pick to be in that area, what would be more populace over others?

I think we want to avoid making the south a bit too "herb/flower heavy". I like the contrast between available herbs/flowers/usable-for-cures-and-poisons plants you find in the north and the south. I like HAVING to travel across the world to get access to those things. It makes the world seem bigger and requires actual effort to do something.

If we put too many herbs/flowers/things like that in the south, then we just reinforce the issue of "resources not actually being rare" on this front, which is an issue already.

My point being that I think these areas would/should focus more heavily on plants that produce usable fibers like grasses and hardy vines, food bearing plants like cacti fruits and root/tuber producing plants, and water-bearing plants.

I would hope we avoid putting trees in the south at all costs for reasons related to "we just made getting wood stupid easy" unless we put them on islands out in the Silt Sea. In fact, that might be a great idea since it makes using silt skimmers actually more useful/more feasible for actual mundane tasks related to the economy. Maybe that's where all of that styrax wood comes from? It would be sufficiently difficult and costly so as not to make "getting wood in the south" child's play.

[Iiyola]

I think there should definitely be more plants to pick from, especially from the Arid Fields.

Such as:

- horta
- sweetbreeze
- numut vine
- pech grass
- ocotillo
- templar's heart

[Miradus]

So lets focus a small bit... we are a fantasy world, and we are a game.  So we have to take game-play into consideration.  If we look at the area south of Allanak, the grassy area... what sort of plants would be fitting there?  With the plants that are already there, are there not enough to pick and utilize?  Of what we pick to be in that area, what would be more populace over others?

I'd say grasses. It's a grassland. Arid regions are generally only populated by grasses and small, thorny things. If I look out my window right now I see mostly grasses, some prickly pear, and mesquite. There's about 3 agarita bushes to our 10 acres. Our annual rainfall here is ~20 inches per year.

From grasses come wicker but also various forms of clothing. A lot of Asian cultures utilize monocots like grasses and palms for everything from housing to clothing. Many grasses also produce seeds which are highly edible. As a hobby, I grow aloe. I've had it turn completely brown and withered and then when you give it some water it comes right back to life. Plants which grow in arid regions tend to be extremely hearty and hold on to their water and vegetation.

It's a fantasy setting, but it's low fantasy. You can't just My Little Pony it into Sweet Apple Acres without a reason, even if you do have legions of gemmers who can twiddle their fingers and fill up barrels. So I think what you have to decide is do you want this new "greening of the south' to be a natural thing or man-made.

If it's natural, then there's an encroachment of plants. If it's man-made then you've got agriculturists out there setting up moisture traps (to harvest moisture in the wind and condensation from the day-night cycle) and setting up irrigation methods.

Historically it seems like magic events have made some pretty big changes in Armageddon history, from the drowning of the halflings to the kank plague to meteorites. So technically you can do whatever you want. It only falls to you to decide how plausible and realistic you want to be.

[path]

I think we want to avoid making the south a bit too "herb/flower heavy". I like the contrast between available herbs/flowers/usable-for-cures-and-poisons plants you find in the north and the south. I like HAVING to travel across the world to get access to those things. It makes the world seem bigger and requires actual effort to do something.

If we put too many herbs/flowers/things like that in the south, then we just reinforce the issue of "resources not actually being rare" on this front, which is an issue already.

I strongly agree with this. What if a slower version of the food decay code were applied to plants? Would that change how you felt about it or just make the current situation even better?

Nauta - I have never explored the cure/poison making code, but having them too easily crafted sounds like an issue worth remedying.

Both types of peppers, the siltfruit and the hard blue vegetables are at the top of my personal list. Wild roses are one of the first things I think of, maybe because nostalgia, but they don't seem as thematically correct. I'd like them better in more mountainous regions. Yuca was spot on. I pulled up seven yuca one year and the following spring they were still just....alive. Like...roots exposed...greening up and growing on. So I replanted them. I respect a plant with that level of survivability. They put out stems of surprisingly graceful and stout white flowers.

I'd like edible cactus flowers, fat-petaled with a pleasantly bitter, green taste and, cooked, with a soggy flavor like mashed nuts. Maybe cactus that can be sliced to rounds and fried. Or maybe some like little pom-poms ...thistles! We need thistles!

It would be really cool if we could have some kind of plant code that allowed things to ripen and go from being inedible or poisonous to a wonderful treat.

The reason I'd like to see marilla trees is that they do sound like the sort've leafless thing you'd see sparingly in the desert. I could easily imagine their silhouette the color of aged bone against the sun-baked sands. We could just as well say their splintery wood is unusable for general crafts, but without kanks I wish sweet flavors were more available for cooking.

If that sounds like a bad deal, we could make up a saccharine cactus honey (either from the body or roots, maybe something cookable from a broken part of the plant) and have it be bright green for continuity.

The internet tells me, "Instead of leaves, most cacti have spines or scales (which are modified leaves)" Cactus scales sound like they could make a good tea or seasoning or we could grind them up to make something for sweeter dishes. That would be more like cactus dust. While we're on this, I'd like more ways to get high. Like, chew this and you'll be able to go on at least until dusk.

I know. I'm stuck on cooking. It's just where I'm at right now.

[manipura]

I would love it if plants produced different items (fruits or flowers, for example) based on what the month of the year was.  Instead of every plant always producing the same fruit or flower all the time.

I don't know if this is a coding headache though.

I think it makes more sense that plants in the south are hardier.  Not so many flowery, delicate blossoms.  Sturdy flowers that aren't getting battered by the heat and sand regularly yet still remaining "a delicate, dainty blossom".  Plants with thin dainty leaves don't strike me as suited to the southern climate while plants with those thick, waxy, almost rubbery leaves do.
Grasses, vines, and cacti are all realistic things to be in the south, I think.  Groves of lush fruit trees and bushes brimming with delicate flowers, not so much.

[Desertman]

I would love it if plants produced different items (fruits or flowers, for example) based on what the month of the year was.  Instead of every plant always producing the same fruit or flower all the time.

I don't know if this is a coding headache though.

I think this is a neat idea but in a season-less world like Zalanthas I'm not sure what the driving factor would be behind this.

Maybe the moons and their positions or something?

[path]

I would love it if plants produced different items (fruits or flowers, for example) based on what the month of the year was.  Instead of every plant always producing the same fruit or flower all the time.

I don't know if this is a coding headache though.

I think this is a neat idea but in a season-less world like Zalanthas I'm not sure what the driving factor would be behind this.

Maybe the moons and their positions or something?

Some flowers only bloom at night. That seems very fantasy desert to me.

[LauraMars]

Yuca was spot on. I pulled up seven yuca one year and the following spring they were still just....alive. Like...roots exposed...greening up and growing on. So I replanted them. I respect a plant with that level of survivability. They put out stems of surprisingly graceful and stout white flowers.

I grew up with Yuca plants, cactus, and sage bushes all over my yard (a really weird landscaping choice for a home in rural Minnesota)...all of these plants seem completely indestructible no matter what the weather.

[nauta]

Hi, popping in again!

I'd like to see items unique to Red Storm / the south introduced (see my list above: siltfruits, gahtle stalks, those powdery blue vegetables, heck why not wheat?).  AFAIK, these are all virtual / only sold by NPCs.  This would draw tribals down south, and thus create interaction.

What grassy area are you talking about?  The area around Yaroch (Arid Fields) is forageable for some pretty good roots and ocotillo -- all of which are found in the north as well -- but it doesn't extend very far.  South of that, according to the room description, it turns into non-grassy pretty fast.  West is the scoria, and west of that the room descriptions describe some cataclysm that has wiped out all plant life (including cacti) -- although there is a plantation pretty far west which I assume, granted who owns it, is a bit of a unique thing.

Right now in the southlands generally (trying to be vague to avoid IC details) you can pick: bimbal (lots and lots of bimbal), joybane, pech grass, spiny cacti, templar's heart, sivifi, kaya fruits, a variety of mushrooms, roses, fenrel, jherweed, red leaf, and smelly thilareyn berries.  The only really safe plants to pick are bimbal, pech grass, templar's heart, kaya fruits, and spiny cacti -- the rest are pretty far out there.  Unique to the southlands are: templar's heart and kaya fruits.

I've had a couple characters tasked with discovering the plant life in the Known, and I've kept a pretty good database of it -- so if you want to blast me a request, I can give out a few more details.

[wizturbo]

I think it would be more interesting if plant life was virtually non-existent in most places (given that Zalanthas has virtually zero rainfall) and abundant around sources of water.   

Having any vegetation in a place that hasn't had rain in a hundred years doesn't make a lot of sense even in a fantasy world, unless that vegetation feeds on mobile water supplies like animals or people

Game play wise, it would create scarcity outside of these critical locations, naturally concentrating the PC population around these areas.  Want to be a raider?  Hanging out at one of the few entrances to an Oasis is probably not a bad place to prey on travelers.  Then again, an Oasis is more likely to be under the protection of something strong, like a tribe or even the Allanaki military itself if it's in Vrun Driath. 

[manipura]

I would love it if plants produced different items (fruits or flowers, for example) based on what the month of the year was.  Instead of every plant always producing the same fruit or flower all the time.

I don't know if this is a coding headache though.

I think this is a neat idea but in a season-less world like Zalanthas I'm not sure what the driving factor would be behind this.

Maybe the moons and their positions or something?

There is already at least one sickness that is more common during a certain time of the year with the theory behind this increase in prevalence related to spores in the air and what area of the world you're in.
Even though the game doesn't have distinct 'seasons', I don't think it's really a stretch to think that things in the wilderness could have 'seasonal behaviours'.

I'm sure staff has already said at some point, fairly recently, that some of the animal life has different coded behaviours based on what time of year it is, which sounds sort of supportive of there being seasons.  Even if they don't have specific names.
If animals in the world behave differently during different times of the year (aka seasons) then I don't think it's a stretch that plants would have different behaviours as well.

[Socko]

Volcanic soil is actually quite nutrient-dense for plants: http://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/soil.htm

It would totally make sense if there were some opportunistic farmers and their slaves staking claims in the old volcanic region.  They would just have to drill down deep enough to get at the water (which is presumably down there, somewhere).

Similarly so, wild plants would probably take a long time to grow because they would have to work all that much harder to get to water.  Their root systems may be tough, fibrous, and deep, and their fruit could probably guard moisture jealously.

[Feco]

I would personally despise a bunch of vegetation in the south.  I prefer it to be a barren wasteland, and would in fact prefer it to be more barren and more wastelandy.  Realism be damned.

If I had to add vegetation, I would want it to be cacti and vines with scary spikes.  Some of them preferably dangerous.

If they had to have gather-able resources, I'd want them to be pungent, useless flowers.

If those resources had to be "nice," I'd make it water.  But I'd also have other water spots totally removed, in particular a certain water spot that is "hidden," but everyone and their mom visits twice a week.

Actually, I like this idea.  Keep the same amount of water in the southlands by taking it away from pools, adding it to plants, and giving those plants a bad attitude.  Newbs and squishies looking for water can buy it like the rest of the poor people (see: everyone) in Allanak.

I also like the idea of wood in the Silt Sea, but I guess we aren't talking about that.

[Socko]

While we're on the topic of silt, wouldn't silt be pretty good for plants, too?  I could envision a lot of stuff growing along the Silt Sea's shoreline, and maybe some weird bobbing pods on the Silt's surface.

[Ath]

So I agree, we need it to be low vegetation in the sense that it's barren and nasty.  I agree with you, don't think I'm looking to add anything further, as that isn't the questions.  So here... the idea is that it is a grasslands, a pretty nasty one at that.  So should be make these grasses harvestable, should we make a few more plants that are harvestable.  In reality, each of these rooms you're look are massive, big area of land... realistically there should be a potential for plants in each room.  We have a lot of players around these areas, and typical right now, plenty of useless plants down there.  Making plants useful in -some- way could be nice in my thoughts.  Useful should be non-virtual, unless should be virtual, do you agree?

Now onto the Scoria... yes, volcanic lands are very nutrient rich... but we're a nasty barren wasteland world where a volcano didn't really follow normal physics.  The scoria is more like a rocky wasteland.  Maybe down the like we could see more there.  Let's pull focus away from the scoria.

As for the desert, the sands... yes, there could be cacti, I think that is feasible.  The though though is a desert does have "patches" of vegetation at times.  So lets look at gameplay, some are saying they really want to keep it barren... which I agree, and right now, I think it is.  Now what if we could make it so that vegetation appeared randomly in areas, based on if it's a rocky wasteland, desert sands, barren grasslands, etc...  based on biome you could say.  Would this add more to the game you think?  Allowing for control of how many of these plants are in area at a time, would this be more feasible?  Or should we leave it at static placement?  Or maybe a mixture of the two?

I commend you all for staying on topic pretty much, this is greatly appreciated.

[Jihelu]

I think more plant life, either actual 'item' plants in the room or just mentioned in the descs, would be a nicer change.

[nauta]

Now what if we could make it so that vegetation appeared randomly in areas, based on if it's a rocky wasteland, desert sands, barren grasslands, etc...  based on biome you could say.  Would this add more to the game you think?  Allowing for control of how many of these plants are in area at a time, would this be more feasible?  Or should we leave it at static placement?  Or maybe a mixture of the two?

Ohhhhhh yes!  Please, please, please.  This would make plant gathering amazing, not just in the south.   You could have a big database of plants associated with a terrain, and only make one or two of them non-virtual on a given reboot.  You'd know that, say, jherweed is generally found in the sandy wastes, but you wouldn't know which room precisely it is.  Moreover, it'd give people a reason to go out more on hunts -- this hunt you didn't turn up any alecost, but maybe next hunt you'll find some.

As it is now, once you learn the spots and the animal spawn spots, it's pretty much done.  But if the plants aren't where you expect them to be, that would just make everything so much more dynamic and awesome.

[Dar]

Has anyone ever considered utilizing the UnderAllanak for vegetation?

The caverns have natural methods of trapping moisture from the air and with enough support of the gemmed under supervision of Jal and Rennik, entire mushroom plantations could be created. At the same time, the area is easy to control, so the exact nature of the gemmed participation could be unknown.

At one point in time, there was a senate meeting, where someone proposed to eradicate all gemmed. At which point a Black Robe showed up and was like, "We could do that. But the loss of revenue from the use of the gemmed will fall upon the Nobility and will make you all bankrupt." So the gemmed are being used for the city's infrastructure. It is merely done in ways that the general populace is not too keenly aware of. 

In all honesty, I think it would be better for the setting to limit the ease of vegetation in close proximity of Allanak since them having a good agricultural base feels soo non-Allanaki. Inventive methods like moss/mushrooms is okey. Purchasing foodstuffs from Red Storm that risk their lives by living near the shore is fine. But if we make Allanak stable in terms of agriculture in close proximity of the city, I think it will defeat the whole point of sand blasted defiled area that spreads around the Black City.

Food City
Bullet City
Spice City

And periodic armored car caravans inbetween.

[solera]

To be the most ecologically correct, "pioneer plants" would need to be introduced to terraform the area. A host of low-growing clovers and thorns, what we normally would consider weeds, would be introduced to fix nitrogen in the soil and break down scoria into actual soil.

Insect people eating plants can fix N as well.

Thornbush  windbreaks and shade providers  would be a good way as a first step to getting some sort of soil formation started. Or gumtrees.

Plants for scoria? Trama, scathecraw? 

[Socko]

I think one could gather some dry grasses for grass weaving projects -- grass baskets, mats, crude grass clogs, and the like.  You wouldn't even need very tall grasses, but some 'biomes' may have them, others would have low scraggy grasses.  Maybe look to arctic or mountain environments for inspiration.  The plants of those landscapes simply grow very slowly on poor soil, and the landscape is quite desolate.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Now what if we could make it so that vegetation appeared randomly in areas, based on if it's a rocky wasteland, desert sands, barren grasslands, etc...  based on biome you could say.  Would this add more to the game you think?  Allowing for control of how many of these plants are in area at a time, would this be more feasible?  Or should we leave it at static placement?  Or maybe a mixture of the two?

Ohhhhhh yes!  Please, please, please.  This would make plant gathering amazing, not just in the south.   You could have a big database of plants associated with a terrain, and only make one or two of them non-virtual on a given reboot.  You'd know that, say, jherweed is generally found in the sandy wastes, but you wouldn't know which room precisely it is.  Moreover, it'd give people a reason to go out more on hunts -- this hunt you didn't turn up any alecost, but maybe next hunt you'll find some.

As it is now, once you learn the spots and the animal spawn spots, it's pretty much done.  But if the plants aren't where you expect them to be, that would just make everything so much more dynamic and awesome.

Wholely agree with this! I was just about to comment on how both of the bimbal plants closest to Allanak manage to keep the ENTIRE population of healers in the city employed, along with whoever else was picking them. Would love to see some rooms weighted higher than others for a couple of the more interesting plants though. Other than that the idea sounds perfect.

[Ath]

Nothing I at all am talking about is adding plants for purposes of food... that's already found with forage.  I'm merely asking questions that I am looking for opinions on, that is all.  I am information gathering for something that may or may not be worked on, this feedback is helping that.  So don't get caught up on what could or couldn't happen, or changes that might be made... that's not what we're getting at here.

Vegetation exists via descriptions of room or virtual implications.  I'm trying to figure out if the existing placement of plants are really worth it?  I know of plants around Allanak, personally... I can't think of any uses for many of them.  Can any of you?  (You don't have to say what those uses are.)

And yes, that single bimbal plant... to think, maybe it's not in the same place as it was before.  So we've touched on another part of the information gathering... would it be a pain to actually go search for plants or would that add to immersion?

[dravage]

would it be a pain to actually go search for plants or would that add to immersion?

Absolutely. And it should be. Especially in a climate like this.

What would be cooler, is if there was some way those with the right skills were better at finding them out based on the landscape, or environmental conditions.

[Dar]

Wouldnt it be cool if plants would show up and dissapear, much like obsidian/salt/spice deposits do. Except perhaps on a more common/stable basis.

Add to it that any npc like scrab/chalton would be attracted to them, or at the very least scripted to graze there should they pass by/have the plant deposit unveil itself in the same room.  Maybe even have the chalton/scrabs scripted to search for that vegetation and unveil it that way.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Wouldnt it be cool if plants would show up and dissapear, much like obsidian/salt/spice deposits do. Except perhaps on a more common/stable basis.

Add to it that any npc like scrab/chalton would be attracted to them, or at the very least scripted to graze there should they pass by/have the plant deposit unveil itself in the same room.  Maybe even have the chalton/scrabs scripted to search for that vegetation and unveil it that way.

I was thinking something similar to the salt patches and would sprout up (nearly) randomly as opposed to forage spamming. I like the idea of animals being attracted to the different plants though. That's pretty cool.

As far as if it's a hassle... I suppose that all depends on how commonly each plant crops up. I'd imagine it would require some level of tweaking as it gets implemented to get it just right.

[Jihelu]

Change the code so instead of animals eating bodies instantly they eat plants instantly.
Done and done

Also the whole, random plants everywhere thing

[Ath]

would it be a pain to actually go search for plants or would that add to immersion?

Absolutely. And it should be. Especially in a climate like this.

What would be cooler, is if there was some way those with the right skills were better at finding them out based on the landscape, or environmental conditions.

That is a neat idea.  Not sure how possible it is, but I do like the thought behind it.

Change the code so instead of animals eating bodies instantly they eat plants instantly.
Done and done

Also the whole, random plants everywhere thing

Problem with this is that the NPCs are out there more often on a consistent basis than PCs, so all the plants would just get eaten up by NPCs.  Would be a more difficult thing to balance.  Though it would be interesting (as mentioned) to have NPCs that are herbivores to be attracted to plants.  Kinda off topic, but neat to say the least.

Let focus on bit more... so if we were to look at the Plant Life around Allanak, there are a few plants, all of them are static.  Some of the plants have use, but if I had to take a crack at it... I would say most of those plants are useless except for brewing.  I'm now saying we need to really add more plants, but look at what we have... and see what we can do with them.  Every culture finds a use for many of the plants that are around them, I could also see Zalanthians to be able to do this.  So if we gave plants a use in the area, this would make the current existing plants more often to be picked... do you think we would need to add more plants around Allanak if we gave these plants more of a use?

[valeria]

Well, there is already an IG use for grasses/sedge at least--baskets and mats.

I'd love to see plants that spawn randomly.  It would reflect things like those hordes of chalton eating them down and them growing back.  I wouldn't like to see the area around Allanak heavily plant-populated.  But if spawns were random, I'd love to see more desert-variety plants (I listed my choices already!).

[valeria]

Also, people in desert areas have been using woven grass mats to keep the dust down since prehistory.

[nauta]

Let focus on bit more... so if we were to look at the Plant Life around Allanak, there are a few plants, all of them are static.  Some of the plants have use, but if I had to take a crack at it... I would say most of those plants are useless except for brewing.  I'm now saying we need to really add more plants, but look at what we have... and see what we can do with them.  Every culture finds a use for many of the plants that are around them, I could also see Zalanthians to be able to do this.  So if we gave plants a use in the area, this would make the current existing plants more often to be picked... do you think we would need to add more plants around Allanak if we gave these plants more of a use?

I'd say: 'yes'.

In my limited experience, people have made up go-fetch quests for plants for a couple reasons:

1. Vanity (Moon Roses)
2. Teas.
3. Perfumes/Soaps/Incense/Seasonings.

I'd like to see more subguilds with plant-related stuff: floristry, basketweaving, dyeing.  In particular:

a) brew allowed to mastercraft (so we can mastercraft incenses and candles)
b) General Crafter given floristry
c) get rid of 'large bags' and make people use baskets!

You could also make hemp a plant -- there are hemp items -- and make bags craftable.

[Ath]

Also, people in desert areas have been using woven grass mats to keep the dust down since prehistory.

Would be great to see some PCs doing some crafts on this idea.

nauta -- Some great ideas there.  I've always liked Seasonings, and I know of Teas, but never really used it in game.  Huh, I just realized we don't have a helpfile on tea, the teapot goes to still helpfile, though we do have one on seasonings.  Might have to look at adding a TEA helpfile at some point.

[Ath]

Looks like this is puttering out, so I'll tag it here that I'll close this up by the end of the day if there isn't any other further discussion.  Thank you to those that have provided feedback to the many questions I have asked.

[Norcal]

Hi Ath. I was only just able to log on.

In arid environments you would find euphorbes (not true cacti yet like them in some ways). Some like Calotropis Procera and others have sticky milky sap that is slightly poisonous. Also trees can do well in arid environments, if they are slow growing and deep rooted.An example you might want to look at would be Balinites or some acacia. Some really cool trees with sap that can be used for lots of things. Think gum arabic.  Some of the oldest living things on earth are the Bristlecone pines up in the white mountains of California and Nevada. A few of these around the south would provide at least a bit of wood, although not much.

True cacti would also be good as well as lichen and hardy grass.

[nauta]

I'd like to add: if we encourage / expand the skills that use plants, we might encourage / expand the amount of interest in go-fetch quests for plants.  This would be two-fold: in some cases, it is far, far easier (and even cheaper) to purchase items from NPC vendors (e.g., dyes).  So closing that off would encourage things.  But also: giving more access to skills like 'floristry' -- I was thinking merging it with the 'brew' skill -- would also encourage more plant usage -- and more plant-based mastercrafts!

Here are the skills that use plants (AFAIK):

Dyeing.  In this case in particular it seems a lot cheaper and easier to just buy dyes from the market.  Perhaps one or two rare dyes get introduced, or make dyes more expensive in the market, encouraging more fetch quests.

Basketweaving.  This skill gets you your grass mats too.  I'd love to move away from everyone in game wearing backpacks and carrying large bags and towards more people carrying around baskets (on their heads even).  Backpacks are borderline 'sandwich' for me, hehe.

Floristry.  This gets you the basic material for dyeing, so I think if you have dyeing (General Crafter, e.g.) you should also get floristry.  It also is so close to Brew that it is sometimes jarring to be able to do so many amazing things with plants with Brew (soaps, incense, fancy candles, and cures) and yet be unable to dry a flower or grind a leaf up.  I also think perfumes (or attas) are amazing flavor props, but far too OOC onerous to make -- I had a thread on this a while ago.  I think more people would wear perfumes or attas if it were easier to make, but I could be wrong.

Cooking.  There are a lot of seasonings out there!

Brew.

There may be other skills -- I've never played an actual Merchant.

[Delirium]

Tagging on to what nauta said, I honestly feel that floristry and brew should be packaged together.

I like the idea of tough grasses, thorny vines, more de-virtualized cacti - I agree with the idea of making virtual plants harvestable, and with the sentiment that the south should still be the south. Inhospitable and sucked dry of lush vitality, but with hidden areas of surprising - if strange and poisonous - beauty.

[Ath]

Yeah, those skills are a bit odd, I will admit that.  Not sure what all can be done, but I'll tuck that bit away for later. 

I think I have most of the feedback that I need.  People really don't want to see "more" plants, but making the virtual, non-virtual, wouldn't be much of an issue.  Skills that are associated heavily with plants could need a look at, and making the harsh area around Allanak still harsh, would be good also.  Main thing is, don't break the balance of making Allanak area harsh... it's an unforgiving terrain.  So food objects should be hard to come by from said plants, but plants that could be used in other fashions would be useful to have in the non-virtual.

I also got some feedback via the request tool, so that was nice to see.  In all, I think this thread was very successful.

[Cabooze]

Y'all should organize a major world event, where a bunch of new plant life starts growing in different places. Like..  Discreetly, but it'd be noticed.

And then open submissions for the new plant-life. Y'all could make some of this plant-life unnatural and elementally inclined... Like a fruit or flower that constantly burns.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd love to see multiple kinds of cacti. In real life there are tons of different cacti.

Sorts with fruit that might prick you while picking. Cactus fruits that have a bunch of tiny little needles that are annoying as fuck to get rid if you touch them without gloves. The sort that have to be burned off before eaten, and can be made into jam.

Skellebain cactus when eaten after boiled.

Cactus spread across the ground that you can accidentally step on or fall into(roleplaying wise). Cactus so thick in some areas that you can travel in that direction.

Cactus with all sorts of neat flowers, like in Cenyr.

Cactus that looks like it had drinkable water but just makes you puke and dehydrate.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Cactus that looks like it had drinkable water but just makes you puke and dehydrate.

Plants that look alike to the untrained eye (ie anyone not a ranger, grebber, or outlaw) with differing effects would be a neat addition.

[thewolfen3]

I would not mind a few new sorts of flowers or such. They are undervalued in roleplay these days I think.

[Ath]

I do agree that we need to look at Cacti, as you would think they'd be around Allanak.  All sorts of great feedback, this has been really good and I appreciate it.  I am going to close up this thread now, but I will likely be doing a couple more, so keep your eyes open for it.  The next one is going to help us look at some of the Jobs around Zalanthas, those little things that allow you to make a few coins.

Thank you again for keeping this thread on topics and also providing us with some valuable feedback.  There is no promise any of it will ever be used, but it is valuable none the less.  The idea here is that we are going to be making an effort to bring up topics that are of interest to staff, not necessarily current (or even future) projects or plots, that will help us get a general idea of what is of interest to the players.  You guys have stated we don't take much feedback from the player, this is an effort to change that, and I think this a great first step.