Locked Apartments

[Delirium]

Reiloth is talking about the difference between player mindset and PC mindset, which I happen to agree with.

Sometimes you let (or make) your characters do things you disagree with, because it tells a better story.

Sometimes that gets you killed, and sometimes it doesn't.

[Desertman]

I didn't find your argument pretty good, by the way. So if there is a pretty good argument, maybe i'll change my opinion.

The only argument was, "If your PC wouldn't do it, then don't do it.". That seems like a pretty good argument for a roleplaying game.

The converse of course is, "If your PC would do it, then do it". Which is basically what i'm saying. I as a player might be like 'Don't do it Jim, it's a trap!", but my PC will still do it.

Pretty good argument too, huh?

Yeah absolutely.

I'm reminded of the time I lost a ranger I loved because I opened the bag of flash powder that I as the player KNEW was flash powder heh. (Given to me by a Guilder hired to kill me.)

I am holding it and going, "Damn't, I know this is going to give me a boom and I'm going to die, but fuck, my character has no idea.".

I laugh about it now, but at the time, it was painful.

[Dunetrade55]

I think I've killed people in apartments more times than I've been apartment killed, which is pretty rare. Usually someone had to be someone I'd trusted who I KNEW was fucking me over and put me in a position where my PC absolutely HAD to be rid of them with no chance of escape. Not every player has such strict requirements, nor should they. "I just wanted their stuff" is a completely valid argument, no matter how much it offends my delicate sensibilities. I've been apartment killed for less than THAT even, hard as it may be to believe. Was it legit? Yes, the characters involved in it had their own motivations and were acting on them. Is it a way I would ever allow one of my PCs to act? No, but that's just my personal preference. The only complaints I'd have would be from an OOC perspective on how this may effect plotlines, and the only answer to my complaints is: Welcome to Armageddon.

As others have said, apartment killings happen everyday IRL. Some of you are less trusting of other people, myself, I weitgh risk vs. reward and actually DO follow complete strangers in bad areas into places more private, it's not like there's a cop on every street corner, and the local culture is such that if the cops DO come around asking questions about a straight up murder in the streets, no one is going to be talking about it. At that point, whether I get knifed in private or in the open streets is like splitting hairs. I'm all FOR making the streets of Allanak less safe, as I believe it would lead to more realistic roleplay because you'd realize maybe that person whose life you're ruining may catch you slpping, and adjust your behavior accordingly, rather than RPing like, "Well my base has an invincible forcefield" like so many of the godmoders in the sandbox would do with their GI Joes.

I want violence in the streets to reflect the theme and setting, and to provide more plots that it takes away. When someone kills someone in an apartment, it makes the story like, welp, haven't seen Amos in a long time, wonder what happened to that guy? If risk vs. reward were tweaked in the streets, you might better understand WHAT happened to Amos when you find his stab-wound riddled corpse attracting flies in a gutter. I know for a fact it DOES happen IG in the streets, just, it's so heavily skewed toward risk there that many will come to the logical conclusion that an apartment is the best place for it. Murder is going to happen IG, it's not going away, and it's not just going to explode with sheer random buffoonery just because it's easier to do it in the streets now. Also it'd make people a little less afraid of going IN apartments with people.

The only reason I support being able to unlock the door from the inside, and this is a big reason for me, is not to avoid PKs, but for OOC concessions to guests my PC may be having over. I'd hate to lock someone in to keep outsiders out and then my computer or connection dies, or some RL emergency tears me away, which isn't my IC intention, and my PC is just standing around like, duuuuhr. So I'm torn on the issue, slightly leaning toward not in favor of a change on how locks work from the inside.

[Dunetrade55]

Plus, it just makes a much more awesome storyline that so and so was observed fucking around with the wrong crowd and a mysterious figure cut them down in broad daylight and fled the scene. It's more effective that way, sends a message to other players "Don't fuck with X", where X is the last person or group the person was observed fucking with, and thus leads to fewer future PKs, as, fewer players will fuck with X and so will not need to be disposed of. You don't get that with a quiet kill that leaves no trace or rumor. You don't get that panic like "Fuck, Amos was my best friend! What, what if I'm NEXT?!". You just get a long time of "contact Amos" and continuing to fuck with X, until you fall for some honeypot trap and get diced.

[Lizzie]

I think I've only had one of my PCs killed in an apartment once. I reported it not because she was killed, but because they abused the code of psionics to get it done. Basically - back in the day, if you tried to way someone and they weren't logged in or dead, you'd get a different message than if their mind was just hard to find. So the killer tried to way my character's boss, and discovered his player wasn't logged in. And therefore they knew it was safe to PK me because I wouldn't be able to way my boss to get help. That was one of the reasons the code for waying was changed, but I still didn't get a resurrection. It was also over 10 years ago.

I've played characters who got assassinated lots of times, and only that one (that I can remember) was ever ganked in an apartment. So from my perspective, this really isn't -that- much of an issue. If they need to kill your character, they'll figure out a way. I've PKed only a few characters total, and I don't think I killed any of them in an apartment. Only one or two right out in the open, the rest behind closed doors, clan doors, behind curtains, or in a cave (where the victim could easily have fled out).

Sure it'd be nice to be able to open the door from the inside without a key. However, I can see it being -very- easily abused. Follow someone to their apartment, knowing they need to log out for the day. They log out, you grab everything you need, don't even need to have the lockpick skill. Just open the door and leave with all their loot. I dunno - I don't really like the ease in which that can be done, with this kind of change.

[Dunetrade55]

You know, a thought just occurred to me. The reason apartment killing MIGHT be investigated, is if someone habitually does it. THEN people might whisper things to the person at the desk. Nenyuk would likely be quite interested in, you know, not having their property damaged by corpses, blood, and what have you. At which point I'd expect them to wait for you to leave, inspect your place, and if it's not up to code, waiting for you to come home and being like, hi, we heard you like apartment killing, so we put some apartment killing in your apartment killing. Then taking all your shit and renting the place out to a less messy tennent.

[Reiloth]

Right, but there are plenty of people that have been killed in apartments (some of which are talking here, some of which aren't). So I would call your 'killed only one time in an apartment in 10+ years of playing' an outlier.

Also, I feel that part of the problem here is psionics. While that is assuredly a lame scenario (Contacting PC's boss to see if they are around, knowing they aren't, so timing your attack for that moment), part of the 'fear' and 'perceived problem' here is that victims can easily get away and way Soandso to let them know someone tried to kill them.

It reminds me of gumshoe novels in the 40's, and more modern crime that has to account for things like cellphones, the internet, and google. There was a certain mystique to crime before the internet/cellphones/etc, because it was easier to get away with murder, the trail of mystery was more intriguing because the search for knowledge and answers was half if not more of the mystery. A film like 'Chinatown" would be boring if Jake could just look up the history of the DWP and who ran it, and why Ellis Mullwray was in cahoots with Mr. Cross. The pursuit of knowledge can be the most interesting parts of these stories.

I mention this an analogy because in a low-technology world, advanced psionics are obviously at odds with it. To be able to communicate with someone across great distances with perfect clarity and instantaneous results is highly advanced. So we're basically giving everyone a cellphone that has 911 on speed dial. So I can understand why someone waits to see if your friends are around before they murder you. Just as apartments are a work around for crime code, waying your friends to see if they're around before murdering you is a work around for psionics. It's legit, IMHO.

It's a sticky pickle.

[Reiloth]

You know, a thought just occurred to me. The reason apartment killing MIGHT be investigated, is if someone habitually does it. THEN people might whisper things to the person at the desk. Nenyuk would likely be quite interested in, you know, not having their property damaged by corpses, blood, and what have you. At which point I'd expect them to wait for you to leave, inspect your place, and if it's not up to code, waiting for you to come home and being like, hi, we heard you like apartment killing, so we put some apartment killing in your apartment killing. Then taking all your shit and renting the place out to a less messy tennent.

I think Staff does this already, at least i've encountered it with serial murderers in apartment complexes. I've had things like blood drips echoed in my apartment (From the apartment above) and things like that. They end up being hooks to PCs to investigate or report, putting it back in the PC world rather than keeping it purely virtual/amongst NPCs. Maybe the PC does nothing about it, and doesn't report it to the authorities. Maybe they tip off a soldier to it. Maybe something happens from it, maybe not.

I do think it would be funny if your rent suddenly got raised. They don't ask questions, so you don't ask questions.

[Dresan]

The first time I was killed in an apartment, it was by cheaters who are now banned AFAIK. Second time, I knew it was a trap. It was a lame and obvious trap but I still went for it. I said why not. ICly my character was hoping for people to work with.

Again I don't think killing people in locked rooms or apartments is wrong, however I think killing someone else in YOUR own apartment should have some consequences. Sorry, that would be a lot of blood on the floor in a world where cleaning water is expensive.

This one time though i was attacked openly somewhere in the city. They didn't get me, but even if they had it was heart thumping experience. There were people screaming bloody murder too.  They sure took a risk and made the entire attack fun instead of insta-gank with barely any RP despite the levels of karma involved with a place the victim has no hope of escaping. Its why I want to encourage people to attack more in the open and wouldn't mind giving them the abilities needed to get away themselves after a failed attempt.  It tends to create more fun and more RP for more people, without the lame after taste of apartment ganks, or OHK backstabs.