Author Topic: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?  (Read 4663 times)

Barsook

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Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« on: August 11, 2016, 12:13:12 PM »
There, as requested.  I will let you guys loose. And mods, feel free to move the derail here.  Thanks.

Riev

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 12:21:11 PM »
Any Highborn, because they're better.

A piece, MAYBE two, from an Aide or higher House Employee, so long as their Highborn allows it.

A well off GMH Merchant might have a piece or two to show affluence.

Indie Merchants are welcome to wear it, but also welcome to the backlash from "trying to look like someone beyond their station".



I'd think this tends more towards "silk shirt" or "a fine pair of silk gloves". If you're wearing a silk necktie, or a bundled silk rope... you're trying to LOOK affluent. Someone is going to find out just how affluent you are, so you better be prepared.
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Molten Heart

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 12:37:53 PM »
People who own silk, or at least they are more capable  of wearing silk than those who don't own any silk.

Patuk

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 12:43:24 PM »
Allanak has no law against Tuluki entering the city. You can totally be fined for being Tuluki.

Allanak has no law against wearing a hood or a facemask. A templar can absolutely fine you for skulking about all shifty-like.

Allanak has no law against commoners(or foreigners, or slaves..) wearing silk. Lord Borsail can definetly tell you that it's strictly forbidden anyway.




How is this so hard to grasp?
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Desertman

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 01:14:30 PM »
Anyone who can afford to wear it and who has the clout and financing to cover their ass when they do it.

I had a breed ex-Byn Sergeant once who wore a full set of nothing but white silk. He was a breed ranger who liked to "relax on his days off".

I had a couple of people give me shit about it. I invited them to have a deeper discussion about it outside of the gates if it was truly bothering them. They declined my offer for further conversation on the topic.

I wore that silk until the day of that character's death when he rode off The Shield Wall fleeing from a gith.

Basically, anyone who is badass enough to wear silk can wear silk.

/thread
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Barsook

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 01:38:40 PM »
One time I did have a character wear silk but no one said anything to him and that was in Allanak.

path

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 01:43:00 PM »
This isn't just about coded laws and who can afford it, or even who can back it up with muscle.

This is about shaping the game world and expressing what we want to see in it.


I think people in the merchant houses can and often should wear silk to a quantity befitting their station. Not new hires, and very rarely hunters, but crafters, master crafters, psuedo agents, merchants, agents. All of them. If I meet a merchant/agent of House Kadius or even Kurac, I think it's rad if they're heaped in silk. In this way they can also act as living models for the wares of the house. Not only is it good business sense, but the merchant houses are protected by their own wealth and power. Secondarily it's a merchant house perk, of which there are really too few.

Otherwise, I agree - not servants, but aides, advisors and concubines...even personal guards within a House should certainly be allowed to wear silk at their employer's discretion. It makes the roles more exciting and the characters more imposing and readily respected. Those are good qualities for your workers to inspire.

I worked for a noble two years ago who allowed my aide to dress as she wished as long as she was in house colors. But no silk. When she was switched to another noble who returned her to the house uniform, it was pretty disappointing. If she'd been given or earned status enough to wear silk, she would have been psyched. What I'm saying is, these little head games and perks are awesome.

Within noble houses your employees are a reflection of YOU (isn't it a bit awful?) and what they wear is also a reflection of how much you esteem them.

The above also in my opinion applies to the aides of the templarate.

I think there's a concern that this can diminish the standing of the nobility, but I personally don't find it to be so. The true fun of the nobility is in their playstyle. They have something NO ONE else can wear. Hauture, entitlement and utter, sneering disregard for the unwashed masses.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 01:51:19 PM by path »

Reiloth

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 02:07:14 PM »
Yes, I think you have the right of it Path. On the surface, Commoners cannot wear Silk. If some nobody walks into Red's Retreat and gets picked out by a Noble, or a Templar, they can make their life hell simply over the fact they are unaffiliated and wearing silk. Could a Noble do this to a GMH employee? Maybe, if they don't like them, they can certainly give them shit about it. They're a Noble after all. Rules are more like 'guidelines' to them, and they can easily be broken once or twice without drawing ire from their House overall. A Templar? They are sort of like drivers in Los Angeles, they make up their own rules and only follow the ones they agree with (or their Red Robe masters dictate to them, and even then, maybe?).

So in essence -- The less 'clout' you have, the more these sorts of laws or ideas of laws apply to you. If I had to put anyone at the bottom of the pile, it would be Elves. Even if they are the 'most connected' and 'most bro down with Templar X', anyone, and I mean anyone, can take them down a notch. They might be literally caught dead wearing silk.

But as you move up the social ladder, you will likely find that wearing silk isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. If you are a known Assassin for the Guild, for instance, do you think people (even Nobles) are going to strut up to you and tell you all that Silk is outlawed?

It isn't as simple as 'silk is outlawed on Commoners in Allanak'. It's another means of oppression, basically, and a means for Nobles and Templars to show their inherent status by being able to wear silk and not have to think twice about it.

More importantly -- There isn't going to be some NPC Soldier checking to see if you have silk like they do for spice at the gates. It's entirely a player enforced concept. Just like there's going to be some Templars more hardnosed about Spice Smuggling in the city, and some Templars who are like 'whateves', there are going to be Nobles/Templars that make a bigger or lesser stink about Commoners wearing Silk, and it's entirely situational.

I could see it being used as a completely bullshit reason to arrest someone and get them beaten up (A Noble pays off a Templar to have someone arrested for wearing an egregious amount of silk in public. Everyone would be like "Oh man this is bullshit!" but what are you going to say?)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 02:15:30 PM by Reiloth »
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Desertman

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 02:08:38 PM »
I think it depends on the noble and the employer in question.

I don't think this needs a blanket observation or unofficial (and certainly not official) rule in place.

Some nobles and employers like to let their underlings wear silk.

Some don't.

I've seen both and seeing both seems to work just fine.

I guess that's my opinion on it.

It's fine how it is and doesn't need any change, official, or even unofficial ruling beyond people saying, "I like it personally or don't like it personally.".
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Reiloth

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2016, 02:15:54 PM »
I think it depends on the noble and the employer in question.

I don't think this needs a blanket observation or unofficial (and certainly not official) rule in place.

Some nobles and employers like to let their underlings wear silk.

Some don't.

I've seen both and seeing both seems to work just fine.

I guess that's my opinion on it.

It's fine how it is and doesn't need any change, official, or even unofficial ruling beyond people saying, "I like it personally or don't like it personally.".

Yup, pretty much.

What I think is kinda bullshit is people saying "Well I don't like that, so i'm going to wear silk anyways, and probably be butthurt if someone says something to me or if a Noble/Templar fucks with me over it".
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

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Molten Heart

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2016, 02:23:03 PM »
When someone wears silk, it says to me that they have money and they don't work. Crafting while wearing silk clothing, or even fancy clothing items should have a chance to be damaged when someone is crafting, be it a stained flag or a ripped flag or something like this. This would help reinforce that silk is for rich people who don't do labor, manual or otherwise.

All clothing is not created equally, even silk clothing. There is cheap silk clothing and there is fashionable and highly expensive silk clothing, they don't even have to be silk, IMO, because it's all a superficial social construct created to communicate and convey social status. I think it should matter more on how fashionable, fancy, ornate and expensive one's clothes are. To bring it down to whether someone's clothing is made of silk or not is rather one dimensional and doesn't account for the reasoning behind the idea of fashion dividing social classes.

Sure silk is a good indicator of social standing and affluence (because it's a rare northlands material and it's expensive) but the idea of fashion being a distinction of social status is more about clothing cost; how opulent, fancy and intricate they are; how rare the clothing is; and who made the articles (name brand designers are better than non-name brand designers).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 02:47:01 PM by Molten Heart »

Desertman

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2016, 02:43:23 PM »
I think it depends on the noble and the employer in question.

I don't think this needs a blanket observation or unofficial (and certainly not official) rule in place.

Some nobles and employers like to let their underlings wear silk.

Some don't.

I've seen both and seeing both seems to work just fine.

I guess that's my opinion on it.

It's fine how it is and doesn't need any change, official, or even unofficial ruling beyond people saying, "I like it personally or don't like it personally.".

Yup, pretty much.

What I think is kinda bullshit is people saying "Well I don't like that, so i'm going to wear silk anyways, and probably be butthurt if someone says something to me or if a Noble/Templar fucks with me over it".

Truth.
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Cayuga

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2016, 03:10:47 PM »
I think that wearing silk, if allowed, is less of a problem in Allanak than wearing unfashionable silk items. If you're wearing a silk bra, halter top, short silk, sarong, in public, the gameworld should react.

However, I think that ignoring the culture that has existed for as long as I have played, and now staffed this game, does the game a disservice. Allanak is, as other posters have mentioned, an oppressive place. There should be reactions to what people are doing, or wearing, saying, or affiliating with. Silk can, and should be, a part of this.

On another, lighter note: at least it makes marks easier to pick out for pickpocketing and burglarizing, yeah?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 03:14:47 PM by Cayuga »
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Reiloth

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2016, 03:14:10 PM »
I think that wearing silk, if allowed, is less of a problem in Allanak than wearing unfashionable silk items. If you're wearing a silk bra, halter top, short silk, sarong, in public, the gameworld should react.

However, I think that ignoring the culture that has existed for as long as I have played, and now staffed, this game, does the game a disservice. Allanak is, as other posters have mentioned, an oppressive place. There should be reactions to what people are doing, or wearing, saying, or affiliating with. Silk can, and should be, a part of this.

On another, lighter note: at least it makes marks easier to pick out for pickpocketing and burglarizing, yeah?

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bardlyone

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2016, 03:37:30 PM »
Sure silk is a good indicator of social standing and affluence (because it's a rare northlands material and it's expensive) but the idea of fashion being a distinction of social status is more about clothing cost; how opulent, fancy and intricate they are; how rare the clothing is; and who made the articles (name brand designers are better than non-name brand designers).

This part I agree with, the idea of randomly destroying clothes that cleaning at all already has a chance to randomly destroy, not so much.

For me, the draw to silk is less because it's fashionable or expensive and more because (as someone who IRL often has sensory issues with regard to clothing cut/texture/fabric), well, silk is softer and more comfortable than shit like leather or other things, to the touch.

Also... everything that path said.

I think the single most irritating 'you can't has silk moment' I've had in game was that it was a noble's employee I had years back, who had a different noble throw such a fit about it to her boss that even though she made it herself and had full permission to wear it, she had to take off her favorite piece of clothes, because he was tired of hearing the other noble bitch about it. I've actually never had someone complain or take issue with an indie pc of mine in the south who was wearing it. Only a noble employee. Which was goddamn mindboggling, considering it was with express permission.
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Jihelu

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2016, 03:48:11 PM »
Heres a question:
What if you used two different clothes during the creation of some shirt/robe and had the inside be silk based, so it would hardly be visible, and the outside some lesser quality but more durable item?
Would that qualify under the 'don't wear silk' thing?
Would it be up to the players to notice/give a damn about it?
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Talia

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
I think the single most irritating 'you can't has silk moment' I've had in game was that it was a noble's employee I had years back, who had a different noble throw such a fit about it to her boss that even though she made it herself and had full permission to wear it, she had to take off her favorite piece of clothes, because he was tired of hearing the other noble bitch about it. I've actually never had someone complain or take issue with an indie pc of mine in the south who was wearing it. Only a noble employee. Which was goddamn mindboggling, considering it was with express permission.

Welcome to Allanaki politics. Sounds like the system is working as intended.
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Armaddict

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2016, 04:11:51 PM »
I think this is an overpoliced issue.

Silk is neither too expensive, nor unavailable for the average commoner.  It's prominently displayed in the shops that are put right in next to everything else, and for prices that almost any employed person can afford.  If you want less people wearing silk, then we need to, as a population, make a case for Kadius to stop making so much money off of silk to commoners.

I have no qualms with aides wearing all silk.  I have no qualms with rich people wearing silk.  That's what making money is for, is to move up in social station, and by the very nature of Allanaki politics, having more money -does- give you more station.

I think the average noble will definitely -not- feel threatened by a commoner wearing silk, the same way a grand merchant house will -not- feel threatened by the small tiny merchant group selling similar goods.  GMH makes millions of obsidian per year; a small group making 5 thousand a month is a piddling affair.  A noble has millions of political currency points; the silk-clad commoner is a piddling affair.

The only thing about it is that you, through decking yourself out in such attire, are also asking for attention.  Can you stand up tall under that attention, or will you be knocked down pegs until it's not worth it?  A noble who dislikes that character will use it as a basis to find more things to dislike.  A templar needing coin can use it as an indicator that this person should be a contributor to their fundraiser and they aren't yet.  A mugger having a hard time looks at them as an easy target.

So, in essence, I don't think this needs to be some sort of 'rigid social rule'.  I just think you need to realize what silks mean...you won't be okay if you just buy them and expect it all to be hunky dory afterwards.  But if you buy them, wear them, and are completely capable of acting above the normal commoner station, you should be just fine.  But I agree the pettiness that ensues over it can be downright distasteful to watch, when it's blatantly an attempt to enforce something that isn't really particularly enforceable by the average person.  I'd much rather see it result in real things, like I mentioned above, than pettiness.

Example?
"I see you've been doing well for yourself.  I think that means you're ready to contribute more to the city that has granted you opportunity for this success you've had.  Here are some things I'd like from you, now that you've come along.  Otherwise we can sell off some of those pieces so that you can continue to contribute."

is so vastly superior to

"And she's wearing silk.  Who the fuck does she think she is, wearing silk?  We should strip it all off her and put her back in her place!  She's not an aide!  She's just rich!"

that it's unreal.  The latter sounds purely like jealousy, not social status.  The former is social status.

Edit:  Oh, and I agree that the fashion is more of a big deal than the fabric.  Scanty clothes should earn discomfort and scorn and various other negative attentions, depending on the crowd.  Except in the Gaj.  I don't think the Gaj gives a fuck as long as scanty clothes leads to whoring.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:15:00 PM by Armaddict »
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bardlyone

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 04:14:13 PM »
Everything armaddict said: +1.
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Reiloth

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2016, 04:26:12 PM »
I don't think anyone is arguing for it being a rigid social rule. It's a pretty fluid social rule. Depending on the Noble/Templar, it'll be used against a Commoner, or ignored because it's beneath them.

I haven't really seen anyone do the second example, mostly the first example you used. It's a means to an end. A smart Noble or Templar will, well, be smart about it and use it to their advantage, just as they might use smoking spice to their advantage (which is illegal). A stupid Noble/Templar will not make friends fast be being a blunt shovel when an awl is needed.

Allanak gets a rap for being UNSUBTLE and BARBARIC, but i've seen more subtle/shhh/TulukRP in Allanak than I think people credit. The political system in general can appear on the surface rough and broad, but it's quite intricate. These are one of those intricacies, that requires imagination and nuance on the player's part to use to their advantage (or to the disadvantage of others).

Saying 'Well i'm going to wear silk because it feels better' is absolutely fine. Just don't get those silk underwear in a twist if some Noble/Templar decides to make your life worse for it, because they feel like it, and they don't like you. You don't need much of a reason as a Noble or Templar to make a Commoner's life miserable -- Doing something like this just gives them a flimsy reason to expand upon. It calls attention to yourself. If you're the kind of person where it doesn't really matter if you draw attention to yourself (you're the Aide of Lady Soandso, or a Merchant in Kadius), it probably won't matter. Just as wearing a hood in public draws attention to yourself. It isn't illegal to wear a hood, but it might draw suspicion, just as wearing silk might simply draw the attention of a nutty Fale Noble who has a vendetta against silk-wearing commoners.

I think we all pretty much agree that it isn't a hard and fast rule, nor should it be changed or codified that way. Like many things political, it is something that serves the rich and powerful, and oppresses the poor and unrepresented. Some Commoners with sway will wear silk without needing to think about it, unless if they run into their Noble's rival who happens to be drunk or just vindictive and makes them take off all their silk in public to humiliate them (Means to an End).  This just happens to be one of the many things Nobles/Templars do to 'keep the common man/woman down', in my book.

It also doesn't really seem overpoliced, at least in the actual game. Sure we're discussing it on the GDB, but that doesn't reflect the actual game world in the slightest. I've rarely seen a Templar or Noble use this as a means to an end against a Commoner, at least I can't recall anything in public for a good long while. Saying it's overpoliced is like there are Noble Gestapo going around sniffing at everyone's clothing to see if it's made of silk. I don't think that is the case.

Also, saying that silk is "neither too expensive, nor unavailable to the average commoner. It's prominently displayed in the shops that are put right next to everything else, and for prices that almost any employed person can afford' doesn't discount the social phenomena surrounding silk and why it is considered a tool of oppression by the ruling caste. Black Americans might argue that sitting in the back of the bus, or the front of the bus, doesn't make a big difference, but to White Americans before the Civil Rights Movement, it did. To Commoners, even despite this sort of loose cultural understanding, they might think to themselves...What's the big deal, it's just silk? But the 'big deal' is purley that by whim, a Noble or a Templar can decide to make your life miserable if they choose to, silk or no silk.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:36:42 PM by Reiloth »
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

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Armaddict

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2016, 04:33:54 PM »
Apologies, my intention wasn't to put words in anyone's mouths.

This topic in particular seems to always build into a black and white sort of view of who can and can't, and I wanted to emphasize what you were talking about...there are people who are going to do it, who have earned the ability to do it, and should do it.  And then there are the others who wanted to do it because silk, and don't seem to realize that rising in social status isn't about wearing more clothes; it's a fight.  You fill scrape, bow, scratch, bite, kill, conspire, and -earn- your rise, or you'll be ground under the boots of those willing to do that to you.

Wearing silk is an invitation to this life.  I hope plenty of you take the invitation, because that's the fun.
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Desertman

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2016, 04:34:04 PM »
I like the idea of Kadius having more to do.

It is no secret (is it?) that I consider Kadius to be one of the least inspiring and least "fun" Houses in the game.

I like the idea of Kadius getting to deal with more than just the handful of nobles, aides, and merchant family that happen to be in the game at any time....especially now that Tuluk is closed.

I want Kadius getting orders for silk from those more wealthy/daring independents as well without those independents getting fucked to the point that all independents just stop placing orders for "fancy things".

I already feel Kadius is pretty meh.....a lot of that has to do with the fact most of what they sell isn't "needed", but is mostly just "wanted", and even then usually only by a handful of people.

Let's not limit their buyerbase further by overdoing the "kill them if they look too fancy" thing.


I'm completely onboard with nobles/Templars/fancy-people fucking you for "going over your level" if they have a political reason for wanting to fuck you. But let's not make them fucking you over your "fancy level" a commonly accepted thing in its self.

Basically, if you are going to shit on me for wearing diamond earrings, do it because you ALSO hate me for whatever reason, and I just gave you enough of a "reason" to latch onto to fuck me.

Let's not make it common place and acceptable to ensure nobody but a very tiny portion of the playerbase gets to actually order/wear/utilize the entire purpose of one of the more prevalent Houses in the game.

If you kill a single one of my commoners for wearing a pair of silk socks, I can assure you I will never place another order for them or anything like them/on their level with any character, and I'm not the only one....and that will spread like a virus pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:39:38 PM by Desertman »
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The Lonely Hunter

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2016, 04:34:20 PM »
Riev and Cayuga nailed it, imo. Unfortunately people have been allowing their liberal RL views to bleed over into how they perceive Zalanthas and over time, as new people start playing, it is perceived as acceptable.
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path

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2016, 04:50:06 PM »
Agree. No extra rules about this, please.

I do think it's become a more rigid concept in game. Not unlike that of all the nobility wearing house colors all the time.

Cayuga:
I haven't seen this happening! Or maybe I just see it happening a lot less? Like once about fifteen years ago I was playing a templar's aide and we were sitting in the Trader's and he gave my pc this embroidered leather halter and thong he'd gotten during a trade negotiation with Blackwing and suggested she wear it. In a really sleazy way. I remember you, sleazy templar. Actually, now that I think about it, there were no fashion docs at that time.

Good story, path.

Who are these bad (presumably girls) showing too much skin? Shame on you, ladies! Where is your modesty? On that note, we should reexamine the role of kilts in the south. I know I've seen them coded as southern, but I absolutely remember then being a northern thing. The modesty agenda would seem to underscore this. Speaking of modesty, it would be pretty rad if something were written up to encourage scandalous clothing in Luir's. It would add some nice flavor to the game, am I right?

The Lonely Hunter: I disagree with the "piece or two". If they're a child of a merchant house or a long term noble house Advisor, I'm basically delighted to see them head to toe in it.  I find Riev's interpretation a shade too strict.


bardlyone

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Re: Who Can Wear Silk in Allanak?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 04:53:31 PM »
It also doesn't really seem overpoliced, at least in the actual game.

I would hazard to guess it's because I'm not the only one who's had an experience like what desertman describes below.

If you kill a single one of my commoners for wearing a pair of silk socks, I can assure you I will never place another order for them or anything like them/on their level with any character, and I'm not the only one....and that will spread like a virus pretty quickly.

If it's not ANYMORE, it's probably because there was a period of time where it was so overpoliced, that the above is EXACTLY what happened.

I remember when there were Bynners in silk veils. As recently as 2012-2013 or so. So it wasn't the days of people sitting in the bars with halflings or anything like that.

If there's a reason you rarely if ever see it on people that don't wear metal the past few years... well... I'm not allowed to name specific pc names on the boards, but I have a real vivid idea of why.
Quote from: Maester Aemon Targaryen
What is honor compared to a woman’s love? ...Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.