Author Topic: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison  (Read 3373 times)

Dresan

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Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« on: August 10, 2016, 07:52:58 PM »
I've mentioned this in another thread but I wanted to make a new thread for this idea.

I think every bladed weapon that isn't bludgeon should be able to "backstab" and hold poison. The only RP requirements should be size/weight (controlled by allow_poison, allow_backstab flags).

The reason is mostly for variety and to allow more freedom when using weapon types. It would be nice to see slashing/chopping weapons specifically designed to hold poisons and to be designed with concealed attacks in mind.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 07:58:45 PM by Dresan »
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Synthesis

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 02:20:46 PM »
Agreed.

Every weapon with a point or edge should be poisonable, regardless of size.

Every weapon 5 stones and under, excluding non-sharp types, should be usable for backstab.

Backstab messages should be modified so that either every weapon type has its own set of backstab echos, or gets a generic echo that makes sense.

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bardlyone

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 03:45:02 PM »
I think the gif below sums up all my feelings about the above ideas pretty concisely.

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Armaddict

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 03:54:30 PM »
I'd rather see the poison rework -first- to make potent poisons less available, then I'd be okay with this.

Until that point, nuh-uh.
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Synthesis

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 04:41:05 PM »
I'd rather see the poison rework -first- to make potent poisons less available, then I'd be okay with this.

Until that point, nuh-uh.

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Reiloth

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 04:44:07 PM »
I think perhaps the concern of the relative 'weakness' of a stabbing weapon, compared to the relative 'strength' of chopping, slashing weapons, etc.
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Desertman

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 04:44:50 PM »
Also on board with seeing edged weapons added to the "Backstab" category.

I'm also completely and fully in support of changing the name from Backstab to Critical Strike.

I also want to see the messages for Critical Strike changed to be more vague to allow more interpretation and roleplay in regards to how you are going about critically striking your opponent.



If I want to aim a slice of my scimitar at someone's throat as my critical strike, I should be able to.

If I want to aim my dagger at the gap in their armor in their armpit instead of the stock "Behind between their ribs" message, I should be able to.




I DO think that daggers/knives should give you a bonus to critical strike.

I just don't think they should be the only allowed options.


I wouldn't even mind opening it up to axes with more of a negative.



(I don't think it's much of a balance issue. Even with Master Backstab in my experience Backstab is pretty underwhelming. Throw is a lot more dangerous many times over IMO.)


Also, we need that poison rework to make the rare and more dangerous poisons less accessible.

Whoever thought to make that one type super cheap and readily available........What were you thinking?

My assumption was some staffer was playing an assassin at the time and wanted a cheap source but forgot to remove that thing from that place when their PC died and so it has lingered there.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:47:13 PM by Desertman »
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Inks

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 04:47:53 PM »
Making backstab more dangerous is a bad idea. I have played a reasonably dangerous assassin called  Zuun a couple of years ago and he only had good strength. I only ever dropped someone (NPC included) in one backstab twice, though with the follow up attacks is what is relied on to drop a target usually.

 If instead of a shitty halfsword I had been wielding a massive two handed spear it would have changed a reasonably dangerous assassin into a god of death, they all would be. I love the assassin class even though it is codedly inferior to ranger by far, but the planning of assassinations would take about two seconds with thia change "I'll equip the warspear and the follow up attacks will drop him gg".
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:51:41 PM by Inks »
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Desertman

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 04:49:24 PM »
Making backstab more dangerous is a bad idea. I have played a reasonably dangerous assassin called  Zuun a couple of years ago and he only had good strength. I only ever dropped someone (NPC included) in one backstab twice, though with the follow up attacks is what is relied on to drop a target usually.

 If instead of a shitty halfsword I had been wielding a massive two handed spear it would have changed a reasonably dangerous assassin into a god of death, they all would be.


If they are a Master Assassin there is a pretty good argument that they should be.

IMO as it stands you are a lot more dangerous of you go Warrior Slipknife.
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Inks

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2016, 04:55:05 PM »
I would disagree in the context of backstab and delay and also this would benefit slipknives even more due to alternate weapon skills.
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Synthesis

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2016, 04:56:47 PM »
Making backstab more dangerous is a bad idea. I have played a reasonably dangerous assassin called  Zuun a couple of years ago and he only had good strength. I only ever dropped someone (NPC included) in one backstab twice, though with the follow up attacks is what is relied on to drop a target usually.

 If instead of a shitty halfsword I had been wielding a massive two handed spear it would have changed a reasonably dangerous assassin into a god of death, they all would be. I love the assassin class even though it is codedly inferior to ranger by far, but the planning of assassinations would take about two seconds with thia change "I'll equip the warspear and the follow up attacks will drop him gg".


Did you miss the part where we said only small weapons should be usable for backstabs?
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Inks

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2016, 05:03:12 PM »
Perhaps. What does small mean though? Code wise I quite like the limitations of the poison code. It is pretty potent otherwise and I am not sure I would like every single weapon (small or whatever) poisonable.

Icly there isn't really a justification for non poisonable weapons but balance wise I think there is.
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Armaddict

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2016, 05:45:12 PM »
Uhm.

If you don't see why it's kind of a drastic shift for very strong, fairly available poisons to be applied to whole bunch more weapons, making it more viable for those who didn't want to sacrifice stun damage or overall damage for ability to reliably deliver poison, then I don't know what to say.

As is, if you want to use poisons, you know you will have to have some amount of skill in a certain area.  Take that away and there are no tradeoffs for it.  But if you weaken poisons that are available, make it harder to stockpile these dangerous poisons, then it becomes a moot point.

Hence...after we make strong poisons much harder to put into use, as I think we should...I'm in support.  But only in that order.
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Dresan

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2016, 08:22:04 PM »
Its kind of why i suggested backstab_allowed and Poison_Alllowed flags for weapons so that the staff can decide what should be used to backstab/poison based on  RP design, damage value, weight, size or theme instead of the actual coded attributes. This could mean that future weapons could be created more that allow to carry poison, or that can aren't too heavy and large (eg. obscenely damaging) that would impede a swift critical strike if that is an issue.

I don't think the rare poison thing is relevant because there are still quite a number of good weapons you can currently that poison with already without issue, they just all happen to be that one weapon type with makes things kinda bleh. So if poison is your thing, well guess you are stuck using that one type at the moment. I don't think the weapon type is all that bad at all in terms of damage to be honest, seems as effective as anything else.  All that said, i agree rare poisons should be rare and an adventure to find.

As for the name backstab...how about we call it assassinate? In order to better illustrate that you are trying to kill someone instantly; whether thats a knife to the back, slitting their throat, running them through with your sword or beheading them with your axe?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:48:11 PM by Dresan »
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Jihelu

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2016, 08:49:21 PM »
Assessing a weapon while having the backstab skill should allow you to tell if you can backstab with it.
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Armaddict

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2016, 08:57:55 PM »
I will note that poison can already be applied to slashing weapons.  Just not every slashing weapon.  So something like this 'Can_be_poisoned' flag already exists, or it exists via size parameters.
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Dresan

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2016, 09:01:11 PM »
Just because you can poison a slashing weapon, doesn't mean it will apply the poison to your target using slashing attacks.

Thinking those weapons can be used in another way.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 09:18:07 PM by Dresan »
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Inks

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2016, 09:05:43 PM »
Assessing a weapon while having the backstab skill should allow you to tell if you can backstab with it.

Do you play assassins or slipknife? It already works this way. You can use any stabbing weapon to backstab.
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Lizzie

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 09:39:42 PM »
Assessing a weapon while having the backstab skill should allow you to tell if you can backstab with it.

Do you play assassins or slipknife? It already works this way. You can use any stabbing weapon to backstab.

Unless it's been changed, not all "piercing" weapons are also "stabbing" weapons. If it's a piercing weapon but NOT a stabbing weapon, then you won't be able to use the backstab skill with it.
Assess does definitely let you know whether or not your piercing weapon is also a backstab weapon, if you have the backstab skill. You're right about that.
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Inks

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2016, 11:05:31 PM »
Sorry if I wasn't more clear, that is what I meant.
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Majikal

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2016, 11:34:39 PM »
I like the idea of backstab being more of a critical strike and being viable to backstab with more than one weapon style.

However, Armageddon works off a damage dice system (think DnD) and I'm fairly certain that stabbing weapons are skewed and balanced with backstab in mind. Other weapons are not. Backstabbing with a two-handed sexy axe of damage +7 would likely make assassins the most broken creation in the game.
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Jihelu

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2016, 11:37:24 PM »
I thought it only told you if it was a piercing/stabbing weapon?
Not "you can backstab with it"
If more weapons were made to be able to backstab this would be a reason for it.
"Oh I have a cool sword"
assess sword
"This is a slashing weapon"
"This weapon can be used for backstabs/assassinations"
That would be what I would want.
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Dar

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2016, 12:13:13 AM »
I'm really not a fan of the idea about allowing every weapon to use for backstab/assassinate/whatever.  The difference in power between some of these weapons is vast, add to it that a vast majority of backstab victims are unarmed, and it just becomes too quick and too sudden and too easy.

When a warrior crit hits someone on the neck and that 40 hp damage drops them to -20, killing them instantly, that warrior can rp it out as if he's severed their head, or cut their throat, or whatever else.

Assassinate is assassinate is assassinate and yes, you should be able to kill someone with broken glasses like in god father, but thematic cloak and dagger assassins should be using fucking small knives.

Synthesis

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2016, 03:06:00 AM »
The most powerful mundane piercing weapon I ever owned was a dagger, so the "power level difference" is entirely debatable.  In fact, that dagger was only marginally less effective than some two-handed swords.

Of course, it was a dagger I got off a gypsy  ::).  But...there are plenty of halfswords that have high damage crits.  They just don't seem that way very often because most warriors either roll with slashing or chopping or bludgeoning, because of the regional starting bonuses or stun damage, and most "piercey" guilds just suck total balls forever and never get to the point where they're rocking the head and neckshots.

On topic for the backstab element:  there aren't many chopping or slashing weapons that are 5 stones or less that are so out-of-range powerful that they'd be unbalanced.  I'd say if you put them stone-for-stone against similar halfswords, they would generally be less powerful, honestly.

On topic for the poisoning element:  it's kind of gamey to say "oh, well, the downside of using poison is that you have to train your favorite weapon -and- train piercing in order to deliver the poison," when there isn't any other good reason.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 03:33:55 AM by Synthesis »
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Dresan

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Re: Weapon type freedom with backstab/poison
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2017, 02:17:55 PM »
With the new changes to poison and cure code, I just wanted to resurrect this idea. I feel the way poisons are going, it is sad to restrict it to just piercing weapon type.

Similarly still feel it sucks to be restricted to weapon type with backstab.

Since the discussion here was solid, didn't want to start a new thread on the subject. (Hopefully people won't get too angry because of that)
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