Author Topic: Getting at History ICly  (Read 4576 times)

BrokenRomance

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Getting at History ICly
« on: May 25, 2016, 04:41:24 PM »
Okay, so...



Sure we've all seen the Thrain Ironsword thread by now, and what a horrible mess it became. So what I'd like to do is talk about how you can RP in the IC trying to get at historical information.

My personal theory is you can just claim you heard about such and such from a vNPC and ask a bard to talk about it, or wish up and talk to the tavernkeeper or something like that.

Main thing I'm getting at is it's clear that there are people who think you can, and even have, roleplay a historically aware PC. I want to hear about how to go about this and you know, maybe someone new will make a character and do this. It's fun. I can't do it right now, but hell I might do it later myself.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:50:37 PM by BrokenRomance »
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 04:48:04 PM »
The Chronology Page lists common knowledge. Your character doesn't have to know all of it, but if you want them to know that Thrain existed, or the ebb and flow of warfare between the City States, you can.

It's the details where things get tricky. Your average PC probably does not know the names of many specific individuals involved in any historical event. They might know of Samos, or Isar, or Kun, and what they generally did, but probably don't know their sdescs or specific activities.
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valeria

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 04:59:17 PM »
So what I'd like to do is talk about how you can RP in the IC trying to get at historical information.

My personal theory is you can just claim you heard about such and such from a vNPC and ask a bard to talk about it, or wish up and talk to the tavernkeeper or something like that.

Main thing I'm getting at is it's clear that there are people who think you can, and even have, roleplay a historically aware PC. I want to hear about how to go about this and you know, maybe someone new will make a character and do this. It's fun. I can't do it right now, but hell I might do it later myself.

It's entirely possible to play a PC who wants to learn historical information.  It can be quite a fun character goal, though it's by no means easy.  It usually requires playing some social form of the game.

Way #1: You can befriend people who have access to historical information or play characters who have access to historical information.

Source: Played a templar.  Had access to the virtual library in Allanak.  Was able to research things for people by asking staff.  Found out some cool thing while researching.

Other Source: Have played merchants and nobles and saw how many cool historically oriented books there are in the game.  Learned a lot of cool historical stuff.  Passed some on to flunkies because sharing information is cool.

Another Source: Played in a southern clan that offered cool access to some historical stuff to people who were interested.

Way #2: There are also tribes with oral history traditions.  Clan staff is usually willing to help you out if you're really into the history of the tribe.

Source: Played in tribes, asked staff for some information, was able to learn things and make songs.

Those are just the things I've done personally over the years.  I'm sure there are other ways to RP trying to get (and ultimately receiving) historical information.
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flurry

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 05:36:53 PM »
If your character is recounting historical information, keep in mind how long ago things occurred. For example, your character may know something about the Copper War. However, since it was more than 80 years ago, there are very few, if any, Copper War veterans still around.
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream." - Shirley Jackson, The Haunting of Hill House

wizturbo

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2016, 03:05:48 AM »
Valeria's suggestions seem spot on to me.

Erythil

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2016, 03:39:18 AM »
As a newbie I had a lot of success playing my first character, Asil, getting at historical knowledge.  When he hit the grid I didn't even know that REDACTED could REDACTED!

First up, I gave him a backstory that let him be well-educated -- he was from a prosperous tribe of desert traders, who had northern citizenship, allowing him to come into the world ignorant but still part of society.  They had paid for him be tutored in history and linguistics so as to be a successful merchant, thus allowing me to make reasonable use of information on the history page, so I knew where to start asking questions.

Also, I knew the Dark Sun setting so I made some insights into how the world was probably working behind the scenes.

I cozied up to the templarate, who were a major source of knowledge, to learn a lot about the wider world and who was who and what was what, meeting a lot of remarkable characters like Wisp and Raleris and so on early in their careers.  Some of them even liked me.  I worked for multiple noble houses and the Jihaens and got to see a lot of restricted docs this way.  What I quickly learned is that most sponsored characters were only marginally more informed than I was, and would pretend to know more than they really did in order to get me to do what they wanted.

So I left and joined an organization that allowed for greater personal agency -- Kurac -- and worked my way up the ladder until I had enough power to actively buy information, and send out people to acquire more of it.

By the time I got brutally murdered I was able to write and read and had a pet beetle from another dimension.  But I still don't know shit about the Lord of Storms, 2 sponsored roles later.  Somebody tell me about THAT guy.

Lizzie

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2016, 07:37:34 AM »
There's lots of history you can learn about ICly.

But there are also things you can't learn about ICly, mostly "ancient" history. The things you can't learn about: Anything that characters would have put into a biography - because biographies didn't exist then. Anything that had been written in books that had been subsequently lost in game crashes or junked by players. For instance, I have a text file of a couple of books that one of my literate PCs had read, about things that happened years ago. I know that the books had been taken by someone and moved, and the game had either crashed or gone down for maintenance - and those books now no longer exist. There might be other accountings of certain events but these particular ones were written by the person that these events happened to.

Sort of like the Thrain Ironsword situation - pre-dating biographies, pre-dating read/write (or from the perspective of anyone who -could- read/write once the skills were implemented). The only way you'll learn some of this information is outside the game. In official documents on the website, help files, history files, submissions pages on the GDB and submissions pages on the arm.org website.

added: I also have a copy of a bug that revealed IC info, and the bug was fixed, and the IC info is no longer in existence. It's old: Used to be if you crafted a certain mundane length of cloth into a mundane pair of pants, you'd get a scroll instead of the pants. That scroll was a marriage contract between Pearl Terash and someone, I can't remember who. The marriage never happened, pretty sure the original scroll was intended to be used as leverage in a different deal between Borsail and Tor.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 07:40:25 AM by Lizzie »
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Xalle

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2016, 08:00:24 AM »
Anything that had been written in books that had been subsequently lost in game crashes or junked by players. For instance, I have a text file of a couple of books that one of my literate PCs had read, about things that happened years ago. I know that the books had been taken by someone and moved, and the game had either crashed or gone down for maintenance - and those books now no longer exist. There might be other accountings of certain events but these particular ones were written by the person that these events happened to.

Would you send copies into us please? It's a damn shame if things like this get lost forever from the game world or bank of lore we can tap into, especially because of a technical blip.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2016, 08:30:56 AM »
Anything that had been written in books that had been subsequently lost in game crashes or junked by players. For instance, I have a text file of a couple of books that one of my literate PCs had read, about things that happened years ago. I know that the books had been taken by someone and moved, and the game had either crashed or gone down for maintenance - and those books now no longer exist. There might be other accountings of certain events but these particular ones were written by the person that these events happened to.

Would you send copies into us please? It's a damn shame if things like this get lost forever from the game world or bank of lore we can tap into, especially because of a technical blip.

If I can find it sure. It's either hidden somewhere in the deepest recesses of my hard drive, or on one of a dozen flash drives in an obscurely-named subdirectory. Last time I looked at it was over a year ago :)
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nauta

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 09:15:24 AM »
added: I also have a copy of a bug that revealed IC info, and the bug was fixed, and the IC info is no longer in existence. It's old: Used to be if you crafted a certain mundane length of cloth into a mundane pair of pants, you'd get a scroll instead of the pants. That scroll was a marriage contract between Pearl Terash and someone, I can't remember who. The marriage never happened, pretty sure the original scroll was intended to be used as leverage in a different deal between Borsail and Tor.

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Desertman

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 10:38:21 AM »
Gimme that sweet widespread literacy.

The ability to find someone's diary on the rare occasion and get a glimpse into their life and their thoughts alone would make this worth the undertaking.

More player driven and player concocted histories available to other players is just icing on the cake.
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Erythil

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 04:16:21 PM »
I still think it would be good for the game if lifesworn aides of Advisor rank got literacy.

Desertman

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 04:41:05 PM »
I still think it would be good for the game if lifesworn aides of Advisor rank got literacy.

.....Mine did, but it was many RL years ago.
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Case

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 04:41:16 PM »
There's a lot of stuff on chronology that wouldn't be well known and most people are horribly uneducated. You basically gotta pursue the knowledge IG in some manner because even an educated PC has only a subset of what a player may know. I can't be the only player who knows of some crazy historical stuff that would be totally inappropriate for even a well educated char to know without learning again IG

Reiloth

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 06:31:34 PM »
There's a lot of stuff on chronology that wouldn't be well known and most people are horribly uneducated. You basically gotta pursue the knowledge IG in some manner because even an educated PC has only a subset of what a player may know. I can't be the only player who knows of some crazy historical stuff that would be totally inappropriate for even a well educated char to know without learning again IG

I feel Case, here. I guess i've played for a long time and have had some PCs who learned some cool stuff, esp. related to Tuluki history and so on. But every new character I made, I had to separate the knowledge of me (the Player) from the knowledge and knowledge capacity of the PC I was playing. So, I might have one Bard PC in Irofel who learned X Y Z about Tuluk, and then another Bard PC that would know fuck-all about that stuff, and not even be interested in learning it.

I guess the blurry line for me (when I see the need for historiez and secret pastz) is how much of it is the player, and how much is the PC? In the case of Thrain, it seemed like the Player for the most part (people say it's over 15-20 years ago, c'mon, I wanna know). That makes sense to me, and actually I couldn't come up with a compelling reason why people shouldn't know that stuff OOCly. It's not only so long ago, but it seems so irrelevant, that how could it do any harm? But where it starts getting weirder is when people are pressing for information IG that their PC doesn't know of, wouldn't know of, and may not be interested in...When it seems really OOCly motivated, basically. "What do you know of Soandso?" That sort of takes me out of it.

Otherwise, I personally wouldn't mind seeing Armageddon drift further from the Dark Sun IP and have literacy more available to higher-end Commoners. In a game that is all text, it seems unfortunate that the 'inner writer' within most of us can't get their jollies writing in the game. It seems like one of our greatest strengths on ArmageddonMUD (It's a text based game, people who play ArmageddonMUD like text based games obvi, and the descriptive power of the word). Yet, only a handful of PCs at a given time have the ability to read and write.

I know some of my fonder memories were of my PCs that either learned to read by legitimate reasons, or knew how to read and write from the get go. It was very cathartic to add to the game lore via IG books.

Slight derail, but I feel that the 'History' and 'Chronology' of Zalanthas could be better served by having an organic history woven in the game, by PCs that witness what is going on around them. Access to this knowledge, and the ability to create it, could still be limited (Rich Commoners with connections, Merchant Houses, people who gain the right by bribery or favors), but not as archaic (and illegal) as it is now.
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Erythil

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 07:13:58 PM »
I still think it would be good for the game if lifesworn aides of Advisor rank got literacy.

.....Mine did, but it was many RL years ago.

When my noble had an Advisor within the last couple years, I was told that this would never happen, I would be murdered for teaching them, etc.  So current lore would seem not to permit this.

BadSkeelz

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 08:54:40 PM »
They told me I'd never get to type '>kill baby' in game but this year I proved them wrong.*

What I'm saying is staff attitudes change.


*"They" and "Them" may be hallucinatory.
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whitt

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 10:35:06 PM »
They told me I'd never get to type '>kill baby' in game but this year I proved them wrong.

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Armaddict

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 11:26:58 PM »
I would like to say that as a Tor Noble instructed to teach military history in the Tor Academy...I had precious little resources granted to me and I essentially had to rely on my past in-game experiences and twist them into a suitable military lesson.

Perhaps, if Tor is opened up for such things again ever, we should consider a consolidated thread of 'significant' historical moments such as this siege, but with appropriate watered down facts and tilting towards the city-state.

Also, perhaps the gist of it isn't that it's impossible IC, but that most of the people who know certain things are generally in characters who can't know said things.  In essence, it's far more clunky than just going to a discussion board and saying 'Look, this is a famous event that happened x years ago, can someone please fill me in what the fuck happened because I wanna hear arm stories.'

Makes me think of Mansa's old storytimes, really.
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Majikal

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2016, 06:43:43 PM »
Zalanthans don't have ipads and xbox's to entertain them. Stories are numerous, plentiful, cheap and enjoyable. Lots more of history is being retold to children before bed, debated at the dinner table, spoken of in the taverns and sung about than is represented in the game. vnpc's and backgrounds are a great place to add a dash of these stories to your pc if you're familiar with them oocly. There's nothing to say your great gram gram didn't pass on some first hand knowledge of what it was like living through the copper war. Obviously do this responsibly and thematically but when players bring real history to the game through spoken word I think it's great for everyone.

I did a lot of this with my Tuluki Sergeant for those that got to know him, geography, history etc and I had a blast when one of the Tuluki templars played along with his interest of history. Lots of old forgotten lore about Tuluk that few would get to hear about (especially with it being closed now).  I hope our efforts were appreciated.  :'( Damnit, now I miss Tuluk again.
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BrokenRomance

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2016, 06:59:22 PM »
Zalanthans don't have ipads and xbox's to entertain them. Stories are numerous, plentiful, cheap and enjoyable. Lots more of history is being retold to children before bed, debated at the dinner table, spoken of in the taverns and sung about than is represented in the game. vnpc's and backgrounds are a great place to add a dash of these stories to your pc if you're familiar with them oocly. There's nothing to say your great gram gram didn't pass on some first hand knowledge of what it was like living through the copper war. Obviously do this responsibly and thematically but when players bring real history to the game through spoken word I think it's great for everyone.

I did a lot of this with my Tuluki Sergeant for those that got to know him, geography, history etc and I had a blast when one of the Tuluki templars played along with his interest of history. Lots of old forgotten lore about Tuluk that few would get to hear about (especially with it being closed now).  I hope our efforts were appreciated.  :'( Damnit, now I miss Tuluk again.

Now that's the answer I think we all need.
All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
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Trying to find, trying to find where I've been.

Reiloth

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Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2016, 12:22:46 PM »
I would like to say that as a Tor Noble instructed to teach military history in the Tor Academy...I had precious little resources granted to me and I essentially had to rely on my past in-game experiences and twist them into a suitable military lesson.

Perhaps, if Tor is opened up for such things again ever, we should consider a consolidated thread of 'significant' historical moments such as this siege, but with appropriate watered down facts and tilting towards the city-state.

Also, perhaps the gist of it isn't that it's impossible IC, but that most of the people who know certain things are generally in characters who can't know said things.  In essence, it's far more clunky than just going to a discussion board and saying 'Look, this is a famous event that happened x years ago, can someone please fill me in what the fuck happened because I wanna hear arm stories.'

Makes me think of Mansa's old storytimes, really.

I kind of want Allanak to be closed and Tuluk to reopen. Tuluk 2017.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6146
Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 03:29:10 PM »
I would like to say that as a Tor Noble instructed to teach military history in the Tor Academy...I had precious little resources granted to me and I essentially had to rely on my past in-game experiences and twist them into a suitable military lesson.

Perhaps, if Tor is opened up for such things again ever, we should consider a consolidated thread of 'significant' historical moments such as this siege, but with appropriate watered down facts and tilting towards the city-state.

Also, perhaps the gist of it isn't that it's impossible IC, but that most of the people who know certain things are generally in characters who can't know said things.  In essence, it's far more clunky than just going to a discussion board and saying 'Look, this is a famous event that happened x years ago, can someone please fill me in what the fuck happened because I wanna hear arm stories.'

Makes me think of Mansa's old storytimes, really.


GET THIS HEATHEN OUTTA MY ACADEMY.
I kind of want Allanak to be closed and Tuluk to reopen. Tuluk 2017.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Getting at History ICly
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2016, 05:44:26 PM »
Zalanthans don't have ipads and xbox's to entertain them. Stories are numerous, plentiful, cheap and enjoyable. Lots more of history is being retold to children before bed, debated at the dinner table, spoken of in the taverns and sung about than is represented in the game. vnpc's and backgrounds are a great place to add a dash of these stories to your pc if you're familiar with them oocly. There's nothing to say your great gram gram didn't pass on some first hand knowledge of what it was like living through the copper war. Obviously do this responsibly and thematically but when players bring real history to the game through spoken word I think it's great for everyone.

I did a lot of this with my Tuluki Sergeant for those that got to know him, geography, history etc and I had a blast when one of the Tuluki templars played along with his interest of history. Lots of old forgotten lore about Tuluk that few would get to hear about (especially with it being closed now).  I hope our efforts were appreciated.  :'( Damnit, now I miss Tuluk again.


I'm fine with this, done similarly with my own PCs on occason. Just be suŕe the answer to "how does your PC know this?" is ICly believable.
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