Author Topic: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...  (Read 11251 times)

Jingo

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2016, 07:27:58 PM »
I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.
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Armaddict

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2016, 07:34:10 PM »
I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.

I don't think it gears towards that player, it gears players towards that mentality.  The breakdowns of requirements listed here are...pretty staggering.  I can see it being done, but holy shit, the measures taken to actually reach these goals are NOT likely o be reached using solely 'this is how it should be done' methods.

Disclaimer:  I've played 110 or so characters, I think.  I've only made more than 10k on a handful of them.  Making money just to make money has always been...boring, to me.  So maybe those numbers are attainable in whatever way, but to me, that just sounds like a lot of tedious things whenever you log in.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 07:44:28 PM by Armaddict »
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whitt

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2016, 07:36:09 PM »
I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.

I'm maybe missing the massive coin requirement to start.  It's only 500 coins to get a Registered Merchant License.  Then you have a Year to come up with 2000 coins to license a warehouse.  Seems like something any casual player could do.
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boog

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2016, 07:46:46 PM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned because I'm currently on my phone..m but social structure, prejudices, etc, should all apply. No elf MMH should be able to attain Atrium level anything, at least not in public. In fact, I think it should be harder for them to start, since everyone proclaims money is easy to come by in game. (Not mem I've never had a character with more than 5k at a time, so y'all are just crazy people. Heh.)
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wizturbo

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2016, 08:23:08 PM »
The coin requirements for making a clan are easy.  In fact, coming up with the money is probably the easiest part of the entire process.

In Zalanthas, money doesn't amount to much in terms of power.  The Greater Merchant Houses have by far the largest amount of wealth in the Known World, by an enormous margin, but what exactly does that buy them?  They don't have any substantial magickal power, they don't have any substantial military power, and they have basically no direct political power themselves.  In essence, the Greater Merchant Houses are servants to the cities.  They operate in Allanak because the Templarate and the Nobility let them operate.  They make them pretty things, or they build the armor and weapons for their Legions.  They act as property managers for the real estate in the city, that the city lets them operate but could take away anytime they felt like it.

To make a successful Minor Merchant House, the only way it will work is if something inside that greater power structure supports the organization.   Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 08:26:50 PM by wizturbo »

Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2016, 08:26:32 PM »
Quote from: Taven's Summary of Desertman's Points

Current Problems

  • Only mastercrafted items can be in a shop
  • Shopkeeper status does not grant secret recipie status, making things reproduceable
  • The shopkeeper guard NPC does not actually protect you, but is indifferent

Proposed Solutions

Grant shopkeeper level basic clan status:
  • Only one coded leader
  • Only clan abilities to recruit/dump
  • Only coded ranks leader and underling

This would:
  • Enable orderable NPCs
  • Enable secret crafts



Here's what I think about the problems you have outlined:


Only Master Crafted Items for Shopkeepers

This does seem like an odd requirement to me that doesn't make sense. If you want to put items in a shop and set your price, you should be able to. Short of having your own team of Mastercrafters, it would take a good deal of time to actually get enough stuff to sell.

I think changing this to allow more could also generate more conflict. Sure, you CAN sell that doohinky cheaper then that other shop, but they may not like it. Of course if you were good enough at it, you might be able to put other shops out of business, even. I guess most of that is virtual, but it could involve the players more, depending on how it was animated. Food for thought.



No Secret Recipies at Shopkeeper Status

I don't know that this one bothers me. Isn't it incentive to make something unique and special about your crafts?

For example...

A polished, golden-finished wardrobe would seem to be made from a set of golden finish and a baobab log

If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.



A Shopkeeper Guard Does Not Protect You

I don't think they're supposed to protect you. They're there for the shopkeeper. This does not bother me.

Protection should be accomplished ICly.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 08:33:39 PM by Taven »
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Desertman

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2016, 08:44:10 PM »
Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.



Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.


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Desertman

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2016, 08:46:33 PM »

I don't think they're supposed to protect you. They're there for the shopkeeper. This does not bother me.

Protection should be accomplished ICly.

Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly.


If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.


This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 08:51:54 PM by Desertman »
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Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2016, 08:51:48 PM »
Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.

If Terash went through the system or not is irrelevant to the points he's making.

  • It got sponsorship by a Large And Powerful Organization (TM)
  • It found a unique niche ICly by offering something nobody else did
    • It provided an OOC service in filling a new niche, thus helping secure staff support

    The point is that all of the above are ways to help an MMH actually accomplish it's goal, by making it something tailored to their interests.
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Desertman

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2016, 08:56:40 PM »
Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.

If Terash went through the system or not is irrelevant to the points he's making.


  • It got sponsorship by a Large And Powerful Organization (TM)
  • It found a unique niche ICly by offering something nobody else did
    • It provided an OOC service in filling a new niche, thus helping secure staff support

    The point is that all of the above are ways to help an MMH actually accomplish it's goal, by making it something tailored to their interests.
More importantly it filled a "gap" that needed to be filled/someone wanted to fill on an OOC level for a specific sect of the playerbase in that part of the world.

If they were required to actually pay hundreds of thousands of coins in bribes, taxes, and license fees over the course of years and their source of income was, "Training aides.", and they actually depended on that to make said money....whew, I'm not entirely certain that would make its way through the system.

Still, you are correct, getting a good sponsor and people to back you along the way after finding a service people want to exist is of course the best way to go.

My point was that doing it "exactly" the way Terash did it might not be the best course of action for actual success via the system in place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 08:59:20 PM by Desertman »
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Armaddict

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 08:58:13 PM »
The coin requirements for making a clan are easy.  In fact, coming up with the money is probably the easiest part of the entire process.

In Zalanthas, money doesn't amount to much in terms of power.  The Greater Merchant Houses have by far the largest amount of wealth in the Known World, by an enormous margin, but what exactly does that buy them?  They don't have any substantial magickal power, they don't have any substantial military power, and they have basically no direct political power themselves.  In essence, the Greater Merchant Houses are servants to the cities.  They operate in Allanak because the Templarate and the Nobility let them operate.  They make them pretty things, or they build the armor and weapons for their Legions.  They act as property managers for the real estate in the city, that the city lets them operate but could take away anytime they felt like it.

To make a successful Minor Merchant House, the only way it will work is if something inside that greater power structure supports the organization.   Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.

...I think comparing Terash to this process is a little off, considering that was done under a completely different version of staffing that allowed for subjectivity and off-the-hip decisions.  That is not to degrade it, that's just saying that it was a completely roleplayed endeavor from start to finish, versus this being an actual documented process that hasn't been changed much from it's creation, which suggests that you think it was made perfectly on its first go and this sort of feedback is actually more akin to complaining.  But in essence, the difference between the two is that the first allowed for arbitrary 'Okay, that makes sense' or 'Sure, this should be enough' judgments versus hardset goals that are set up as milestones and barriers from advancement.  If Pearl Terash had to actually -find- enough PC aides in training to make the money for today's goals, she wouldn't make it.  Hers was run off of virtual business and political favors, thus pointedly setting it aside from the PC business platform of today.

Likewise, your statement that Major Merchant Houses have no real political power is pretty much outright wrong.  They may not have seats on senates or anything, but they very visibly affect politics with that massive amount of wealth, as is evident in many senate meetings that have been displayed, as well as junior-noble politics where they are entirely able to decide that Lord Tor over there, who treats them like shit, is cut off.  On the same scale, you acting in a Merchant House's interest is almost always a sound investment if funding is what your political character is short on.

Now, apparently making tens of thousands of coins is 'easy', and this entire process is very well leveled out.  But if that's the case, then there is obviously a blockade somewhere, because the venture fails far more often than it succeeds, and you can say that makes sense, sure.  But the day any of these other small shops in the game had to go through any of this, or currently go through any of this, is the day that I'll pretty much agree with you.  I think the MMH level should require more, and every other level far less.  These warehouses should be filled.  These little shops should be vying for their space.  There should be conflict over these limited number of licenses.  The current system is making the entire process an achievement in and of itself to go through, because the -end- of the achievements is a big one.  But the ones leading up to it are truly, in terms of the game world, very small ordeals.

This makes for very mismatched standards, in terms of the game world.  For example:
Not sure if this has been mentioned because I'm currently on my phone..m but social structure, prejudices, etc, should all apply. No elf MMH should be able to attain Atrium level anything, at least not in public. In fact, I think it should be harder for them to start, since everyone proclaims money is easy to come by in game. (Not mem I've never had a character with more than 5k at a time, so y'all are just crazy people. Heh.)

While accurate perhaps on the MMH level, is there an equivalent level in some other social structure that would allow for it?  I.e. Can elves form an eastside coalition?  Can tribal elves make for a prime 'MMH level' construct in Luir's?  What about Red Storm?  Why does this remain static across the game world, when are there examples scattered throughout the game of businesses run by less favored races, but when it comes to PC's, the standard suddenly rises not just a bar or two, but to the point that we, the playerbase, actually think these standards are in some cases -too low-?  Why is this being pigeoned into 'You must be a business of this type that does this sort of business, to earn this space'?  To insist that it is perfection in its current form and not in need of feedback is a little too much pride on the head of the creator/administrator of it, and a little bit close-minded in terms of the observer; this was supposed to be a tremendous opportunity to shuffle things up for the player base, and instead has apparently been turned into a headache for all parties involved just because of all the rule-keeping and enforcement of spotty outlines on 'how things work'.  In a sense...it's arbitrary in the -bad- way, instead of arbitrary in the way that helped Terash get to where it got.  That is my impression.

And I'm glad this was split off from the other discussion.  The other discussion, I put mostly in the hands of player mentality with the need from staff to support it (I think the player mentality as far as conflict and marks on the world is fraying at the edges).  This discussion, from my limited exposure to how these things work, I really do feel like is something that we need to address from the administrative side of it; I don't think it's fulfilling much of a purpose in the game in the current form, and thus not adding as much as it could be with just a different perspective on how it should fit in.
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Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 08:59:15 PM »
Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly

According to the helpfile:
      "You can also hire a guard for the shopkeeper. Cost for the guard comes out of your account on an IC yearly basis."


Quote
This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

So don't leave it around your apartment?

You wouldn't need to have any made up and kept around if you're not immediately using them.


Quote
It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

That's a very valid concern/question, as to what makes an item unique to a particular clan or group. It's worth discussing, but it's a large enough topic that if we really want to get in to it, it could use its own thread.


Quote
I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.

Why is this an OOC metagame? Why isn't "discover how they make that" a valid IC reaction? If anything, the fact that it's HARDER to do it for actual clans is where the metagame OOC part is.

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Desertman

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 09:03:05 PM »
Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly

According to the helpfile:
      "You can also hire a guard for the shopkeeper. Cost for the guard comes out of your account on an IC yearly basis."


Quote
This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

So don't leave it around your apartment?

You wouldn't need to have any made up and kept around if you're not immediately using them.


Quote
It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

That's a very valid concern/question, as to what makes an item unique to a particular clan or group. It's worth discussing, but it's a large enough topic that if we really want to get in to it, it could use its own thread.


Quote
I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.

Why is this an OOC metagame? Why isn't "discover how they make that" a valid IC reaction? If anything, the fact that it's HARDER to do it for actual clans is where the metagame OOC part is.



The above referenced helpfile is accurate, but not totally inclusive. I'm not proposing an idea. I'm stating a fact. The guards are not limited to only that function. Find out IC is all I can say beyond that.


The reason it's an OOC metagame is because "discover how they make that" actually literally translates into "find their secret crafting key item", and that is how it will be interpreted.

It won't be heard as, "Bring me their golden box.", it will be heard as, "Find the secret crafting key item that goes into that box, I don't actually need the box, just the crafting key item. Bring me that, it's what I need on a coded level.", and that's what will happen. Saying it a different way doesn't change the fact that on an OOC level the OOC metagame is exactly the same.

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Armaddict

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2016, 09:04:41 PM »
Quote
A polished, golden-finished wardrobe would seem to be made from a set of golden finish and a baobab log

If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.

I will agree with that as a sensible idea when it is brought about the same way as it is for any other group's, i.e. Let's see Salarr start having to guard their recipes.  Some of their stuff is not particularly hard to make, and sure, someone making them might be in some trouble, but that should still be a possibility if we use the above as the standard.
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Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2016, 09:09:57 PM »
The above referenced helpfile is accurate, but not totally inclusive. I'm not proposing an idea. I'm stating a fact. The guards are not limited to only that function. Find out IC is all I can say beyond that.

Unless staff wants to chime in, I guess I'm just going to have to take your word for it.


Quote
The reason it's an OOC metagame is because "discover how they make that" actually literally translates into "find their secret crafting key item", and that is how it will be interpreted.

It won't be heard as, "Bring me their golden box.", it will be heard as, "Find the secret crafting key item that goes into that box, I don't actually need the box, just the crafting key item. Bring me that, it's what I need on a coded level.", and that's what will happen. Saying it a different way doesn't change the fact that on an OOC level the OOC metagame is exactly the same.

We're going to have to disagree, because I think you're wrong.

The premise here is that there IS a secret unique process to make the item. In our example, this is the golden finish. You literally cannot have a wardrobe finished to look golden without it. This is an IC reality representing the uniqueness of the process of craft. Thus, someone wanting to figure out how to make this finish so they can replicate what the original creator did is IC.

It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 09:11:45 PM by Taven »
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Armaddict

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2016, 09:17:11 PM »
Quote
It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

...that's not comparable at all.  These items are not some cherished secret -process-, they are items.  The same as any other item in the game.  Trying to make the analogy that because it is a mastercraft, it is now more closely related to some other thing that is not an item is a move that is only made to conveniently reinforce your argument.

These are items.  The same items that other clans make.
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Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2016, 09:17:52 PM »
I will agree with that as a sensible idea when it is brought about the same way as it is for any other group's, i.e. Let's see Salarr start having to guard their recipes.  Some of their stuff is not particularly hard to make, and sure, someone making them might be in some trouble, but that should still be a possibility if we use the above as the standard.

Here: A thread for that

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manipura

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2016, 09:18:37 PM »
According to the Help file:

"You can hire a single guard NPC for your shopkeeper, or your warehouse, or both."

Of course, since your guard doesn't codedly do anything and it's known that your guard doesn't codedly do anything, there's no guarantee that having one behind your warehouse door will actually be anything more than a decoration.

Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2016, 09:21:55 PM »
Quote
It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

...that's not comparable at all.  These items are not some cherished secret -process-, they are items.  The same as any other item in the game.  Trying to make the analogy that because it is a mastercraft, it is now more closely related to some other thing that is not an item is a move that is only made to conveniently reinforce your argument.

These are items.  The same items that other clans make.

I think you're getting offtrack on the premise.

The premise is that 'a golden-finished wardrobe' is a multiple-level craft protected by the key ingredient of 'golden finish', which is a unique item. It is specially used to treat the wood to give it the golden finish. The process of making it is secret.

Kadius' item, it's call it 'a finely-cut dimond ring' is a craft that requires 'a finely cut diamond' which is an item produced by secret Kadian diamond cutting techniques. The tools used to do this are guarded jealously, it is a Kadian secret.

The only difference between these two scenarios are that Kadius has CODED protection to their items, rather then needing to require multiple craft layers to protect what they make. That is a completely different discussion, which I have made a thread for here.

If you want to discuss or reply to this post, please post there. We're derailing this thread.
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Taven

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2016, 09:26:03 PM »
According to the Help file:

"You can hire a single guard NPC for your shopkeeper, or your warehouse, or both."

Of course, since your guard doesn't codedly do anything and it's known that your guard doesn't codedly do anything, there's no guarantee that having one behind your warehouse door will actually be anything more than a decoration.

You're right, it does state that lower down in the helpfile. My apologies for missing it.

Well, this could be a code issue for a warehouse. However, it would be abuse of the system to ignore a coded guard and not wish up before attempting to steal something with one present. I would assume that staff would treat such behavior accordingly.

As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

wizturbo

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2016, 10:01:15 PM »

Likewise, your statement that Major Merchant Houses have no real political power is pretty much outright wrong.  They may not have seats on senates or anything, but they very visibly affect politics with that massive amount of wealth, as is evident in many senate meetings that have been displayed, as well as junior-noble politics where they are entirely able to decide that Lord Tor over there, who treats them like shit, is cut off.  

They have influence, but no real power themselves.  They have no votes in the Senate, in fact, they aren't even allowed in the Senate meetings except on rare occasions.  They have no army large enough to take power by force, and they have no Sorcerer-King to take things by magick.   They make toys for the truly powerful, or weapons for the truly powerful's armies, or manage the coin and property of the truly powerful.

Don't get me wrong, they're WAAAAY higher up the social ladder the Joe Grebber, and aren't without their own teeth if someone fusses with them too much.  But they exist because the truly powerful let them exist, or want them to exist.

If they were required to actually pay hundreds of thousands of coins in bribes, taxes, and license fees over the course of years and their source of income was, "Training aides.", and they actually depended on that to make said money....whew, I'm not entirely certain that would make its way through the system.

You're assuming they had to pay hundreds of thousands in bribes, taxes and license fees.  They had a Senior Borsail noble backing them.  That means alot.  Having a Senior noble of any House, let alone Borsail, is quite the guard dog for your enterprise. 

Furthermore, you're assuming their business is training aides.  That's what their occupation is, but their -business-  is making Nobles and Templars happy by training their aides so they don't have to.  Or offering Nobles and Templar's a place to chat and drink tea without walking all the way back to the Noble Quarter.  That's their business.  When it comes time to pay the licensing fees, they can just ask their patron if they could help.  Borsail was their patron at one time, and could fart enough coin for Terash to pay a 50,000 coin license fee.  Hell, junior Borsail nobles probably spend more than 50,000 in their lifetime on jewelry, let alone a pet merchant house.  You don't need to spamcraft anything, if you can convince one of them to write you a figurative check.





Jingo

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2016, 10:18:14 PM »
What we really need is Nenyuk to issue a copyright service that sends assassins after crafters that counterfeit your intellectual property.
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Armaddict

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2016, 10:33:09 PM »
Quote
They have influence, but no real power themselves.  They have no votes in the Senate, in fact, they aren't even allowed in the Senate meetings except on rare occasions.  They have no army large enough to take power by force, and they have no Sorcerer-King to take things by magick.   They make toys for the truly powerful, or weapons for the truly powerful's armies, or manage the coin and property of the truly powerful.

Ehhh...IC experiences treat me differently, over the years, playing as both nobles and ranking soldiers under templars given directions from on high.  Perhaps this influence and just how strong it is has faded due to the lack of steady appearance by people ranking above the PC glass ceiling.  Their is no objection as far as their 'power' vs their 'influence', insofar as you want to divide the two, but the two are very definitely far more intermingled to make that distinction between the two responsibly.

However, it turns into a moot point the moment that we further explore the rest of your statement, which is that a minor merchant house will not exist without the powers that be, and yet they do.  Being ousted from Allanak does not make Salarr a non-merchant house.  Kurac, being banned for years, did not cease to be a major merchant house.  The creation of a MMH does not require state sponsorship; their business in their city state does.  What makes a MMH is prosperity and longevity, both of which are covered in the requirements for its formation, but the taxes are not for the state's approval of their status as a merchant house; No other merchant house was 'created' by a city state, and so if that is the inference made by this documentation, such is something to be added to the list of things that can and should be changed.

Also...I know you've been around for a long time, so I'm pretty sure you know that Major Merchant Houses did indeed employ actual military wings, not their hunters, for a very long time.  This was something removed later, and I don't recall if it was 'made virtual' or retconned entirely.  But military prowess was actually a concern for all three of them.  Kurac, obviously, maintains it to this day.  The big deal with why they were smaller was that they were made to protect assets, rather than take them (though there were actual merchant wars over things, back in the day); That's all that's needed, because either city state declaring war on any of them was deemed as a tremendous waste of time at best, and a surefire way to fuck themselves as the norm.

What we really need is Nenyuk to issue a copyright service that sends assassins after crafters that counterfeit your intellectual property.

That's kinda where I was going with it.  If it's too difficult to plan on the same protections for smaller groups, via a code barrier that is strange for existing...then just open it up for clans to have to enforce these kinds of things their own way, the same way a MMH is expected to.
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Norcal

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2016, 11:26:32 PM »
It does seem the requirements for getting to MMH level are onerous, yet doable.  Remember it is not just one person making coin, but supposedly an organization.

So thinking that it will cost at least 50,000 coin does not seem unrealistic, if you have a number of people working towards the goal and do it as an organization.

The whole shopkeeper thing I find to be poorly done.  If master crafts must be used, then allow the crafter to have a locked patent on them at least until the MMH no longer exists.  Then they could become available for crafting by all. And limiting items on an NPC shopkeeper to master crafts seems to be unrealistic.
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Inks

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Re: Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2016, 03:41:15 AM »
Make sure to categorise all your employees by coded guild, too. You could call them all "guards" "makers" and "getters". You're the man now dog.
Or maybe soldier medic and sniper would be better.

Reposting my glib sense of humor here so it makes sense. Imagine trying to start a clan that you couldn't spam items to create enough wealth for the fees, such as a cult or a coded bandit company. Are these things possible in game now? Signs point to no. I am not criticizing the changes imms have made in the last two years, I love the state of the game, in fact. I just wish there was a way to have a clan/boards that didn't involve being in a MMH OR relentless twinking/OOC.

So I do agree it should be more accessible with time and effort, so that the work you have to do to keep up with it doesn't set a bad example for new players.

I did play in a MMH for a time, and did reasonably enjoy it.
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