Indie Merchants

[BrokenRomance]

I'm going to start this off with the fact that I'm pretty sure I will never want to play a Merchant in a GMH or any kind of Merchant House.

You aren't likely to convince me to, so please don't try.

However, I'm really interested in how the whole "jealousy" thing with indie merchants and GMH merchants works out, and if there's any downside to an indie merchant aside from this?

I mean, I've heard that a GMH merchant isn't above killing an independent merchant and that it's suggested you never try to mastercraft on an indie merchant because it's a death flag and things, but is there any other downside?

I mean, as an independent I get to create for myself and all sorts of neat stuff. It's a huge plus for me, and I can handle customers I like without being told I have to (probably rare in GMH too, but hey. Stranger things have happened)

[Nergal]

I'd personally be mildly annoyed if people in my clans were killing indie merchants just because they were mastercrafting things, in general. Most traders in the world are, indeed, independent. In Allanak the bazaar is lined at the edges with GMH holdings, but you can clearly see that the vast majority of the space is dedicated to NPC and vNPC traders that are making their living on their own.

So what sets apart those indie traders from their GMH counterparts? Here's just a few things:

- Specialty. Salarr's focus is high-end weapons and armor. Kadius relies on high-end clothing, jewelry, furniture and other luxuries. Kurac has spice, of course, but also spice paraphernalia and high-end travel gear. Indie merchants might find it risky to tread into this territory. That's not to say they couldn't design weapons, armor, etc. It just might not be as good.

- Supply arrangements. When House Fluffypants needs 100 pairs of diamond-encrusted, feather-lined pantaloons, they don't commission a new design with Amos the tailor, who works off of a blanket in the middle of the Allanaki bazaar. They go to House Kadius. Indie merchants might find it risky to set up major deals with major customers.

- Time. Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac have been around since the rise of mercantilism. Your typical indie merchant has been around since they were born. A typical Zalanthan lifespan does not compare well to 600+ years of existence. Indie merchants might find it risky to suggest that they're better, or even comparable, to these huge entities - at least until they actually are comparable, by becoming the leader of a Minor Merchant House. And even then it's a long road to becoming better.

So, my advice: know your PC's place as an independent and they'll be fine, at least as far as GMH ire goes.

[Jihelu]

As long as you leave the snobby atittude behind and create custom things by request/advice I doubt anyone will shit on you.
"I HEAR YA MAKING CUSTOMS BOY" The salarri says as he shuts and locks the door as his gang of half giants swarm you isn't a situation I see happening.

Now if you start talking mad shit about how the other merchants houses suck horse kank shit and have nothing on you...
Hey that's pretty bad.

Also get licensed would be my advice. Talk Grovel Bribe your local templar for more info.

[Desertman]

A) Pay the right people to ignore the fact you exist.
B) Be upfront about the fact you know you aren't as good as Merchant House merchants....even if you are/are better than them.
C) Make sure the templarate in your city has a reason to want you to stay alive.
D) Make absolutely sure you stick to any agreements you make with these people.

E) Be ready and able to quietly wipe out any of them that start acting stupid even if you do all of the above. Sometimes, you will just run into a nut. Never go after them head on. Smile and pay and do your best right up until the last minute when whoever is on your side out there puts them down for you.


In general, a GMH going after an independent trader is pretty goofy. I always thought of it like this:

If Salarr goes after an independent trader for, "Cutting into our weapons and armor profits.", it's a lot like Smith and Wesson in real life going after a local hick town pawnshop and killing all of the owners because they sell guns too.....

If Kadius goes after an independent jewelry trader, it's a lot like De Beers going after Sweet Aunt Mary Sue who sells bead bracelets she makes herself on EBay and killing her in her sleep because, "My jewelry profits.".

It makes about that much sense.

That being said, I highly recommend these Houses take an interest in taxing these independents and interacting with them. Make interesting agreements with them. Be involved with them. Hell, go so far as to privately sponsor and back them on the side in exchange for personal profits. There is a lot of fun to be had between independents and GMH's in this sort of capacity.

Wiping out independents because, "My House notices the money you make.", is goofy, since an independent can't make enough money for a House to even spare them a glance. BUT, your Agent/Overseer/Trader/Whatever isn't the entire House. They are an employee. Their paycheck from the House probably isn't a fortune. So, taxing "Independent Bob" to supplement your income makes perfect sense, and if he plays along, he might be a great source of income for a very long time.

Also, keep in mind that pretty much every single craft and marketable trade IN THE GAME is already monopolized by one House or the other in some capacity. You can't just wipe people out because, "My House/Organization also deals in that stuff/service.". The game is designed so that some House or organization governs almost every profitable good/service in the game to ensure it is always available in some capacity to the playerbase. This is a playability concern. If you wipe out independents because, "We also do that thing.", independents simply won't be able to exist, because there is no "thing" that someone with Staff/House backing (which makes them immortal basically) doesn't already have under a monopoly.

[Lizzie]

I have a little trouble with the comparisons being used to explain that Salarr shouldn't go after Indie PC.

You're not comparing ginkas to ginkas. You're comparing a forest filled with ginka plants, to a singular ginka, and concluding that the Indie shouldn't be made to feel threatened, nor should Salarr be made to be threatened, by each other.

Salarr isn't a PC. It's a GMH.
Indie merchant isn't a GMH. It's a singular merchant.
Salarr Merchant Amos IS a singular merchant.

As such, if Indie is getting in the way of Amos's profits, then Amos SHOULD be concerned about it. No, it doesn't put much of a dent on Salarr's profits overall, but Amos isn't Salarr. He is a singular entity within the greater whole. HE can be replaced by his second cousin who is just waiting for him to fuck up. Indie has no one waiting for him to die so they can take his place as the head honcho of Indie Traders Inc.

SALARR wouldn't, and shouldn't, give a shit about Indie. But the individual PC Merchant Amos Salarr SHOULD, because the two individual people are competing for PC customers. Any given PC customer needs only one or two bone swords at any given moment. If Indie can whip up one of his previously-approved limited-edition master crafts in an hour, and Salarr says it'll take at least a year before their seniors approve the release of THEIR previously-approved limited-edition master crafts, which merchant do you think the customer will go to?

[Desertman]

I have a little trouble with the comparisons being used to explain that Salarr shouldn't go after Indie PC.

You're not comparing ginkas to ginkas. You're comparing a forest filled with ginka plants, to a singular ginka, and concluding that the Indie shouldn't be made to feel threatened, nor should Salarr be made to be threatened, by each other.

Salarr isn't a PC. It's a GMH.
Indie merchant isn't a GMH. It's a singular merchant.
Salarr Merchant Amos IS a singular merchant.

As such, if Indie is getting in the way of Amos's profits, then Amos SHOULD be concerned about it. No, it doesn't put much of a dent on Salarr's profits overall, but Amos isn't Salarr. He is a singular entity within the greater whole. HE can be replaced by his second cousin who is just waiting for him to fuck up. Indie has no one waiting for him to die so they can take his place as the head honcho of Indie Traders Inc.

SALARR wouldn't, and shouldn't, give a shit about Indie. But the individual PC Merchant Amos Salarr SHOULD, because the two individual people are competing for PC customers. Any given PC customer needs only one or two bone swords at any given moment. If Indie can whip up one of his previously-approved limited-edition master crafts in an hour, and Salarr says it'll take at least a year before their seniors approve the release of THEIR previously-approved limited-edition master crafts, which merchant do you think the customer will go to?

Please see my further explanation.

Using the justification that, "I personally can make more money out of this situation as a House employee." is fine.

However using the justification that, "The House is suffering and I am a House employee so I must wipe them out to save the House.", is silly.

As a House, the House wouldn't even notice in terms of profit margins being affected. Using that as your justification is no justification unless you are playing that your House employee is stupid and/or doesn't understand the actual economics of their House.

You are arguing against my point by using my exact point that we both agree with.

Now, if your justification is, "I know OOC'ly that other PC's which represent .0000001% of the population of the game world are going to this indy so I need to kill this indy to get those PC coins."....well....that's called playing to the meta.

It's very much its own bag of, "You shouldn't do that.".

If your only justification is, "I know on an OOC level they are taking PC coins and I know when I type WHO there are 55 people online.", when in reality, that PC shouldn't be any different to you than thousands of VNPCs you see every day doing exactly the same thing.....that's just poor roleplay.

[Lizzie]

I didn't quote your post when I posted because I hadn't read it yet. So if my post doesn't apply to yours, then that's probably why.

I was addressing a concern that I've read over and over in the past and present, both IG and here on the GDB:
"Your Salarr merchant shouldn't care about my attempts as an indie, because you're Salarr."

This is an untrue statement, for the reasons I outlined, which I'll reiterate:

Your Salarr merchant isn't Salarr. He is an individual, who is not an independent, who relies on the same customers I rely on to make me a successful singular merchant. Whether that success is measured by sids, powerbase, amount of templars we have in our pockets, pals in the Guild, Byn, or anything else, doesn't matter. Our singular existences as PCs in the game are reliant on other PCs in the game to determine our ultimate singular success as PCs, ICly.

If you fuck up as a Salarr merchant badly enough, your clan will make you disappear. If the templarate, guild, Byn, or my merchant's cadre of assassins don't get to it first. And if my Indie fucks up badly enough, I'll have the same risk EXCEPT that I'm the boss so my clan won't make me disappear, since my clan doesn't exist in the first place.

[Desertman]

I didn't quote your post when I posted because I hadn't read it yet. So if my post doesn't apply to yours, then that's probably why.

I was addressing a concern that I've read over and over in the past and present, both IG and here on the GDB:
"Your Salarr merchant shouldn't care about my attempts as an indie, because you're Salarr."

This is an untrue statement, for the reasons I outlined, which I'll reiterate:

Your Salarr merchant isn't Salarr. He is an individual, who is not an independent, who relies on the same customers I rely on to make me a successful singular merchant. Whether that success is measured by sids, powerbase, amount of templars we have in our pockets, pals in the Guild, Byn, or anything else, doesn't matter. Our singular existences as PCs in the game are reliant on other PCs in the game to determine our ultimate singular success as PCs, ICly.

If you fuck up as a Salarr merchant badly enough, your clan will make you disappear. If the templarate, guild, Byn, or my merchant's cadre of assassins don't get to it first. And if my Indie fucks up badly enough, I'll have the same risk EXCEPT that I'm the boss so my clan won't make me disappear, since my clan doesn't exist in the first place.

Oh, heh. It was closely enough related I thought you were replying to me.   No wonder it didn't make any sense when I read it. Sorry.

In general I agree with you so long as the House employee doesn't utilize House resources in order to win their economic "war" (that really isn't).

If they go to House Salarr (staff) and say, "Indy Bob is making life difficult for me, can I get some help?", then the response should be, "Deal with it yourself or you will be replaced with someone who can. Indy Bob doesn't make a fuck to Salarr and we don't even know who he is because he's that far beneath us. Make friends or enemies with him, but it's all on you Agent Fancy.".

Usually that's not what happens though.

Usually, Agent Fancy's superiors take a direct interest in the situation because staff like to have fun too and/or other individuals take a direct interest in the situation because it's seen as, "This isn't for Agent Fancy, it is for House Salarr, and I will act in exactly that way.".

Not to mention it is completely understood that if Indy Bob goes after Agent Fancy, THEN it will be seen as Indy Bob going after House Salarr as a whole, and that will be the response they receive.

So while it is a nice fiction to think, "I am just a singular merchant in a House.", in reality, that's not the case. You are House Salarr for all playerbase interaction purposes on any meaningful level, even if you don't want to be. That's the platform you are projecting your influence from, even if you don't want to.

[Large Hero]

I played a GMH merchant a while back.

A certain indie merchant, who was clearly trying to be rich and influential, got a contract to make something very special and expensive for a noble. This happened because the noble didn't feel like paying our prices, or dealing with us, for whatever reason.

We talked to the indie merchant and said, "Hey. We see that you're doing this. We're even going to let you make this very special and expensive thing for the noble. But we're going to be approving or denying your ability to do this, from now on, because if we want our crafters to do it, not you, that's what's going to happen. Also, I personally want a cut of the profits for this, since you tried to go around us."

They didn't want to play ball. So we had them killed. If they had agreed to submit to our conditions *only when when doing custom jobs for nobility*, there wouldn't have been a problem. They could have kept operating and making a lot of coin. But they didn't want to bend even a little bit.

Just a view from the other side of the aisle.

[Desertman]

I played a GMH merchant a while back.

A certain indie merchant, who was clearly trying to be rich and influential, got a contract to make something very special and expensive for a noble. This happened because the noble didn't feel like paying our prices, or dealing with us, for whatever reason.

We talked to the indie merchant and said, "Hey. We see that you're doing this. We're even going to let you make this very special and expensive thing for the noble. But we're going to be approving or denying your ability to do this, from now on, because if we want our crafters to do it, not you, that's what's going to happen. Also, I personally want a cut of the profits for this, since you tried to go around us."

They didn't want to play ball. So we had them killed.

This is awesome.

I like the idea of the GMH's using their virtual power and influence to interact with and/or dictate situations for the enjoyment of the game overall.

This is a good example of that.

[Barzalene]

When I played a GMH family member, a friend said: The House's story is done. It's your job to be an antagonist.
The way I handled things was if they quietly made stuff that was cool. If they stole big noble commissions or made staffing my crew difficult. They were too big. They were infringing on my family's monopoly and they had to be dealt with. Some were offered jobs or deals. Many died. Do I feel bad about that?
Nope. I feel proud of that. Even Anne of Green Gables had conflict. Indie success should be hard.

[Molten Heart]

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[Desertman]

If I played a staff sponsored/House backed role I could absolutely practice scorched-earth politics on every indy trader in the game and PROBABLY wipe most if not all of them out.....if I wanted to.

But, that would be bad for the game.

Could I do it? Yeah.

But, it would be such a low-level accomplishment considering my position of power vs their position of no-power that I would be ashamed to ever admit I did it publicly.

There's a difference between playing an interesting antagonist with your House-backed PC, and playing a griefer. It's incredibly easy to wipe people out when you have that sort of power backing you. Even if they manage to kill YOU, they will have 9 out of 10 times signed their own death warrant to do it after the fact anyways.

It's infinitely more interesting and good for the game to consider your position of power when dealing with indies as a platform from which to exert your dominance, not a platform from which to project your wrath.

If they don't bend the knee to your dominance however....well....they made that decision, you are just there to make sure they understand their fuckup.

That's my opinion on how to do it the right way, anyhow.

Now this doesn't fit he mold for every situation of course and I don't want to pretend that it does. I just mean in terms of a general guideline. Also to be fair, I have found MOST people in these sorts of positions do exactly this. I have sent a couple of kudos to them in fact in recent history for their ability to do this well in fact. You know who you are. 

[Molten Heart]

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[Delirium]

If so many (elven and half-elven, even!) NPC merchants manage to have their own shops and not get themselves killed, why is it so hard for PCs?

Heck there's a half-elf that runs a FURNITURE SHOP. He probably gives Kadius a cut out of his profits, but they don't go out of their way to put him out of business.

And why should they? What he's selling aren't luxuries that would compete with Kadius' ability to rake in sid hand over fist from nobility and the richy-rich.

[Desertman]

If I played a staff sponsored/House backed role I could absolutely practice scorched-earth politics on every indy trader in the game and PROBABLY wipe most if not all of them out.....if I wanted to.

I'm curious what the motivation is here. Indy merchants are a pittance compared to a merchant house. To me the situation seems similar to a K-Mart executive or store manager going out of their way to squash a flea market, or at least just one dude's booth in the flea market. Or even some Amway salesman, instead of the flea market example.

There is not practical motivation. I guess if were playing a complete psycho House family member that might be a good IC reason.

I was just using this statement to better illustrate the absurdity of the idea along with the rest of my post.

[Desertman]

If so many (elven and half-elven, even!) NPC merchants manage to have their own shops and not get themselves killed, why is it so hard for PCs?

Heck there's a half-elf that runs a FURNITURE SHOP. He probably gives Kadius a cut out of his profits, but they don't go out of their way to put him out of business.

And why should they? What he's selling aren't luxuries that would compete with Kadius' ability to rake in sid hand over fist from nobility and the richy-rich.

I think the whole, "Houses crushing the little guy just to have something to do because they are bored." isn't so much of an issue as it once was.

It seems like 10 years ago you heard about it regularly.

I can say that in the last few years anyhow I have seen Houses go out of their way to not crush, but instead squeeze, the little guy. It was always much more interesting and entertaining for both parties.

However, to answer your question (even though I know you know the answer heh), basically, it is just more entertaining to ignore the IC world and go after only PCs because.....that's more fun.....

I like to imagine MAYBE the reason they don't go out of their way to squash NPC vendors is the assumption has already been made by the PC in question, "That half-elf furniture seller has been around a very long time. Obviously, someone in my House has already talked to him and he has the right agreements. Otherwise, he would be dead.".

Now, I would LIKE to think this would translate into, "I should make similar agreements with other independents on behalf of my House, since that's obviously what we do, at least where the independents will play ball.".

Instead of, "I will completely ignore the IC world and just crush the fuck out of people with zero warning for teh lulz.".

[valeria]

Maybe they're giving the appropriate bribes and cuts to the appropriate NPC templars etc? I'm willing to make some allowances with NPCs, since the fact that they live forever already sets them apart 

[Desertman]

Maybe they're giving the appropriate bribes and cuts to the appropriate NPC templars etc? I'm willing to make some allowances with NPCs, since the fact that they live forever already sets them apart 

Of course this means the NPC Templars in question are then going back to the House in question to ensure that the House in question is part of said agreement, even if their part is just, "I got told by a Templar that this agreement is in place.".

Either way it amounts to the same thing, "My House enters into agreements with these sorts of individuals through one avenue or another, even if by proxy through a third party. It benefits me to understand the lay of the land and act accordingly.".

[BadSkeelz]

If I played a staff sponsored/House backed role I could absolutely practice scorched-earth politics on every indy trader in the game and PROBABLY wipe most if not all of them out.....if I wanted to.

I'm curious what the motivation is here. Indy merchants are a pittance compared to a merchant house. To me the situation seems similar to a K-Mart executive or store manager going out of their way to squash a flea market, or at least just one dude's booth in the flea market. Or even some Amway salesman, instead of the flea market example.

Gmh PCs are not Kmart executives. They're closer to store managers, maybe regional managers. The executives are all virtual.


This means our Kmart manager is, by and large competing for the same customer base as all the flea marketers. If the flea market has set up shop in Kmart's parking lot, you can bet your ads that the manager will see them off, OR come to some sort of arrangement.

 GMH saving grace is that high value customers (nobles) do not generally want to go to the flea market. The earnings here let them offset the lost revenue that goes to the flea market.

[Delirium]

It's only seen as "in the same parking lot" due to the size of the playerbase. I guarantee you that if there were 500+ players on no one would give a shit about indie #897.

In other words, we really need to remember to keep the virtual population in mind, not just the PC population.

[Desertman]

It's only seen as "in the same parking lot" due to the size of the playerbase. I guarantee you that if there were 500+ players on no one would give a shit about indie #897.

In other words, we really need to remember to keep the virtual population in mind, not just the PC population.

This goes back to the idea of, "I know on an OOC level they sell to PCs, and I also sell to PCs, so I have an OOC motivation to feel they are in my market competing with me, because I OOC'ly know we are selling to the same 40 people online when I type WHO.".

Sadly, that is exactly what it comes down to.

Kind of disappointing really.

[BrokenRomance]

I really didn't expect this level of detailed answers, thank you everyone. I'm wondering, from what I've read could you reach an agreement with a Templar and not worry about GMH Merchant #567?

Also where do tribal merchants stand? Are they like merchant house merchants on scale of influence?

[Desertman]

I really didn't expect this level of detailed answers, thank you everyone. I'm wondering, from what I've read could you reach an agreement with a Templar and not worry about GMH Merchant #567?

Also where do tribal merchants stand? Are they like merchant house merchants on scale of influence?

My recommendation would be to reach an agreement with both, if both will allow it and are reasonable.

However, if you are going to be required to go with only one for whatever reason....you can never go wrong with going Templar.

See my list above regarding line item E for details on why you would be better off going "Templar" when you are dealing with a potential unreasonable/nutty person.

A Templar at your back with an IC reason to want to keep you around is never a bad thing. Of course, and I can't stress this enough, if you want to really succeed you need to try and go out of your way to make the GMH reps happy with you. That's my personal opinion anyhow. Some of them might be unreasonable, and in that case, you may be forced to make sure they have an accident, but in general, if they allow it, you are better served to play nice if you want to stay alive.

I'm not sure what you mean by tribal merchants. Tan Muark would have been considered to have had tribal merchants I suppose.

The only PC "tribal merchants" I can think of who might fit that bill now would be desert elf PC's who might try and play a more mercantile role. In that case, it would vary from tribe to tribe, but in general, tribal elves have never had much influence on Merchant House politics as they relate to inner city economics.

[Lizzie]

It's only seen as "in the same parking lot" due to the size of the playerbase. I guarantee you that if there were 500+ players on no one would give a shit about indie #897.

In other words, we really need to remember to keep the virtual population in mind, not just the PC population.

The virtual population isn't buying PC goods and services. They're getting their goods and services from the virtual population. Even clan-provided salaries don't come from virtual paymasters; they come from coded NPC paymasters who are (occasionally) animated by staff.

PC Merchant Amos Salarr doesn't give a shit about VNPC Malik's successful business because Malik isn't stepping on Amos's toes. House Salarr doesn't give a shit either, because some VNPC Salarr senior already had a "chat" with VNPC Malik and they came to an agreement. Perhaps VNPC's end of the agreement was he lost his left foot and has to do his master crafts sitting down for the rest of his life. Amos doesn't have to care about that either, because - it doesn't happen in Amos's sphere of influence.

PCs have to consider the virtual world, yes. But they also have to consider that the virtual conflicts in the virtual world perpetrated by and against virtual people, are handled virtually.