Author Topic: Desert Roguelike  (Read 11728 times)

Asmoth

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2016, 06:56:46 PM »
It'll resemble dwarf fortress adventure mode in some ways, I guess, but I won't ever begin to be able to approach that level of simulation!


It's impressive so far, keep up the good work and keep in mind that silly little games are sometimes huge successes on Steam Early Access.
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Marauder Moe

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2016, 07:13:57 PM »
If you're doing body part/damage/wounds, a little color status ascii person would be a good use for that space.

Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2016, 09:29:07 AM »
It'll resemble dwarf fortress adventure mode in some ways, I guess, but I won't ever begin to be able to approach that level of simulation!
It's impressive so far, keep up the good work and keep in mind that silly little games are sometimes huge successes on Steam Early Access.

Haha, thanks.  Entrepreneurship makes me uncomfortable, though, so it'll be free.

If you're doing body part/damage/wounds, a little color status ascii person would be a good use for that space.

Yeah, that's a good point.  I'm not sure if I have the artistic chops to get something not absolutely stupid looking together, so I may go with status bars.
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Feco

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2016, 06:35:47 PM »
Big-deal game-play question to follow.  I'd love some feedback here.  For scale, remember that each tile takes about 5 minutes to walk across on the world map, and 1 second to walk across on local-maps.



You've been traveling for days through the sandy, dune-covered deserts to your west, and you've spent much of today over the more flat, sandy, rocky wastes leading east.

It's late in the afternoon.  To the east, you spot two very, very large outcroppings -- perhaps absolutely massive mesas of some sort.  You suspect it will be getting dark by the time you reach the pass between the two, so you decide that camping upon the larger raised area might be prudent.  You only hope there's a pathway up -- the climb would take some time.



Success -- the northern mesa is very large, and has plenty of space to explore.  On the south end, overlooking the pass, is a much, much, smaller raised area.  There may even be some ruins there -- seems like the sort of place someone might have built a fortress in some ancient time.

You wander over to that area, and explore.

To do this as a player, you walk over and press '>' on your keyboard.  This takes you down to a 'local map.'  They work in a particular way, and I've shared a few screenshots, but I'd like to know what you, as a player, would expect and/or would like to see when pressing the '>' button to explore an area.  This can mean any number of things, so please interpret the question however you like.

I know that's sort of a vague way to ask a question, and I was light on what details I'm looking for, but I think that's the best way to get an objective measure of what I'm interested in.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 06:40:20 PM by Feco »
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Marauder Moe

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2016, 02:33:02 AM »
So, as a general piece of advice, you should NOT by copying keys or UI design elements from Dwarf Fortress.

Is switching from overland map to local map a big deal for the game/engine?  If not, I might make it as simple as "enter".  Even if so... maybe "enter" and then a confirmation dialong.

Case

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2016, 02:40:34 AM »
So, as a general piece of advice, you should NOT by copying keys or UI design elements from Dwarf Fortress.

Is switching from overland map to local map a big deal for the game/engine?  If not, I might make it as simple as "enter".  Even if so... maybe "enter" and then a confirmation dialong.
I had no idea that usage of '>' came from the totally definitely pre ToME/Angband/PernAngband game 'Dwarf Fortress'
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 02:42:28 AM by Case »

Asmoth

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2016, 02:44:33 AM »
So, as a general piece of advice, you should NOT by copying keys or UI design elements from Dwarf Fortress.

Is switching from overland map to local map a big deal for the game/engine?  If not, I might make it as simple as "enter".  Even if so... maybe "enter" and then a confirmation dialong.
I had no idea that usage of '>' came from the totally definitely pre ToME/Angband/PernAngband game 'Dwarf Fortress'
Pretty sure what Case is saying here is you can't copywrite keybinds. So leave the man to make his game and shush.
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Case

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2016, 02:47:57 AM »
So, as a general piece of advice, you should NOT by copying keys or UI design elements from Dwarf Fortress.

Is switching from overland map to local map a big deal for the game/engine?  If not, I might make it as simple as "enter".  Even if so... maybe "enter" and then a confirmation dialong.
I had no idea that usage of '>' came from the totally definitely pre ToME/Angband/PernAngband game 'Dwarf Fortress'
Pretty sure what Case is saying here is you can't copywrite keybinds. So leave the man to make his game and shush.
Well no I'm not saying that at all, because I can both spell and use the word 'copyright' appropriately in a legal context - but more or less that Dwarf Fortress stole tons of keybinding and UI by this standard of theft Moe is setting.

Marauder Moe

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2016, 02:48:56 AM »
I'm don't mean to say Feco shouldn't copy keys/UI from Dwarf Fortress because of any copyright/originality issues.  I'm saying it because the UI is HORRENDOUS.


Case

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2016, 02:52:44 AM »
I'm don't mean to say Feco shouldn't copy keys/UI from Dwarf Fortress because of any copyright/originality issues.  I'm saying it because the UI is HORRENDOUS.


Oh yeah it is, good point. Although '>' is reasonable notation for an uncommon action in a roguelike, and it looks like an arrow so entering is ok.

Marauder Moe

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2016, 02:56:55 AM »
The enter button literally has the word "enter" on it.   :P

Case

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2016, 04:51:31 AM »
The enter button literally has the word "enter" on it.   :P
Mine has an arrow ;P

Rathustra

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2016, 05:13:06 AM »
> is used because it is the symbol for a down set of stairs, < is used for leaving as it is the symbol in roguelikes for up stairs.

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, Feco - but often when you use > to 'zoom in' like in UrW or Caves of Qud you end up in the center of the generated 'local map'. If you're asking if there are any ideas that could build on this - how about having a prompt for the player with enough sense/training that allows them to adjust where they appear on the local map when where they appear might be important.

For example - say the player does find a set of ruins and heads over to tap > - maybe they could be asked if they want to approach the ruins from afar, observe the ruins for a time (which would generate some information on what they might see), or stride directly up to the gates of the outpost. A less wise, or unexperienced adventurer might end up going straight to the gates of the outpost (for better or for worse). But the experienced scout would stop a while to watch and would see a pack of gith leaving and returning on patrol! This would give them a reason to approach from afar and plan their raid more carefully.

Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2016, 08:29:55 AM »
Hahaha, maybe I was TOO vague.  Rathustra's answer was more what I was looking for.  Thanks for that!

The point of being vague was to not limit your answer.  I did have a specific mechanic in mind, but I'm also just curious what others would think would be fun or cool.

I appreciate the control talk too.  '>' is standard in almost every roguelike to "go down." Most controls are following roguelike standards.  Others will hopefully be intuitive, and/or will have in screen instructions.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 12:51:40 PM by Feco »
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Feco

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2016, 09:32:55 AM »
Here's my weekly update from the developer's forum.  Still looking for people to do blueprints.  I can provide more guidance if that would change anyone's mind.  I find content generation boring compared to system building, so that's what will ultimately slow development.

I might try to get a website set up this week.  If I do that, I'll post a link, keep a blog there, and quit spamming the boards.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Desert RL

Not much to show with screenshots this week, as I worked mostly on the back end. I did a lot of optimizing of current systems, and set up some new ones.

The largest optimization was probably one I should have been using since the beginning: seed-based map generation. Currently I save the world-map as a complete array, but all other maps (importantly, local outdoor maps) are now largely regenerated using a saved seed. The filesize for the outdoor spaces was roughly 3MB compressed. Each. This was a problem. Now, we've only got a 32 bit string, max, for each map, plus whatever space the list of objects/etc. from that map takes up. That's a MASSIVE improvement.

The game currently takes up ~170MB memory while on the world map. I'd still like to reduce this, and I suspect that'll involve recoding the worldmap to load from disk in chunks. Saves, from the start, are roughly ~3MB on disk, compressed. I'm pretty happy with that.

Initially I had planned to make local-maps non saving as a gameplay feature -- everything would be changing all the time. I've scrapped that in favor of the world-map changing ever so slightly. The more sandy and windy an area, and the worse the weather, the more likely it is to change a bit. These changes would drastically change the local areas affected, so you're still at risk at losing access to ruins/etc., or to finding new things to explore.

The other change I'd like to make is in world-map generation speed. The generator actually works pretty fast, but I don't load a map unless it has a certain number of features generated, so the time to generate a world is VERY variable. It could take 2 to upwards of 30 seconds. This is a low priority change, though, as it only happens once per game.

In the world, I'm up to 9 distinct biomes, with several variations (I think I've shown off mostly dune seas and rocky wastes). The biggest change is that these biomes change in appearance/weather/difficulty based on their elevation, remoteness, and neighboring biomes. This should add a good deal of variety. Since I mentioned elevation, it's worth mentioning that elevation is becoming increasingly important as development continues. Climbing a mesa could aid in helping you find ruins, or could be your last chance of spotting water when you've run out.

Most major gameplay systems are in place, but many (like magic, psionics, and city generation) might as well just be called skeleton systems, because they simply don't have content generated yet.

In fact, content-generation truly is my bottleneck. Most things are procedurally generated, but in order to give the world more details, I've also been building blueprints that are fairly modular. These blueprints have many features which are different each time they're loaded, which are further modified by the generators (I think I've mentioned this before). Honestly it doesn't take that much time or thought to build one, and the reward is high (you can potentially get dozens of room designs from a single blueprint). I just think it's boring.

Initially I was aiming for next weekend to be the first alpha release. There are a few changes at work though, so that's probably going to change. I'm probably looking at a month for a stable and feature-rich release. It's tough to say, though, so I'm going to try to avoid making concrete predictions or setting deadlines for myself. Once all my current systems are fleshed out I will do an alpha release. I'll never be happy with the amount of content I add, and I'll keep coming up with new ideas for systems, but I can just save all that for future updates.

I should build a website and come up with a real name for the project.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 09:34:32 AM by Feco »
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Rathustra

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2016, 06:51:54 PM »
I'd love to help with blueprints, but until I finish my current Arm workload I don't have the time on top of all my RL stuff!

Asmoth

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2016, 12:16:30 AM »
Whatever happened to this, haven't heard much lately.  Tell me you didn't quit, it looked like it would be really fun to play.
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Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2016, 05:26:22 PM »
Nope, haven't quit!

Progress is moving along at snails pace -- I'm starting work in my dissertation lab, have had several out-of-town stints, and my wife & I are in the process of buying a house.

I'll try and update at some point!
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Feco

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2017, 07:08:31 PM »
Things have kept me away for a while, but I'm still working on this in my spare spare-time, and my largest bottleneck is still content generation.  I admittedly love building systems, but I find being creative pretty challenging.  I'd love some help, if people are interested!  I need help building things!

A lot of things are generated on the fly, and the hope is that the game generates interesting structures/items/etc. on its own... but, it's always great to have some hand-made items as well.  Even if you only want to make one item, please do!  A single item can have many variations once it goes through the item generation code, so it'd be helping add a lot to the game.

In terms of item quality, I need everything from totally shitty, to pretty nice.  Think Armageddon level technology.  Feel free to be creative.  Feel free to be boring, or really weird -- anything you want.  Nothing is too mundane or too strange!  Keep things non-magical, though.

There are a lot of variables that go into each item, but I actually only need a fraction of them from you!  The rest is automatic, or requires only a little extra effort from me.

If you're interested, please post here or PM me.  You'll have to copy and past the templates into notepad, or a similar program.  I'll PM you an email address to send the final text file to, when you're done.

Here's are the objects I currently need:

Traveling clothing and gear

No combat items (weapons/armor/etc.).  No tools (ropes, picks, etc.).  Only things one might wear when traveling/exploring (cloaks, packs, boots, belts, etc.).  Items with potentially specific uses (e.g, climbing harness) are acceptable, as long as they are worn -- not held.  Things don't always come in pairs (no pairs of boots, or gloves -- only a boot or a single glove).

Example/Template:

Code: [Select]
if spec_loot == 'sandcloth windcloak':

name = 'sandcloth windcloak'
char = 'W'
desc = 'A windcloak made of thin, scratchy sandcloth.'
color = libtcod.light_grey

material = 'plant'
slot = 'body'
type = 'cloak'

max_stamina_bonus = 1
capacity = 0

Item name goes on top line and after name.  Char is the icon that represents it -- use a letter or symbol.  Descriptions can be as long as you like, but I'd prefer things to be succinct.  Colors can be found here -- just replace the light_grey part with the color of your choosing.  Material, 'plant' or 'leather' only.

The following slots are available: head, neck, torso, body, back, belt, left hand, right hand, left foot, right foot, wrist, arm, leg.  Select one slot for each item.

Type doesn't matter (well, it does, but it doesn't matter what you put).  Put whatever general "type" of item you think it is.

The last two lines, feel free to fill out if you like.  Don't worry about game balance too much -- I can adjust things later (and you actually taking a stab at it helps me a lot)... and seriously, don't think too hard about it.

max_stamina_bonus refers to how much easier it makes travel.  A 10 would mean that you can travel roughly an hour longer than you otherwise might be able to naked.  Badass pieces of traveling gear should get a 10.  A badass cloak/duster/etc. can get up to 50.

Capacity refers to how much it holds.  (A spacious leather pack holds 20.  A cloak with a single pocket holds 1.)

Useless treasures/artifacts

General treasures -- things like urns, small statues, ancient religious items, old currency, books bound in fancy bindings.  These items can have variable materials (a statue may be made of carved wood, gold, or anything else), so you may or may not specify material qualities in descriptions as you see fit.  Nothing useful for fighting, exploring, or camping (or anything but selling/collecting, for that matter).  These things will have other uses, but no sense spoiling everything.

Example/Template:

Code: [Select]
if spec_loot == 'small urn':

name = 'small urn'
char = 'u'
desc = 'A small, cylindrical urn.  Its carvings are long since worn away.'
color = libtcod.light_grey

capacity = 1

Same as above.  These items may hold something via capacity, if it seems right (like in the case of an urn).

                                                             

That's what I need!  Let me know if you're interested (and no promises I ever finish, or that it'll be any fun)!

I'll be putting out calls for other items, maps/rooms, and characters at some point -- so hang tight if none of the above interests you.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 11:57:59 PM by Feco »
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Bahliker

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2017, 10:54:38 PM »
I would love to help with this.

Earlier you talked about things to do with loot and mentioned home building in a way that gave the impression that you weren't into it. Is that the case?  If so, what do you not like about it? Why not tie the classic elements of home building to the villages that the game generates instead of to the player's "home"? I'm drawing a little from KDM here. bring enough of a resource type to the right npc and they develop an upgrade. Combine the right upgrades and the village developes new 'technology'. Tie these technologies to a simple special ability tree that your character can access as long as he's friendly with the village, or lives there, or visits frequently, or maybe it's permanent but you can only pick up a few. Each village, depending on its beginning state, has only limited potential for how it can grow. Idea seeds here, nothing more.

Have you considered storyline quests? Suppose there's one main story, a basic one, but it can be approached from multiple starting points, each with a different goal and perspective.

I hope you will also want oodles of randomly appearing side adventures and unique, legendary, magickal artifacts that do badass things.

Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2017, 11:49:08 PM »
I would love to help with this.

Awesome!

Earlier you talked about things to do with loot and mentioned home building in a way that gave the impression that you weren't into it. Is that the case?  If so, what do you not like about it? Why not tie the classic elements of home building to the villages that the game generates instead of to the player's "home"? I'm drawing a little from KDM here. bring enough of a resource type to the right npc and they develop an upgrade. Combine the right upgrades and the village developes new 'technology'. Tie these technologies to a simple special ability tree that your character can access as long as he's friendly with the village, or lives there, or visits frequently, or maybe it's permanent but you can only pick up a few. Each village, depending on its beginning state, has only limited potential for how it can grow. Idea seeds here, nothing more.

Have you considered storyline quests? Suppose there's one main story, a basic one, but it can be approached from multiple starting points, each with a different goal and perspective.

So, I'd like the primary driver of this game to be exploration.  The maps get really interesting, and certain features can only appear when certain bits come together in the right ways -- this means the player has to do a lot of exploring.  Plus, I don't think I'm creative enough to put together a compelling story, and I'm not savvy enough to build a procedurally generated story that wouldn't seem hobbled together.

I don't want to talk too much design philosophy, because I think it can ruin the fun... but I will say that I've considered having the "starting village" be on a bit of a "starvation-clock" (take your village resources, and it will prosper, elsewise it'll die).  The player is totally free to ignore this, and let the village die, setting off on their own to explore, make a reputation, and get phat lootz.  But, making sure your village stays alive might give you better long-term access to resources (at the expense of losing short term access, having to share what you reap on your adventures).  This would probably be the extent of there being "home building" or a "story."

I'm hesitant to get too detailed with long-term village/town/homebuilding, because your PC is going to die, ending the game.  Probably frequently, in the beginning.  I could certainly put together some sort of succession, whereby you keep making PCs from the same village, but I'm building a roguelike, not a city-builder.  We'll see where it goes, though!  It's important I keep features in check, otherwise I'll definitely never get folks playing it.

I will say, though, that with the system they way it is, nothing is stopping a PC from setting up base pretty much wherever they want.  NPCs with special abilities, that quest with you, will certainly make it in, so I guess "base building" would be as simple as claiming a spot, and having the ability to leave NPCs there.

I hope you will also want oodles of randomly appearing side adventures and unique, legendary, magickal artifacts that do badass things.

Of course!
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Shoka Windrunner

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2017, 12:42:17 AM »
It'll resemble dwarf fortress adventure mode in some ways, I guess, but I won't ever begin to be able to approach that level of simulation!

I am a big fan of the older version of ADOM and I'd love to try this.  Maybe even do some videos on it.  (on my little channel)
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TheGoose

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Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2017, 01:05:20 AM »
Saw the title and immediately thought 'What, Armageddon?'

Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2017, 05:12:54 PM »
Thought this would be a fun gif to share.  This is a PC gathering energy and shooting a projectile fire spell:



Explosions/other effects are built to be modular, like everything else.  I haven't done much with them yet, though.  This particular example is about as simple as it gets.  Looks a little better in game -- should have recorded the gif at a higher framerate.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:36:47 PM by Feco »
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Feco

  • Posts: 1979
Re: Desert Roguelike
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2017, 05:57:17 PM »
Been working on the elevation and line of sight system a bit.  I'd love some feedback.

I've implemented triangular "ramps"  between quantized set of elevations.  They aren't necessary for moving between elevations, but they help to differentiate them.  They're more frequent in more confusing areas.  Still a few bugs to work out.

I've also decided to slowly fade lower levels to black, to make it easier to tell where you're at.

Here's climbing a massive sand-dune (and ignoring an Anakore about to eat me):



Here's climbing a rocky outcropping in more mountainous regions:



It works particularly well in areas with darker terrain, I think.  I want to be careful not to spoil locations, but here's a pretty barren, black-sand dune:

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