Author Topic: 50 Shades of Hate  (Read 10219 times)

Nergal

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2015, 09:03:58 PM »
I've split the magicker discussion into its own topic. You can discuss it here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50043.msg908723.html#new
  

Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2015, 10:13:25 PM »
From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.

I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat. Breeds are the result of the intermingling of elves and humans. I would imagine a good chunk of characters would find that idea completely repulsive. The biggest danger of breeds is that they can pretend to be what they're not, threatening the integrity of humans. Breeds aren't hated for what they've done (though they can be), but for what they ARE. They can't ever get rid of the taint of their elven blood, it lingers always with them. They're discriminated against by not only the Noble Houses, but also by the GMH (excepting Kurac). Kadius won't touch them, Salarr won't touch them.

Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence. Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a breed would ever gain an "officer" position like Lieutenant. Upper-tier positions are humans-only, because at the end of the day, a half-elf is still just a dirty breed.

The only exception to these rules would be some Tuluki clans, but that's quite a moot point now.



I've had more than one breed in Salarr. I don't know if the rules have changed since then though.
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whitt

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2015, 10:16:57 PM »
I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat.

Oh I totally agree that they should be hated by the characters in game.  I was more talking about by the players of those characters.  It's pretty easy to get into a character that you as a player know is going to cause you problems.  The breeds probably aren't.  Certainly not in the way an Elf is.  In fact they're pretty useful to have around.

 
Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence.

Again, agreed, but the levels you are talking about as unattainable by breeds are also unattainable to other PCs (until very recently) so the level right below that, say, Sergeant in the Byn is the true measuring stick of what's attainable.  There have been breed sergeants and breeds almost never have a problem getting hired where they are accepted.  Try the same as an elf.  Hence, breeds are preferable to Elves in the reality of what happens.  Even though, to your earlier point, they should be receiving so much IC disgust that (a) a very few lieutenants would promote one to sergeant, knowing the sergeants get sent to speak to folks about contracts and that means being the Byn's face to nobles and GMHs and (b) many runners / troopers will just flat out refuse to take orders from.... that.
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Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2015, 10:52:37 PM »
I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Byn are anything but a bunch of rag-tag, ill-equipped and badly trained slime-balls with no manners, but that's the Byn I was initiated into. If Snugglebottoms Fale wants that damn treasure hunt, and the breed Sergeant is the only one around, well, she'll just either have to suck it up and talk to the Sarge, or send her aide into the field... or she could have her aide speak for him to that detestable creature, that'll teach him to make her soup overly spicy.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 12:58:37 AM by Fujikoma »
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nauta

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2015, 01:08:10 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 01:10:52 PM by nauta »
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Barzalene

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2015, 03:59:24 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.


If you feel that way, you feel that way. I won't talk you out of it.  I'm too old to vaguebook. I'm at an age where I'm either blunt or equivocal. But I don't vaguebook.

I can't speak for anyone else. I like you guys. I log on every day and play with you guys. I'm glad you show up. I don't have any desire to make anyone feel bad about doing so.

But when I see trends that seem to fly in the face of docs, I start to worry that we're slipping away from canon. This has come up a thousand times over the last ten years. I'm never coming on the boards to put down an individual, but instead to say, (and I think we should all be safeguarding the game world atmosphere) "Hey we're drifting, let's paddle it back."

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Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 04:09:02 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.


If you feel that way, you feel that way. I won't talk you out of it.  I'm too old to vaguebook. I'm at an age where I'm either blunt or equivocal. But I don't vaguebook.

I can't speak for anyone else. I like you guys. I log on every day and play with you guys. I'm glad you show up. I don't have any desire to make anyone feel bad about doing so.

But when I see trends that seem to fly in the face of docs, I start to worry that we're slipping away from canon. This has come up a thousand times over the last ten years. I'm never coming on the boards to put down an individual, but instead to say, (and I think we should all be safeguarding the game world atmosphere) "Hey we're drifting, let's paddle it back."



If there was ever a situation where you could be the change, this is it.

If you feel these Tulukis/magickers/breeds/elves should be treated more poorly, then treat them more poorly.

Non-issue.
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Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2015, 04:15:04 PM »
Then vaguebook on the GDB when said breed/Tuluki's friends proceed to murder the tok-shit out of you.
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Iiyola

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

In Dreams

  • Posts: 172
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2015, 06:51:28 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?

Taven

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2015, 06:53:28 PM »
I'm going to change the topic just a little... Don't worry, it's still hate-themed.

.....half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

We talk about more hate for elves and breeds, but how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?



As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Iiyola

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2015, 06:56:32 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

Inks

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2015, 07:01:59 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?



We talk about more hate for elves and breeds, but how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?

The racism for these races is shown through exclusion. Many plots are not available to these races but you aren't usually going to be a dick to somebody who call pull your arms off.

There could be more disdain towards dwarves but I have never noticed a lack of racism in Allanak. Dwarves do need another city clan to join perhaps but to be fair, they are quite unpredictable unless you know their focus (if not played as humans). Giants are patronised and looked down upon constantly (In the non literal sense).


« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:08:25 PM by Inks »
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In Dreams

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2015, 07:42:19 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

But you really don't know what's gone into other PCs' relationships. Maybe those allies were hard-earned. Maybe they're bought and paid for. Maybe they just have something other people want.

Even if my whole family hated, like, left-handed people, if a guy walked in here right now, told me a hilarious joke, and then tried to hand me ten large from that big left hand, I'd take it with a smile! If my mom called me up asking me why I like this left-handed guy, I'd say, tough shit, I like my ten large, Mom, and besides, he's funny too! Even if every part of me doesn't like his stupid left hand, I'm probably going to like that guy. If I've known him for years and he's always been good to me, I'm probably going to even like him better than I like most right-handed people; even if, deep down, I still really hate left-handed people, and I hate that guy's left-handedness, there are ways he can make me think he's alright.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:44:30 PM by In Dreams »

Armaddict

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2015, 07:59:00 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

Keywords there are 'that easily'.  Over the course of time, incredibly useful people tend to gain allies.  Elves and breeds included.  Documentation makes it so that those with minimal dealings with them will likely be suspicious and disgusted.  Those who have been put into the position to be in close proximity over the course of time, however, may very well decide it's in their interest to be more than just a casual observer of bad things happening to said interest.

I find racist behavior more easily explained than gemmed behavior.  You -know- what's up with races, you may find it disgusting, but it's not like they're doing things that you have no idea if you're going to fall over dead in ten years because of it...they're just ugly, or gross, or trying to screw you over in deals.  The same way people ask for exceptions in how accepting they are of such things, there are also exceptions in some chosen few of those demographics moving a bit higher on the social ladder than most ever get the opportunity to.  It happens, usually over a long course of time, and usually through merit to the correct people.
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Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2015, 08:01:15 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Be stronger or whine longer.

I've played extreme assholes who beat the living shit out of breeds and elves and gemmers regularly but I was strong enough people didn't question my shit. It was be on my side or be in my path.
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Iiyola

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2015, 08:34:01 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

But you really don't know what's gone into other PCs' relationships. Maybe those allies were hard-earned. Maybe they're bought and paid for. Maybe they just have something other people want.

Okay, so the whole gemmed/breed argument thing is invalid I suppose.
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Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2015, 08:37:18 PM »
I think what people are trying to say is it's never black and white, yet some people play it as though it always is. Oddly, this thread is titled 50 Shades of Hate... I know it's a play on a book title, BUT, appropriate to this, as well.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2015, 08:37:30 PM »
A year and a half or so ago in Tuluk, some dude was RPing a dwarf being silly and being very insistant about my (very much human) PC 'being in his seat' in the Tooth, going as far as to try and drag him off until my dude would give up and relocate because it wasn't worth the effort being stubborn vs a dwarf. Fortunately, after this had went on for a number of times, an actual third PC started playing during our times(offpeak life sucks), and they were a cavalier to boot. Excellent, I thought, a fellow well-bred human to agree about this dwarf acting out so much.

My character was told to 'stop being so racist' that day and cast admonishing looks, for he should feel bad for being such a mean person.

Also, I'm still not on any side of this debate. It seems like a classical bravery debate, and you people are managing to end up nowhere arguing real soon.

Still, some people are going to end up getting good ideas because of this thread, so I still like to read it.
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wizturbo

  • Posts: 2489
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2015, 08:38:48 PM »
How much you hate someone is not really the topic.  No one cares what your character thinks and feels, they only care about what actions they take, because that's all anyone outside of staff sees.

It's all about how much you can get away with, and under what circumstances would your character let their inner racist out to play?  That's the real question.

    Case study #1 -   A half-giants or muls

I've had characters that really hate half-giants, they think they're smelly, annoying, and stupid.  Muls are hairless, ugly halfbreeds in their own right.  You know how many of my characters have said that to their face?  Zero.  They're monsters.  They'll fucking kill you.  You say that kind of thing behind their back, or trick them into getting themselves into deep shit...unless you're say...a Byn Sergeant.  If your Byn Sergeant hates half-giants, and has their whole crew of mercs with them, they can say whatever the hell they want.  They can mock that half-giant, throw rotten fruit at them, etc...because that brute strength doesn't mean too much to them.  Of course the same is true for plenty of PC's that don't have much reason to fear them.


    Case study #2 - A half-breed...unaffiliated/not many friends

Prejudice towards half-breeds is extremely common place.  Elves don't like them, humans don't like them...they're relatively weak racially, which makes your average breed not much of a threat to anyone who can handle themselves in a fight.   If the halfbreed has no friends to back them up, and hasn't displayed some unusual amount of skill that could make them dangerous...just about everyone can act prejudice towards them.  What're they going to do about it?  Cry?  You can beat the snot out of them, piss on them, pretty much do anything you want as long as it isn't going to get the militia involved.  These are your natural targets for overt racial prejudice.


    Case Study #3 - A half-breed...as a Runner in the T'zai Byn

The same as #2 true in this case...except you have to weigh the risk of what happens if that Runner has friends.  Maybe their Sergeant decides that they don't like you messing with their breed.  Maybe that Sarge thinks only his people should be able to beat the crap out of their little punk halfbreed, not you.  A cautious prejudice person might want to gauge that Sergeant's personality first, before giving the breed a wedgie.  Of course, you can talk behind their back, accuse them of stealing shit, or a variety of other indirect forms of prejudice...but you might not talk shit outright without provocation.

This is by far the most common halfbreed PC you encounter in-game, so it's no surprise that they're not harassed to the same degree you'd see case #2.


    Case Study #4 - A half-breed...whose somehow managed to fight their way up to Sergeant in the T'zai Byn

This is an entirely different ball of wax.  If this motherfucker managed to claw their way up to Sergeant, they're probably one hard ass.  She'll probably kick your teeth in if you start shit with her.  Sure, you can start shit and act prejudice towards her, but don't be surprised if you find yourself visiting the physician afterwards...most smart people would probably keep their mouth's shut, and only talk shit about her behind her back....unless you're say...a noble.  That noble doesn't give a shit how tough that half-breed Sergeant.  They have no reason to watch what they say, because if she so much as lifts her pinkie threateningly in his direction he can snap his fingers and have her thrown into the Arena to wrestle with a Gaj.

This is super rare.  Very few half-breeds manage to gain such status, and frankly, this is probably the highest rank a halfbreed could ever aspire to...so even these utter bad asses are subjected to racial prejudice...by the very people who entrusted them with a middle manager job!  So even here, it's pretty pervasive, it just isn't in your face.  

« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 08:42:01 PM by wizturbo »

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2015, 08:59:25 PM »
Case Study #5: Lone-foot Elf

The lone-foot elf, you hate them, you despise them, not only are they elven, but they aren't even liked by other elves, at least at first, because they haven't been tested. No one trusts them, they know it, in fact, everyone is out to get them, and they know it. Others laugh, but the elf continues out of sheer pride and stubbornness, yes, laugh, because, I'm out to get you[/b] too. If anything goes wrong, the tribeless elf did it. Why? The tribeless elf has much less to fear than the elf with the tribe. Personal gain lost? To an elf, this is nothing near as threatening as a tribe lost, nor is their very life. These are the elves with nothing to lose, who will take anything not nailed down, shank whoever they damn well please, anywhere they damn well please, and the longer they survive, the more of a menace they become. A tribeless elf is either a completely self-interested monstrosity, or a pathetic weirdo with breedy attachment issues trying to rebuild their loss tribe, to no avail. Both are highly dangerous, just in different ways.

Case Study #6: The tribal Elf

Now, THESE are the ones you need to be careful around, even if their tribe is virtual, you should assume, for all intents and purposes, that it is real, and that it's extent of secretive influence and resources are unknown. They embody what an elf is, with all the strengths and weaknesses that come with that. Yes, yes, you could beat the elf up in the Gaj, maybe because you know OOCly the elf's tribe is virtual and there will be no lashback. But tell me... if there was a coded c-elf tribe, with PC representation, would the player make the same decision? This is like if the SLK was virtual, just rampaging the Pah without concern. I mean, granted, the SLK is much more powerful to actually deserve a PC presence, when you see an SLK in Blackwing, you don't just fear and respect that lone PC's savage and hostile attitude and appearance, no, because you KNOW that fellow has hundreds of tribals, all very deadly, that has their back. This is the same in some ways for Sun Runners. Some PCs behave differently with elves with coded tribes than those with virtual, and while under certain circumstances this is understandable, there's more to lose here.

But any elf is a dangerous foe. An elf with allies is much more dangerous and tricky. Given that our PCs are, as we're repeatedly told, not to behave suicidally, then we should likely be slightly uncomfortable picking shit with an elf and, if a breed is available, or maybe even a dwarf, go after them first.

I saw a very well-played dwarf-hater when I started playing. He was a tricky, nasty, mean-ass human. He was nice to my breed, he just REALLY hated dwarves. My breed liked dwarves though, so at the time, I didn't like him. I have to say he generated some interesting plots that involved many people and lead to a Tuluki T'zai Byn Sergeant getting interrogated and getting a cross burned into his forehead in Allanak with his antics in retaliation for, something, but, I remember how I loved to hate that guy, but it was like, one of the last stump-haters I have ever seen.
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2015, 09:15:08 PM »


Is the one with the ugly expression Bobby Fisher? I think it's because of the bad lighting.
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

whitt

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2015, 09:15:45 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?

I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.
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Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2015, 09:20:35 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?

I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.

Whitt, this makes zero sense when dealing with a breed who has built up some real status.

EDIT: Nevermind, kneejerk response, we may be in agreement here. But if you're going to comment on this, please, expand more and explain. Do you think that same crowd would rally behind the mundane human if he was beating up an Oashi gemmed? I've, seen a PC harass an Oashi gemmed before, with horrific results... for the mundane human.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:23:41 PM by Fujikoma »
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword