Author Topic: 50 Shades of Hate  (Read 10217 times)

Taven

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50 Shades of Hate
« on: October 19, 2015, 08:00:14 PM »
In the incredibly long "A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times" thread, there were a couple posts about the different types of hate. Jave made a great post on the nuances of hate and discrimination, and how nothing is black and white. There are, as it were, shades of grey. However, Rokal's concern is that hate has swung too far the other way, avoiding the middle ground.

Some of the hate and discrimination that happen in Zalanthas:

  • Hate/Fear of Magick (gemmers vs rogues)
  • Hate/Dislike of a certain race (Elves, breeds, dwarves, or humans if you're a non-human race)
  • Hate/Dislike of certain cultural groups ("Nakki, rinthi, stormers, luirsians, tuluki, tribals)


So, I wanted to ask you guys all the following:

  • What's your impression on the status of hate/fear? (Too little, too much, just right?)
  • How do your PCs typically deal with the exceptions of magick and racial fear or hate? (remember, don't discuss current PCs)
  • What are ways you could see more of a greyscale being introduced into how people react?

Obviously, how these feelings manifest will be different in different areas (a Nakki probably won't react the same way to a gemmer that a Tuluki would), but I'm still curious on people's thoughts and approaches.
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Inks

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 08:51:31 PM »
I feel there could be more hate and distrust, but hate and distrust that isn't expressed through >kill RP.

Rogues can generally play in 2 non iso places, I feel gemmed pcs trade off freedom for safety and a place to train to max and never being able to hide what they are. I feel it is good RP for gemmed to be ostracized. The AoD and Templars should make more use of them, however, even press ganging unwilling gemmed. This would create things for gemmed to do and boost the power of the AoD codedly without NPCs and Imm intervention.

Templars could even be paid to assign gemmed to a noble house, on a renewable contract. This would create an arms race for nobles to have the best mage working for them who can support their goals. (probably 1 per house but it would be in addition to the aide cap). It would also create magickal rivalries between house mages if done properly, which it turn would create work for pc assassins and thugs perhaps.

Just throwing some ideas out there for those gemmed players who don't have anything to do. Personally the more hate the better ICly.

I feel dwarves could be the brunt of more hate, but they also should have more clans they can join, they were allowed in the Legions and as has been said before, they have maybe 2 clans in Allanak they can join.

I feel the elf situation will improve once the promised celf clan is released, even if it was Patuk's clan. It was very interesting but extremely elfy still, Kudos to you Patuk.

Now that Tuluk has closed I feel there is more hate for tribals thank god, and people don't see a non-descript tribal accent as "exotic".

TL; DR: I feel we need more hate for but also more options for elves, gemmed and dwarves.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 09:20:02 PM by Inks »
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Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 09:38:09 PM »
My PCs these days tend to start off hating something, whether humans, stumps, Nakkis, Kurac, just, there's something they don't like AT ALL. But inevitably that all falls to pieces because I'm not a hateful person, grudging aliances are formed, and eventually, they realize they're being unreasonable.

Ways to express hate without just typing kill dude:
Paranoia (all elves are bad and that one is scheming against me, I better not lower my guard)
Superiority (HAH! That roundear thinks he's so smart, but I just delivered him a clever left-handed compliment while snagging his rapier)
Bar brawl (I'll plant a nice, intimate fist on that stump's lips the next word he says)
Sabotage (I'll just tell everyone Amos is a fruit-fecker)
Theft (Grandma's bastard sword? Mine now, dickweed)
Emote (emo gives ~guy a soft snarl, as he looks over)
Insults (You're too slow, short, and stupid for me to consider relations with you, human)

Please note that while these suffice, escalation may occur, in the event of escalation, you are screwed if you are the player of a c-elf because technically you're not supposed to go anywhere so you're kind of trapped. I prefer not to escalate things unless the other party is being particularly pesky and over-doing it. Express your hate and be done with it, no need to go to knives. Remember there's a player on the other end, a character with a story, and there's likely a bazillion virtual people who've pissed in your ale today. Once things reach the level of threats or death, it all goes out the window. Most people do not want to feel like they are throwing away their character for repping the world how it should be, and so will naturally avoid making that mistake again, and there goes your conflict.
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whitt

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 09:53:23 PM »
So, I wanted to ask you guys all the following:

  • What's your impression on the status of hate/fear? (Too little, too much, just right?)
  • How do your PCs typically deal with the exceptions of magick and racial fear or hate? (remember, don't discuss current PCs)
  • What are ways you could see more of a greyscale being introduced into how people react?

From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.  

Dwarves might as well be humans, the way they are treated.  An' half-giants.... well... everyone loves half-giants amirite?

So racial social ladder as it plays out IG?  (move humans to the top if you're in a role where having a human actually means something (eg AoD)
Half-giant
Dwarf/Human
Breed
Elf

On the magicker side... it's been mentioned more than a few times in other threads.  The hatred can be forced into play, but much like the breeds above, the game doesn't bear it out.  The magickers that are hated are the people that would be hated no matter their guild was because they're doing things that hurt the city/travelers/whatever.  Inside the walls of the city? There is nothing to reinforce that hate.  Magickers can be blamed for things, but they can't actually do any of the things that they are blamed for.   The fear fades right along with this realization.  Even if the Magicker could wave their hand and turn you to ash.  If they do, they're dead.  They're not going to.  So where's the fear?  If, you saw someone piss off a Magicker in the Gaj and that Magicker vaporized the offender down to their boots and none of the militia dared to try and arrest them?  Sure.  I'd fear that.  A lot!  But truth is most folks know this isn't how it works.  As soon as you know that?  The OOC driver for the IC fear is mostly gone and you're left choosing to roleplay as you see fit.  Adding to this is the fact that nothing bad (or good) happens to those who are around magickers for long periods of time.  Anything that does happen is meant to happen and happens exactly as it is meant to happen.  Uncertainty breeds fear.  Bring some of that into play?  And the fear would come right along with it.

Dealing with the "special snowflakes" I'd have my characters treat them just as outcast as who ever it was they were associating with.  That's an easy one.

Greyscale - Put solid documentation together about what is an acceptable response.  Right now the perception is that gemmed for example are owned by Oash and the Templars.  That's it, they might as well be Lepers to anyone else.  Help the players understand by giving examples of how different behaviors might play out.  When would an elf pal up with a Templar?  When would a gemmed breed be welcomed to travel with the Byn?  Those sorts of guidance keeps players from having to wonder if they're being too over the line or if they need to get he canon-hammer out and smite another player down for something they think is too far outside the norm.
 
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Refugee

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2015, 09:59:48 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!












Old Kank

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2015, 10:13:21 PM »
I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think a big part of Arm is just text-based theater, and nuance is very hard to do, while exaggeration is relatively easy.  If your character goes around hating on gemmers, but then gets his hand chopped off and runs to the Vivaduan temple to have it healed back to normal... is he a nuanced character, or just a bad RP'er who dropped IC pretenses to suit the player's desires?  Only that player can say for certain how deep the character's convictions run.

I think the whole hate conversation - especially as it pertains to mages - is actually a distraction from something else: A lack of functional, three-dimensional enemies and fresh objectives left in the setting.  The hatecycle is just low-hanging fruit and misdirected energy.

This is a game.  People play it to have fun, and as a general rule, people don't like to feel hated, or worse, like a pariah.  The trick should be to make people feel persecuted, or subjugated, but leave them an enjoyable outlet.  If being hated is the prime aspect of the role, of course people aren't going to enjoy it.  Make the "hate" the balance to a meaty role, and I don't think there will be a problem.

Rokal

  • Posts: 453
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2015, 10:15:41 PM »
My PCs these days tend to start off hating something, whether humans, stumps, Nakkis, Kurac, just, there's something they don't like AT ALL. But inevitably that all falls to pieces because I'm not a hateful person, grudging aliances are formed, and eventually, they realize they're being unreasonable.

Ways to express hate without just typing kill dude:
Paranoia (all elves are bad and that one is scheming against me, I better not lower my guard)
Superiority (HAH! That roundear thinks he's so smart, but I just delivered him a clever left-handed compliment while snagging his rapier)
Bar brawl (I'll plant a nice, intimate fist on that stump's lips the next word he says)
Sabotage (I'll just tell everyone Amos is a fruit-fecker)
Theft (Grandma's bastard sword? Mine now, dickweed)
Emote (emo gives ~guy a soft snarl, as he looks over)
Insults (You're too slow, short, and stupid for me to consider relations with you, human)

Please note that while these suffice, escalation may occur, in the event of escalation, you are screwed if you are the player of a c-elf because technically you're not supposed to go anywhere so you're kind of trapped. I prefer not to escalate things unless the other party is being particularly pesky and over-doing it. Express your hate and be done with it, no need to go to knives. Remember there's a player on the other end, a character with a story, and there's likely a bazillion virtual people who've pissed in your ale today. Once things reach the level of threats or death, it all goes out the window. Most people do not want to feel like they are throwing away their character for repping the world how it should be, and so will naturally avoid making that mistake again, and there goes your conflict.
the bolded part:
This especially. I've seen things go from zero, with nothing wrong, or little wrong, to escalate all up to 11 with threats of death coming out of no where! Or actually being attacked, out of no where!

Escalation towards such things can happen, but taking it from zero to eleven in one encounter just.. makes things unfun.

I'd add more, but taven's already pointed out my post on another topic about my thoughts on the matter.
 On how my PCs react to things:
For my PCs. It depends on the character, even if they have a simple background - i think. How povery striken was this mundane dude before? Would they have been desperate enough to do this, this, and that? Are the proud of it? do they hide it? ect.
 All of that ties in to what they hate, or dislike.
heres an example:
If i'd ever play a gemmer, I'd not play them as some oddity - if anything. I'd play them as a typical person thrust into a very odd situation. While from character to character acclimation might happen at different paces, but they grew up as a typical mundane up until manifesting. I think its very, very very important to play this part of a gemmer - perhaps the gemmer is envious of the mundanes, and through that kind of sees themselves trying to interact with them or get even minor acceptance from them. Or maybe the gemmer has grown to hate everything - themselves, the mundanes. Theres a lot of freedom for that and while the magick is a -big- part of a gemmer, its not, the sole, key point of it, rather, its how the character -lives with it- and brings that magick into the world.

A young man who wanted nothing more then to join kadius and become a great tailor, had hopes and dreams, then gets his dreams shattered by manifesting in public, somehow and now he is a gemmer of so and so temple. He has lost everything he had worked for - friends, family, anything. They mean nothing now as they most likely want nothing to do with him. Thus he grows to ... whatever. Despite kadius. Envy tailors. Anything. These are -normal people- that are thrust into something they didnt' want or chose to have.

The same process works for any kind of concept - not just magick. You can consider player characters quite above the average person in the world. Their backstory in a way (in my view) is what sets them apart from the rest and sets them 'above the average'.. Im not saying PCs are epic heros of the world. But they're just .. better then your average nameless grebber.

Generally, when i start a new character, I have a brief background with various experiences and such that sets a tone for the character, but otherwise leave them mostly as a sort of blank slate - and let the rp guide the path. A human will hate on elves just as much as the average human would, but if a particular elf gives them reason to trust him/her.. and doesn't screw my PC over. Whats wrong with trusting them they might not openly say that. I like to play the first few weeks, or maybe month of a character as them shaping into what 'sets them above' or beyond the average at times too. Let the world/interaction shape them.

thus 'cause of that I love Rp before pk, and I try to escalate things slowly, rather then quickly.


Delirium

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 10:20:15 PM »
I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think a big part of Arm is just text-based theater, and nuance is very hard to do, while exaggeration is relatively easy.  If your character goes around hating on gemmers, but then gets his hand chopped off and runs to the Vivaduan temple to have it healed back to normal... is he a nuanced character, or just a bad RP'er who dropped IC pretenses to suit the player's desires?  Only that player can say for certain how deep the character's convictions run.

I think the whole hate conversation - especially as it pertains to mages - is actually a distraction from something else: A lack of functional, three-dimensional enemies and fresh objectives left in the setting.  The hatecycle is just low-hanging fruit and misdirected energy.

This is a game.  People play it to have fun, and as a general rule, people don't like to feel hated, or worse, like a pariah.  The trick should be to make people feel persecuted, or subjugated, but leave them an enjoyable outlet.  If being hated is the prime aspect of the role, of course people aren't going to enjoy it.  Make the "hate" the balance to a meaty role, and I don't think there will be a problem.

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In Dreams

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 10:37:58 PM »
I like to think I start my characters out according to the documentation says they'd be in the world mixed with their own personality, but my character isn't a document. They're a living, breathing person. They learn and grow in ways much bigger than their skills.

If experiences bring a PC to somehow overcome their resistances and trust or befriend a gemmer/elf/dwarf/foreigner/whatever, I can't force unconditional hate down their throat forever. What others see when they walk in and a PC's talking to that gemmer/elf/dwarf/foreigner/whatever might be, to them, against the docs, but really it may be a relationship or even an entirely different belief structure a PC's developed into over IC years through what is sometimes a very long-lived life. In fact frowning upon it may even be very much welcomed IC - but in the same breath I would encourage you not to judge OOC.

Barzalene

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2015, 10:38:30 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!


This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.
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Alesan

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2015, 10:42:16 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.


Jihelu

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2015, 10:52:53 PM »
I just hate everyone.

Jave

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 11:27:14 PM »
I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 576
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 11:40:42 PM »
Here are my thoughts on the gemmed. I don't believe they should be constantly ridiculed and tormented like breeds, even though that's how some people play it. In some senses they're like elves in that they get blamed for all sorts of things, but you have to walk a line because that elf's tribe might gang up on you later and shank you (you know, supposedly) or that 'gicker might curse you and your entire bloodline. 'Gickers are more feared than elves, though, so that worry that they're going to turn on you is, or should perhaps be, much more pronounced.

This isn't perhaps so much supported by the documentation, but it's always worked for my characters to treat the gemmed almost like they're outside the social order in a way, as members of a completely different class, made up entirely of outcasts. I feel like gemmers are the people you wish you never had to see or interact with. You wish they'd stay away from you so you could pretend they're not there. You would rather live a life without having to think about or interact with them at all. But you can't. So you stand up and move when they show up. You feel a prickling discomfort when you're forced to be around them. You're worried they're going to do something horrible to you at any given time.

But you know those magickers that you'd rather ignore are useful. The templarate keeps them around and uses them. You know that even though they're feared and shunned, a gemmer is probably considered to be worth more than you by the templarate. While they're discouraged from acting above their station, you probably also don't want to cause enough trouble that the templarate sees you as being a danger to their resources. So instead you scowl and move to the end of the bar and avoid eye contact. Why can't they just stay in their own quarter?

BadSkeelz

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2015, 11:45:06 PM »
I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

Agreed. If I can play nuanced characters capable of degrees of hate, prejudice, and compartmentalization (and not the Khornate Disciple I play on the GDB), you can too!
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Delirium

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 11:48:12 PM »
I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

Nuance is definitely possible to do, and I love seeing it, but by and large I tend to see "exaggerations" - either because that's what is easier, or that's what people are used to portraying in roleplay environments, or that's the current level of roleplay ability they possess. Should we strive for nuance? Absolutely. Expect it? Mmmmm...

I think we need to paint our world in such a way to allow for the "entry level" roleplay you are going to see from people who are just beginning to discover how awesome Armageddon is, so that they don't seem so out of place while they are learning to be the awesome, nuanced roleplayers they will grow up to be.

That means helping them in whatever way we can to ensure that the coded reality of the world enforces the roleplay aspect of the world. It is not always easy to grasp the idea of seeing the world as a living reality, as opposed to expecting them to constantly sacrifice coded gain because they have no reason not to.

For example, if you want people to play shunned mages, make the role of "shunned mage" an out-of-character enjoyable role as much as possible.

The world is a mundane's oyster when it comes to plots an interaction, for a gemmed mage they often have to go through extreme periods of isolation or give up juicy-sounding plots just to stay true to their role. A lot of players will decide instead to find a way to circumvent that and rationalize a way to participate in whatever they're missing out on, which leads to silly-feeling situations. Give them other options that are just as fun but are true to the way the role is intended to be played, and you have people who want to stay the course not just out of their ability and desire to roleplay correctly, but because it's genuinely fun to do so.

I'm not sure I explained that right, but at least I gave it a shot?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 11:50:07 PM by Delirium »
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Old Kank

  • Posts: 665
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 12:14:55 AM »
We have the tools to do nuance, no argument.  But using those tools to portray a constant stream of consciousness that gradually leads from hate to tolerance?  That requires vision, patience, and attention to detail.  Describing, through thoughts and emotes, what ultimately amounts to a gut decision?  That's tricky.  Doing all of that in such a way that the casual observer can say, "Yeah, okay, that's reaching a reasonable conclusion, and isn't a cheesy, easy out?"  That's really the tough part, in my opinion.  Trying to account for what your audience knows and expects and subtly shifting the narrative?

My hats off to you if you think it's easy.  Hell, I've had staff question my character's motives, and even after explaining in plain English narrative how decisions were reached, I've still been met with suspicion.

Iiyola

  • Posts: 3964
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 11:52:43 AM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

All of this.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

Taven

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 06:40:32 PM »
From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.

I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat. Breeds are the result of the intermingling of elves and humans. I would imagine a good chunk of characters would find that idea completely repulsive. The biggest danger of breeds is that they can pretend to be what they're not, threatening the integrity of humans. Breeds aren't hated for what they've done (though they can be), but for what they ARE. They can't ever get rid of the taint of their elven blood, it lingers always with them. They're discriminated against by not only the Noble Houses, but also by the GMH (excepting Kurac). Kadius won't touch them, Salarr won't touch them.

Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence. Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a breed would ever gain an "officer" position like Lieutenant. Upper-tier positions are humans-only, because at the end of the day, a half-elf is still just a dirty breed.

The only exception to these rules would be some Tuluki clans, but that's quite a moot point now.

As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Beethoven

  • Posts: 1323
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 06:51:40 PM »
Yes, the thing about breeds is that they're a reminder that elves and humans sometimes get it on, and that is utterly disgusting for most humans AND elves. They're unwanted by everyone.

My PCs usually hate breeds more than elves. Elves are dirty thieves, but they have their own little cliques and as long as they stay over there and don't fuck with the humans, okay. (Not that you would ever trust an elf not to fuck with the humans!) Whereas when it comes to breeds, their mere existence is offensive. They should not exist at all.

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 851
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015, 07:01:06 PM »
I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2839
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015, 07:10:45 PM »
Sadly my characters usually ration out things to the point where they really just don't care.
I'm living in a world where famine and dying over water is common.
I can hate elves and dwarves when I have 10k in the bank.
But for now.
I'll pretend I care.

Taven

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2015, 07:11:18 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!


This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

[Quoted Refugee's original post in support]


All of this.


There's a lot of players chiming in on this with the same thoughts and feelings on this one.


Here's a general brainstorming session for how to show some good ol' Tuluki hate:

  • Talk at length, in vivid detail, about the most recent Tuluki killed (in the arena/in the bug pit/in the cuddler/by a vicious mob)
  • Discuss historical victories where Allanak smashed the shit out of Tuluk
  • Talk loudly about how their tattoos mark them as a slave to a city that tried to do horrible things (murder? enslave?) its people
  • Speculate that the Tuluki in question MUST be a spy, because why else would they have their tattoos showing?
  • Just beat the shit out of them should they be in a brawl-enabled area
  • Constantly mock how they talk with their crude northern accent, act impressed that they can speak at all
  • Introduce them to as many gemmed as possible
  • Compare Tuluki culture (which allows for theft and murder) to that of elven culture
  • Make a point of always closing and checking your packs when they're in the area
  • Start a new Gaj game--Who can land the most hits on the Tuluki?
  • Say everything more slowly to them, as if not sure they will understand it
  • Spread vicious rumors about them

These are all non-lethal ways to introduce some scorn and hate into the game, though you could certainly ramp it up with attempted assassinations and the like. You can likely come up with your own ways to hate on Tuluki. Also remember that your Tuluki hate meter doesn't need to be 100% all the time. Toss out a few insults, let something else take your attention. Let how they react determine your response. Did you pick on them about showing off those tats, and they covered them? Well, they might be a filthy northerner, but at least they did something about it. You can lay off awhile, and pick on them for something else later. Maybe even buy a drink as a reward, like some sort of pet you've trained to do a particularly clever trick.

Of course, further nuances can also be developed with time, especially if the Tuluki is someone you have to interact with on a regular basis. If you come to care about a Tuluki, why not make that a point of interest? You could have a plot revolving around trying to get them to burn off or remove their tattoos, and try to get official Nakki citizen status from a templar.


As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Barzalene

  • Posts: 7745
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015, 07:14:50 PM »
I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

I was thinking about this today! Seriously. At length. I came up with a plan for how to handle the useful breed (or other undesirable in some cases.) I can't tell you, cause then you'd know who I play. But I think if you're like me and you find it hard to be rude/mean/offensive to people who are useful or just too damn pleasant it's good to think about it ahead of time. What can I do that takes into a account the culture of the world and unique people and relationships? It doesn't have to be the same solution for everyone, anything is better than ignoring one situation or the other.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Taven

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2015, 07:28:37 PM »
I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

I think you can be nuanced with this as well. If you haven't read Jave's post, quoted at the top, you should. He gave some really excellent examples.

So, let's use your example. You really hated the shit out of elves, but this one, for whatever reason, isn't so bad. Now, you know how elves are viewed--Sneaky fuckers that will steal shit off of you as soon as look at you. In fact, you're pretty sure most elves are like that. So, if this elf is your friend, you might disguise it or hide it. Maybe you insult them extra, because you don't want even them to know how you feel. You certainly don't want people REALIZING you have an elf friend. Perhaps the most you'll say about him is that "yeah, he's a sneaky fucker, but he's not as bad as some of those others". Being aware that you're the exception to the rule, and understanding how others perceive elves, is important.

It's all about the specifics and how it's handled.


Sadly my characters usually ration out things to the point where they really just don't care.
I'm living in a world where famine and dying over water is common.
I can hate elves and dwarves when I have 10k in the bank.
But for now.
I'll pretend I care.

And that can be an approach that a PC could have. Perhaps they smile regularly at a breed, elf, or even gemmer, while still showing thinks and feels to show their hate, disgust, and disdain, their utter frustration at being in the situation--Or glee that they're going to use them and stab them in the back later.

The challenge, perhaps even problem, is when characters regularly and publicly take this approach when it may not be inline with the game world. If someone is regularly hanging out with, smiling at, chatting with a (breed/gemmer/elf) in public, that makes it seem like that is the norm, since PCs are the primary representation we see in the world. Associating with undesirables should generally be seen as something that could get you discriminated against. Will Kadius hire you if they think you're friends with a gemmer? Will Salarr hire you if they think you're kanking a breed? Certainly, most esteemed Lady Payswell Valika won't. Your PC may well be concerned about the view of others in the world around them, even if they have decided for whatever reason not to be racist assholes themselves.




As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2015, 09:03:58 PM »
I've split the magicker discussion into its own topic. You can discuss it here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50043.msg908723.html#new
  

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2015, 10:13:25 PM »
From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.

I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat. Breeds are the result of the intermingling of elves and humans. I would imagine a good chunk of characters would find that idea completely repulsive. The biggest danger of breeds is that they can pretend to be what they're not, threatening the integrity of humans. Breeds aren't hated for what they've done (though they can be), but for what they ARE. They can't ever get rid of the taint of their elven blood, it lingers always with them. They're discriminated against by not only the Noble Houses, but also by the GMH (excepting Kurac). Kadius won't touch them, Salarr won't touch them.

Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence. Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a breed would ever gain an "officer" position like Lieutenant. Upper-tier positions are humans-only, because at the end of the day, a half-elf is still just a dirty breed.

The only exception to these rules would be some Tuluki clans, but that's quite a moot point now.



I've had more than one breed in Salarr. I don't know if the rules have changed since then though.
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

whitt

  • Posts: 1699
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2015, 10:16:57 PM »
I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat.

Oh I totally agree that they should be hated by the characters in game.  I was more talking about by the players of those characters.  It's pretty easy to get into a character that you as a player know is going to cause you problems.  The breeds probably aren't.  Certainly not in the way an Elf is.  In fact they're pretty useful to have around.

 
Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence.

Again, agreed, but the levels you are talking about as unattainable by breeds are also unattainable to other PCs (until very recently) so the level right below that, say, Sergeant in the Byn is the true measuring stick of what's attainable.  There have been breed sergeants and breeds almost never have a problem getting hired where they are accepted.  Try the same as an elf.  Hence, breeds are preferable to Elves in the reality of what happens.  Even though, to your earlier point, they should be receiving so much IC disgust that (a) a very few lieutenants would promote one to sergeant, knowing the sergeants get sent to speak to folks about contracts and that means being the Byn's face to nobles and GMHs and (b) many runners / troopers will just flat out refuse to take orders from.... that.
Quote from: BadSkeelz
Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2015, 10:52:37 PM »
I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Byn are anything but a bunch of rag-tag, ill-equipped and badly trained slime-balls with no manners, but that's the Byn I was initiated into. If Snugglebottoms Fale wants that damn treasure hunt, and the breed Sergeant is the only one around, well, she'll just either have to suck it up and talk to the Sarge, or send her aide into the field... or she could have her aide speak for him to that detestable creature, that'll teach him to make her soup overly spicy.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 12:58:37 AM by Fujikoma »
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2015, 01:08:10 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 01:10:52 PM by nauta »
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Barzalene

  • Posts: 7745
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2015, 03:59:24 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.


If you feel that way, you feel that way. I won't talk you out of it.  I'm too old to vaguebook. I'm at an age where I'm either blunt or equivocal. But I don't vaguebook.

I can't speak for anyone else. I like you guys. I log on every day and play with you guys. I'm glad you show up. I don't have any desire to make anyone feel bad about doing so.

But when I see trends that seem to fly in the face of docs, I start to worry that we're slipping away from canon. This has come up a thousand times over the last ten years. I'm never coming on the boards to put down an individual, but instead to say, (and I think we should all be safeguarding the game world atmosphere) "Hey we're drifting, let's paddle it back."

Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 04:09:02 PM »
I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

This'll be viewed as crotchety, but this all kind of feels like you are 'vagueposting' against particular Tuluki PCs IG right now and particular PCs IG right now that are 'protecting' them (as well as the breeds, etc.).  There's obviously no way I can show this (I don't play any more), but granted that the number of those PCs is bound to be extremely low, my money is on a bit of vagueposting.  I'm sorry if it isn't what you meant to do.

There's a really, really thin line between positive advice for roleplaying racism, breeds, displaced Tulikis, and 'vagueposting', and it's really hard to know when you might've crossed it.

Obviously, one solution is to file off a friendly player complaint.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, I was just reading through reviews of Armageddon on mudconnect, and basically the most recent ones all have the same complaint (admittedly from earlier this year / late last year): that vagueposting and the gdb is a bit of a turnoff.

This doesn't really have much to do with how to RP hate anyway.


If you feel that way, you feel that way. I won't talk you out of it.  I'm too old to vaguebook. I'm at an age where I'm either blunt or equivocal. But I don't vaguebook.

I can't speak for anyone else. I like you guys. I log on every day and play with you guys. I'm glad you show up. I don't have any desire to make anyone feel bad about doing so.

But when I see trends that seem to fly in the face of docs, I start to worry that we're slipping away from canon. This has come up a thousand times over the last ten years. I'm never coming on the boards to put down an individual, but instead to say, (and I think we should all be safeguarding the game world atmosphere) "Hey we're drifting, let's paddle it back."



If there was ever a situation where you could be the change, this is it.

If you feel these Tulukis/magickers/breeds/elves should be treated more poorly, then treat them more poorly.

Non-issue.
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2015, 04:15:04 PM »
Then vaguebook on the GDB when said breed/Tuluki's friends proceed to murder the tok-shit out of you.
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

Iiyola

  • Posts: 3964
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

In Dreams

  • Posts: 172
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2015, 06:51:28 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?

Taven

  • Helper
  • Posts: 2185
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2015, 06:53:28 PM »
I'm going to change the topic just a little... Don't worry, it's still hate-themed.

.....half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

We talk about more hate for elves and breeds, but how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?



As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Iiyola

  • Posts: 3964
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2015, 06:56:32 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

Inks

  • Posts: 1309
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2015, 07:01:59 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?



We talk about more hate for elves and breeds, but how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?

The racism for these races is shown through exclusion. Many plots are not available to these races but you aren't usually going to be a dick to somebody who call pull your arms off.

There could be more disdain towards dwarves but I have never noticed a lack of racism in Allanak. Dwarves do need another city clan to join perhaps but to be fair, they are quite unpredictable unless you know their focus (if not played as humans). Giants are patronised and looked down upon constantly (In the non literal sense).


« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:08:25 PM by Inks »
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In Dreams

  • Posts: 172
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2015, 07:42:19 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

But you really don't know what's gone into other PCs' relationships. Maybe those allies were hard-earned. Maybe they're bought and paid for. Maybe they just have something other people want.

Even if my whole family hated, like, left-handed people, if a guy walked in here right now, told me a hilarious joke, and then tried to hand me ten large from that big left hand, I'd take it with a smile! If my mom called me up asking me why I like this left-handed guy, I'd say, tough shit, I like my ten large, Mom, and besides, he's funny too! Even if every part of me doesn't like his stupid left hand, I'm probably going to like that guy. If I've known him for years and he's always been good to me, I'm probably going to even like him better than I like most right-handed people; even if, deep down, I still really hate left-handed people, and I hate that guy's left-handedness, there are ways he can make me think he's alright.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:44:30 PM by In Dreams »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6233
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2015, 07:59:00 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

Keywords there are 'that easily'.  Over the course of time, incredibly useful people tend to gain allies.  Elves and breeds included.  Documentation makes it so that those with minimal dealings with them will likely be suspicious and disgusted.  Those who have been put into the position to be in close proximity over the course of time, however, may very well decide it's in their interest to be more than just a casual observer of bad things happening to said interest.

I find racist behavior more easily explained than gemmed behavior.  You -know- what's up with races, you may find it disgusting, but it's not like they're doing things that you have no idea if you're going to fall over dead in ten years because of it...they're just ugly, or gross, or trying to screw you over in deals.  The same way people ask for exceptions in how accepting they are of such things, there are also exceptions in some chosen few of those demographics moving a bit higher on the social ladder than most ever get the opportunity to.  It happens, usually over a long course of time, and usually through merit to the correct people.
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Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2015, 08:01:15 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Be stronger or whine longer.

I've played extreme assholes who beat the living shit out of breeds and elves and gemmers regularly but I was strong enough people didn't question my shit. It was be on my side or be in my path.
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Iiyola

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2015, 08:34:01 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

But you really don't know what's gone into other PCs' relationships. Maybe those allies were hard-earned. Maybe they're bought and paid for. Maybe they just have something other people want.

Okay, so the whole gemmed/breed argument thing is invalid I suppose.
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Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2015, 08:37:18 PM »
I think what people are trying to say is it's never black and white, yet some people play it as though it always is. Oddly, this thread is titled 50 Shades of Hate... I know it's a play on a book title, BUT, appropriate to this, as well.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2015, 08:37:30 PM »
A year and a half or so ago in Tuluk, some dude was RPing a dwarf being silly and being very insistant about my (very much human) PC 'being in his seat' in the Tooth, going as far as to try and drag him off until my dude would give up and relocate because it wasn't worth the effort being stubborn vs a dwarf. Fortunately, after this had went on for a number of times, an actual third PC started playing during our times(offpeak life sucks), and they were a cavalier to boot. Excellent, I thought, a fellow well-bred human to agree about this dwarf acting out so much.

My character was told to 'stop being so racist' that day and cast admonishing looks, for he should feel bad for being such a mean person.

Also, I'm still not on any side of this debate. It seems like a classical bravery debate, and you people are managing to end up nowhere arguing real soon.

Still, some people are going to end up getting good ideas because of this thread, so I still like to read it.
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wizturbo

  • Posts: 2489
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2015, 08:38:48 PM »
How much you hate someone is not really the topic.  No one cares what your character thinks and feels, they only care about what actions they take, because that's all anyone outside of staff sees.

It's all about how much you can get away with, and under what circumstances would your character let their inner racist out to play?  That's the real question.

    Case study #1 -   A half-giants or muls

I've had characters that really hate half-giants, they think they're smelly, annoying, and stupid.  Muls are hairless, ugly halfbreeds in their own right.  You know how many of my characters have said that to their face?  Zero.  They're monsters.  They'll fucking kill you.  You say that kind of thing behind their back, or trick them into getting themselves into deep shit...unless you're say...a Byn Sergeant.  If your Byn Sergeant hates half-giants, and has their whole crew of mercs with them, they can say whatever the hell they want.  They can mock that half-giant, throw rotten fruit at them, etc...because that brute strength doesn't mean too much to them.  Of course the same is true for plenty of PC's that don't have much reason to fear them.


    Case study #2 - A half-breed...unaffiliated/not many friends

Prejudice towards half-breeds is extremely common place.  Elves don't like them, humans don't like them...they're relatively weak racially, which makes your average breed not much of a threat to anyone who can handle themselves in a fight.   If the halfbreed has no friends to back them up, and hasn't displayed some unusual amount of skill that could make them dangerous...just about everyone can act prejudice towards them.  What're they going to do about it?  Cry?  You can beat the snot out of them, piss on them, pretty much do anything you want as long as it isn't going to get the militia involved.  These are your natural targets for overt racial prejudice.


    Case Study #3 - A half-breed...as a Runner in the T'zai Byn

The same as #2 true in this case...except you have to weigh the risk of what happens if that Runner has friends.  Maybe their Sergeant decides that they don't like you messing with their breed.  Maybe that Sarge thinks only his people should be able to beat the crap out of their little punk halfbreed, not you.  A cautious prejudice person might want to gauge that Sergeant's personality first, before giving the breed a wedgie.  Of course, you can talk behind their back, accuse them of stealing shit, or a variety of other indirect forms of prejudice...but you might not talk shit outright without provocation.

This is by far the most common halfbreed PC you encounter in-game, so it's no surprise that they're not harassed to the same degree you'd see case #2.


    Case Study #4 - A half-breed...whose somehow managed to fight their way up to Sergeant in the T'zai Byn

This is an entirely different ball of wax.  If this motherfucker managed to claw their way up to Sergeant, they're probably one hard ass.  She'll probably kick your teeth in if you start shit with her.  Sure, you can start shit and act prejudice towards her, but don't be surprised if you find yourself visiting the physician afterwards...most smart people would probably keep their mouth's shut, and only talk shit about her behind her back....unless you're say...a noble.  That noble doesn't give a shit how tough that half-breed Sergeant.  They have no reason to watch what they say, because if she so much as lifts her pinkie threateningly in his direction he can snap his fingers and have her thrown into the Arena to wrestle with a Gaj.

This is super rare.  Very few half-breeds manage to gain such status, and frankly, this is probably the highest rank a halfbreed could ever aspire to...so even these utter bad asses are subjected to racial prejudice...by the very people who entrusted them with a middle manager job!  So even here, it's pretty pervasive, it just isn't in your face.  

« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 08:42:01 PM by wizturbo »

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2015, 08:59:25 PM »
Case Study #5: Lone-foot Elf

The lone-foot elf, you hate them, you despise them, not only are they elven, but they aren't even liked by other elves, at least at first, because they haven't been tested. No one trusts them, they know it, in fact, everyone is out to get them, and they know it. Others laugh, but the elf continues out of sheer pride and stubbornness, yes, laugh, because, I'm out to get you[/b] too. If anything goes wrong, the tribeless elf did it. Why? The tribeless elf has much less to fear than the elf with the tribe. Personal gain lost? To an elf, this is nothing near as threatening as a tribe lost, nor is their very life. These are the elves with nothing to lose, who will take anything not nailed down, shank whoever they damn well please, anywhere they damn well please, and the longer they survive, the more of a menace they become. A tribeless elf is either a completely self-interested monstrosity, or a pathetic weirdo with breedy attachment issues trying to rebuild their loss tribe, to no avail. Both are highly dangerous, just in different ways.

Case Study #6: The tribal Elf

Now, THESE are the ones you need to be careful around, even if their tribe is virtual, you should assume, for all intents and purposes, that it is real, and that it's extent of secretive influence and resources are unknown. They embody what an elf is, with all the strengths and weaknesses that come with that. Yes, yes, you could beat the elf up in the Gaj, maybe because you know OOCly the elf's tribe is virtual and there will be no lashback. But tell me... if there was a coded c-elf tribe, with PC representation, would the player make the same decision? This is like if the SLK was virtual, just rampaging the Pah without concern. I mean, granted, the SLK is much more powerful to actually deserve a PC presence, when you see an SLK in Blackwing, you don't just fear and respect that lone PC's savage and hostile attitude and appearance, no, because you KNOW that fellow has hundreds of tribals, all very deadly, that has their back. This is the same in some ways for Sun Runners. Some PCs behave differently with elves with coded tribes than those with virtual, and while under certain circumstances this is understandable, there's more to lose here.

But any elf is a dangerous foe. An elf with allies is much more dangerous and tricky. Given that our PCs are, as we're repeatedly told, not to behave suicidally, then we should likely be slightly uncomfortable picking shit with an elf and, if a breed is available, or maybe even a dwarf, go after them first.

I saw a very well-played dwarf-hater when I started playing. He was a tricky, nasty, mean-ass human. He was nice to my breed, he just REALLY hated dwarves. My breed liked dwarves though, so at the time, I didn't like him. I have to say he generated some interesting plots that involved many people and lead to a Tuluki T'zai Byn Sergeant getting interrogated and getting a cross burned into his forehead in Allanak with his antics in retaliation for, something, but, I remember how I loved to hate that guy, but it was like, one of the last stump-haters I have ever seen.
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Desertman

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »
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Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2015, 09:15:08 PM »


Is the one with the ugly expression Bobby Fisher? I think it's because of the bad lighting.
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whitt

  • Posts: 1699
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2015, 09:15:45 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?

I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.
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Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2015, 09:20:35 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?

I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.

Whitt, this makes zero sense when dealing with a breed who has built up some real status.

EDIT: Nevermind, kneejerk response, we may be in agreement here. But if you're going to comment on this, please, expand more and explain. Do you think that same crowd would rally behind the mundane human if he was beating up an Oashi gemmed? I've, seen a PC harass an Oashi gemmed before, with horrific results... for the mundane human.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:23:41 PM by Fujikoma »
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whitt

  • Posts: 1699
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2015, 09:24:18 PM »
how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?

I'm already on record as saying that, short of "human-only" clans, dwarves are viewed as preferable to humans, and half-giants are at the top of the "most desired" list.  I can't say I have ever seen a case of race-based discrimination against either of these races outside of a role that was geard strictly toward humans (eg Oash/AoD/Nobility).  The AoD and Nobles make quick exceptions for half-giants too.  The coded ability of half-giants and OOC expectation that the player behind the half-giant has proven competent enough to earn that role probably play a not small amount into that treatment.  I'm quite sure there aren't many AoD sergeants that would bat an eye (OOCly) at recruiting dwarves either, but they aren't allowed.

As an example - How many Templars do you see roll out with their trusted human bodyguard?  And how many are always protected by one or more half-giants?  Perhaps they have a better leash and/or superior half-giants, but just a point for discussion.
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nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2015, 09:26:42 PM »
D-Man, easier said than done when you're the only PC in the whole tavern who expresses such disdain while the rest is bestest friends with said gemmed/breed/elf. And that happens more often than not.

Well, maybe the person in question is doing a good job of surrounding themselves with allies, then?
This is exactly the core of my agreement with Refugee's statement. Such people shouldn't have allies that easily.

How do you know how hard they worked for those allies?

I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.

Agreed.  A lot of my time playing pariahs was spent encouraging people to hate me, by bringing that aspect of the virtual world to life.  Most people prefer to 'ignore' pariahs, which is so boring.  Presumably they are afraid that the pariah knows some PC assassin who will wreck their shit so it's easier to just sit and pretend to be afk.

I still think 'minorities' should be karma-required: anyone who is not an Allanaki human.


as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2015, 09:29:40 PM »
Most of the VNPC population is made up of standard commoners. PC's are the guys who go out and roflstomp meks.

If those VNPCs want to step up....start steppin'....but most would sit quietly with their mouths shut, just like the other PC's who are afraid because they aren't strong enough to back their position either.

Granted, I agree, most of the VNPC population WOULD have that stance, and they are picking on elves, and breeds, and sneering at gemmers....just not the ones who are fucking badasses (be that through personal power or allies). They are doing those things to the other VNPC "undesirables" that are safer to sneer at.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:31:28 PM by Desertman »
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whitt

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2015, 09:32:52 PM »
I support Iiyola's position here.  In theory, most of the vNPC populace in a place like the Gaj should be echoing a loud "Yeah!" right behind the elf/breed/gemmed hater and shouting down even those hard won allies in sheer numbers if not with threats.  Obviously that can't be the case that the vNPCs are animated all the time nor do I think that everyone that bad mouths a pariah is always going to be an instant champion of the masses, but I do think it falls on the player of the pariah-role, when it makes sense, to bring that to life.

Whitt, this makes zero sense when dealing with a breed who has built up some real status.

EDIT: Nevermind, kneejerk response, we may be in agreement here. But if you're going to comment on this, please, expand more and explain. Do you think that same crowd would rally behind the mundane human if he was beating up an Oashi gemmed? I've, seen a PC harass an Oashi gemmed before, with horrific results... for the mundane human.

Oashi gemmed is a tough call that's an employee of a Noble house... I don't think I'd randomly go breaking a noble's toys.  The same would go for a breed that was actively supported by a GMH, like a member of Kurac's Fist, or especially (in the Gaj) a Byn breed... if the breed didn't ask for it.  Then all the shitcloaks would probably let the sharp/breed take their pounding and just make sure they didn't actually get killed, just dragged back to Bones, but I digress.

All of the above are big-time support.  That's a lot different then the unaffiliated breed/elf/gemmed that has two - three unaffiliated buddies at the bar just being loud.  They ain't bad.  They ain't nothing.  Hence, I'd put it on the player of the pariah to gauge when they should get their unwanted selves out before things turn ugly.
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Fujikoma

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2015, 09:55:47 PM »
Good point, Whitt, but what of minor merchant houses? Should they not also be exempt? Should we encourage this black and white play when newer players aren't familiar with clan identifiers or rank identifiers? Further, even indies can be seriously deadly, should we just ignore this foolishly?
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Beethoven

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2015, 10:52:57 PM »
I don't think anyone should be beating up ANY gemmed at the tavern, Oashi or no. Even if they're successful and the gemmed is getting their ass kicked by the mundane, it would likely still cause a lot of fear. Who knows when the gemmed might go nuts and lose control of their magick? Maybe they'll curse the whole room in anger, or maybe even inadvertently. Best to leave that volatile SOB alone.

FantasyWriter

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Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2015, 10:57:09 PM »
I'm going to change the topic just a little... Don't worry, it's still hate-themed.

.....half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

We talk about more hate for elves and breeds, but how do people see racism against half-giants and dwarves playing out? Is it at a realistic level? What should that level be?





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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2839
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2015, 11:19:19 PM »
You tell me I should hate dwarves and Half giants.
But they are just so damn cute

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2015, 12:04:19 AM »
There is a key here, children, and this is that your hate must be all-encompasing, aslo you're a fool because you have no idea how hate works.
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Inks

  • Posts: 1309
Re: 50 Shades of Hate
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2015, 01:19:33 AM »
Feel free to hate any dwarf, mul or giant pcs as openly as you want.



I feel PC populations are very consistently matching the world lately, also. Kudos to you, Armers.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 01:28:01 AM by Inks »
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