Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Taijan]

The crotch seams started way too high, and they weren't baggy despite supposedly being large.  It was almost like they were made for someone with subtle anatomical differences.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6677166_differences-women_s-men_s-sweat-pants.html

Those grey ones look pretty nice.

[LauraMars]

I never thought about the difference. i thought if sweatpants were baggy enough nothing mattered.  The more you know. ==✯

I guess the guy hoodies I sometimes wear do tend to have an annoying tendency to fall off because the shoulders are so wide

glad we've cleared that up

[nauta]

But!  If we had further followups on the issue of sweatpants, should we file a Staff Complaint or just a Request/Question?  Thanks in advance!

[Revenant]

But!  If we had further followups on the issue of sweatpants, should we file a Staff Complaint or just a Request/Question?  Thanks in advance!

Going to mastercraft some sweatpants. In the notes section "make too small for Taijan to wear".

[Taijan]

[Bast]

I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.

Sounds neat do you remember the name?

[Eurynomos]

I skipped from page 2 of the discussion to page 9.

Would do it again, we're talking about sweatpants?

[Case]

I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.

Sweet, so we can remove females from the game after all

[musashi]

Then we can finally enforce the socialist leftist gay agenda of the nazi liberals?

[Desertman]

Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling.

The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!".


(Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)

[Beethoven]

Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling.

The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!".


(Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)

Yeah, you don't seem to get what I am saying. You seem to think that if women have any characteristics at all that separate them from men, then we automatically get to mock women for deviating from them in any way, and the same goes for men. I just don't agree with that all-or-nothing, slippery-slope approach.

Neither should you, and here's why.

You DO seem to recognize that breasts ARE a characteristic that women on Zalanthas have that men don't typically have, right? I mean, you acknowledged that a dude with breasts on Zalanthas would likely be seen as a mutie, so, yeah, you do. So, should a flatter-chested woman whose breasts maybe aren't visible when she wears clothing be mocked and ridiculed for looking too much like a man, too? I mean, according to your argument, she should, right, since that's literally one of the only two things that visibly separate men from women, if you're correct about the utter lack of secondary sex characteristics. But the answer is no, because looking like a man isn't a negative thing on Zalanthas, and neither is looking like a woman. It's a total non-issue, because being a man and being a woman are equal, and neither is associated with "strength" or "weakness" or being "nurturing" or "protective" or any other words like that.

[Desertman]

Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.

The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling.

The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!".


(Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)

Yeah, you don't seem to get what I am saying. You seem to think that if women have any characteristics at all that separate them from men, then we automatically get to mock women for deviating from them in any way, and the same goes for men. I just don't agree with that all-or-nothing, slippery-slope approach.

Neither should you, and here's why.

You DO seem to recognize that breasts ARE a characteristic that women on Zalanthas have that men don't typically have, right? I mean, you acknowledged that a dude with breasts on Zalanthas would likely be seen as a mutie, so, yeah, you do. So, should a flatter-chested woman whose breasts maybe aren't visible when she wears clothing be mocked and ridiculed for looking too much like a man, too? I mean, according to your argument, she should, right, since that's literally one of the only two things that visibly separate men from women, if you're correct about the utter lack of secondary sex characteristics. But the answer is no, because looking like a man isn't a negative thing on Zalanthas, and neither is looking like a woman. It's a total non-issue, because being a man and being a woman are equal, and neither is associated with "strength" or "weakness" or being "nurturing" or "protective" or any other words like that.

You are very much of the opinion that I am stating everyone has to follow a "middle ground androgynous" template.

When in fact I am not stating that in any way. I believe if you read back, I specifically stated if anything, that's exactly what I'm not saying.

You are viewing my opinion as this:

100% of people are androgynous.



Which isn't what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is this:

20% of people are androgynous (You can't tell much of a difference at all, if any at all.)
20% are women with masculine qualities (You know it's a woman, but she has very "manly" features and characteristics.)
20% are men with feminine qualities (You know it's a man, but he has very "feminine" features and characteristics.)
20% are men who "look like men".
20% are women who "look like women".

What you are saying is I'm taking a hardline stance that everyone has to look the same way.

What I'm actually saying is I'm taking a hardline stance that everyone doesn't look the same way....but instead that no single "gender stereotype" has the upper hand across the board.

There is just as much of -this- as there is of -that-....so you can play it however you want and look however you want in terms of gender stereotypes, and nobody can call you out on it.

You are acting like I'm trying to force people to play a certain way. What I'm trying to do is explain to everyone that everyone has the freedom to play exactly what they want on this front.

[Beethoven]

Let me clarify, Dman, sorry, because you keep repeating the androgynous thing and I think you misunderstood because I did not express myself clearly. When I say 100% of people IG are androgynous, I am saying that is because they are androgynous in the context of the game world, because men and women look pretty much exactly the same. If you look at a person who does not have visible boobs or a bulge, it is impossible to tell if they are a man or a woman. In that sense, 100% of people IG are androgynous, or more accurately, "androgynous" is an utterly meaningless term.

[Desertman]

Let me clarify, Dman, sorry, because you keep repeating the androgynous thing and I think you misunderstood because I did not express myself clearly. When I say 100% of people IG are androgynous, I am saying that is because they are androgynous in the context of the game world, because men and women look pretty much exactly the same. If you look at a person who does not have visible boobs or a bulge, it is impossible to tell if they are a man or a woman. In that sense, 100% of people IG are androgynous, or more accurately, "androgynous" is an utterly meaningless term.

You are absolutely right. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I admit that might be because of my lack of an ability to understand.

But, either way...I still don't know what you are trying to tell me. So, I will bow out and agree to disagree with you....or maybe even agree with you....I'm not sure if I do or not....because I just do not get what is being said.

Either way...I give you a handshake on the issue and invite you to play whatever you want and I will do the same. 

[BadSkeelz]

This is a lot of trouble for the one trans character we get per King's Age.

[Beethoven]

I'm going to give it one more crack. I think I am a complete idiot at expressing myself, and I just want to try again, even though you've now thrown in the towel.

If men and women look exactly the same IG other than females having boobs and men having a bulge, then all people are "androgynous" by IG standards--I guess unless they have very prominent boobs or a very prominent bulge. That would be the IG equivalent of being very visibly one sex or the other. Otherwise, it's always a bit of a gray area, according to the lore as you have described it. If women are just as likely to have beards or Adam's apples as men, and men are just as likely to have wide hips as women, and everyone's voices are in the same spectrum with no tendencies between the genders, the ONLY way to tell them apart is by the breasts or the genitalia. So to me, that means a lot of people are "androgynous." Maybe not by Earth standards, sure, but in the sense that it's often nearly impossible to discern the difference, since there are only two characteristics that can be used to do so, and they are not always visible. Perhaps it's the wrong word, but that is what I meant.

Yes, I will play whatever I want, and you will play whatever you want. It just bothers me that I seem to be really stupid at getting my point across since both you and Case seem to have totally misunderstood.

[Desertman]

I'm going to give it one more crack. I think I am a complete idiot at expressing myself, and I just want to try again, even though you've now thrown in the towel.

If men and women look exactly the same IG other than females having boobs and men having a bulge, then all people are "androgynous" by IG standards--I guess unless they have very prominent boobs or a very prominent bulge. That would be the IG equivalent of being very visibly one sex or the other. Otherwise, it's always a bit of a gray area, according to the lore as you have described it. If women are just as likely to have beards or Adam's apples as men, and men are just as likely to have wide hips as women, and everyone's voices are in the same spectrum with no tendencies between the genders, the ONLY way to tell them apart is by the breasts or the genitalia. So to me, that means a lot of people are "androgynous." Maybe not by Earth standards, sure, but in the sense that it's often nearly impossible to discern the difference, since there are only two characteristics that can be used to do so, and they are not always visible. Perhaps it's the wrong word, but that is what I meant.

Yes, I will play whatever I want, and you will play whatever you want. It just bothers me that I seem to be really stupid at getting my point across since both you and Case seem to have totally misunderstood.

Fair enough.

[musashi]

I'm actually surprised the discussion has remained civil for so long, given how politically charged the topic is IRL.

Reading over this thread, it doesn't seem like there are any actual disagreements ... just people so ready to break out the ideological pitch forks that they pounce on what they assume to be intolerant bigoted trans-phobia, when it's actually just their own opinion being expressed with a different sex of words.

Normally that's enough to pick a fight. Glad it hasn't.

[Jingo]

Sorry about the pitchfork. But it isn't just ideological.

Enviroment may have more to do with differences in gender than you might think.

Listen to this if you want a bit more information on my point of view on the issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Ideas/ID/2309328901/

[musashi]

Jingo I think it's been covered already that when I referenced "gender" I was referring to the concept now re-branded as "gender identity".

So understand that I was talking about this:

Gender identity refers to "one's sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender" (American
Psychological Association, 2006). When one's gender identity and biological sex are not
congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf.
Gainor, 2000).

Not this.

Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.

Is that podcast talking about how "gender identity" is the result of environment? Or "gender"? If it's the former I'll give it a listen because I disagree. If it's the latter then I don't disagree.

[Jingo]

I suppose I don't see an incredible difference between either definition. Since one's sense of oneness as a sex is going to be wrapped up in questions of acceptable gender performance no matter how hard you try to separate them.

[musashi]

So you think that whether someone identifies as a male or female in their own mind is the product of the environment they grew up in? I've seen that position from some people on the far left before and I'm always amazed at the apparent double thick it presents.

Homosexuals are born that way but transsexuals aren't? Or do you think that children can be taught to be gay as well?

I'm on the other side of the fence. I don't think any of that is a choice and exposure to it as a child is just going to engender tolerance rather than conversion.

But it seems like some people want gender roles to be totally a social construct in order to push their strain of feminism ... yet they have to reconcile that with the trans-gendered community they are inadvertently casting to the wolves by saying "Yeah well ... you actually weren't born that way." in the same breath.

I actually suspect changing the definition of gender role to gender ... and gender to gender identity was an attempt to split that baby.

But alright, I'll listen to the podcast you posted. While I'm doing that, why don't you give the story of David Reimer a read and then we'll take the topic to PM's.

[Beethoven]

EDIT: No longer relevant

[Beethoven]

EDIT: Also no longer relevant