Author Topic: Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!  (Read 3274 times)

The warlady of blood

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« on: October 15, 2002, 12:14:31 AM »
I've been meaning to touch on this issue for a while, and since I'm watching a character in-game being brutally punished in gorey detail, I figured it a good time to write the post.

The issue is pride and that people have far too much of it. It just seems so unrealistic that so many characters would rather die or be tortured for hours on end, then to suffer some sort of humbling or humiliating experance. I've seen people draw blades and attack, rather then lick a templars boot. I've seen people spit in the face of soldiers and flee, rather then bend over and accept a spanking with a wooden paddle in front of an entire tavern (which was funny as hell, by the way). I've seen runners defy their sergeants at every possible turn, despite the fact said Sergeants have the power to punish make them live in the near toxic depths of the latrines, whip them, and even throw them right out of the company. I've seen people in Tor and Oash and Borsail, elites with an easy life defy nobles out of pride.

While I'm not saying this isn't possible, the sheer number of people who would rather die then swollow their pride is alarming. There is a lot of fun to be had from seeing your character humiliated, and nine out of ten times it won't cost them their lives.

I think a lot of it comes from players who feel that its THEM being humiliated, rather then their character. Not always the case I'm sure, but in some situations I can't help but think 'What the hell?' because it just seems so completely out of character for them.

Not meaning to pick on anyone or sound like an elitist asshole, nor is this directed anyone. Just something I think could use a little discussion.

crymerci

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2002, 12:19:03 AM »
I think it's just hard for some people to get into the mindset of a non-democratic society with little regard for human rights. Some take our freedoms for granted and think they should exist in any society. This is why you also get nobles associating like equals with commoners and people eager to join rebel organizations.
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

creeper386

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2002, 01:04:05 AM »
Coming from characters that could act this way... Not disrespecting a noble or a templar... or anything... but just some people here and there... But anyways... The timing seems incredibly untimely... But oh well... I won't even assume... But for me there is always a reason for the character to act prideful but it isn't always pride... Just looks that way...


Creeper
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Quick Death

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2002, 01:11:43 AM »
I think that some people really just can't accept that life is not fair, further I think that some leaders just can't accept that some times you need to break a few eggs.  I have watched insaboridnation that screamed for a sever beating or death get punished with manual labor for a day or two.  I have seen orginizations that don't accept pride full foolishness, and do a good job keeping it that way.  I think a lot of people that do get the crap kicked out of them might truly be surprised.  When their argument of fairness does not work.

I know it is a common argument whenever anyone points out something flawed, but some times death is preferable.  I know that I had one character intentionally provoke a templar into rage after he was captured to get him to give a swift death before he was identified.  The character in question knew that he was going to be killed, but he also knew that if the templar knew who he was, his death would be long and painful.

crymerci

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2002, 01:21:46 AM »
Edit: for some reason my previous post double-posted.
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

Cerebus

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2002, 01:34:42 AM »
You all make me so proud, so proud!

Bestatte

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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2002, 07:18:42 AM »
In a game filled with such delicious intrigue, you'd think bending over and taking it could have such marvelous potential for revenge!

Of course I'd guess that every "free" character (meaning, not a slave) would have a breaking point. That one thing they'd never do for any reason, ever, and would fall on a sword first.

But other than that one thing (whatever that is), I think it would much more fun to take whatever's dished out, and then serving up a dish of your own later on.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Crystal D

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2002, 04:59:35 AM »
Welcome to the wonderful world of...

                                    **CLICHES**

That's right!  What you are seeing here is a prime example of the 'I bow to no man' cliche, which I find especially prevailent in newbies.  Why do you have an unusual number of characters who act this way? It's -cool-.  The story goes like this:

     Once upon a time there was a young, handsome, hotblooded detective/fighter pilot/warrior/whatever who  -knew- he was the best damn whatever ever.  Then one day, his chief/commanding officer/templar/whatever told him to do something THE MAN'S WAY!  
You know what our hero did?  He told his boss to take a hike and enjoy sitting behind his -desk-.  The boss proceeded to shake his fist in fury, screaming our hero's name.  The hero then went off, and defeated the EVIL syndicate member/russian/dragon in a display of kickass martial arts. In the end, the stuffy guy behind the desk learned to loosen up and 'party down', and our hero got the hot chick.


I mean WOW!  He -TOTALLY- told the authority figure to shove off, and still won the day!  Problem here is that armag tries, to an extent, to have realistic characters with realistic reactions.  The hero in my wonderful story happened to be a HERO.  

Basic problem with armag is that everyone can't be a hero - everyone isn't good enough to be a hero.  Yes, this silly 'I bow to no man' schtick can potentially work, but only if your character is DAMN GOOD, and you happen to be a pretty kickass player.  Otherwise you just look like an idiot trying to be cool.  I know -damn- well that if I tried that particular cliche I'd be a laughing stock.

'Alright Runner - lap around the compound.'
'Why don't YOU do a lap around the compound, Sarge?'
*severe beatings ensue*

-Crystal D
Darnell sleeps with goats.'
'Lysinder is much less finicky.'

-From the Shield of Ignorance

tland

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2002, 05:18:43 AM »
I've had a couple charactors who ICly COULDN'T swallow there pride due to loyalty to someone else...

ex: tortured with limbs cut out but still wouldn't tell the name of there friend knowing they would die the same death eighther way.

But on the other hand I've had charactors who WOULD kiss the templars boots only to have the boot shoved up your arse.

As for the byn. The byn aren't a REAL military unit noone there is realy working there hardest to suport there family or anything,(No matter whats in there Background there only feeding themselves)
And most of them are there for training, they have nowhere else to go, or there thieves using the byn as a hideout.


In that kind of situation they don't HAVE to give there sergeant that much respect.
Part of it comes from a relaxed atmosphere, One of my dead chars was byn and was told he was too stiff and needed to relaxe around officers ICly.

as in soluting too quick, not speaking till spoken too, the marines kinda stuff.

They ICly know that within another Game month they will be out of the byn eighther raiding people on the road or working in another group.

There future job is secured and the byn don't realy matter too much after the first few months of training.

(Sure you'll be buffer if you wait but a 1 year byn vet dwarf can take down raptors if they trained right.)

When I was byn I was always more woried about getting whipped then getting expelled.
If you get expelled so what, its the byn they don't get much respect anyway from noble houses so if your going to a house they'll still most likely accept you.
Same with militia or private orgs.

As for the latrine, I've seen SOME good RP there but most of the time its just someone sets there ldesc as "Is shoveling shite" then emotes

emote starts shoveling shite.

Not realy too bad except for the stained shoes.

What I would realy love to see is a Mean Arse byn sergaent who would flog anyone who gave him crap and made you emote doing pushups. 1 pushup at a time each different.
(No command stacking :P)

Now THAT might make the byn a little more difficult.

*Actualy Saw a half-elf runner jackslap an officer and only get a warning about it*
ot Milk?

Nineveh

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2002, 07:47:01 AM »
I don't understand it either. If I tell someone to shape up or get punished, I mean it. I'm not one to stint on punishment and in a military or quasi-military organization, insubordination -should- get punished, and at the most severe level, execution.

I think part of it is because people find being the bad parts of being a leader hard to swallow. Or as Terry Prachet wrote in the book Mort:

"This king," said Mort, as a forest zipped beneath them, "Is he good or bad?"

I NEVER CONCERN MYSELF WITH SUCH THINGS, said Death. HE'S NO WORSE THAN ANY OTHER KING, I IMAGINE.

"Does he have people put to death?" said Mort, and remembering who he was talking to added, "Saving y'honor's presence, of course."

SOMETIMES. tHERE ARE SOME THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO WHEN YOU'RE A KING.

It's this sort of thing that is hard for some players to palate. When you're in a leadership position, there's some things you have to do to keep order, whether you're a Byn sergeant, Noble house officer, Merchant guard captain, militia sergeant, noble or templar, and that's to keep order, whether it is social, political or military. These things range from humiliation (putting the lower ranked in their place) to punishment (scrub the latrines/no training/demotion) to capital punishment/execution for their behavior. It is -imperative- that this happens, especially in military organizations. Why? Lower ranks must do as the commanding officer states, because the officer has to know whether this person is fit to be brought on missions that put themselves and others in danger. Someone who doesn't listen or have the discipline to control themselves is a danger, not only to themselves, but to their teammates and leaders.

In fact, many of the runners from my stints as byn pc's that I saw die, died because they didn't listen or blew off orders. That's why pc's that do follow orders generally are looked more favorably on by superior officers.It isn't ass-kissing, in some cases its a measure of trust and possibly life and death. Officers generally tend to trust their underlings who follow orders, even if the orders are demeaning. Officers don't trust underlings who talk back, talk smack, don't follow orders or act like they are god's gift to the world. In fact, many officers/superiors tend to kick people like that either out of the org or execute them. (or they get themselves killed).

Put it into a real life perspective: This person is employing you. They are assisting in your survival and all they ask is that you follow orders.

Now, as for the fantasy aspect, nobles and templars, I -don't- understand why people shit on them icly. I like how the person phrased it.. you're brought up, usually, expecting a noble to treat you like shit. It's usually better if you're not noticed at all, because not being noticed means you aren't going to possibly have bad things happen to you, like inadvertantly offending someone important. If you are noticed by someone like that, and they are relatively mild/nice to you, then consider it a blessing and this noble is a unique and rare occurance that is a once in a lifetime thing.

That being said, I think it's absolutely retarded when someone singles out a noble in a display of mockery/outrage because the crimcode doesn't back that the noble is within their rights to have their guards brutally and/or lethally administer due course for insolence. And the annoying thing is that I've occassionally witnessed templars treat nobles as though they were rich commoners themselves.

I don't see the whole "revenge" thing, because like Clegane stated in a post, commoners aren't worth these whole huge assassination plots. They have no rights. Sure, they can't just be grabbed up off the street and beaten, but if someone insults a noble, the noble should be able to retaliate to make -sure- that other commoners know that this kind of thing isn't to be suffered.
se K.Y. jelly to grease up your chihauha and set him loose in the sewers to establish a beachhead for your underground empire.

tland

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2002, 07:52:44 AM »
Noble houses need to be fixed.
Noble guards can't even stop an assasination atempt unless they are already guarding the Noble in question and succeed in the guarding or rescue command.
If you actualy attack an assasin suddenly you become wanted and in most cases get drug off pretty fast.
Meanwhile your boss dies
ot Milk?

John

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2002, 08:18:06 PM »
Perhaps giving Noble guards the ability to go around killing whoever they want, but a flag gets set to them, so whenever a templar looks at them, they see that the guard has been attacking people so they can then interogate the guard or noble.

That makes more sense IMO then a guard getting dragged off for trying to rescue his noble.

the halfling

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2002, 08:45:51 PM »
Quote from: "tland"
Noble houses need to be fixed.
Noble guards can't even stop an assasination atempt unless they are already guarding the Noble in question and succeed in the guarding or rescue command.
If you actualy attack an assasin suddenly you become wanted and in most cases get drug off pretty fast.
Meanwhile your boss dies

Assist doesn't work?
*bows down to everyone*
"Please Sir don't kiss my ass! I"ll do anything to get out of a beating!"
 don't eat everyone.

marko

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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2002, 12:54:11 PM »
The reason I think no one capitulates under threat is this - it doesn't affect their character in a coded manner.  Their HP aren't reduced permanently.  Hell, they don't even lose HP during torture or any punishment.  Since there is no apparent affect on the character people don't feel they need to act out being affected.

If there was a mechanism for torture that led to HP loss and the potential of permanent HP loss or limb loss you'd see a lot of people speaking up real fast.  Right now it is all or nothing - death or walking free, there's no middle ground.

The knowledge of losing half a character's hp permanently would get people to react in a more 'realistic' manner during torture.

Angela Christine

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Death
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2002, 03:18:24 PM »
Some people assume their character will be killed at the end of the torture no matter what they say, so they might as well have the character go out in style.  Being maimed isn't an OOC worry if OOCly you have already started thinking of the character as dead.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

Xanous

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2002, 03:25:50 PM »
Quote
Assist doesn't work?


Assisting gets you wanted these days, I believe.  Then you get into the position where the guard is wanted but the assassin is not, which is bad.
h, the mysteries of the universe.  Try to understand them, but can you?  Nope! They're mysteries!

Carnage

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...
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2002, 05:12:23 PM »
If you assist the wanted character, you get in trouble. However, if you 'assist' (as in the command) the one being attacked, you're free from the crim code.
Carnage
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Regards,
-the Shade of Nessalin"

I'M ONLY TAKING A BREAK NESSALIN, I SWEAR!

Anonymous

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2002, 04:11:52 PM »
I've played a ton of PCs who kissed butt, were wimpy, obsequious(sp?), timid or
downright infantile.

And I enjoyed it.

My work involves a lot of stress and responsibility, often times I am called on the carpet for
things that are either blown far out of proportion or are not and never were my choice.

I think that a lot of times people who get crapped on in real life don't want to play
out getting crapped on in their leisure time as well.

The point about everything being cliche is well-founded, but I honestly feel more than that,
its more of a matter of wanting to break from the reality that is our pathetic lives.

So, while I can't stab a customer in the face with a broken bottle when they get pushy about
things that I'm not gong to change, you can bet I can in Armageddon, and just might if I
felt the PC would.

Maybe its stereotyping here, but I think of all the rich, powerful business people who end up
wearing clothes of the opposite gender above their diapers asking their mistress to please
burn them on the buttocks with a cigar as they are suspended from the ceiling by chains.
The reason that so many affluent people get into masochism is that it is a release from
responsibility in the ultimate.  They are no longer in control, and thus not responsible for,
anything.  Even that most personal of things, their own body.

So, to be blunt, if Armageddon was populated in large by something other than geeks with
crappy jobs working for evil people, I'd imagine there'd be a lot more begging and pleading
going on.

As for me, I got enough of that in reality.

crymerci

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Walk with pride! Pee with pride! Die with pride!
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2002, 06:07:44 PM »
Quote from: "ChristopherRobertWoods"

its more of a matter of wanting to break from the reality that is our pathetic lives.


Well, I don't think my life is 'pathetic', but I will say I wish my real-life job was more like my Armageddon character's.
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.