Spice: Realism vs Playability

[Harmless]

Ten and a half hours round trip for cheaper dope might be reasonable for the occasional user, but for the hardcore junkie it's not feasible. And while some junkies may relocate to Nepal, most do not.

The stuff you can buy "over-the-counter" in Tuluk is marked up, agreed; probably something to do with supply-demand curves. I think it works as is, in general, but maybe PC actions can increase the availability or decrease the price of certain kinds of spice up north and there can be broke clay-digging junkies or something.

[Lizzie]

Let's see - spice isn't real. There's no corresponding product in real life. Heroin is nothing like spice. Marijuana is sort of like some spice, but not really, and the coded effects are nothing at all like it, though the echo you get might be similar. Nepal might be 10 hours away, but Red Storm is only an hour or two, on a mount, because there are no airplanes. If you're a desert elf, you could probably "realistically" run from Tuluk to Red Storm in a single game-day's time, and still "realistically" rest in Luir's and a couple of other choice spots along the way, to make it realistic.

What else - you can get to Luir's from Tuluk fairly quickly, and get your spice for a lot less there.

Being a junkie on 100-sid spice is not the same as being a junkie on $100 cocaine. First of all, most degenerate commoner nobodies don't make 100 sids in a week, let alone be able to afford a daily junk habit of that cost. Second of all, if you're a good thief, then you can afford to buy spice right there in Tuluk and not have to go anywhere to get it cheaper.

Realistically, Armageddon isn't real. This is why I loathe the comparisons. There are none. There are no elves in real life, there's no silt sea, there's no spice, there's no Kurac. The world of Armageddon isn't based on reality. It's based on a hybrid of a fantasy game and a sci-fi fantasy fiction novel.

[williamson]

     I'm going to oversimplify spice in a way that's not completely accurate, but describes how I feel spice largely works in the game world. I'm going to say that there are two types of spice. The first gives you a brief coded benefit followed by a very, very long detriment. The second gives you a pleasant echo which is later followed by an unpleasant echo. Of the spices that are purchased by PCs, it seems the majority are the "echo" spices which are frequently used to add color to their characters. The side effects of the "coded" spices are so harsh that I rarely use them with my PCs or see them used by other PCs. When I've tried to sell spice, I almost always find no buyers. In the past, I've gone so far as to smuggle spice into Allanak only to find zero buyers or dealers. I'm sure this isn't always the case, but it frequently is for me. I think if some changes were made then more people would want spice, more people would trade spice, more people would smuggle spice, more people would get caught smuggling, and more plots/interactions would develop.

Here are some ideas:

1) Leave grains of spice exactly as they are now.

2) Change pinches of spice to make them less harsh. Hypothetically, a "coded" pinch of spice might grant you +3 to your coolness for three hours. Once it wears off, you'd be at -3 coolness for three hours. If you need to be Fonzie on Abid, you could spice up, come down, and be back to normal on Cingel. The addiction would come, not from physical dependence, but from the desire to be Fonzie again if only you had a few more pinches of spice.

3) To add some balance, the price of pinches and larger amounts of spice could be increased to prevent overuse by all but the most wealthy.


I feel a lot could be added to the game by making spice more desirable to players and thus their characters.

[Lizzie]

If anything, I'd say leave everything the way it is EXCEPT make *processed* spice (made by Kurac or whoever is in possession of the brick press) produce a less-harsh after affect. It should still be addictive, but for example:

A regular pinch/grain found raw in the silt sea gives a -5 penalty when it wears off, and takes 3 game-hours to return back to normal as long as the person doesn't take another pinch/grain within that 3 hours.

A processed pinch (no grain - processed spice can't be reduced to grains) gives a -4 penalty when it wears off, and takes 2 game-hours to return to normal as long as the person doesn't take another pinch/grain within that 2 hours.

So people who are junkies in Tuluk will have a less difficult time of being junkies, but it'll still cost more since it's Kurac-made and therefore codedly superior products. People who are junkies but not in Tuluk will still have a few options: go to Luir's, go to Red Storm, or find someone who can do either on their behalf.

[Skeeter]

As a newbie I have to say I already like the concepts behind spice, my first PC had access to it through his contacts, yet was only prepared to use it as a last resort ICly. That was purely his IC choice as if I could, I wouldn't mind him snorting or smoking the stuff regularly - however he was more prone to want to keep a level head (didn't even drink much), however I would say that, it's good spice is expensive for the sake of realistic risk costs, good that it's harmful like real drugs - though even if not a lot of PCs are doing it, we can still assume there's plenty of vNPCs doing it regularly.

One thing that might be really interesting is a vNPC/NPC drug market in somewhere like Nak where the shady, rinth characters can try to make customers of NPCs, using the haggle skill to manipulate them into trying it. And then maybe say, every X amount of hours - can sell more to that NPC.

It's a bit of ambitious concept however it would make for drug dealers to set up territories, protecting their turf (their NPCs) to stop the other dealers moving in and taking over. That would at least solve the problem of PCs not being able to play as greasy street dealers, whilst not taking away from the negative sides to using the stuff for PCs.

[valeria]

If anything, I'd say leave everything the way it is EXCEPT make *processed* spice (made by Kurac or whoever is in possession of the brick press) produce a less-harsh after affect.

I really, really like this idea.  It makes the Professional Spice House's professional spice more valuable because of value added, rather than just because they happen to have the distribution network.

[Reiloth]

Crack vs Cocaine.

It'd be nice to see more Crack on the 'streets', be they the warrens or the Labyrinth. Everyone from the US Government down to the guy serving life in prison for possession of crack cocaine knows Crack is Legit. You take pure shit and cut it down with nasty shit, in order to make a larger profit (because who cares about who actually uses it). You'd think people in the Guild, and Kurac, would figure that out by now.

And, yes, it'd be nice to see the more processed stuff have maybe less 'harsh' effects. Just as addictive, just not as bad for you.

[Reiloth]

Another cool thing would be...

If Kurac sold a type of spice that rejuvenated your health. As in -- Repaired the damage that spice does to your body.

Keep a customer fit and healthy to keep smoking your product.

Make it pricy, difficult to get, and needing 'favors' in the same way Kemen is. Maybe they give it out for free to their soldiers and family members.

Howdy, that'd get Kurac deep in a lot of people's pockets.

[Harmless]

I really like the ideas of enhancing kuraci spice and distinguishing processed vs raw vs cut with other shit. If all of those things could go into place, that'd be a cool addition to the economy and culture.

[Desertman]

I support the idea of making changes to spice so that it is more highly sought after by more of the playerbase.

I have always felt it was a bit underrepresented in terms of how "awesome/addictive/beneficial" it should be on a coded level to help reinforce the demand for it from the players.

With that being said, it is probably a pretty fine line to walk between making it desirable and making it so desirable it becomes a distraction in the overall scope of the game.

I would hate to be the one trying to find that perfect middle ground. I want spice to be more desirable/sought after, but I don't want Armageddon to turn into, "Spice Wars". (Though some spice wars would be cool.)

[Reiloth]

I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.

I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).

[Delirium]

I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.

I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).

Yeah, I think this would be a great compromise fix. It certainly made alcohol playable (nothing like the days of logging off after a party RPT to log on 3 weeks later still plastered out of your mind).

[flurry]

I'm okay with spice effects wearing off while logged out, as long as it doesn't speed up the process. No instant recoveries out of convenience.

[bcw81]

I personally would like to see the durration of spice lengthened. As it is right now, if you use war spice before you leave a city, it's liable to have worn off before you get into battle.

[solera]

I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.

I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).

Yeah, I think this would be a great compromise fix. It certainly made alcohol playable (nothing like the days of logging off after a party RPT to log on 3 weeks later still plastered out of your mind).

Derail : It's a bit of a bummer when the game crashes in the middle of a party, and you return dead cold sober.

[Delirium]

Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.

[manipura]

Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.

It's odd, I'm not entirely sure how it works.  If you are drunk and you log out or get disconnected, when you reconnect again I believe it says you are now sober.
That being said, the last time I got disconnected while I was drinking, I got the "you are now sober" message when reconnecting, then sipped another shot and was instantly extremely intoxicated.

[Molten Heart]

Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.

This is how I've seen it work.  If my character has been drinking when I log out and I log back in, usually they're sober but sometimes they're still feeling the effects of the alcohol.  It depends on how much time has passed and how much they've been drinking.

[RogueGunslinger]

I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.

I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).

It certainly made alcohol playable.

Let's please not give that retarded ass code too much credit.

[Reiloth]

?

Oh you mean don't give alcohol code too much credit.

Yeah -- It's a little silly. It'd be cool if it were a little more accurate (I personally wouldn't mind having PCs vomit before blacking out). And the tripping over yourself is a little silly (I've tripped over myself drunk, but only once, and the parking barrier really shouldn't have been in the middle of the sidewalk).

Regardless, it'd be nice if the spice timer went into play the same way alcohol did -- I think what's being mentioned above is a bit of a bug. I've noticed too it says 'You are now sober', but I think it's just because your sober level went down one notch.

[RogueGunslinger]

Mmm, I meant drunk code in general, not the fact it goes away logged out(which is a godsend).  Falling down that much is neither realistic nor enjoyable.

[valeria]

Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity.  It explains all those giant insects or something too right?

[racurtne]

Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity.  It explains all those giant insects or something too right?

If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.

[Cabooze]

Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity.  It explains all those giant insects or something too right?

If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.

This is pretty offtopic and going into quite a tangent, but, if Suk-Krath is a yellow sun much like earth's, solar radiation would cause a slow progressing strain of mutations (evolution) similar to the slow progression we experience, and such large bugs would possibly not require less gravity and their exoskeletons would not have 'choke points' because their bodies have evolved to work with higher levels of oxygen.

BACK ON TOPIC:


I don't think I've ever experienced spice enough to say whether or not it gives such crippling effects from little use, but I will say I've had a few characters which, after using spice, their fighting skills/other abilities are significantly hindered and often get critical hits landed on them and reel-locked over and over. Suffice to say, I've come to associate spice with the mantis head in the relatively short amount of time I've been playing.

[Fujikoma]

Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity.  It explains all those giant insects or something too right?

If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.

This is pretty offtopic and going into quite a tangent, but, if Suk-Krath is a yellow sun much like earth's, solar radiation would cause a slow progressing strain of mutations (evolution) similar to the slow progression we experience, and such large bugs would possibly not require less gravity and their exoskeletons would not have 'choke points' because their bodies have evolved to work with higher levels of oxygen.

BACK ON TOPIC:


I don't think I've ever experienced spice enough to say whether or not it gives such crippling effects from little use, but I will say I've had a few characters which, after using spice, their fighting skills/other abilities are significantly hindered and often get critical hits landed on them and reel-locked over and over. Suffice to say, I've come to associate spice with the mantis head in the relatively short amount of time I've been playing.

Suk-Krath is actually quite large and red. Don't know how that affects mutations, but the visible spectrum is a bit on the low energy band. Whether it's a red giant or a red dwarf depends on the distance from the star, which, I'm not sure how possible it is for a planet with life to exist a particular distance from a star, bits of the aging cycle either blasting the atmosphere off the planet or simply destroying it, think a red dwarf would be late in the cycle, forget what all goes into the formation of those, and not sure of the potential problems resulting from having a small, rocky, life-bearing planet orbiting a red giant, or if that's even possible.

I would imagine the gravity of the planet would depend on the density. Obviously there's volcanic activity, diamonds and other gems, blah blah blah, as to what clues these offer, I don't know. Anyway, I guess the whole point is, trying to scientifically explain it may be a waste of time, it being a low-fantasy game, where any insurmountable difficulty in explanation could, in theory, just boil down to "because magick", or, "a wizard did it". Still, would be neat to have a good idea of how certain things came to be *eyes the black moon*. I don't really care as long as I'm having fun.