The Clans and Economy Thread

[James de Monet]

It already exists.

To some extent it exists.  Merchant Houses, obviously, have tons of stuff they could give, if the guard wing gets together with the mercantile wing, to give some bonuses.

Militia have access to militia weapons.

But for the rest, the problem is, even if coded House gear exists, the PCs have no direct access to it.  They can request it from clan staff, who are usually glad to help, but they don't always want to bother staff, and they don't always know what they want/need without looking at a list.

I am referring to this largely on the context of "give cool stuff with important promotions" Not just "get access to stuff for being in a clan."  The lists usually arent that large, which means if they are readily or frequently available, they will become commonplace, which kinda defeats the "cool" part.

[Fujikoma]

You know what? I've only been playying a year, and I've seen leadership styles change -so- much over the course of that year in one particular clan. Yeah, there's not a lot you can do about certain things, but there is a FUCKTON you can do about how you treat your subordinates, and people outside your sphere of influence, your customers... I've seen it change in a drastic manner, so obviously, there's more than a little wiggle room in there. Maybe if you'd evaluate what you punish people for, what you give them a pass on, what you reward them for, what you do or do not promote them for, then you may be able to stave off the whole "your schedule and rules suck" by just being awesome to work for, but if that's a problem for you, if the documents are SO restrictive you can't bend or break the rules on occassion, then, well, all the more reason to speak with your feet.

And I've said it before, indies are in a precarious situation, they aren't afforded the same protections, and if they want them, they have to work out the deals themselves, which, coin being meaningless, is actually pretty difficult to do. This, strangely, costs a bit of meaningless coin, but it's not about the coin, the coin is simply a symbol of appreciation, living another day is priceless, the coin doesn't do this, the player does by not being a douchewad and properly negotiating the deals they need. Clans do this for you, they also cook you up fancy food, give you a place for storage, etc. These are not to be sneered at, they are good rewards, but just as easily rendered meaningless by a boss that makes you miserable. All that coin the indie gets? Yeah, that needs to get taxxed, if it's not already, by various criminal organizations and militias, if you're not fricking bribing someone, you're taking a huge risk.

Amos salter's job may seem boring and ho-hum, until a raider or mekillot or rogue mage happens upon him, and then, well, it just got exciting real fast, though, it may not last long, on account of him being eaten. I don't care if he's decked out in horror plate, if he's not payying attention, Amos gets et. Enough ho-hum hours, days, weeks on the flat? Eventually a salt worm is going to eat him or something. So much for wealthy Amos. Alas, time to find a new indie to pump for the coin we need.

In the end open elite units, pay clannies more, some kind of clan apartment system for lifesworn, blah blah blah, basically all the great suggestions I've read so far. Because, the whole point in the beginning was, WE CAN'T EVEN AFFORD ALE ON THIS AMOUNT. It's entirely reasonable to expect the Merchant Houses and perhaps the Byn to make booze allowances. Oh, and clan specific gear for promotions. You KNOW how awesome this would be. Why not?

[valeria]

I'm all for elite units delineated by specific gear.  The only thing is, I'd rather have it progress organically in the game world, such as being pressed for by Guard Amos's noble when Guard Amos has been around for 2 RL years or whatever, than have staff just announce that such positions are now available and suddenly having everyone strive for it.  More like staff says sure we'll support that, it's possible; rather than staff says House Nipchik is suddenly allowing players obtain the role of Pink Guardsman.

And as I've mentioned elsewhere (I too lazy to search and link), I think being a long-term member of a clan should come with some sort of clan-based housing.  Maybe a shitty room, but a shitty room at a very low cost that clannies can easily afford, and can decorate and bring their friends/conspirators/mudsexx buddies/whatever to.  Everybody like having a room.

The main reasons why I'm against ideas that boil down to nerf indies/make indies more integrated is that a lot of times, someone--let's use the example of an off-peak player--is playing an indie exactly because she can't easily integrate anywhere given her playtimes.  And I don't want to make things even harder on off peak players.  Sometimes you just really can't find anyone to interact with.  And frankly, you shouldn't have to be forced to.  Different people like playing different things and Arm should support that.

As for the wealth divides, I've never made nine jillion coins with my indies.  Let's not confuse 'playing an independent' with 'twinking an independent 20 hours a week'.  Anyone is going to be able to break a system if their try.  But maybe if you see an exploit, you should notify staff.  I have noticed that one thing I accidentally found out that you could sell in X location for a buttton of coins, you're no longer able to do that, so I do think they fix those things.

[a french mans shirt]

 Why do people care if they've got you in their clan to the point of acting unrealistic to get you in? There's plenty of clanned people at any time who don't need to be restricted in their schedules. If anything I would think that would be more interesting than being on a serious mission to get two more people to chat with in the crafting room. To hunt with, sure. But things have been for a long time that some person in Salaar could hunt with Kadians and it wouldn't matter. Not everybody, but almost so.

Anyone who tells me that they don't get accousted to join the clan from every clanned person they see during their first RL week of play is playing a breed rinthi or is playing somewhere I would kill to go play in. Getting a new pc used to be like opening a shiny new present; now I just go into waiting mode and don't plan on a full experience until after a week of play. The HRPT is over, fellow armers, you can stop recruiting like your life depends on it.

I bet more people would be clanned a lot more often if there were more close to poverty, socially gritty clans. Byn's the only one that's open, and as far as I can tell staff are trying to keep people out of it. Would help reduce the Byn's importance as a stepping stone from nothing to possibly considered for employment too.

[KankWhisperer]

The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

If everyone in the clan isn't of a high enough rank -to- push it, then it becomes a frustration.

[Fujikoma]

Here's how a merchant house boss could get extra coin to pay subordinates in need of a reward:

GMH boss: "We've heard you've been making and selling X for lower than the amount we charge, this is infringing on our market share. I'm sure you know which options that leaves me, however, I might be tempted to look the other way if you make it worth my while."

Indie merchant: "But it's just a pair of chopsticks/nunchaku/garden hoe! How is that infringement?! I don't understand!"

GMH boss: "It's infringement because now my crafters can't make the extra coin to fund their silk-burning habit, that stuff's expensive, you see? Basically, it is because I say it is, and who do you think they'll believe, anyway? I want one large on my desk by sundown, and we won't bother you for X amount of time."

Easy peasey. If Derpina doesn't fork over the dough, start having her tailed and harassed, if she still doesn't get it, well, an example needs to be made, easily accomplished with a well timed knife in the back. The next one WILL pay more attention to the sword hanging over their head.

[valeria]

The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.

[Patuk]

The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.

Right. So you open up every clan's elite unit. Most every clan open now has one, and it makes sense for them to be as well. It's not an unfair advantage if it applies across the board.

[X-D]

First, I am always amused by the "Indies have more Lootz!"

Now, least for me, sure, when I play indy I can keep them easily with a respectable bank account...but when I play long term clan that bank account is almost always silly...stupidly rich. And I cannot be the only one.
Course now days I keep a PC at the wealth level I think that PC should be at...IE, coins are meaningless, I have other things to do.

Now Patuk wrote:

but we can do better than that; if your supposedly elite pc ends up with the exact same gear and skills as someone who's stayed on their own all their life

All the elite groups have gear specific to that group, and it is rather elite as well. The only way you would be able to get that gear is to be an elite member of that group or to kill one of them and take it...Of course, once somebody saw you in said gear, your days would be numbered.

On the subject of skills...now that is one nobody has brought up.
My take on that would be, since if you are in one of those groups, it would be cool if staff was willing to let those members learn say, up to 3 more skills off an approved list assuming you had teachers IG etc. I mean after all, if you are an outrider, you are life oathed fanatic and not going anywhere.

[Patuk]

I have no issue with an elite-level salarri being targeted by a crewof elves because they think that sword of doom could be put to better use. Bring it on, bitches.

[X-D]

Grin, we are in agreement there.

[valeria]

The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.

Right. So you open up every clan's elite unit. Most every clan open now has one, and it makes sense for them to be as well. It's not an unfair advantage if it applies across the board.

Patuk says what I was trying to say better than how I said it.  With one addendum: The other thing I was trying to say (badly) was that getting into an elite unit should as always depend on how hard a sponsoring character pushes for it for their underling.  There should be no entitlement to get into one after X years or whatever.

[Barzalene]

YES! no promotion by attrition. If you want more than than the basic you should have to strive.

[Ouroboros]

Fair Warning: This is going to be a long one, even for me, so consider yourselves forewarned. I'm starting off with a small response to 7D, but that's not what the majority of the post relates to. It relates to clans vs indies, as well as things that could improve clans. If you've the patience to read through, go for it. If you opt for the TL;DR; route, no hard feelings either. That said, it would likely serve you well to read through if you're at all invested in this discussion.

It makes no sense to me that Nenyuk keeps records for Joe Smoe and his 300 sid across the Known, which is the only thing I have suggested at all.

It's kinda their job man, and they're quite good at it. They bank, pun intended, on the fact that Joe will eventually bite the dust and leave them with a 300 sid profit. This being Zalanthas, much sooner than later. And that profit practically cost them little to nothing in and of itself, they're essentially holding money that long-term is likely to be their own. The desert is filled with as many bones of wealthy indies as there are coins in Nenyuk's coffers.

Compare that to Salarr or Kadius who are just as interested in taking Joe's coin but have to offer in return something that costs them. By your reasoning no GMH should be interested in dealing with commoners, but the fact is every GMH's bottom line is profit and it rarely matter where it comes from.

I can see any number of OOC arguments against indie having access to banks, and while I'll never agree with them because I feel it would destroy the game, I can respect them. From an IC stand-point though, I really can't see any valid arguments for such a change. Just my view though, and each is entitled to their own.


Related General Note: The biggest misconception in the game is that wealth matters, likely because it plays such an important role not only in the real world but in most games as well. In Armageddon it really doesn't. A highborn with 100 'sid in his pocket is still a highborn, with the full social, political and financial backing of his Noble family behind them. A GMH employee with 500 'sid in his pocket still wears the colors of a House that can financially crush anyone but another GMH and has all the perks that come with it, as well as knowing exactly when and how much his next paycheck is going to be. An independent commoner with 1,000 'sid in his pocket is a walking, talking target for every pickpocket and burglar, raider, corrupt militia member, or any Templar he crosses paths with. He knows where today's meal is coming from, and that it might be tasty, but doesn't know when next week's meal will come from. And if he can afford decent gear he should damn well buy it and use it, because there's nothing else that's got his back in this cold harsh world.


Since the topic keeps coming back to making things harder for indies though, as it always does, let's talk about it. Many players have said that it's too easy to hunt as an indie, often citing that once a player knows how the world reacts they have an advantage. Oddly enough, the answer is rarely, "Let's make the world more dangerous as a whole!" Because that would affect everyone, and we just want indies to have it harder. So let's keep throwing hurdles in their way to make the world seem harder for them, while those in clans continue to enjoy the same experience they did before. Because their paycheck is lower and it sucks to be them, right?


Fun Fact: The knowledge and experience that can make the world less dangerous for someone playing an indie doesn't just go away when they're playing a clanned member. Now they just have the knowledge and a few more buddies along with them, which makes the world even less dangerous. To the point staff sometimes have to jump in and balance the odds! Yet no one seems to cry, "The clan hunters are too powerful because they have all this knowledge along with the backing of a trained group alongside them!"


I get the feeling I'll still be saying this ten years from now, but the problem isn't with indies. Mainly due to one reason... Every single issue someone has with an indie is an issue they could potentially have with a clannie as well. We're not playing on different servers, everyone gets that right? Indies have no special powers granted to them in char-gen. They're playing the same game as everyone else, and outside of rare exceptions (like X-D), they're playing it in hardcore mode. The fact clans restrict some of the things one can do is a PURELY IC EFFECT. Staff isn't parked invis at the city gates to stop your character from leaving without permission if you're in a clan. You can choose to follow or ignore those rules as your character would, and reap whatever repercussions come from that. In fact if your character is a shady and self-serving sort, as most Zalanthans are, you're probably doing them an injustice by following those rules in the first place.

So what exactly are you complaining about? Is your clan restricting your character's motivations? Why is he or she even with them. Is there a benefit you're receiving from being with a clan that outweighs the loss of freedom? Then what gives you the right to complain? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm sorry, that's just life. It's realistic, if anything. The only thing an indie has at their disposal that a clanned character doesn't, are certain freedoms that a clanned character chooses to forgo to gain other benefits. And that freedom comes at a cost that's paid for regularly, believe me. Yet time and time again, players sit with their characters in a clan, enjoying their safe sparring, readily available food and water, safety for their often free gear, resources for their crafting, steady paycheck, elevated social status, and whatever other perk staff and PC leaders might see fit to throw their way like clan-only apartments, and.... They bitch. Man, do they bitch.

Sorry, no, that's not how the world works and it's not how the game works either. You made a choice and are reaping rewards, you've no right to bitch about your indie neighbours rewards too. Especially when the only thing standing between you and having the rewards of both clan life and indie freedom is your decision to play your character in a (hopefully) IC-accurate fashion.

There's an old parable about two neighbours, one of which had a goat and the other didn't. The one that didn't would pray every day to God about it, and finally God appeared and asked, "You've been passionately praying for many years now, how can I reward you? Would you like a goat as well?" And the inevitable response was, "No God, I just don't want my neighbor to have one either." This is how half the arguments against indies sound to me, year in, year out.

That's not to say the clan experience shouldn't be improved, because I firmly believe it can and should be. But because it will improve someone's experience, not because it will diminish someone else's experience. Yes, clans could use some TLC now and then. And they sometimes receive it, lately more so than in past years. And many great suggestions have been made even in this thread that could improve the experience for players in clans. Some are minor, some are major, all stand valid for examination by staff.

Seeing the elite clans re-open would be an amazing and positive experience, especially for those who never had the opportunity to experience them before. It feels like the current staff administration isn't overt to re-considering past policies, so long as it's ensured the effects are positive. We've seen that in their treatment of slave roles among other things.

Right now a lot of attention has been given to the North, and more recently to the Legion. It's been great to see, as it gives me hope the South and other areas of the game might be given the same attention in the future. Right now though there's a situation where the Legion has been made a lot more accessible to players, and offers a wonderful way to honorably retire from service should one choose to opt out down the road. So perhaps the perfect balance to that would be to also give players a reason to stay in as well. Re-opening the Ivory Guard would not only serve as a decent test-subject for the return of elite clan units as a whole, but play nicely off the recent changes in the Legion as well. Something for Nyr and the Northlands team to consider perhaps.

As for gear and other such perks, they're always a nice touch. While we can springboard ideas on the GDB about that all day long though, it's something that's well within the power of PC leaders to push for. So I'd urge those in such positions to take it up with their clan staff and see what might be done about it, especially if it can evolve due to IC events and efforts instead of staff waving their magick wand.

And that's all I have to say for the foreseeable future or at the very least tonight. This discussion has been fruitful. Carry on. And for God's sake, if someone wants to respond to something I wrote above, don't quote the whole damn thing and make everyone's eyes bleed all over again.

[Patuk]

You're focusing on the negative a lot there, Ouroboros. Many of the suggestions in this thread have been along the lines of alcohol discounts, improved gear, better ranks, and less restriction in leaving clans. None of these things affect independent players at all.

[Fujikoma]

You're focusing on the negative a lot there, Ouroboros. Many of the suggestions in this thread have been along the lines of alcohol discounts, improved gear, better ranks, and less restriction in leaving clans. None of these things affect independent players at all.

It's not so much that there's been a lot of positive suggestions, just that the negative keeps coming up, again, and again, and again...

[Is Friday]

I can always pass out Hurt Feelings Reports to the needy. 

[a french mans shirt]

I think what it is is that IC rewards/superperks/best clothes/tuns of free booze once a month/protection no money can truly buy simply don't translate equally to the OOC conception of these rewards and what they mean for players versus pcs. Therein, the massive to mild cycle of clan bitching. I have nothing useful to say about it because when I felt a clan wasn't delivering what I wanted on a silver platter I simply left instead of trying on the new boots. I imagine other people might, though. Let me ask: what OOC rewards might be given to clannies that would drain enough of the bitching out?

[Rahnevyn]

We've been making clan-related changes to noble houses in the south as well lately, so it's not just the north that's been getting love. A few months back we raised stipends for nobility in Allanak across the board. We've also already increased pay for Borsail and Fale servants and updated their clan ranks and documentation. (Oash, don't worry, your changes are coming soon -- those dirty gemmed just make things a bit more complicated in your case.)

One goal of that effort was to make sure servants of the nobility have a promotion ladder they can climb if they choose to and are able. A long-serving and devoted aide has the ability to rise above just being an aide to a single noble and can be promoted to a more senior role where they're able to wield some of their House's influence independently by virtue of their own rank, rather than only being an extension of a PC noble as an aide. I wanted to mention this because I saw some comments saying more ability for promotions would be good, so I can happily say at least in this case your wishes are being answered.

[slatefox]

I've been waiting a while to pitch in on this topic, but I feel the issue has been mulched over enough without ever bringing up a few key points that I want to share, so here goes --


The idea that coin is meaningless is wrong, and here's why:

I feel that the only people who are going to be saying that money is worthless in this game are older, veteran players who know where all the secrets are at and how to abuse them regularly.  To make matters worse, they likely fail to find an effective plot-driven money-sink, so they spend all their time in-game buying up a ton of useable resources and then complaining that the staff don't run enough RPTs or something.  Those of us who play the game moderately, do not worry ourselves over time-out triggers, aren't zerg-rushing the NPC merchants every time there's a reset, are newbies, play short hours, or strictly rely on clan play are not drowning in money and may find that the economy is either right where it should be OR may actually even pose a challenge.

Playing an indie, without all the twinking and grinding and BS, is hard.  

If people feel there is a problem with there being too many people running around with 10k in coin and max gear, then it's because there is a problem with ABUSE, not necessarily 'indies'.


Getting back to the OP, there are pricing issues with BASIC goods.

Nobody should be able to just waltz out their front door and buy a very effective, well-crafted blade with just a week's worth of pay.  

But what I believe the OP in this thread was discussing is how illogical it is that a clansman can't go blow a bunch of his sid on enough alcohol to get him actually drunk every game-night that he plays, because there is no easy-to-get equivalent to a six-pack of beer.  Too many BASIC goods, like alcohols and non-glamorous foodstuffs, look like they suffer from American-esque inflation, and cost in the double-digits.  Things that don't cost in the double-digits are usually not worth buying except as RP flair.

The overall theme of Armageddon lends to this idea that the general populace is grindingly poor.  Everyone is either subjugated, oppressed, or they're some kind of outlaw.  Everyone works and life is short.  That means that commoners are highly unlikely to have the coin to go in to a bar at the end of the day and pay 15-30 sid for a drink.  They probably don't even make that in a week (in theory), and this is pretty well represented when you look at clan pay.  Where is this game's equivalent to cheap beer, ale, rice, and potatoes?

A mug of basic beer or ale should cost something much closer to 1-3 sid.  A bottle of cheap alcohol should cost closer to 7-9.  'Poor People Food' -- ugly but very filling foods like 'don't-ask-what-it-is stew' and unseasoned roasted giant cockroach, should be in the same cost category.

Currently, though, you're going to find things as simple as an unidentifiable gloop of slop going for 30-40 coins.  

And yes, this is all just an opinion.


Higher class goods are jaw-droppingly cheap.

First thing to come to mind is the stables.  It's fine that mounts cost as much as they do, but they have -NO- upkeep, which makes buying the most ridiculous and largest mounts the most attractive.  If you were an enterprising salt grebber, would you pay for a war beetle or an inix if you had to feed the thing?  No, you wouldn't.  Same reason why back in the day people would rather use an old donkey or a multi-use cow than getting a healthy, trained horse.  Stabling animals should cost something a lot more rational, especially if you're expecting some poor stablemaster to foot the bill for feeding your two-ton garbage disposal for a few weeks.  On the flip side of that, the only small mounts available are absolutely useless since they can't support most people's weight.

While I won't point out specifics in a GDB thread, I've often felt that 'classier' goods, like fine merchant silks, go for way too little.  A fresh-out-the-gate character can afford an entire wardrobe of delicate, jeweled crafts if they're OCD enough about it.  This just seems bizarre when a basic weapon -- crafted out of some modestly common material -- costs just as much if not more.



And lastly...

heh heh, Rahnevyn posted while I was writing this.  I read over what he wrote and have to say I'm very glad and appreciative that work is going into Allanak as well as Tuluk, and you're opening up more opportunities for aids!

[flurry]

The biggest misconception in the game is that wealth matters, likely because it plays such an important role not only in the real world but in most games as well. In Armageddon it really doesn't. A highborn with 100 'sid in his pocket is still a highborn, with the full social, political and financial backing of his Noble family behind them. A GMH employee with 500 'sid in his pocket still wears the colors of a House that can financially crush anyone but another GMH and has all the perks that come with it, as well as knowing exactly when and how much his next paycheck is going to be. An independent commoner with 1,000 'sid in his pocket is a walking, talking target for every pickpocket and burglar, raider, corrupt militia member, or any Templar he crosses paths with. He knows where today's meal is coming from, and that it might be tasty, but doesn't know when next week's meal will come from. And if he can afford decent gear he should damn well buy it and use it, because there's nothing else that's got his back in this cold harsh world.

If wealth doesn't matter, why do some characters go to such lengths to attain it? And if it doesn't matter, why is it controversial to suggest that it should be more challenging to become wealthy?

I don't believe that the indie experience has to be worsened to make clan experience better. But I definitely do think there is an overall negative effect when it's too easy to obtain unreasonable amounts of coins. As much as people say wealth can encourage plots, I've seen the opposite happen, where wealthy characters throw money at problems to make them (and the associated plots) go away. Often wealth has a bizarro effect on recruiting, where indies explain how the quality of life in a clan would be too much of a downgrade. And these are people who had sought me out to get hired, but only if I'd be willing to make numerous exceptions to the rules for them. Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did. Maybe that's changed in the past few years, but it was unmistakeable at the time.

I want indie roles to be as viable as ever, but I'd like to see it be more difficult for characters to accumulate large amounts of coins.

[Kismetic]

relevant stuff

[James de Monet]

Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did.

QFE

I think part of this may be perception and scale, since nobles are constantly having to throw large gobs of money at plots, where indies don't, but it still seems wrong.  Additionally, when you are playing a leader, the amount of coin you need to offer an indie to make even the simplest task worth their while is ridiculous. Like multiple year's wages for a clanned person.  That does nothing to help the appearance of economic normalcy.

[Fujikoma]

Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did.

QFE

I think part of this may be perception and scale, since nobles are constantly having to throw large gobs of money at plots, where indies don't, but it still seems wrong.  Additionally, when you are playing a leader, the amount of coin you need to offer an indie to make even the simplest task worth their while is ridiculous. Like multiple year's wages for a clanned person.  That does nothing to help the appearance of economic normalcy.

Well, lets consider the cost of food, water, stable fees for the indie to journey out and aquire these goods, as well as the multiple people they have to pay for "protection", the money you have to pay for the rest of your crew, the money for your over-priveleged butt to sit and sip and ale, and have enough stored up for contingencies.

[Is Friday]

I want indie roles to be as viable as ever, but I'd like to see it be more difficult for characters to accumulate large amounts of coins.

Pretty much my thoughts.