Author Topic: The Clans and Economy Thread  (Read 35343 times)

James de Monet

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The Clans and Economy Thread
« on: July 09, 2014, 11:49:38 AM »
Broken out from RAT.

I think the problem is actually not with clan pay. You're in a clan, it costs you a month's pay to get a decent sword? That sounds reasonable. Half a year's pay to buy a mount? A year's pay to buy a badass piece of armor? That all seems fine to me.

The place where I see it falling apart is recreation.

You have to kind of assume that a lot of people on this terrible world would drink their pay away.  It doesn't seem unreasonable that a soldier or clanned hunter would be able to afford two slightly-better-than-piss drinks every night when they get off work. If most players don't see more than 2-3 nights in an RL day of play:

2 (drinks per night) * 2.5 (nights per RL day) * 14 (RL days in an IG month) = 70 (drinks a clanned should reasonably be able to afford in an IG month)

300 (average monthly clan income) / 70 (drinks) = 4.3 'sid (what a mug of swill would have to cost to make that a reality)

If you consider that your base level drinks cost what, five times that? I think that's where the model really falls apart for me.


I get all the arguments about desert world, etc, etc, but I think if drinks were made cheaper, clanned characters could drink to a more realistic level, and would spend less time feeling abominably poor.  Additionally, there are parallels to RL places where beer is cheaper than water. And if its a concern about "thirst", perhaps we could make new cheap drinks that don't quench it at all (or so little as to be essentially worthless)?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:15:36 PM by Rahnevyn »
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

Fujikoma

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 11:57:23 AM »
Since the RAT thread said feel free to quote yourselves, I'll toss this out there with no context, then read the original post in a moment...
Also, don't forget the protections that clans afford their members, the free food, the gatherings and increased social standing, the opportunities for interaction as part of a group, training facilities, discounts on goods and services. When you really think about it, as an indie you have to handle all that yourself, and that coin you make won't get you too far once you start adding up time, effort, expenses, but on the upside you get freedom with your coin (even if it ends up ruining you in the end), freedom to decide your own schedule...

Let's also not forget the benefit those indies provide to the player economy, purchasing goods and services, opportunities for blackmail, ransom, "protection money" abound. I'm sure there's a way we can all work this out so it smoothly runs together.

Also, indies offer outside clan opportunities for interaction, positive or negative, unconventional means of getting things done. Let's not ignore the value of a good wild-card just because we get stuck in certain ways and manners of solving problems.

In the end, clans provide plenty of incentive for people who want certain things out of their gaming experience. Not being in a clan should be difficult, yes, there's no one there handling for you the things a clan -would- be doing, and there's a chance you get your priorities even just subtly unbalanced and it gets you killed. Personally, I like the way things are, with the exception of clan pay.

That said I've playyed games where the only influx of currency was newb money. Starts off good, but when that starts to run dry... it's just no fun anymore.

Although, I do see Dman's point.
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Reiloth

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 12:21:20 PM »
I agree that food/drink prices in particular areas are high.

I think that free room/board/storage/food/water is pretty easily discounted in the scheme of things. When you don't have those things, you are grinding pretty much all the time to make money enough to get those things. Or at least I am. I'm not the best at the pyramid scheme of 'indy hunter that makes 50k', but I like clans because it takes care of that aspect for the PC, and I think it's realistic that people would join clans mainly for that reason.

From what I have seen, pay-scale in clans seems fine. I think that Nobles and Templars could always get paid more (and probably are/have been due to IC events in places like Tuluk), and that trickles down to the plebeians (American Economy anyone?). If recreational drugs/alcohol were a little cheaper, that'd be nice too.
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senseofeven

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 12:36:46 PM »
Would it be game breaking if the militia in each city could pay a little lesser for things in their respective city states? Since they get paltry pay, of course in some shops the discount does not apply or perhaps a even smaller discount compared to the rest of the populace.

Since they are lifesworn and all that - shop NPCs could give the discount on certain random times to coded militia members because they felt like, "Hey, you're doing a good job. Here have a discount.". Would be fun to listen to recruits/soldiers sharing in the barracks about that nice bazaar lady who shaved off some coin on an item he was eyeing.

It'll scale a little better to the pay scheme, possibly. And our soldiers can drink til they're merry and ease off the stresses of their jobs.

Reiloth

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 12:47:38 PM »
Would it be game breaking if the militia in each city could pay a little lesser for things in their respective city states? Since they get paltry pay, of course in some shops the discount does not apply or perhaps a even smaller discount compared to the rest of the populace.

Since they are lifesworn and all that - shop NPCs could give the discount on certain random times to coded militia members because they felt like, "Hey, you're doing a good job. Here have a discount.". Would be fun to listen to recruits/soldiers sharing in the barracks about that nice bazaar lady who shaved off some coin on an item he was eyeing.

It'll scale a little better to the pay scheme, possibly. And our soldiers can drink til they're merry and ease off the stresses of their jobs.

Hah, that's actually a really good idea. Combats the low pay with much lower prices, and it'd be hilarious if they got 'free coffee' from the bars. Maybe free water?
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Fujikoma

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 12:51:27 PM »
I call it the "Please go away and leave me alone, you're frightening off my business." discount!
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Dakota

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 12:58:39 PM »
Frankly...

I think it's fine the way it is and TOO FEW PEOPLE... are actually ever poor in this game (kudos to those who RP destitute and poor). Also if you have a city-based PC and are NOT clanned... you tend to spend a tonne on water and food over time. Free water and food tends to go a long way.

Perhaps -higher- ranking PC's (Corporal and above?) should get good pay, but I've never met a Kurac Corporal / Salarri who didn't have gear in spades and loads of coin to go around.

SO I think if you're in a clan and (aside from a Sergeant or above) are bitching about sid? You're doing it right.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:04:01 PM by Dakota »
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senseofeven

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 01:05:04 PM »

Perhaps -higher- ranking PC's (Corporal and above?) should get good pay, but I've never met a Kurac Corporal / Salarri who didn't have gear in spades and loads of coin to go around.


Good idea. Since mid and upper leaderships are somewhat running the ground in the clans now - they will need extra sids to throw around, get stuff, or to pocket it all and be corrupt.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 01:10:44 PM by senseofeven »

Molten Heart

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2014, 02:23:32 PM »
What if clan pay paid a base salary but then offered a bonus based on the amount of time played for being logged in?  Just an idea.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:45:10 PM by Molten Heart »

Desertman

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 02:41:31 PM »
House Hunters.

They get...

400coins a month. - If the hunter is worth anything, this means if they go on more than two or three hunts and give the materials to the House, they are now losing money.

Free water - If the hunter is worth anything, this is nothing. They already can and do get their own water for free.

Free food - If the hunter is worth anything, this is nothing. They already get so much food for free just from doing their job.

Free Storage/A Room - If the hunter is worth anything, they can easily afford to rent a place. With that being said, one perk here is the House "place" is behind guarded gates, so, I can see this as a perk.


The only IC perk to joining a House as a hunter is guarded storage, and being "affiliated".

Economically it makes zero sense and any Hunter worth actually having would lose a ton of money being employed by a House, but, they just might live longer. Then again, that argument goes back to them being worth anything. If they need to be guarded by other House members while out hunting, they aren't worth having anyways as a hunter.

I find I only ever join Houses as a hunter for OOC reasons. Usually that reason is I OOC'ly like a current clan leader, or OOC'ly just want the RP interaction within that House. I make up IC excuses to fit my OOC motivations.

"Well, I know I'm losing a ton of sid being here, but, I am here because of blah blah blah blah blah a gith killed my mum."



« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:52:27 PM by Desertman »
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Desertman

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2014, 02:46:22 PM »
Oh, I kind of got off on a tangent.

The point to my above post is that as it stands, being a House hunter is really great if you are a newb and need to be taught how to hunt/can't hunt already/aren't a vet player/are playing a character who is roleplaying not being a good hunter.

For vets/capable hunters, the incentives to join a House as a hunter really are not there IC'ly in terms of the economics surrounding IC'ly taking on that employment.

"You want to pay me 400 coins a month, after a year of working for free, to hunt for you? The materials I'm going to bring you in the first two weeks are going to be worth more than 400 coins. LMFAO no, bye."

I would really like to see some new incentives thrown in to being employed by a House that truly reflect how important/awesome such a job would be in the IC world.

Being valuable enough to be employed by one of the greatest Houses in the Known's economy should be a pretty sweet gig, and it really isn't.



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Desertman

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 02:55:49 PM »
Adding this tidbit...

I don't think increasing clan pay is the solution. You could jack it up to three times what it is currently and good hunters would still lose money easily every IC month by giving all of their materials to the House.

I think there needs to be more coded and roleplayed benefits actually in the game world as a whole to better reflect the importance/value of such a job on an IC level.
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QuillDipper

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2014, 03:40:04 PM »
Brief contribution - I think militia in both cities are fine not making much through pay, because they have the ability to make a lot more via "bonuses" from shakedowns and criminals. I think I've read before that people know militia don't make much, yet they still end up in expensive apartments, because that's how the cities work. You don't join either militia because you wanna clean the streets you join because you're a power hungry dick.

If a soldier isn't satisfied with their pay they need to shake more rinthis down and get more 'taxes' from indies. Are there potential IC consequences? Yes, but as always one should remember those are not OOC angers.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 03:45:16 PM by QuillDipper »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2014, 10:32:25 PM »
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.

For crafters in either house, I think it falls on their Mercantile Leadership to make sure they are well compensated for their time. For instance, if I were playing a leader in a GMH, I might give bonuses for 25-50-100 sid for helping me with a task, with this of course dependent on things like how much coin I was raking in anyway. This isn't a lot at first glance, but it adds up so that your crafters are doing well. Add that to the bonuses I'm sure crafters get for having their stuff sold, House specialty or not, and those crafters should have some bux in hand.

And all of that is aside from good food, water, storage, resting area.

For Noble Houses, I simply think the pay rate should be stupidly luxurious. They're Noble Houses. No, you're not scraping by these days - you work directly for Lady Stickem Borsail.
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Dresan

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2014, 01:04:19 AM »
I don't think throwing sid at the problem works either. Mostly because after a certain amount of time, you got all the gear you need, and unless you are renting your own apartment you have money piling up in the bank since the house should be covering almost all your needs.I think pay should cover a decent apartment and it already does in most places.

militia- Everything in the city should be 50 percent off. Everything. Even when buyiing from a merchant house from a PC, i'd sayl. Tavern in particular should practically be giving them 90% discounts. Militia do get alot of other interesting and at times powerful perks in the city already though.

noble houses-Bonuses, pay and benefits should be decided by the sponsored noble, they've been given the tools to make the job of aide very rewarding i think.

kurac- I really feel they need to build apartments in luirs, allowing only lifesworn to rent them, let their family/mates stay with them while they live. Other then that lifesworn should get kurac things at 90 % off, if not utterly free at kuraci establishments.

I think kadius and salarr are alright, maybe a tad bit more pay but considering the schedule(or lack there of) and the fact that you can just do contract work for them for a while, I think what they get now seems to fit. I am not really sure what I would give lifesworn of the these two houses that they wouldn't already get. I like the idea of hunters being able to sell the excess stuff the house might not need, for example the meat from the hunt. Some places/people besides the hunters would probably even benefit from this too i think.

Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.

The thing is the major reason for joining a clan is for the plots. If everyone who joined a clan was rich it would become harder to bribe people . In fact, making people in clans poorer then they are now would probably have more interesting consequences in terms of corruption then making them richer to match independants.
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QuillDipper

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2014, 01:12:10 AM »
I disagree slightly on the militia discount. I think that various NPC shops in Allanak -should- do it, in the Commoner's Quarter, but the Merchant Houses, both NPC and not, wouldn't offer that. They have their own relationship to the militia and the templarate and their prices are one way of being an absolute dick back to the people who are rude to them.

It's important to remember that even the militia rely on the GMHs for certain supplies, because if someone like Salarr bailed then no one would make such high quality weapons in the city. They have a monopoly on quality.
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Riev

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2014, 01:38:56 AM »
Really, this all plays in to Extrinsic vs Intrinsic motivation.

Extrinsic -
    Throw coin at the problem. If we pay them more, they'll want to stick around.
    Give them some extra coded benefits. If we can't pay them more, maybe they like discounts!


Intrinsic -
    A sense of challenge, comparable to the risk vs reward.
    Positive Praise from your higher ups.
    Competition with yourself, or those around you.



There's obviously a ton more between them, but think of that a bit before posting. If we pay them more, its an extrinsic reward. Its quick, its messy, but it gets the job done in the short term. If you make people WANT to work for you, even if you paid them NOTHING EVER? You probably have a pretty rad company to work for.
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CodeMaster

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2014, 02:51:01 AM »
Make drinks cheaper, sure.

I want to say that money isn't the best way to incentivize PCs in a MUD, though.  Why?  You want the game to be playable, so you don't saddle the player with the pain in the ass of replacing her armor, boots, or camping gear every month...

...By the same token (heh), mounts appear to be immortal ('cept kanks), and moreover even the most exotic variety costs a piddly 20 coins to stable...

...Food doesn't rot, backpacks don't carry the stench of all the stinking garbage we put in them, cure tablets don't crumble away, etc. etc.

Apartments offset this a little, giving the veteran something to spend her coins on, but as soon as her income (or her combined roommates') exceeds the rent by something like 10 coins, we run into the same problem anew.

Coins are really nothing, once you get going.  I'd be surprised if 90% of the player base didn't choose his/her clans (or to be an indie) because that role offered them the opportunity to explore themes (conflict, power, creation, whatever) that they found interesting, especially with a leader PC and peers who are fun to play with.
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X-D

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2014, 03:39:49 AM »
That is how I choose the clan/role.

Besides...rules are meant to be broken...especially sillier ones like "everything you hunt belongs to the clan".
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Lizzie

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2014, 07:42:26 AM »
Once you're in a clan, you no longer need coin for anything at all. You don't have to worry about having an "off-day" hunting/grebbing/crafting, because even on an "off-day" you are fed, watered, sheltered, and have a place to store your shit. You have no -need- to amass wealth, because even if a templar needs a bribe from you, your clan boss would have it covered (unless you do something monumentally stupid, in which case you should be submitting a new app anyway).

You only -need- sids if you have no clan. By the time the Red Fang camp was destroyed, there was around 120,000 sids sitting on a rug in one of their tents. Why? Because they didn't need it, and desert elves don't have bank accounts.

If "I can make more sids going solo" is your reason to not join a clan, then you're playing a different game. You're playing a code game, not a RP game. The reason to want to join a clan would be because your *character* would want prestige, protection, the opportunity to shake things up, make new rules, stir some pots, make world changes, make clan changes, become the boss of a place that's got built-in street cred.

The reason to want to NOT join a clan is to create all the above yourself from scratch, knowing full well that it's already been done so you wouldn't be doing anything unique. You'd just be doing it harder.

My characters' reasons for NOT joining clans: They're secretly a mage and don't want to get caught. They're a breed and don't feel they deserve the right. They have mental issues. The clan boss is a dick and they will consider working for the house once that clan boss is replaced. They lack the aptitude for the jobs being advertised. They're rinthis/elves and that makes them automatically ineligible.

Those are the kinds of reasons to NOT join a clan.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 07:44:19 AM by Lizzie »
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Barsook

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2014, 08:20:34 AM »
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.

I agree with this point and it allow the GMH to not lose money because of their hunters being in unneeded items.

Fujikoma

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 08:24:30 AM »
Reasons not to join clan: Don't want to be blindsided by sudden sponsored role that ruins everything you (personally, maybe everyone else hated it and it's better the new way) enjoyed about the clan and turns it into something you'd rather have nothing to do with, without a gradual cooperative shift by clan PC population. Don't like being told when to do things, how to do things, or what to do, for whatever reason. Don't like mandatory activities or schedules. Don't like that for whatever reason, you're always passed up for promotion. Just like to be your own damn boss. Don't want to be stuck doing crap you hate over and over again because rules, because I said so, because yearly contracts or lifeswearing. Don't want to be forced into the role of a posturing, pompous buffoon who's utterly inflexible on anything and continually rammed against the same sort of mentality.

Do I currently find the idea of joining a clan an attractive option? No, not for me personally. Did I always dislike the idea of joining a clan? Also no. May there be some point in time where I am interested in joining a clan? Depends. Currently, a few things would have to change. Is it the coin? No, but my PC is going to want some booze, maybe some workable armor, maybe a decent, serviceable weapon, maybe wants to purchase services from another PC, maybe wants a private place to go for activities best removed from the public eye where some shiv-happy rinthi taint-master is a little less likely to drop in any time, as well as store some personal items behind a semi-reasonably secure lock. I'm not asking for one-time mastercraft horror-plated salt-worm leather here. Just asking for a few things that would help my PCs do their job a little better as well as keep their morale up.

If the clan can't provide these things for my PC, as well as gaurentee the rug won't be whipped out from under them and the whole world flipped turned upside down on them because of a surprise management changeup, then no, not really inspired to join. I can manage these things on my own, with a bit of work, and the extra challenge is kind of a fun exercise to figure out. Maybe it will get boring for me in the future. If any of this came across as snippy, I apologize, I haven't slept in a while, and I might be a little grouchy and not realize it.
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Barzalene

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 08:26:59 AM »
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.


I believe this is happening in some form in at least one GMH at least in theory.
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Desertman

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 10:03:46 AM »

Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.


The reason The Byn doesn't do this is because The Byn ends up with a lot of enemies, for some reason. People really seem to lack the ability to grasp the concept that they are mercenaries and even if they kill your brother, it isn't personal, they should go after whoever hired The Byn to kill him. The reason this matters is because if Troopers were allowed to take jobs alone, even small ones, you would end up with this.

"Hey Trooper, I need you to guard me today while I dig salt."

"Sure, no problem, that will cost you X amount of sid."

Off they go to dig salt.....

While digging salt.....

"Hey Trooper, The Byn killed someone close to me five years ago and now I am taking it out on you! CAST ULTIMATE FIREBALL MON TROOPER DEATH!"

Dead Trooper....

The next day the guys walks into a bar....

"Hey other Trooper, I need someone to help me dig salt."


The Byn is already the best setup clan in the game in my opinion in terms of reflecting exactly what they are. I don't think they need any love.


Salarr and Kadius, especially their hunter branches....especially Kadius....they need some love.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 10:10:46 AM by Desertman »
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Reiloth

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Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 01:51:53 PM »
The other thing to consider is longevity within a role (when it comes to seeing Corporals decked out in gear, etc.)

Some of these PCs have been in the role for over a RL year, sometimes longer, and when that is the case, they just accumulate crap. Sometimes it's cool crap, like the Spear from Hell and the Ridged Pectorals of Awesome, and for the most part the cool crap is what they are wearing. I don't think that means anything besides they've been around for a while, saved up money/blew some people who had money, and made it happen eventually.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~