Widespread Literacy (The Way sub-idea)

[Harmless]

Elves, and I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread, but:

instead of an absolute range limit, which is a very sudden and drastic change to game mechanics and how plots would work, how about we change how contact works as so:

When you type contact (name), you begin to form a connection to that person. If you're in the same city, and you have decent skill (advanced or higher, let's say) of contacting, then you make contact immediately and it works like it does now.

But, if you are contacting from Allanak to Tuluk, you initially fail, but if you keep trying, you slowly build up a partially formed connection. This would look to you like you just didn't find them, but unbeknownst to you, the game is keeping track of a "connection strength" and each time you try to contact them you get closer to doing it.

Being able to contact between Allanak and Tuluk is now a lot harder, but not impossible. For a skilled person contacting another, it should take about half of your average person's mental reserve to do this, so like, three to five tries of contacting, before you find them.

Maybe the Way counts on lots of psionically capable minds being in the vicinity of your target to work, or maybe it could work the other way around, where people who are really isolated in the Known are really -easy- to contact. But either way, the ability to contact someone becomes an additive process, that skill contributes to (and maybe certain attribute scores), that psionicists don't need to bother with, and which hides from you the exact nature of where your target is (though if you easily contact them, THEY MIGHT BE CLOSE TO YOU)

[Delirium]

At the VERY least, I'd really like to see the order of N/PCs randomized for Way contacts so that you can't just "contact blond" and instantly get the first PC with "blond" in their sdesc. Or, on the flipside, "contact blond", get an NPC, and know that the PC is not online. Time to go rob ol' Blondie's campsite!

[Eyeball]

One possibility would be to have literacy remain illegal, but have criminals sell it.

Say there's some exile living in the 'rinth willing to teach how to read and write sirihish for the right price. There have been instances of defrocked PC templars fleeing into the 'rinth before, so it's not so far-fetched.

The Guild could provide access to this exile (e.g. safe escort to him). Maybe he moves about and keeps his sdesc hidden so some templar can't just march several half-giant soldiers into the 'rinth and execute him so easily.

[Fujikoma]

Hardened, vicious thugs forsake trading drugs for something even more dangerous: Books.

[Patuk]

One possibility would be to have literacy remain illegal, but have criminals sell it.

Say there's some exile living in the 'rinth willing to teach how to read and write sirihish for the right price. There have been instances of defrocked PC templars fleeing into the 'rinth before, so it's not so far-fetched.

The Guild could provide access to this exile (e.g. safe escort to him). Maybe he moves about and keeps his sdesc hidden so some templar can't just march several half-giant soldiers into the 'rinth and execute him so easily.

Elves.

[Reiloth]

A problem I could envision from an OOC playability standpoint is -- It's difficult as it is to get a hold of a PC in game, people like Templars and Nobles and GMH merchants. Imagine how difficult it would be to get the message to your messenger when both of you are online, for the messenger to find/get the message to the PC they need to deliver it to, and then for the Messenger to return the message to you.

It'll just take a lot longer. Which i'm fine with -- As long as everyone makes a pact not to get their undies in a bunch when it takes a RL month to get a message back and forth.

[Patuk]

A problem I could envision from an OOC playability standpoint is -- It's difficult as it is to get a hold of a PC in game, people like Templars and Nobles and GMH merchants. Imagine how difficult it would be to get the message to your messenger when both of you are online, for the messenger to find/get the message to the PC they need to deliver it to, and then for the Messenger to return the message to you.

It'll just take a lot longer. Which i'm fine with -- As long as everyone makes a pact not to get their undies in a bunch when it takes a RL month to get a message back and forth.

With things like lockers and even the bury code, I think we will manage.

[Reiloth]

It'd be cool if it was similar to Rome, where literacy is common for things like ledger notes, business signs, and messages, but pontification on society, or treatises on the treatment of elves, basically anything considered political science or social philosophy, would still be outlawed. Making writing those texts oh-so-dangerous and delicious.

Could also make for fun confiscations by soldiers and Templars, if they suspect you are in possession of said writing, or know someone who is.

A lack of literacy in a text-based game does only make a certain amount of sense. While I explained earlier why the Templarate in both Allanak and Tuluk would want to suppress common literacy (It does make sense), perhaps another scenario where it does make sense to have somewhat common literacy could also be put into play.

It seems like most of the player base would enjoy to have some form of more-common literacy in ArmageddonMUD, and it would only serve to enrich the community with writings galore. I suppose I could come around on an idea like this. My vet-brain just can't wrap its head around the concept, because literacy has always been super off-limits illegal, but it's not a bad idea.

[Redheart]

PROPAGANDA

[Reiloth]

PROPAGANDA

That's a good point, too. Big Brother signs / leaflets galore in Tuluk.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

We need a dwarf PC with a focus to spread literacy to the known. (or just any other pc who wants to) He/she can roleplay out making the language, perhaps sirihish, perhaps mirukkim, or something completely unique and unrelated to common words. Then he/she can start spreading it around behind the backs of the higher powers and see if it catches on. If so, then over time, perhaps it can grow more and more common, while any PC who picks it up will need to be cautious of their local templarate finding out. And if not, well, the big folks in charge won this round, and someone can try again later.

Would be much more epic than having it just gradually become a thing behind the scenes, not to mention it being an ongoing things between the commoners and the nobility/highborn, if it remains illegal. Would also be a thing to have the templarate having to find PCs to read such texts for them, since it was completely unregulated by the powers that be.

A lack of literacy is a control method, one that keeps the populace in check. I can't see why the higher powers in the city-states would suddenly give the sheep such a powerful tool. However, if the sheep were to smoothly slip it in between the cracks though, it'd be amazing, and tons of awesome could come from it. Tons of awesome could even come from the failed attempts, mass behandings, blindings, etc to show the people they're making their betters mad.

tldr; I'd support literacy amongst the common, so long as it came with the associated risks literacy would have in a setting where it's forbidden. PCs bringing the change about ICly would make it even more awesome.

(And I very much support Way limiting as well, even if it would throw a wrench in a lot of current things.)

[BadSkeelz]

I agree fully with Hicksville Hoochie, and have been doing some not-so-idle thinking on just how to execute her plan since this thread began.

[Desertman]

Elves, and I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread, but:

instead of an absolute range limit, which is a very sudden and drastic change to game mechanics and how plots would work, how about we change how contact works as so:

When you type contact (name), you begin to form a connection to that person. If you're in the same city, and you have decent skill (advanced or higher, let's say) of contacting, then you make contact immediately and it works like it does now.

But, if you are contacting from Allanak to Tuluk, you initially fail, but if you keep trying, you slowly build up a partially formed connection. This would look to you like you just didn't find them, but unbeknownst to you, the game is keeping track of a "connection strength" and each time you try to contact them you get closer to doing it.

Being able to contact between Allanak and Tuluk is now a lot harder, but not impossible. For a skilled person contacting another, it should take about half of your average person's mental reserve to do this, so like, three to five tries of contacting, before you find them.

Maybe the Way counts on lots of psionically capable minds being in the vicinity of your target to work, or maybe it could work the other way around, where people who are really isolated in the Known are really -easy- to contact. But either way, the ability to contact someone becomes an additive process, that skill contributes to (and maybe certain attribute scores), that psionicists don't need to bother with, and which hides from you the exact nature of where your target is (though if you easily contact them, THEY MIGHT BE CLOSE TO YOU)

This wouldn't change anything from the way things currently work.

Attempting to contact repeatedly until you get it would still be a lot easier and thus the primary choice/default choice to sending messages over actually sending couriers.

This is a perfect example of change that would be nothing but a pain in the ass to players, while adding absolutely nothing to the game for those pains.

[manonfire]

You know that scene with Gage Gritshaw and Sharlo Kadius torturing that woman? (The log is in the submissions.)

All of that happened apparently because one scroll that was written by someone got intercepted/lost and Sharlo Kadius was trying to get it back/find out what happened to it.

Imagine if messages were constantly sent that way instead of just being "magic insta-Wayed" for everything.

My PC (who is referenced briefly in that log) found the corpse of the dude who was carrying it in the streets of Allanak and looted him and, knowing that Seli would run her mouth to either Edom or Gage about the scroll, gave it to her for safekeeping.

It was the only proxy assassination I've ever planned that went off without a hitch.

Reading that log is so goddamn gratifying.

[Desertman]

A lack of literacy is a control method, one that keeps the populace in check. I can't see why the higher powers in the city-states would suddenly give the sheep such a powerful tool.

For unknown reasons the humanoids of the Known, with the exception of psions, suddenly have their ability to use the Way extremely hampered. (I can actually think of recent IC events to help explain this.)

Tektolnes and the Sun King realize without the ability for the common merchants/population to send messages between city states and distant outposts, that the economy of both cities is about to start severely suffering.

The old method of using the Way to instant-transport communications between trading partners ect is a thing of the past.

There has to be trade. The spice must flow.

Literacy is released gradually to the population as a means of making the economy and long-range communication between the traders of the Known that are the lifeblood of society continue to function.

They actually fit pretty well together. They go very well hand in hand this way.

[HavokBlue]

If we assume that most of the economy is run by merchant houses and that there is a degree is literacy already in the merchant houses, your explanation doesn't really work.

[Fujikoma]

From what I've observed, Merchant houses seem to sit on their coin, the family members raking in the lion's share, while their hunters are barely scraping enough to afford the goods produced by the house, while also having to bring in the materials. Perhaps I've not been close enough to their dealings to observe, but I don't see many coins flowing into the lower rungs of the player economy through these channels. Mostly, I'd imagine, independents are supposed to handle that end of things, and remain low enough on the radar not to arouse the ire of the houses, who sit on enough coin to bury them hundreds of times over.

[Desertman]

If we assume that most of the economy is run by merchant houses and that there is a degree is literacy already in the merchant houses, your explanation doesn't really work.

That is if we assume that.

The merchant Houses have a monopoly on the trade of finished goods.

That does not mean they have a monopoly on the logistics surrounding everything that gets them the materials and workforce to sell those finished goods nor does it mean they work only with those that are literate in order to accomplish those tasks.

[Harmless]

Well dman. Your critique of my idea is fair.

But now I also feel your idea for the way is just the same. Nothing but a pain in the ass with no improvements to playability.

Why not just suggest to remove the way altogether?

[Desertman]

Well dman. Your critique of my idea is fair.

But now I also feel your idea for the way is just the same. Nothing but a pain in the ass with no improvements to playability.

Why not just suggest to remove the way altogether?

My idea lets locals in the same vicinity who wouldn't use couriers to communicate anyways still communicate with relative ease. There is no gain in taking that ability away. It would add no potential and only be a pain. Newbies can still find employers. Locals who know each other and want to arrange meetings can do so easily. This is a playability concern.

It is being limited for world-wide-instant-usage for all of the economic and roleplay opportunities such a limitation would present to the game world as a whole as detailed multiple times by myself and other players throughout this thread. Please re-read the thread for details that pertain to that topic, I don't feel like quoting it all again.

We wouldn't remove the Way altogether and instead only limit it in the fashion I have suggested for these reasons.

[BadSkeelz]

If it's a choice between no literacy (status quo) and literacy being introduced by Sorcerer King fiat, I'd rather see the status quo maintained. Simply dumping literacy in the game world would be jarring and, frankly, uninspiring.  Literacy should be possible, but it should have to be fought for and defended vigorously from the powers that be. If it's simply there, then it's going to get used for mundane or melodramatic nonsense like Is Friday is scared of. Melodrama arises when there's not enough real conflict going around. A struggle between an underground movement for literacy and the templarates would provide real conflict.

It would help if there was some sort of incentive for large portions of commoners to seek out literacy, so limitations on the Way are still worth considering. Commoners have gotten by for 2000 years without being able to write shit down. What would cause them to risk their lives to change that? A focused dwarf may be able to get a writing system developed, but without some sort of incentive (such as the Way becoming less reliable) I don't see why your average commoner would care to use it.

[Desertman]

If it's a choice between no literacy (status quo) and literacy being introduced by Sorcerer King fiat, I'd rather see the status quo maintained. Simply dumping literacy in the game world would be jarring and, frankly, uninspiring.  Literacy should be possible, but it should have to be fought for and defended vigorously from the powers that be. If it's simply there, then it's going to get used for mundane or melodramatic nonsense like Is Friday is scared of. Melodrama arises when there's not enough real conflict going around. A struggle between an underground movement for literacy and the templarates would provide real conflict.

I would prefer to see this implemented by subtle changes and efforts put through on the part of the playerbase.

It would feel a lot more "organic" to the world of Zalanthas. I don't disagree there. That is absolutely the ideal scenario and I would love that.

The problem is that if this was going to happen it probably would have happened in the last 20 years, and it hasn't.

This is the sort of change that almost HAS to be put through on the part of the staff in a wide-scale manner if it is ever going to be put through at all.

First, you have to have a PC that CAN read and write (meaning they have staff approval already for those skills) defect from the organization they are a part of (currently Merchant or Noble Houses or the Templarate) and then successfully against insurmountable odds including Tektolnes and Muk Utep themselves manage to teach a lot of other PC's how to read and write. You would have to teach hundreds over the course of years to read and write for this to actually change in the game world its self on any meaningful scale.

I agree it would be awesome if it did happen organically, but if that is the only way it "can happen", it simply won't happen.

It would help if there was some sort of incentive for large portions of commoners to seek out literacy, so limitations on the Way are still worth considering. Commoners have gotten by for 2000 years without being able to write shit down. What would cause them to risk their lives to change that? A focused dwarf may be able to get a writing system developed, but without some sort of incentive (such as the Way becoming less reliable) I don't see why your average commoner would care to use it.

Yeah, the Way becoming more limited would be a good gateway to IC'ly explaining widespread literacy as a whole becoming a necessity.  

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Calavish is suppose to be a language based on trade with rudimentary wording. As long as this standard was maintained in writings, and thus limited in conveyance of detailed information, I could see the Kings allowing open use of it, as the Way becamebegins to fade in range.

[Harmless]

It would open up a lot of things.

Messages would have to be carried between cities. This is a given.

Someone has to guard those messengers. Suddenly there are more escorts happening.

Someone has to guard those spies.

Someone has to find out what happened to that messenger who fell between cities, and of course, get that secret scroll containing all of muh sekrits back!

Someone has to kill that messenger who decided to change sides with my secret messages in hand! Damn him/her!

Someone has to ride out into the distant wilderness where that traitor is rumored to have disappeared to and confirm if they are actually there, or if they are actually dead.

Someone has to be that raider who occasionally rides in from the distant wastes where his camp is at to raid before disappearing back out there, where nobody can find his mind eighty five times a day to confirm if he still alive to keep hunting him.

Someone has to take that aide that changed sides and committed treason out to a remote location and occasionally bring them supplies and keep them hidden until everyone forgets they existed and they won't just be able to use The Way to keep stalking them until their death.

Someone has to do a lot of things and create a lot of roleplay and plotlines that currently just don't exist because we all have super-instant-smartphones-in-our-heads that work throughout the Known without fail.

What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages. The isolation would become harrowing, we'd feel like we were playing different games when we play in different cities, and we'd be more fractured as a playerbase. The staff may try to protect the existing power structures with things like more spawned in NPC guards, so that frequent messaging is possible, but then people would complain that they are fighting NPCs all the time and the current power structures (houses, nobles) will just be getting imm-buffed to keep existing.

On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.

The way however exists for OOC reasons.  The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract  when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think  it is still preferable to negotiate  and abuse mind to  mind.


I approve of more illegal literacy, though there  seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps  in game to be the change.

I agree with you. But, instead of just saying OOC reasons and playable, let's explore that.

The Way creates a "deus ex machina" that gets plots moving. The inhuman coordination that people achieve in Zalanthas is a lot like what we enjoy with cell phones, sure. But the effect on the setting is multi-level, complex, and is what makes the setting itself unique. The templars have God-king given powers that have the same effect, but the Way is how every underling (PC) can participate in a taste of that "godliness." They can communicate with their templars or other such powerful allies instantly, from anywhere, reliably... the work of assassinating someone is now a huge task, the work of sneaking anything by someone is huge... the time window you have between catching a spy and killing them without the act being found is seconds. That's a huge component of how plots become interesting in Armageddon, because this power makes things happen.

The amount of risk in carrying a message is huge, because in order for there to be any risk at all in delivering anything, it has to be huge equally for all travellers. That means that a tremendous amount of mundane communication will be deemed too dangerous to have.. furthering the isolation.

We know a lot of people play this game for social reasons. If you cut off that mundane chatter, the "gossip between aides" as is Friday puts it, then I guarantee you people will be unhappy with the change.

When trying to re-assign people to one or the other garrison, for example, there will be a much different take on that. People will bitch.


Anyway, there's a LOT of ways that this idea sucks ass. So, sorry, metekillot, D-man, there are reasons not to do this to the Way.

[Desertman]

What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.

Except I'm not. You are looking at this from a "real world" perspective. This isn't the equivalent of the telephone going away for the Earth and humans suddenly relying on paper messages. It isn't comparable and your assessment is incorrect in every way, in my opinion. Also, Zalanthas is already in the "stone age", in a lot of ways.

On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.

I agree.

The way however exists for OOC reasons.  The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract  when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think  it is still preferable to negotiate  and abuse mind to  mind.

I have already covered this in a pervious post.

I approve of more illegal literacy, though there  seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps  in game to be the change.

I don't disagree with this idea, even though this already exists and is possible in game. What you are proposing here is no proposal at all except, "Keep it how it is.".

I agree with you. But, instead of just saying OOC reasons and playable, let's explore that.

The Way creates a "deus ex machina" that gets plots moving. The inhuman coordination that people achieve in Zalanthas is a lot like what we enjoy with cell phones, sure. But the effect on the setting is multi-level, complex, and is what makes the setting itself unique. The templars have God-king given powers that have the same effect, but the Way is how every underling (PC) can participate in a taste of that "godliness." They can communicate with their templars or other such powerful allies instantly, from anywhere, reliably... the work of assassinating someone is now a huge task, the work of sneaking anything by someone is huge... the time window you have between catching a spy and killing them without the act being found is seconds. That's a huge component of how plots become interesting in Armageddon, because this power makes things happen.

The amount of risk in carrying a message is huge, because in order for there to be any risk at all in delivering anything, it has to be huge equally for all travellers. That means that a tremendous amount of mundane communication will be deemed too dangerous to have.. furthering the isolation.

We know a lot of people play this game for social reasons. If you cut off that mundane chatter, the "gossip between aides" as is Friday puts it, then I guarantee you people will be unhappy with the change.

When trying to re-assign people to one or the other garrison, for example, there will be a much different take on that. People will bitch.


Anyway, there's a LOT of ways that this idea sucks ass. So, sorry, metekillot, D-man, there are reasons not to do this to the Way.

All of your points here have already been covered in the thread. All I can say is I have already addressed your concerns previously and I believe you are wrong in every way. I will agree to disagree with you.