Author Topic: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?  (Read 15379 times)

janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2014, 11:21:51 PM »
I give about 5% of my annual revenue to charities. I'm huge on stopping world hunger. And no I don't do it for tax reasons.

I haven't put money into a savings account since 2008 because of the super low interest rates. I invest heavily, and by investing I'm spreading the wealth to other businesses (most of them are bluechip though).

But let's look at this guy, yeah?

https://www.ted.com/talks/bill_and_melinda_gates_why_giving_away_our_wealth_has_been_the_most_satisfying_thing_we_ve_done
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2014, 11:23:06 PM »
Do all mega wealthy people give money to help people in need?

I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.
Factors like life-experience, spiritual/moral/religious beliefs, and early life parental/mentor(ial?) guidance have much more to do with the answer to your question.

Your argument did nothing to answer my question.  If some people do not "hoard" wealth, how do they deal with problems that they or their family, friends, neighbors (in the general sense of the word) encounter in life?  Debt? Debt is obtained by getting money from people/businesses who hoard wealth.  The gub-m'nt?  Government aide is obtained from a government who hoards wealth or a government who indebted themselves to a government or business who hoards wealth.

Edited to fix punctuation mistake.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:29:17 PM by FantasyWriter »
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2014, 11:27:05 PM »
Random related question: How come the income tax percentage gets higher the more money you make, but the percentage of money you can claim to have donated to charity does not?
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

Mood

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2014, 11:31:51 PM »
I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.

you'd be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:35:48 PM by Mood »
Quote from: H. L.  Mencken
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2014, 11:32:48 PM »
Do all mega wealthy people give money to help people in need?

I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.
Factors like life-experience, spiritual/moral/religious beliefs, and early life parental/mentor(ial?) guidance have much more to do with the answer to your question.

Your argument did nothing to answer my question.  If some people do not "hoard" wealth, how do they deal with problems that they or their family, friends, neighbors (in the general sense of the word) encounter in life?  Debt? Debt is obtained by getting money from people/businesses who hoard wealth.  The gub-m'nt?  Government aide is obtained from a government who hoards wealth or a government who indebted themselves to a government or business who hoards wealth.

Edited to fix punctuation mistake.

Isn't the government around to make sure taxes get distributed to keep society afloat? Governmental programs, roads, firefighters, policemen... I mean, I understand you think the government is big and bad and that you identify as a conservative or whatever, but I grew up dirt poor because my father was in "debt" to his drug habit, even coming from a relatively affluent family and was basically saved by "gub'ment" assistance.

I don't get how "debt" is obtained by getting money from people who hoard wealth. I don't get that at all. We're all taxed because we need to be, because we don't want to have potholes fucking up our alignments, we want to be safe, we want people to put out our fires, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:35:31 PM by boog »
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2014, 11:35:14 PM »
I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.

]you'd be wrong.

Yeah, it's from the GREATER GOOD "The Science Of Meaningful Life." I love how participants are made to "feel" like they're lower or higher in their social status then asked to split up income. Very good science there :)

Let's see what they ACTUALLY do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2014, 11:35:49 PM »
Also, on the "maintaining or hoarding (to use the more liberal term) wealth is evil" idea, people who are maintaining a large sum of wealth, aren't just piling up money Scrooge McDuck style, they are paying personal/estate employees, buying vehicles, fuel for these vehicles, buying food, throwing parties, investing in new and growing businesses, traveling, and many many other things with their revolving (but growling) capital, and also paying taxes/sales taxes on all of these things.
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Grebber - One who grebs.

boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2014, 11:37:13 PM »
Also, Bill Gates is really the exception rather than the rule. And other bajillionares like him.

And really, FW? Are you... talking about trickle down? Because all the trickle down I've ever gotten is peed on by super rich people and their lobbyists who persuade politicians into terrible decisions by buying food, throwing parties, investing or giving money to business/charities, and all that. ;)
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2014, 11:38:51 PM »
Also, Bill Gates is really the exception rather than the rule. And other bajillionares like him.

So wait, you're saying 81 billionaires giving away at least half their wealth to the poor is... an exception?

Boog, I have a feeling unless they're giving you the money you're going to continue to believe people who have wealth only have it because they're greedy. Maybe they have wealth because they know how to manage it and worked hard to build it up.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


Mood

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2014, 11:41:02 PM »
I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.

]you'd be wrong.

Yeah, it's from the GREATER GOOD "The Science Of Meaningful Life." I love how participants are made to "feel" like they're lower or higher in their social status then asked to split up income. Very good science there :)

Let's see what they ACTUALLY do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge


here you go you crazy little canadian, go hog wild.
Quote from: H. L.  Mencken
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2014, 11:41:36 PM »
Well, I never personally saw where 81 billionares did that. I remember reading about a handful of them like Bill Gates and Zuckerberg doing it.

I think you're being unfair now and making gross assumptions about me, jane, and it's not really appreciated.

I applaud people for doing the sort of charitable work that the Gates family does, and others like them. I think it's great. I just wasn't aware of the vast amount of numbers of people doing it, as I've really, again, only read about handfuls of them doing it.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2014, 11:44:01 PM »
Well, I never personally saw where 81 billionares did that. I remember reading about a handful of them like Bill Gates and Zuckerberg doing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge

It's right there. 81 names of billionaires who are giving away at least half of their wealth in their lifetimes.

EDIT:

Actually it's 144 now..
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:53:23 PM by janeshephard »
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2014, 11:55:16 PM »
Ted Turner damn well better have signed that shit, considering how incredibly horrible Time Warner is.

Badum-tch.

Anyway, philanthropy is good. But is that a majority of billionaires? What are the rest of them doing? I dunno.

Regardless, this isn't about them. It's about us. I don't think any of us are even close to that sort of wealth.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2014, 11:57:07 PM »
It's really a rebuttal to what Mood is saying. He's latched onto a group of studies that are implying having wealth and social status makes you less likely to help others, and more likely to keep a bigger piece of your pie.

I do not think that is true in practice.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2014, 12:06:13 AM »
I think which income bracket someone is in has very little to do with how much they give to charity.

you'd be wrong.

I live in the state with the lowest per-capita income and the second highest per-capita charitable donations.  The first does not have a low capita income.
I live in a conservative state with the second highest per-capita charitable donations. The first is also a conservative state.
I live in a Bible Belt state with the second highest per-capita charitable donations. The first is noted to be a state with a strong religious background.
I just read an article about a study that only relayed information about one aspect of the surveyed group's lives. This study seemed to also be done with their “result” in mind before it started, but I'm not sure beause I can't see the study itself.

And really, FW? Are you... talking about trickle down?

No, I made a separate post (not replying to anyone in particular) to say that not -all- accumulated wealth sits stagnantly in a bank vault a la Scrooge McDuck which is what I picture every times I see the phrase “hording wealth.” ;)

Isn't the government around to make sure taxes get distributed to keep society afloat? Governmental programs, roads, firefighters, policemen.

Yes, government exists to protect its citizens and provide temporary assistance for them in times of need, however long or severe they may be.  I do believe that the government spends a great deal of money on things that do not fall under this purview, but that is a discussion for a whole other thread that will eventually be locked.


I don't get how "debt" is obtained by getting money from people who hoard wealth.

When you want a car/boat/house/grant-or-loan-for-a-community-garden (how is that going, by the way?), you get these things by asking for money from a company who piles up money hoping to loan it to someone for a profit or a organization who piles up money hoping to give it to someone who will see a return financial or otherwise (benefit to their community/increased revenue for the community, etc).
Please explain to me where you think money comes from when someone does not have it.

Well, I never personally saw where 81 billionares did that. I remember reading about a handful of them like Bill Gates and Zuckerberg doing it.

It's because unlike celebrities and politicians, some people like to do good because it is the right things to do, not because it will give them the attention or votes that they think they deserve.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 12:12:51 AM by FantasyWriter »
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2014, 12:22:46 AM »
I hope you're not being snarky about the community garden. I put my soul into this soil!

In reality, I'm footing the bill myself because there wasn't any grant money to allot this year to anyone. I tried applying for quite a few grants, too, and nothing panned out.

And I'd -heard- about the "giving half of our money away" when it first began and its numbers were, well, small. I don't read up on financial magazines or websites or anything of that to keep updated because, lol, #poorpeopleaintgottimeforthat!
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2014, 12:33:56 AM »
No, not at ALL! Huge gardener and a big fan of community gardens, I just haven't seen anything about it on the GDB in a while!!!

If work ever slows down again, I have been wanting to try and get a grant from Mississippi Department of Ag to push an awareness campiagn in my area and hopefully the state at large.
Most people do not know that you can buy seeds and food-plant starts with our SNAP (food stamps) program, and I want to give away free small planting beds (2'x8' and up) and educational material to help teach people how to grown some of their own food and save money/learn a trade/create additional income.  I started recycling and reconditioning pine crates from my work into raised/portable garden beds that would otherwise have been scrapped and thrown into a landfill.  I have my small yard full, have sold some and given some away.  Would like to do more.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2014, 12:36:23 AM »
Completely off topic.

I would use SNAP to buy seeds, but I can't buy any around here that aren't Monsanto seeds, and well, before manonfire gets to typing about how stupid I am for not supporting genetically engineered seed or crops, I'd rather just shell that out, and like, buy produce that is non-GMO and save the seeds after consuming them.

Anyway, back to taxes. Taxes suck, but we have to pay them. It will never change. Just be glad you don't live in like, Denmark or Sweden or Norway, guys!
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2014, 12:44:20 AM »

Are wealthy people (financially) conservative because they are wealthy or are they wealthy because they are (financially) conservative?


Seriously though, there is no easy/right/perfect way to tax a citizenry fairly and still get the job done.  We have what we have, and a major overhaul is unlikely in the near future.
There are things I like about the "Fair Tax" idea and thinks that I don't, namely that most of the politicians pushing for it are likely doing so for votes rather than believing it is what is best for the country.

As politically incorrect as it is to say so, I think the best thing to do would be for the fed to pass a budget, raise taxes across the board by the exact amount that is cut from spending and balance the God-damn thing like citizens, corporations, and state governments (lulz) have to do.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2014, 08:24:59 AM »
Anyway, back to taxes. Taxes suck, but we have to pay them. It will never change. Just be glad you don't live in like, Denmark or Sweden or Norway, guys!

The poverty rate is mostly the same between Scandinavia and the United States; however Scandinavians have universal health care and other benefits Americans don't.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/09/we-can-reduce-poverty-if-we-want-we-just-have-want

"There's no Scandinavian miracle that provides high-paying jobs for everyone. However, once you account for government benefits, the poverty rate in the Nordic countries is about half the rate in America. Universal health care accounts for some of this..."

So yeah! You should be SO GLAD you're not living there! You might actually have real health care and other benefits.

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

"Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.[5]"

Sure glad! Damn, those people living in Skyrim sure have it bad!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 08:29:16 AM by janeshephard »
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


FantasyWriter

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    • Tales of Then--Reflections of Now
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2014, 08:53:22 AM »
Jane, I haven't had time to look into it and likely won't for a while, so do you know how they " maximizing labor force participation" while maintaining a "welfare state"?

I have always viewed those two ideals as polar opposites in most cases, mostly from my personally life experience of knowing way too many people who are on government aide because 1) they don't want to work/go to school/better themselves or 2) are in a situation where making more money would actually HURT them by cutting government benefits disproportionately to what they would gain by increasing their income. 
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2014, 09:15:32 AM »
They're not opposites. In fact they're very compatible.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


boog

  • Posts: 10939
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #97 on: April 03, 2014, 09:19:34 AM »
I was invoking comedy, because I obviously support taxes to provide for others. How could I possibly want fair taxes, or taxes at all, or discuss the plight of the poor if I'm going to blast a model that does it right? ???

The sarcasm you're displaying is ridiculous. It's not becoming and is the reason people are abrasive to you on the GDB, jane.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2014, 09:20:46 AM »
Wait, you're being sarcastic and that's OK, but when I do it I'm a bitch?
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2014, 09:23:20 AM »
I'm not doing it to demean or attack anyone.

So, yeah. You'd be right.

I was referencing the happiest people in the world to allude to taxes being used purposefully, welfare states or not. You were using it to cut me down.

Tone. Placement. Use.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.