Author Topic: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?  (Read 13218 times)

Sephiroto

  • Posts: 2830
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2014, 04:44:46 PM »
You, like most people, donít understand the marginal tax rates of the progressive income tax system.

I've found this to be the case more often than not.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7997
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2014, 04:59:49 PM »
You don't think the tax on 'stuff'  you're proposing will work out well for the poor?

I don't think it's fair, because rich people can, weirdly enough, afford to buy. But if I'm gonna have to pay even more for food, clothes, or other essentials, that seems a little... skewed.

The idea is you will have more to pay for those things because you won't be paying any income tax.

The poor already don't pay much income tax, and some don't pay any. So instead of paying less (since you can't pay less than 0), they'll have to now pay more, every time they buy something.

I'm already overburdened with federal income tax, state income tax, state sales tax, sewer useage tax, federal communications tax, property tax, car tax, the occasional "we fucked up and underbudgeted last year so we're raising your right-to-exist-tax." All this, in one of the highest cost-of-living states in the country.

If they can't suck it out of you via income tax, you can bet your ass they'll impose enough sales tax to suck the SAME amount from you - or more. Or they'll just create new taxes to cover whatever they're not getting from you via income tax.

And then, they'll impose another tax, just because you had the nerve to suggest they shouldn't do that. They'll call it the "fuck you" tax. And you'll pay it, or they'll put a lein on your house.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2014, 05:00:54 PM »

You, like most people, donít understand the marginal tax rates of the progressive income tax system.



Of course these numbers are just examples and not a perfect representation of the current tax code.


You and I are in agreement on every point, I just didn't look up the exact numbers. Thanks for taking the time though. I just wanted to quickly illustrate the overall concept of "making more money and less money puts you in a different percentile tax bracket".

The point to the post was, "Poor people can't be taxed at the same percentile tax rate as wealthy people because of math and quality of life concerns." Which is also applicable using exact numbers, if I had cared to take the time to look them up with Google.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:12:11 PM by Desertman »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2014, 05:07:05 PM »
You don't think the tax on 'stuff'  you're proposing will work out well for the poor?

I don't think it's fair, because rich people can, weirdly enough, afford to buy. But if I'm gonna have to pay even more for food, clothes, or other essentials, that seems a little... skewed.

The idea is you will have more to pay for those things because you won't be paying any income tax.

The poor already don't pay much income tax, and some don't pay any. So instead of paying less (since you can't pay less than 0), they'll have to now pay more, every time they buy something.

I'm already overburdened with federal income tax, state income tax, state sales tax, sewer useage tax, federal communications tax, property tax, car tax, the occasional "we fucked up and underbudgeted last year so we're raising your right-to-exist-tax." All this, in one of the highest cost-of-living states in the country.

If they can't suck it out of you via income tax, you can bet your ass they'll impose enough sales tax to suck the SAME amount from you - or more. Or they'll just create new taxes to cover whatever they're not getting from you via income tax.

And then, they'll impose another tax, just because you had the nerve to suggest they shouldn't do that. They'll call it the "fuck you" tax. And you'll pay it, or they'll put a lein on your house.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea, I was just stating what the idea was.
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2014, 05:19:17 PM »
I don't think it's fair, because rich people can, weirdly enough, afford to buy. But if I'm gonna have to pay even more for food, clothes, or other essentials, that seems a little... skewed.

I've pointed out, and so have others, that essentials are exempt.

EDIT:

And yes. If we had a single income tax rate for everyone it would be more fair (even if the math is all wrong). If boog and I both pay 10 cents on the dollar it's more fair in my opinion. We'd both be paying 'our share.'

« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:26:19 PM by janeshephard »
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


boog

  • Posts: 10927
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2014, 05:31:45 PM »
Even though '10 cents' for me is a lot more than for you and your income.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2014, 05:33:42 PM »
Even though '10 cents' for me is a lot more than for you and your income.


Boog, Jane is right. It is "fair", in the most basic and fundamental sense of the word.

The fact it would screw you isn't being factored in, but that isn't what is being discussed.

Jane wouldn't want to see you and your children go hungry for this fairness, she is just saying...fundamentally it is the definition of fair, and to that end, she is right.

It doesn't have to be "right", or even "moral", to be fair.

I was once helping someone move, and they were small and frail and somewhat less than capable of carrying heavy things. I carried their couch by myself. It would have been "fair" for them to at least carry the loveseat alone, but they couldn't. They were physically incapable. It would have literally probably killed them. I put in my fair share, they should have put in their fair share, but it wasn't doable, because of basic physics (the math argument). I carried their loveseat for them. It wasn't fair to me, but it was the right thing to do. (That's not even a made up story. That actually happened. Was a little pissed about it at the time.)

« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:45:49 PM by Desertman »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

boog

  • Posts: 10927
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2014, 05:40:00 PM »
...Right.

I didn't say it wasn't fair. I said it was a bigger chunk out of my income than it would be for her.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2014, 05:40:43 PM »
...Right.

I didn't say it wasn't fair. I said it was a bigger chunk out of my income than it would be for her.

You do realize I am on your side right? (Or at least in the overall scheme of things I lean towards your side.)

I guess I interpreted your "even though" to be taking the fact as a negative. I didn't realize you were just making a statement with no emotional connotation attached. My apology.

Even though '10 cents' for me is a lot more than for you and your income.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:43:55 PM by Desertman »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Sardaukar

  • Posts: 579
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2014, 05:48:08 PM »
And yes. If we had a single income tax rate for everyone it would be more fair (even if the math is all wrong). If boog and I both pay 10 cents on the dollar it's more fair in my opinion. We'd both be paying 'our share.'

Hereís the problem with that, and itís another concept that most people just canít seem to grasp: marginal utility.

If person X only makes $10,000 a year and you make $1,000,000 a year, it doesnít make sense to tax Xís next $1,000 the same as your next $1,000. The next $1,000 for X is super important to her, and it could make the difference for her when it comes to feeding the kids or keeping the heat on in the winter. For you, that extra $1,000 is a rounding error. When you buy a new car you donít even give a crap if the paint color you want costs $1,000 more than the standard colors, you just want the color you want (BRG FTW!). Thatís why we have an income tax system with progressive marginal tax rates.

Also, to again rip from a great essay from Cracked.com of all places:

Quote
But the second part is this idea that asking the rich to pitch in is "punishing" them.

So, Rich Guy, let me explain this as calmly and logically as I can:

Are you fucking 6 years old? Do you still think mom made you clean up your room because she was mean? In the adult world, we get asked to do things because shit needs to get done. It has nothing to do with fairness, it has nothing to do with judging you. It has nothing to do with you at all. There's a whole world out there, with people who need helping and projects that need accomplishing.

You're only being asked to pitch in because you have the resources. You're not a tall person who us[sic] dwarfs are jealously trying to cut down to size. You're a tall person being asked to get something down from a very tall shelf because nobody else can fucking reach it.
(italics in the original)
"An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

- some dude

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2014, 05:52:04 PM »
And yes. If we had a single income tax rate for everyone it would be more fair (even if the math is all wrong). If boog and I both pay 10 cents on the dollar it's more fair in my opinion. We'd both be paying 'our share.'

Hereís the problem with that, and itís another concept that most people just canít seem to grasp: marginal utility.

If person X only makes $10,000 a year and you make $1,000,000 a year, it doesnít make sense to tax Xís next $1,000 the same as your next $1,000. The next $1,000 for X is super important to her, and it could make the difference for her when it comes to feeding the kids or keeping the heat on in the winter. For you, that extra $1,000 is a rounding error. When you buy a new car you donít even give a crap if the paint color you want costs $1,000 more than the standard colors, you just want the color you want (BRG FTW!). Thatís why we have an income tax system with progressive marginal tax rates.


The argument isn't that it makes "sense". I think Jane agrees it makes no practical sense, and may even be morally questionable and possibly even reprehensible.

The argument is that it is "fair", in the most basic sense of the word. Everyone puts in their ten cents, their personal circumstances are their own and they can deal with them, but they are required to put in their ten cents just like me.

It is fair.

I only press this point because that seems to be the horse that is carrying this saddle. The "fairness" argument. It is "fair" for all to have a flat tax rate, and at face value, it absolutely is.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:54:27 PM by Desertman »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2014, 05:54:35 PM »
Yep. I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Desertman.

I'd be happy with the same rate across the board which in fairness is exactly what a sales tax would bring.

I don't have -any- problems spending more on helping people in need, and doing it effectively. None whatsoever. I'd even voluntarily contribute a few more percentage points for such programs if I felt they would benefit the community I live in.

And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2014, 06:01:01 PM »
Yep. I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Desertman.


Well, we both likely value our own personal wealth over the well-being of people whom we have no invested interest in helping directly. Meaning if they aren't in my community and I don't know them...screw'm, I have a family of my own to take care of/computers and stuff to buy.

My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

janeshephard

  • Posts: 4281
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2014, 06:03:07 PM »
No hon, I actually do value human life no matter where it is and give to charity regularly. I grew up piss poor. Most school years I would only have 2-3 outfits max, if you wanted to call them that.

And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19107
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2014, 06:43:06 PM »
No hon, I actually do value human life no matter where it is and give to charity regularly.

That's not what he said. He siad this:

Well, we both likely value our own personal wealth over the well-being of people whom we have no invested interest in helping directly.

Which, unless you're giving everything away, is at least technically true.

Sardaukar

  • Posts: 579
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2014, 06:51:36 PM »
And yes. If we had a single income tax rate for everyone it would be more fair (even if the math is all wrong). If boog and I both pay 10 cents on the dollar it's more fair in my opinion. We'd both be paying 'our share.'

Hereís the problem with that, and itís another concept that most people just canít seem to grasp: marginal utility.

If person X only makes $10,000 a year and you make $1,000,000 a year, it doesnít make sense to tax Xís next $1,000 the same as your next $1,000. The next $1,000 for X is super important to her, and it could make the difference for her when it comes to feeding the kids or keeping the heat on in the winter. For you, that extra $1,000 is a rounding error. When you buy a new car you donít even give a crap if the paint color you want costs $1,000 more than the standard colors, you just want the color you want (BRG FTW!). Thatís why we have an income tax system with progressive marginal tax rates.


The argument isn't that it makes "sense". I think Jane agrees it makes no practical sense, and may even be morally questionable and possibly even reprehensible.

The argument is that it is "fair", in the most basic sense of the word. Everyone puts in their ten cents, their personal circumstances are their own and they can deal with them, but they are required to put in their ten cents just like me.

It is fair.

I only press this point because that seems to be the horse that is carrying this saddle. The "fairness" argument. It is "fair" for all to have a flat tax rate, and at face value, it absolutely is.

Sure. A flat tax is "fair."

...In a sense that a 6 year old would argue. Progressive marginal taxation is also fair, for reasons I explained above about marginal utility. There are lots of things that seem "fair." It would be "fair" for everybody in the US to have the same income, for instance. Or if 4 families were stuck on a sinking ship with 4 lifeboats it would be ostensibly "fair" for each family to get one lifeboat, so the 3 honeymooning couples each get a lifeboat with plenty of extra room, and the Duggers get to decide which 10 of their kids get to die.

So sure: a flat tax is in some sense "fair."
"An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

- some dude

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2014, 07:13:55 PM »
No hon, I actually do value human life no matter where it is and give to charity regularly. I grew up piss poor. Most school years I would only have 2-3 outfits max, if you wanted to call them that.



This has nothing to do with what I said, sweetness. (Has our relationship advanced to pet names? If so, I'm for that.)

Edited to Add: (Didn't realize RGS had beat me to it.)

No hon, I actually do value human life no matter where it is and give to charity regularly.

That's not what he said. He siad this:

Well, we both likely value our own personal wealth over the well-being of people whom we have no invested interest in helping directly.

Which, unless you're giving everything away, is at least technically true.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 07:17:24 PM by Desertman »
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Desertman

  • Posts: 9490
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2014, 07:14:51 PM »
And yes. If we had a single income tax rate for everyone it would be more fair (even if the math is all wrong). If boog and I both pay 10 cents on the dollar it's more fair in my opinion. We'd both be paying 'our share.'

Hereís the problem with that, and itís another concept that most people just canít seem to grasp: marginal utility.

If person X only makes $10,000 a year and you make $1,000,000 a year, it doesnít make sense to tax Xís next $1,000 the same as your next $1,000. The next $1,000 for X is super important to her, and it could make the difference for her when it comes to feeding the kids or keeping the heat on in the winter. For you, that extra $1,000 is a rounding error. When you buy a new car you donít even give a crap if the paint color you want costs $1,000 more than the standard colors, you just want the color you want (BRG FTW!). Thatís why we have an income tax system with progressive marginal tax rates.


The argument isn't that it makes "sense". I think Jane agrees it makes no practical sense, and may even be morally questionable and possibly even reprehensible.

The argument is that it is "fair", in the most basic sense of the word. Everyone puts in their ten cents, their personal circumstances are their own and they can deal with them, but they are required to put in their ten cents just like me.

It is fair.

I only press this point because that seems to be the horse that is carrying this saddle. The "fairness" argument. It is "fair" for all to have a flat tax rate, and at face value, it absolutely is.

Sure. A flat tax is "fair."

...In a sense that a 6 year old would argue. Progressive marginal taxation is also fair, for reasons I explained above about marginal utility. There are lots of things that seem "fair." It would be "fair" for everybody in the US to have the same income, for instance. Or if 4 families were stuck on a sinking ship with 4 lifeboats it would be ostensibly "fair" for each family to get one lifeboat, so the 3 honeymooning couples each get a lifeboat with plenty of extra room, and the Duggers get to decide which 10 of their kids get to die.

So sure: a flat tax is in some sense "fair."

We are in nothing but agreement once more.
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

lordcooper

  • Posts: 7932
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2014, 07:55:01 PM »
When the beer's running out at a party, it's better to ask the guy who brought two 24-packs for a can than they guy who only brought an eight pack.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

fuck authority smoke weed erryday

oh and here's a free videogame.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2014, 10:15:53 PM »
When the beer's running out at a party, it's better to ask the guy who brought two 24-packs for a can than they guy who only brought an eight pack.

What kind of fucked up parties do they have in the UK where people goaltend their own beer offerings?  Every place I've been, if you bring beer to a party, that beer is community beer as soon as it hits the doormat.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19107
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2014, 10:28:23 PM »
When the beer's running out at a party, it's better to ask the guy who brought two 24-packs for a can than they guy who only brought an eight pack.

What kind of fucked up parties do they have in the UK where people goaltend their own beer offerings?  Every place I've been, if you bring beer to a party, that beer is community beer as soon as it hits the doormat.

Yeah, and when the party runs out, usually a bunch of different people offer to chip in for more. If people want their own stash buy a forty or a small bottle of something hard.

BleakOne

  • Posts: 2674
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2014, 10:32:59 PM »
Dude, it was totally like, metaphorical... I think.
Vennant doesn't appear to age because he serves drinks at the speed of light. Now you know why there's no delay on the buy code in the Gaj.

boog

  • Posts: 10927
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2014, 10:54:49 PM »
I think they're just being purposefully obtuse. ;)
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.

FantasyWriter

  • Posts: 9774
    • Tales of Then--Reflections of Now
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2014, 10:58:00 PM »
I'm against providing further incentive for people to hoard wealth.

You prefer people to make major purchases/pay for education/help others in time of need/provide a head start for the next generation of their family how exactly?
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

boog

  • Posts: 10927
Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2014, 11:03:07 PM »
Do all mega wealthy people give money to help people in need?

Hell, I give what I can and I don't have much myself.

I've worked in one of the richest communities in NC, and I gotta say, in my anecdotal experience, the richer they are, the less likely they are to give any money to anything. St. Jude's? ALS foundations? Brenner Children's Hospital? Girl Scout Cookies outside? None of the above.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
Kismet: didn't see you in GQ homey
BadSkeelz: Whatever you say, Kim Jong Boog
Quote from: Tuannon
There is only one boog.