Author Topic: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?  (Read 13219 times)

adriannetwork

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Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« on: April 01, 2014, 03:17:50 PM »
Meh

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:24:33 PM by adriannetwork »

Brytta Léofa

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 03:32:35 PM »
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 03:43:11 PM »
I recall having this "discussion" a while back and getting called a tax-cheat among other things because I advocated for the removal of income tax, and setting a higher flat sales tax.

So good luck with this on these forums :)
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


Brytta Léofa

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 03:56:57 PM »
I don't think the FairTax is politically viable. You can't get an ideologically pure tax system passed through the U.S. Congress, whether it's the FairTax or a flat income tax or a 90% income tax bracket. Congress makes its living by fomenting conflict over this stuff.

I do question what the effects of a very high sales tax would be (a nation of flea markets? is that good or bad?), and the desirability of putting everyone on a monthly government paycheck. And, yes, the IRS is a more abusive than average agency, but that's not really a problem of tax policy; it's more that the bureaucracy is more powerful than the elected government.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 03:59:29 PM by Brytta Léofa »
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 04:00:45 PM »
It's really simple math.

You keep everything you earn. No income tax.

When you spend, you're taxed.

People will then spend normally when economic times are good, and not as much when income is tight. The government then has a real reason to institute policies to help people maintain healthy incomes because it encourages spending which ends up in higher tax revenues.

It really all works out better in the end.

Or you can have the current system where you're taxed on your income and taxed on your spending. Seems legit.
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Brytta Léofa

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 04:07:20 PM »
Hey the fairtax dudes are smart guys I'm cool if you want to try it.

It would certainly be beneficial to people who are in debt and not already getting a big break from the mortgage interest deduction.
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Lizzie

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 04:20:43 PM »
It's really simple math.

You keep everything you earn. No income tax.

When you spend, you're taxed.

People will then spend normally when economic times are good, and not as much when income is tight. The government then has a real reason to institute policies to help people maintain healthy incomes because it encourages spending which ends up in higher tax revenues.

It really all works out better in the end.

Or you can have the current system where you're taxed on your income and taxed on your spending. Seems legit.


Seems legit to me. I don't like the proportions, but I like the idea. I mean the idea of how it is presently. Not everyone spends equally. And people who are wealthy have ways of getting out of paying their fair share. And then there are the poor who live in urban areas - they wouldn't have to pay much in income tax anyway, because they're poor. But the price of a loaf of bread is higher in the city than it is in the country - so they'd be the ones bearing the biggest *retail* tax-spending burden. Okay so then you make exceptions for the poor folks. So how do you make up for the loss? You have to tax someone -else- extra. Who, and how?

There's nothing simple about the fair use or the flat tax. If you tax only by income, then people who have no income would pay no tax. If you tax only on sales, then only the people who do the actual buying would pay the tax. Except - what about people who buy things for resale? Who's paying the tax then? The buyer, or the end user? Or both? If it's tax via sales only, then the same loaf of bread would be taxed twice: once by the supermarket who buys from the baker, and a second time by the customer of the supermarket.

A problem we have, is with the differences in geographical locations and the costs of living for each area. If I'm paying $20,000 for a car here in Connecticut, the exact same car might cost $25,000 in California, just because it's in California. It might only be $17,500 in Arkansas. If the country relies exclusively on sales tax for its governmental revenue they'll end up in a world of hurt when people living in expensive locations move to less expensive locations, to avoid overpaying the taxes.

Some states also already have imposed *state* income tax - which the feds can't abolish. And some localities within each state have a local income tax, which the feds also can't abolish.

So you'd have to get every local area that imposes local taxes, and every state that imposes state taxes, to all agree jointly to stop imposing income tax. Otherwise, it won't work.

Good luck.
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2014, 04:56:26 PM »
Lizzie,

A common myth to implementing a higher sales tax and no income tax is that the poor will be taxed more. There are a couple of reasons why this isn't true:

(1) Goods that are necessities do not have to be taxed. In Ontario for example there's a list of goods you do not pay sales tax on http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/hst/exemptions.html

(2) It's not whether you are wealthy or poor that will judge how much of your gross revenue ends up going to tax. It's what you spend that adjusts that. If money is tight you should be saving and only really spending on goods you need (which hopefully would be exempt under any fair system).
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lordcooper

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 05:05:27 PM »
I'm against providing further incentive for people to hoard wealth.
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Brytta Léofa

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 05:07:42 PM »
I'm against providing further incentive for people to hoard wealth.

Savings rates are actually low in the United States.
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 05:08:17 PM »
Who the hell puts money in a savings account anymore?

BITCOINS PEOPLE
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


manonfire

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 05:20:24 PM »
If Fairtax will abolish the capital gains tax, I'm bout it.



Desertman

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2014, 05:21:59 PM »
Poor people already do not pay any income tax. If anything they make so little money they get money back at the end of the year due to the automatic deduction everyone gets. They do however pay sales tax like wealthy people. (To clarify, yes they get money taken out of their paychecks throughout the year, but I always got back more than I paid in at the end of the year because I was poor.)

I know, I was once in this tax bracket. Tax time was epic win. I loved getting that income tax check.

Wealthy people under the current system pay much higher income tax because they make much more money. I pay a lot more in taxes now than I used to pay. They also pay sales tax. I might argue this is unfair to wealthy people, but, they are wealthy. I wouldn't say I am "wealthy", but I'm not hurting. Paying sales tax doesn't even register on my radar when I pay for things. It is so minor as to not even be a consideration for me, and I'm not what I would consider "wealthy". So, I'm sure "wealthy" people having to pay sales tax as well isn't really killing them to the point they can't maintain their wealth.

A sales tax only system does seem to have one key advantage though. It lets wealthy people who make a lot of money pay a lot less in taxes because they only pay taxes on the money they spend, not the money they make. So, unless they are spending a lot of their money (something most wealthy people don't do, the key to being wealthy to begin with is saving more than you spend), they will save a lot of money with a sales tax only system, which is probably the major reason people would push for this. It lets wealthy people be more wealthy more easily.

I would personally save A LOT of money with a sales tax only system, because I spend little of what I make comparatively. I don't blow my money on a lot of stuff, so I wouldn't pay a lot of taxes.

I am for a sales tax only system because it personally benefits me directly. I don't want it because it is "good for the people", it probably isn't, but it is good for me.


« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 05:28:39 PM by Desertman »
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boog

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 05:50:57 PM »
I am for a sales tax only system because it personally benefits me directly. I don't want it because it is "good for the people", it probably isn't, but it is good for me.


That's the problem with taxes!
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 05:57:08 PM »
Desertman is a parody account that's written by a group of Literature students in Whales who are having a laugh at us.

Unbelievable this guy.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


lordcooper

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 06:00:29 PM »
Desertman is a parody account that's written by a group of Literature students in Whales who are having a laugh at us.

Unbelievable this guy.


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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2014, 06:11:10 PM »
What does that mean?
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


lordcooper

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2014, 06:19:07 PM »
It would have been too difficult to take a single picture of them in separate whales, this is the best I can do right now.
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Desertman

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2014, 07:00:49 PM »
Janeshepard is a herp and a derp that thinks they is not, but they is.



« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 07:06:48 PM by Desertman »
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2014, 07:58:00 PM »
It would have been too difficult to take a single picture of them in separate whales, this is the best I can do right now.

LOL. Good one.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


Mood

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 11:48:13 PM »
I recall having this "discussion" a while back and getting called a tax-cheat among other things because I advocated for the removal of income tax, and setting a higher flat sales tax.

So good luck with this on these forums :)


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Patuk

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2014, 09:16:44 AM »
How does the fairtax system take into account that imposing far higher taxes on products will make it much more attractive for people to smuggle things now seen as too mundane to bother with smuggling?
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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2014, 10:09:08 AM »
I recall having this "discussion" a while back and getting called a tax-cheat among other things because I advocated for the removal of income tax, and setting a higher flat sales tax.

So good luck with this on these forums :)


death to the poor. let us feast on their emaciated bodies.

Indeed. And let our infrastructure crumble as well. I travel everywhere by helicopter anyway.
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Desertman

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2014, 10:12:51 AM »
I recall having this "discussion" a while back and getting called a tax-cheat among other things because I advocated for the removal of income tax, and setting a higher flat sales tax.

So good luck with this on these forums :)


death to the poor. let us feast on their emaciated bodies.

Indeed. And let our infrastructure crumble as well. I travel everywhere by helicopter anyway.

Helicopter? Peon. Why don't you get off these boards and go cook a meal for yourself, with your own two hands, peasant.



My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
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janeshephard

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Re: Thoughts on Fairtax.org?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2014, 10:31:39 AM »
How does the fairtax system take into account that imposing far higher taxes on products will make it much more attractive for people to smuggle things now seen as too mundane to bother with smuggling?

That's something for law enforcement to figure out.

It's not going to be so bad. You keep 100% of what you earn and are never penalized for earning more. For every dollar you spend on non-essential goods you end up paying about 23 cents more. So if you buy a luxury car for 100k you pay 23k more in taxes.
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.