Author Topic: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve  (Read 14187 times)

Harmless

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 04:31:26 PM »
Shaleah is right.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I've seen far more examples of everything Shaleah is mentioning than otherwise. It's rare these days that people are inappropriate. However, when that rare PC shows up who doesn't get this fine feature, I prefer to let IC events and happenings teach them how they should behave, because this is one of my favorite aspects of RP in the game. If we discuss it overly on the GDB, with a lot of "you should and will do this and that," no offense or anything cause I agree with you and all, then it kind of cheapens the learning curve. Another thing I won't do is file player complaints... getting a complaint that you're too noobish must be really disheartening.

edited to add: Have you seen the 'Byn lately!?

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« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 06:24:57 PM by Harmless »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 04:32:43 PM »
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.

Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.
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Scarecrow

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 04:45:46 PM »
I really like the racism stuff. I like being racist to elves, breeds and dwarves and I love it when people are very racist back to me. Previous characters of mine (in my dark days of noobage) often had more open outlooks. I attribute that to me being a noob. Now, I love showing the hate.
From a human standpoint, breeds are loathsome things that are pitied and looked down on. Elves are thieving, sneaky bastards who you should always keep an eye on. Dwarves are kind of like a workhorse with a brain, I think they should be treated with a kind of condescension, like a simpleton who is good at being strong and tough, but is still 'a damn stump'. I think thought if your boss is of a higher rank than you, you should probably keep these ideas to yourself. Still think them, but don't say them about that particular specimen.
And yeah. Anyone who mouthes off to Templar can expect to be tortured and killed. In Zalanthas, people don't dig graves with shovels, they dig them with their own tongues.

The average Zalanthan should be a Templar fearing, Noble-boot kissing folk who hates the other races and isn't afraid to show it. Doing anything else risks people thinking you're some kind of weirdo sharp-lover.
The Devil doesn't dawdle.

FreeRangeVestric

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 05:26:24 PM »
Eh. Really gotta disagree on point #1. So long as the wrong company isn't around (I.E: People who would be trusted sources to the Templars), I don't see how this would be enforced. If Amos McGrebber runs up and says, "Lord Templar, Lord Templar! Talia (who you've never heard of beyond this report) said that Lord Tor is a poopyhead after he left the room! Look, this spiced up 'Rinther, a shifty-eyed half-elf and some mutant Byn runner are all backing up my story!", is an execution really going to follow? That doesn't seem like a viable way for a society to sustain itself, as everyone would have a killswitch for anyone that they didn't like that could be used at any time. On top of that, I'd imagine in a setting like the Byn, any runner who runs (heh) to the templars at the first sign of some other runner saying something disrespectful about the wrong person would be viewed in a similar way as a police informant in our world would be by other members of the lower-class.

My experience really only goes as far as Allanak, since I haven't played in Tuluk in a good couple years, and I understand that the dynamic between the king/templarate and the citizens is different there, but I've seen underhanded (not the overt 'it isn't right!' examples in the original post. Those should be laughed at) insults in the direction of the highborn played out in ways that I certainly considered realistic. There was also an IC event not -too- long ago that suggests questioning (and then some) one's so-called betters is not something unheard of in Zalanthas. Not sure if it's alright to bring it up as a specific example, though, so I'll leave that out.

Scarecrow

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 05:36:21 PM »
I'm not talking about Amos running off to Templars to say Malik said Lord Templar Poopy was a Poopyhead. I'm talking about a guy in a tavern, ranting in public about Templars. He can expect to die.
The Devil doesn't dawdle.

FreeRangeVestric

  • Posts: 854
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2014, 05:42:04 PM »
I'm not talking about Amos running off to Templars to say Malik said Lord Templar Poopy was a Poopyhead. I'm talking about a guy in a tavern, ranting in public about Templars. He can expect to die.

Oh. Well than we largely agree, since any tavern in the city at any given time likely has someone within who the templars would trust the word of enough, whether virtual or PC.

I just disagree with the idea that badmouthing templars privately (even semi-privately, really) is dangerous business. Unless you're ranting to Silky McAideson or a soldier, I don't see how the word would ever reach the templars via a source credible to them.

I also didn't mean to make it seem as if my post was a rebuttal of yours. Sowwy!

Harmless

  • Posts: 2784
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2014, 06:30:12 PM »
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.

Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.

Totally true, all of this.

Okay, fuck it, I'm writing up some kudos right now. I had a few interactions recently that I think merit them, because whoever was playing those PCs really grasped what 7DV is getting at. You just motivated me to make those kudos, 7DV!
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thatkid

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2014, 07:14:29 PM »
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.

Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.

You gave a few good examples of how we ought to view other races here, but you left a few out. I also can't really find much in the way of documentation, so here goes:
How should we view half-elves? Just as abominations? Should muls be viewed the same way?
What about half-giants? I know most people are generally nice to them because they're so easy to make use of, but is there some specific view that might be had regarding them?

BleakOne

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 08:45:16 PM »
Half-giants probably receive the best treatment of the non-human species, but only because they respond so well to positive input and are, frankly, freakin' huge. They are useful tools (in every sense of the word) but I doubt many people would ever think of them as anything better than a good, powerful and stupid pet. At worst they are to be exploited and lied to, used as expendable muscle with no thought to the harm that befalls them. 

Muls are a good deal scarier than half-giants, I think. Not only are they usually owned by someone who could kill you for damaging his prized possession, they're capable of tearing you to pieces for looking at them the wrong way, and you never know when one will 'snap'.
Although I imagine a Mul gladiator could get quite a fanbase what with the creative gore shows he could make in the pits.

Half-elves are, as far as I can see, the most kickable of the races. They generally have no tribe, no family and few, if any, friends. The disgust felt towards them can be acted out more brazenly due to this.

Just my two sids on the issues.
Vennant doesn't appear to age because he serves drinks at the speed of light. Now you know why there's no delay on the buy code in the Gaj.

Morrolan

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2014, 03:37:06 AM »
If Amos McGrebber runs up and says, "Lord Templar, Lord Templar! Talia (who you've never heard of beyond this report) said that Lord Tor is a poopyhead after he left the room! Look, this spiced up 'Rinther, a shifty-eyed half-elf and some mutant Byn runner are all backing up my story!", is an execution really going to follow?

Yes. But maybe not the execution that McGrebber was expecting.  ;D
"I have seen him show most of the attributes one expects of a noble: courtesy, kindness, and honor.  I would also say he is one of the most bloodthirsty bastards I have ever met."

Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2014, 09:59:17 AM »
What Bleakone said.

I remember being part of a pretty strong human/dwarf friendship.... that's what the OP reminded me of. This was past the newbie point, and it wasn't facepalming bad, but I wonder if I could have improved upon the realistically of the relationship. Like, how strange would it be for an elf and a dwarf, who click as friends, have by circumstance had to live together for a long time, and in a fairer world would be best friends, to really be best friends as long as they didn't act that way in public, and as long as they retained normal doubts about each other's worth as people? Just realized I really don't have anything good to go on for this.

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2014, 08:10:46 PM »
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.

Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.

Exactly. Don't push yourselves too hard here, folks. You don't have to react to everything different with hate, there are plenty of other ways to express it. While there will certainly be those who react with hate, keep in mind your PCs circumstances and the potential consequences. If your boss is an elf and you backtalk them openly, or say something behind their back, you should definitely be considering what their reaction might be or what form of retribution may take place with your racist view of them. Your PC will KNOW that other PC will have less consideration for your PCs prejudice than their human counterparts, and as such might go a bit further than expected to make an example of someone. While you know Amos the human may consider one punishment appropriate and may apply it openly, who knows what that wicked, scheming sharp will come up with?
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
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whitt

  • Posts: 1694
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2014, 11:22:01 AM »
Exactly. Don't push yourselves too hard here, folks. You don't have to react to everything different with hate, there are plenty of other ways to express it.

Likewise consider how to use this as an expression of dislike for others of your own race.  "Oh, Amos, are you dying of thirst?  I just gave the filthy Elf my last sip of water."
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The Lonely Hunter

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Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2014, 10:12:01 PM »
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.

Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.

Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...

* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease

...think of me. =)
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 7947
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2014, 11:30:34 PM »
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.

Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.

Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...

* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease

...think of me. =)


...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.

That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).

You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

stryph

  • Posts: 4
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2014, 11:52:02 PM »


[/quote]

...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.

That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).

You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.
[/quote]

Is this sarcasm?

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 880
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2014, 12:29:10 AM »
"So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator."

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not. I like to hope not, otherwise this is exactly what I am talking about. So what if they're a breed/gemmer? Really?

If you sit at a bar with a gemmer for too long and you'll get sores in odd places or you just might catch what they have. If a whiran sneezes, you will not be able to rest for a month. A drovian made eye-contact? Thats it, the shadows are going to eat you in your sleep. That breed sitting next to you is an abomination, not your friend. That elf? Bastard just wants to slit your throat and take your 'sid. Everything that has ever gone wrong in your life is likely because of a magicker. Ever loose something? Nope, an elf stole it!
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
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Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2014, 12:44:28 AM »
Coming back after a two year break things are not exactly as I remember them to be. Imagine that.
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
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BleakOne

  • Posts: 2674
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2014, 12:53:11 AM »
I must admit I haven't seen any "hug-fest" going on, but I do agree it's good form to keep fear of magickers, distrust of elves and the like up as much as you can.

Those who be disrespectful to Templars generally do end up dead, from my experience. If the commoner in question is vaguely useful they probably will get a chance to apologize and bribe their way out of it. Also, depending where you live, seeing a Templar leave someone alone doesn't mean the Ministry of Love doesn't come around later and scoop them up, never to be seen again.

Elves are extremely numerous in the vNPC population, so it's a bit silly to sneer and pour scorn on all the elves you see, since you still need a few hours a day to work for sids. Just don't trust or be buddy-buddy with them without -really- good IC reason. You know they are all thieves and liars, even the ones you might dislike less than the rest.

As for the gemmed, only an idiot makes a walking nightmare angry. Imho it's better to fearfully change tables or shift down the bar when a magicker sits at the bar than make a sneer or tell them to fuck off, unless you have some reason to believe they can't make your eyes fall out when they get back to whatever hole they crawled out of.

However, as I said before, I think the perception of a 'hug-fest' is not particularly correct. We can always improve, however, and I for one will make a conscious effort to better my hatin' RP.


Vennant doesn't appear to age because he serves drinks at the speed of light. Now you know why there's no delay on the buy code in the Gaj.

Zerero

  • Posts: 165
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2014, 12:58:21 AM »
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.

Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.

Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...

* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease

...think of me. =)


...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.

That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).

You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.

Because weeks or a month of IG time can provide any reasonable explanation for Dudeson the average-looking human hunter/bynner being buddy-buddy with any city-elf/breed (especially if they're not clanned together), acting like Mr. gemmed is a respectable member of the community, or talking back to a templar instead of cowering in fear and reverence. Note, this is me being goofy. I think those claims are somewhat ridiculous, as it doesn't fit the docs and would be, in my opinion, horrible RP.

And then you go onto say that, for example, people ridiculing that necker's human buddy or that gemmed's buddy will be seen as instigators and end up dead. Please, give me a break. If anything, the one going around and patting breed's on the back or jerking off gemmers should be the one dead. Acting according to the docs shouldn't mark you as abnormal or an asshole who needs to die. <-- edited to be less of a snark
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 01:22:38 AM by Zerero »

Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2014, 01:05:58 AM »
EDI: Deleted, lack of sleep makes me cranky and nasty. Sorry everyone.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 01:12:55 AM by Fujikoma »
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

thatkid

  • Posts: 188
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2014, 01:35:45 AM »
My two sid on the current argument:

Someone posted earlier about a "trust spectrum" or something, and I think that's the most realistic way to handle this sort of thing.

Amos is never going to trust a filthy krathdamned necker just because they happened to drink at the same bar for a while. He might be willing to adjoin said necker's conversations, eventually, if he finds whatever they're talking about to be particularly interesting, sure. There'd still be a healthy bit of distrust, though, sure, because as far as Amos is concerned elves lie, steal, and swindle. They don't know any better, and they can't help it. They shouldn't be trusted, and when something of Amos' goes missing after a night of binge-drinking, that elf who he's sat down the bar from plenty of times before should be a prime suspect. After all, the sharp had plenty of time to stake him out!
He might have a bit more respect or trust for the elf in his clan, if he's employed by a clan that allows elves, but that should probably be decided as a case-by-case basis. If it ever goes beyond "I can probably sleep in the same building as this guy without getting my throat slit," or "we can work together on clan goals, and there's a good chance he won't kill me/leave me for dead right off the bat," it should probably get side-eyed. I'd expect it to.

Like Zerero has said, and plenty of others have pointed out: There is documentation on this. There should be a healthy amount of hate/fear/etc. If a gemmed sits at the bar with you, you should probably at least slide down and away them from a bit.

I haven't seen any of the carebear crap that Lizzie is going on about, and, thank Tek, I haven't seen much or any of the stuff Lonely Hunter is talking about. Sure, everyone, including myself, has room to improve on their hatin', but it's not nearly as terrible as either of you are making it out to be.
If you ask me, the post that kicked off this "discussion" is little more than someone announcing that they're back, and trying to get everyone hyped about how they're going to shake things up. That's cool, man, but maybe show and don't tell.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7947
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2014, 09:00:12 AM »
"So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator."

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not. I like to hope not, otherwise this is exactly what I am talking about. So what if they're a breed/gemmer? Really?

If you sit at a bar with a gemmer for too long and you'll get sores in odd places or you just might catch what they have. If a whiran sneezes, you will not be able to rest for a month. A drovian made eye-contact? Thats it, the shadows are going to eat you in your sleep. That breed sitting next to you is an abomination, not your friend. That elf? Bastard just wants to slit your throat and take your 'sid. Everything that has ever gone wrong in your life is likely because of a magicker. Ever loose something? Nope, an elf stole it!

Except, you AREN'T breaking out in sores, and you AREN'T manifesting magicks. You find, after time, that when this particular gemmer shows up, or that breed who is always there, is there at the bar with you, none of the horrible evil wicked things you've heard will happen, are happening. So you accept that these people are at the bar, and you learn to tolerate those particular mages and breeds, or northerners or rinthis, or whatever they are. You STILL think breeds are abominable, mages are scary and evil, elves steal, Tuluk must be destroyed, and rinthis are pathetic and miserable. But those two particular ones who are always at the bar when you're at the bar, have proven that they can behave civilly when you're in the bar at the same time.

You wouldn't take the gemmer to your apartment to talk. You wouldn't invite the breed over to dinner. You wouldn't go with the rinthi to meet his mom. You wouldn't hand over your pack because the elf wants to see the fibers it's made of closer. But when you're all at the bar together, you will have come to a mutual tolerance with each other, include them when you buy a round for the bar, and perhaps maybe share a joke when someone even more deplorable than they are shows up (such as - the breed gemmer who was originally from Tuluk and has settled into the rinth. That person would be MORE deplorable than the human gemmer, or the rinthi dwarf, or the breed citizen who was born and raised in Nak.)

So no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm saying - as I said before, you show up and observe Amos being friendly with Malik at the bar. But you have no idea how long they couldn't stand each other, feared each other, threatened each other, attempted to avoid each other, until they finally realized that neither of those two people were going to a) go anywhere or b) hurt the other. And finally - they settled into a comfortable bar-comeraderie. Not a personal intimate relationship. Sort of like Lilith and Cliff Claven at the same bar in Cheers. Two people who would otherwise never EVER be seen in the same place at the same time, on purpose, ever - and would likely avoid each other at parties. But when they're at the bar, they make attempts to get along and include each other in conversation.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

williamson

  • Posts: 240
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2014, 10:03:36 AM »
Sort of like Lilith and Cliff Claven at the same bar in Cheers. Two people who would otherwise never EVER be seen in the same place at the same time, on purpose, ever - and would likely avoid each other at parties. But when they're at the bar, they make attempts to get along and include each other in conversation.

It's a little known fact that this is the first ever reference to Cheers on the GDB. If you pull off a Night Court reference, you will be my GDB hero.
"Let sleeping characters sleep naked." -Azroen

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 880
Re: Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2014, 10:18:37 AM »
Just touching base on a couple of points because this sub-conversation is starting to loose its contributing value, I believe.

* It wasn't one or two people that I observed this with. It was several different instances with different PCs involved.

* I never said that I didn't expect the game to be different after two years. If you are going to imply that I meant something, use an actual quote or at least contribute instead just trolling, Fujikoma. Though I guess since I just responded to it, you get +10 trolling exp?

* Maybe you didn't -really- break out in sores but I bet -you're character- stubbed their toe (Ruk?), tripped (Whiran), had a nightmare (Drov), lost a bet (whiran), cut their finger sharpening a blade and bled a lot (Vivadu), or maybe lost a sparring match (Elkros or Krathi?). Unless, of course, their life is perfect without these little nuances. Most people are taught that everything that goes wrong is either because of (if you are human) elves or magickers.

No, I don't expect things to be the same. That was taken out of context. Evolution is a good thing though we always have fond memories of things passed. I was merely stating an observation I had based on numerous instances over the last month as related to the original post in an attempt to contribute by giving an "outside" point of view. Sometimes when you are around something all the time, you can't tell that those little differences build up to be something quite different.

I've been around for a long time, even with with a couple short breaks. I've seen and done a lot. I'm not jumping the gun and throwing accusations or trying to bash anyone. I am trying to be productive and helpful, I hope that some people took it as such even if they don't agree.


If a shadowy one looks at you with a drink in their hands, your neighbor's mother's cousin will disappear this very evening.
When shadows creep on you suddenly, it surely must be a magicker. Kiss the back of your hands and pray to the Highlord to ward it off.
Kiss the ground for the Highlord before bed, and He will protect you from magickers robbing your breath.
If you see a Krathi in the throes of their magicks, you will suffer burning sensations for weeks.
If flames flare when a Krathi laughs, you will get boils on your bottom for three days.
If a Whiran smiles at you, you must go gamble this very day, or else you'll have ill fortune for a month.
If you see an even number of feathers and feel Whira in the same day, you will suffer itchy feet for two weeks.
If you hear a Whira sneeze, you will suffer the wanderlust for a month.
Five feathers woven into a cross will ward off minor Whiran ailments.
When the winds rages and stones flies, a whiran and a rukkian are battling somewhere; you must seek shelter or suffer in their stead.
Be warned, if you cross an angry Rukkian, your home might be swallowed up into the ground.
If the walls of your home shake and tremble, you must feed the earthen ground quickly, lest it collapse on you.
If a Vivaduan wishes you a good day, you will bear children quickly and easily. (both a blessing and a curse)
When a Vivaduan sings, everyone who can hear it will become thirsty within the hour.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra