Author Topic: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)  (Read 9459 times)

Heade

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Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« on: December 31, 2013, 06:51:09 PM »
Ok, so there has been extensive discussion about defining rape(due to in-game rules), and I have previously taken a stance that if you get drunk and sleep with someone in RL, then regret it later, you're still accountable for your own choices made while under the influence. In response to this stance, I have been called insensitive. I'd like to open up the floor for RL discussion of this issue. To illustrate my personal opinion, I will give an example of what I'm talking about:

Girl goes out and parties. She get's drunk and has sex with guy. Guy met girl at party, was attracted to her, thought she was cool and fun, and she seemed into him. They had consensual sex that it seemed they both enjoyed.

The next day, Girl regrets sleeping with Guy. Doesn't think she would have done it if she wasn't drunk, and thereby deems this situation rape. She reports it as such, and bleeding hearts agree with her and send Guy to prison as a sexual predator, forever changing his life. When eventually Guy gets out of jail, for the rest of his life, any neighborhood he moves into, he has to notify his neighbors that he's a registered sex offender. He has to list it on job applications, school applications, and his registration is a matter of public record for anyone to see with a simple search. Meanwhile, Girl's only downside is that she has to live with knowing that she slept with someone she normally wouldn't have while she was drunk, a state that she herself chose to pursue by drinking.

Who is the victim here?


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I want to be clear; I am not insensitive. I just think that while people are on their holy crusade to be sensitive to victims of sexual misconduct, they often lose sight of the bigger picture, and don't think about all the other victims in this world. In the above described situation, I don't think that it's fair to have the guy be responsible for the girl's decisions just because she's drunk. What if he's drunk too? If you engage in conduct that impairs your ability to make decisions, I believe that you are, by default, agreeing to live with the decisions you make while so impaired. It's about taking responsibility and being accountable for your own decisions. Seeing someone's entire life ruined because someone else made a decision they regretted later, then called it rape, is a tragedy .

It is a completely different story if you are drugged or otherwise unwillingly made impaired, and that is not what this thread is about. Please keep any responses on topic.
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lordcooper

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 07:04:46 PM »
While I agree with what you're saying, did we really need yet another rape thread?
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Barzalene

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 07:08:06 PM »
Upon reflection, I'll just agree with LC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 07:10:12 PM by Barzalene »
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Barzalene

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 07:09:07 PM »
And again agreeing with LC.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Barzalene

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 07:09:49 PM »
And still agreeing.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

MeTekillot

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 07:16:44 PM »
Don't get girls drunk to fuck them

Don't fuck already-drunk girls

Same for fucking drunk guys
My thoughts.

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manipura

  • Posts: 1541
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2013, 07:21:39 PM »
 :-\

I'm not sure I want to get into wherever this discussion leads... However, I'm fairly certain that from a technical/legal standpoint, consent is considered invalid if it was given while the person was under duress or otherwise in a position to not fully be cognizant of their decisions.  The last part would apply to consent being given by someone too young to understand the repercussions, someone who is mentally disabled, and yes, someone who is under the influence of a substance.

When I was in college I remember there were posters all over the place with helpful reminders like "When your partner is drunk, you should say no, even if they say yes" and that sort of thing.  The message being, if the person you're trying to get with is drunk/high/whatever, do the right thing and don't get in bed with them, especially if you're not in the same state as them and you recognize that their decisions are possibly not being made with a clear head.

In your example, the guy should not have accepted the girl's consent, realizing that she was drunk and was possibly not in a frame of mind to be making those decisions.  It's not the idea of a typical sexual assault that most people have, but legally it would likely be considered sexual assault.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7997
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2013, 07:27:01 PM »
:-\

I'm not sure I want to get into wherever this discussion leads... However, I'm fairly certain that from a technical/legal standpoint, consent is considered invalid if it was given while the person was under duress or otherwise in a position to not fully be cognizant of their decisions.  The last part would apply to consent being given by someone too young to understand the repercussions, someone who is mentally disabled, and yes, someone who is under the influence of a substance.

When I was in college I remember there were posters all over the place with helpful reminders like "When your partner is drunk, you should say no, even if they say yes" and that sort of thing.  The message being, if the person you're trying to get with is drunk/high/whatever, do the right thing and don't get in bed with them, especially if you're not in the same state as them and you recognize that their decisions are possibly not being made with a clear head.

In your example, the guy should not have accepted the girl's consent, realizing that she was drunk and was possibly not in a frame of mind to be making those decisions.  It's not the idea of a typical sexual assault that most people have, but legally it would likely be considered sexual assault.

If BOTH parties are drunk, which one of them was raped? Why is it the drunken man's responsibility to avoid sex with a drunken woman, but not a drunken woman's responsibility to avoid sex with a drunken man?

If you're at a party and everyone's drinking, then oh well - you shouldn't have gone to a party and gotten drunk. Neither of you.
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Heade

  • Posts: 769
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2013, 07:29:22 PM »
If BOTH parties are drunk, which one of them was raped? Why is it the drunken man's responsibility to avoid sex with a drunken woman, but not a drunken woman's responsibility to avoid sex with a drunken man?

This.
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Barzalene

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 07:35:20 PM »
That may be true. And false accusations are reprehensible. But the full body of Heade's posts seem to have a very anti-female agenda. If he said the sky was blue at this point I'd feel obliged to disagree with him on principal. I think he should be moderated. I think he is at best a troll. And I think we should not indulge him.

I know, when everyone in the game had a penis and you could all be as misogynistic as you chose things were far far better. Oh well.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

manipura

  • Posts: 1541
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2013, 07:36:50 PM »
Actually I didn't say anything about both people being drunk and the example given didn't imply that the guy was drunk.

I suppose if they were both drunk and the girl claimed the next day that she was raped, the guy could come back with the same claim.  
Though I'm not sure any attorney would want to touch -that- case.  :)

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7997
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2013, 07:42:06 PM »
Actually I didn't say anything about both people being drunk and the example given didn't imply that the guy was drunk.

I suppose if they were both drunk and the girl claimed the next day that she was raped, the guy could come back with the same claim.  
Though I'm not sure any attorney would want to touch -that- case.  :)

Someone is making the point that if someone is drunk, then they should not be held responsible for their actions because they were drunk. And the point they're making, is to relieve the woman of responsibility - saying that she can't give consent, because she's drunk. And since drunk people's consent doesn't count, therefore, rape.

My point - is that if the man was drunk - if this was a party situation where everyone was having fun, enjoying the bar, the drinks, the music, whatever...and two of those people have sex - and if "drunk = consent doesn't count" - then this means neither of them gave consent, and they raped each other. This - is called a paradox. It is a logical impossibility. Therefore - "drunk = consent doesn't count" is false.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Harmless

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2013, 07:50:09 PM »
I don't think it's fair to say Heade is anti-female, but it might be fair to say he is pro-male based on his example. Either way, I'm not interested in this topic. I'm here to talk about mudsex because this is a forum about a MUD, and MUD drugs are not real drugs. Until Morgenes finds a way to get me high or drunk by playing Arma, this is quite an offshoot from all the other discussions that were going on.
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Lizzie

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 07:51:46 PM »
I don't think it's fair to say Heade is anti-female, but it might be fair to say he is pro-male based on his example. Either way, I'm not interested in this topic. I'm here to talk about mudsex because this is a forum about a MUD, and MUD drugs are not real drugs. Until Morgenes finds a way to get me high or drunk by playing Arma, this is quite an offshoot from all the other discussions that were going on.

Well obviously you're interested in the topic, or you wouldn't have responded to it.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

MeTekillot

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 07:52:29 PM »
If both people are drunk, nobody is responsible, just like nobody is committing statutory if they're both under 18
My thoughts.

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FreeRangeVestric

  • Posts: 854
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2013, 07:53:05 PM »
Until Morgenes finds a way to get me high or drunk by playing Arma...

Careful, I'd never leave the house!!

Jokes aside, I'm with you. Not touching this one.

You sure a cheery bunch. Happy New Year's, everyone!

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7997
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2013, 07:54:24 PM »
If both people are drunk, nobody is responsible, just like nobody is committing statutory if they're both under 18

That seems pretty reasonable to me. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. But I wish it did.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Ourla

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 08:00:31 PM »
I feel so strongly about this issue that I'm not going to feed into the argument.  I can't believe some of us are so obsessed with this.
The secret to great RP is having the balls to be weird and the brains to make it eloquent.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2797
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 08:08:03 PM »
I don't think it's fair to say Heade is anti-female, but it might be fair to say he is pro-male based on his example. Either way, I'm not interested in this topic. I'm here to talk about mudsex because this is a forum about a MUD, and MUD drugs are not real drugs. Until Morgenes finds a way to get me high or drunk by playing Arma, this is quite an offshoot from all the other discussions that were going on.

Well obviously you're interested in the topic, or you wouldn't have responded to it.


I am interested in a related topic, not this one. I wanted to talk more about what I posted about on page 18 in the main shitstorm thread. Heade made a new thread, but he went with what he wanted to talk about, and I just wanted to let him and everyone know that thanks, but no thanks, this is not my issue of concern.

But you're right, I'm posting in here because , obviously.  ::)
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Heade

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2013, 08:15:13 PM »
That may be true. And false accusations are reprehensible. But the full body of Heade's posts seem to have a very anti-female agenda.

It's not anti-female at all. You can switch every instance of Guy with Girl, and He with She, and vice versa, and my argument remains the same. People are responsible for their own actions. Anything else, regardless of the circumstances, is simply deflecting blame.

I'm not attempting to troll at all. I'm far too serious of a guy to effectively troll. I'm attempting to point out a double-standard that exists, and that people who feed into that double standard are resistant to hearing about. I attempted to convey this message in as clear a manner as I could, while attempting to ensure that I didn't inadvertently offend any individual parties. I do apologize if I've failed in doing that for you, and I thank you for any future productive contribution you may have to this thread.


To be even more clear, I think it is more socially responsible to make having sex while under the influence of alcohol illegal than to allow such a situation to be construed as rape. Allowing such a situation to be construed as rape requires every one of us to be able to recognize at what point someone's judgement is impaired by drugs/alcohol that many of us may not even know the other person is under the influence of. We are not a nation of psychologist's, doctors, and social workers trained to know when that point is, or to be able to recognize when other people's judgement is impaired. Allowing people to be potentially punished a la the destruction of their life for not recognizing that is, simply put, criminal.

The only logical solution, then, is for people to be held accountable for their own actions. Control how much you drink. Don't take drugs you can't handle. Don't knowingly allow yourself to compromise your judgement by overindulging in these things. And if you do, don't deflect blame, but take responsibility for the decisions you made, from beginning to end.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 08:27:42 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Desertman

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2013, 08:24:29 PM »
If both people are drunk, nobody is responsible, just like nobody is committing statutory if they're both under 18

That seems pretty reasonable to me. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. But I wish it did.


And that is reality.

/thread
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manonfire

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 09:02:06 PM »



janeshephard

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Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 09:28:23 PM »
It's not really consensual if she's drunk. If you don't know the girl don't sleep with her when she's under the influence.

Think that solves it :)
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


Heade

  • Posts: 769
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 09:38:03 PM »
It's not really consensual if she's drunk. If you don't know the girl don't sleep with her when she's under the influence.

Think that solves it :)


What if she's not drunk enough for you to know she's drunk, or even been drinking? What if she isn't a she at all, but is a he. What if both parties are drunk? What if what you said doesn't solve it at all?
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

26 dollars

  • Posts: 306
Re: Who is the victim? (Controversial thread - Fair Warning)
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2013, 09:39:08 PM »
It's not really consensual if she's drunk. If you don't know the girl don't sleep with her when she's under the influence.

Or just handle it responsibly. I have a rule of not sleeping with any girl who's drunker than me, but I've been in a situation more than once where the female is the sexual aggressor, and they're pretty damned forward about what they want.  Shit happens.

The example in the OP does happen, unfortunately, but I'm inclined to believe it's far less frequent than cases of real sexual assault.

Those rape threads felt awful creepy during Christmas, but somehow this thread seems appropriate for tonight.  You folks be safe on New Year's!
“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what [people] fear most.”  --  Raskolnikov, Crime and Punishment