Author Topic: Allanaki City Elves  (Read 48670 times)

Blur

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2013, 12:38:30 AM »
Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

In their current form I think c-elves should be karma restricted. A newbie making trying them out for their first, second or even third character is probably not going to be an enjoyable experience. You really need to know what you are getting into when making a c-elf.  In their current form I would make them 1 karma or if you give them the ability to run like d-elves three karma.

Timetwister

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2013, 12:38:53 AM »
Quote
The stigma against elves and your inability to travel easily outside the city means you're gonna have to make your own fun.

I'm kind of perturbed by this statement. The game is a collaborative effort of roleplaying. I want to interact with others and travel is a big part of that. I guess my ultimate question is why is it two separate races and why are city elves hamstrung so badly? If they were a karma 1 like d-elf would that help them get the elf-running state thing?

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2013, 12:43:23 AM »
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2013, 12:45:26 AM »
If city elves had a karma requirement, I think they would be even rarer than they are now.

I don't think they will ever get the ability to run like desert elves, or you'd suddenly see a hundred tribe less independent city elves raiding and pillaging the wastes, defeating the purpose of forcing all delf players into two clans.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2013, 12:46:38 AM »
Yeh, stats isn't the answer. Elves need to be more clearly defined, and to be honest, the 'stealing' thing really needs to become ... something else. Maybe like Quirk suggested, an aspiration. It can't be part of everyday life for 130k elves. They really would all be dead by now.

Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Timetwister

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2013, 12:47:04 AM »
Quote
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I think that would make them far more playable. I really have no reason to ever play an c-elf ever again because of the experience I had with my few that I have had. It was just a terrible playability issue for me. I don't mind getting in-character but I totally enjoyed my d-elves FAR more than my c-elves because they could actually interact with people and they just felt.. I dunno.. more -elvish- to me than c-elves C-elves to me feel like humans with 'elf' in the sdesc.. maybe that sounds wrong but that is just my experience with them.

Timetwister

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2013, 12:51:17 AM »
Quote
Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.

I kind of disagree here. Elves are scum. The word honor doesn't exist in their language. They should be wandering, thieving bastards that they are. The problem is city-elves can't wander, they can never leave the cities safely unless they are extremely long lived and that to me goes against what they are at their core. They are one race but for some unexplainable reason ones that live in the desert run better than ones living in the cities. I'm reminded of Kenyans really.. running is ingrained into their culture.. just because some live and train in the city doesn't mean they won't win that marathon over ones that live in more rural areas. I guess not the best analogy I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are with c-elves.

Blur

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2013, 12:52:05 AM »
If they were a karma 1 like d-elf would that help them get the elf-running state thing?

If they got the ability to run like their d-elf cousins they would need to be bumped to at least three karma right up there with half-giants. Desert elves are powerful especially as rangers but they are also heavily restricted to the Pah and luirs mostly. If a group of soh was allowed wander around the known, mages would probably go extinct. :P

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2013, 12:56:43 AM »
Quote
Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.

I kind of disagree here. Elves are scum. The word honor doesn't exist in their language. They should be wandering, thieving bastards that they are. The problem is city-elves can't wander, they can never leave the cities safely unless they are extremely long lived and that to me goes against what they are at their core. They are one race but for some unexplainable reason ones that live in the desert run better than ones living in the cities. I'm reminded of Kenyans really.. running is ingrained into their culture.. just because some live and train in the city doesn't mean they won't win that marathon over ones that live in more rural areas. I guess not the best analogy I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are with c-elves.

I get the sense that you want city elves to be able to function as desert elf-lite outside the city, which I think is redundant and doesn't serve to address the real issue.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Blur

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2013, 12:58:45 AM »
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2013, 12:59:32 AM »
I keep getting the feeling that you guys keep trying to "lone wolf" that shit with your city elves.

Group up. Do cool shit. A trio or a even a pair of moderately-skilled city elves with smart players won't have too much trouble "wandering" from city to city and proceeding to do cool shit elsewhere. Pay/befriend a human to act as a "face" for doing business. Be creative.

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2013, 01:04:29 AM »
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.

But... are you reading the thread? There is obviously an interest in changing them. Giving city-elves a karma requirement is a bandaid solution that does not address the problem, it just means that less people will have access to them.

I keep getting the feeling that you guys keep trying to "lone wolf" that shit with your city elves.

Group up. Do cool shit. A trio or a even a pair of moderately-skilled city elves with smart players won't have too much trouble "wandering" from city to city and proceeding to do cool shit elsewhere. Pay/befriend a human to act as a "face" for doing business. Be creative.

I don't think anybody is saying you can't play an indie city elf. Outside of Tuluk, there is a distinct lack of engaging and viable clan options for city elves, a race that relies very heavily on tribal interaction and culture according to the documentation.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2013, 01:14:18 AM »
Y'know, I've never seen a city elf sergeant in the Byn....? I would imagine that could be a very engaging and viable role to play, but it almost seems like every c-elf bounces after their year is up.

Same goes for Kurac. I seem to remember a role call for a Kuraci sergeant, and elf was an avaliable race for the role. I have a feeling that there were very few, if any, elven responses to that call.

I mean, yeah. Two whole clans outside of Tuluk, that's not very much-- but what do you expect? There seems to be hardly any interest for elves in what's already available, unless I've just -really- not been paying attention.

Blur

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2013, 01:14:23 AM »
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.

But... are you reading the thread? There is obviously an interest in changing them. Giving city-elves a karma requirement is a bandaid solution that does not address the problem, it just means that less people will have access to them.


Players want to change them however it feels like staff want to keep them as they are currently. *shrug*

I agree that karma restricting them is a bandaid solution that doesn't solve any of their problems but it is better then no solution at all. At the very least newbies will be protected even if it means they become more rare.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:16:13 AM by Blur »

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2013, 01:23:13 AM »
Y'know, I've never seen a city elf sergeant in the Byn....? I would imagine that could be a very engaging and viable role to play, but it almost seems like every c-elf bounces after their year is up.

Same goes for Kurac. I seem to remember a role call for a Kuraci sergeant, and elf was an avaliable race for the role. I have a feeling that there were very few, if any, elven responses to that call.

I mean, yeah. Two whole clans outside of Tuluk, that's not very much-- but what do you expect? There seems to be hardly any interest for elves in what's already available, unless I've just -really- not been paying attention.

Elves generally bounce after a year in the Byn because they have pretty much zero ability to go on contracts safely. Same with Elves in Kurac.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2013, 01:25:49 AM »
What is an elven sergeant to fear when he's got half a dozen trained meat-shields on beetles to protect him on an order?

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2013, 01:31:57 AM »
What is an elven sergeant to fear when he's got half a dozen trained meat-shields on beetles to protect him on an order?

How does the elf survive being a Runner/recruit that needs to go outside? How does the Elf ever go from Mercenary/Trooper to Sergeant, while being nearly useless, and a burden on everyone he is around?

Who would ever hire that elf over the much more capable human?

I'm not saying it is impossible to do. I think I heard about it happening 1 or 2 times in the entirety of this games lifespan. I'm just saying that isn't a realistic selection of opportunities for a player wanting to enjoy an elf.


More importantly how do human underlings EVER respect that useless elf they have to wait every 5 rooms of movement for.

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2013, 01:32:28 AM »
His half dozen trained meat-shields abandoning him in his tent while he's resting and a mekillot wanders in.

But it's okay, because we know the elf never made sergeant since he never got taken on contracts in the first place.


Also please don't use the fact that an elf sergeant would have help from underlings as an excuse for the state elves are in.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2013, 02:01:20 AM »
Go easy on me, I'm just throwing out observations and suggestions.


Narf

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2013, 02:09:14 AM »
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

There is, actually. We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

I suppose technically your elf could start a tribe, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a PC presence in the city elf population to warrant this ever really coming about. It looks like a catch 22, at times -- players imagine a world where city elves are a more playable race, but the niche that elves fit via documentation doesn't allow for most of that.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

For me, changing city elves to make them more playable has always been a very high priority. This is not so much because I really want to play a city elf (although it'd be nice), but rather because I think they add tremendously to the atmosphere.

In fact, I think city elves have the greatest potential to add atompshere to the two cities of any of the demi-human races.

But they can only do this if they represent significant enough numbers. Having one or two tribeless elves running around Alanak doesn't really do anything for the players at large. But if you could actually get a sample of PCs that represented anything close to their virtual population it would be awesome.

Picture walking into the Gaj as a character and having a table of elves, all talking amongst themselves take a break from their conversation to size you up.

Picture walking throught he market and three PC elves go running by.

Imagine walking by one of the many alleys in the commoners quarter and glancing down one to see a large group of elves skulking around, talking in their weird language about Tek knows what.


There's a feeling that you get from seeing this as an outsider that's far more immersive than anything that dwarves and giants and even humans can really offer, and it's for that reason that I think city elves deserve attention.

The goal for me is not just to fix a race so that a few people can play it and have fun with it (although that's a good secondary goal), the goal is to fix the race so that everyone in the game will have the experience of interacting with a group of racially separated, xenophobic, tight-knit, and above all numerically significant subset of Alanaki (and Tuluki) culture.


Narf

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2013, 02:12:43 AM »
Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

In their current form I think c-elves should be karma restricted. A newbie making trying them out for their first, second or even third character is probably not going to be an enjoyable experience. You really need to know what you are getting into when making a c-elf.  In their current form I would make them 1 karma or if you give them the ability to run like d-elves three karma.

I understand this thought process, and for what you say it would probably help. It would keep new players from playing a race that's very difficult and doesn't have a lot of avenues open to it. But in the grand scheme of things making this a karma restricted race is going to make the problem with elves a lot worse because you're going to reduce their population even further.

I think the game really needs more elves, not less.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2013, 02:18:56 AM »
Is there anything "broken" about elves aside from their inability to get from City A to City B without needing to rest and the lack of tribes/elven groups that are apparently impossible to form IG currently?

Narf

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2013, 02:22:57 AM »
Is there anything "broken" about elves aside from their inability to get from City A to City B without needing to rest and the lack of tribes/elven groups that are apparently impossible to form IG currently?

I'd actually argue that's not their problem. If you're playing them according to the documentation, they shouldn't be travelling much.

But if you're playing them according to their documenation, you have an enormous support structure to both draw from and contribute to.

This is what they're really missing. The other stuff is just a distraction.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2013, 02:45:19 AM »
Quote from: Docs
While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe.

It seems to me that if there were simply more people playing elves, stuff like this could happen. :/

Could you show where you got "enormous support structure" from? I couldn't find it in the main "Celf RP" helpfile. >_>

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2013, 02:51:52 AM »
I think one of the best thins that can be done with new Jaxa documents is make it easier for people to play IN the clan. Labyrinth clans are notoriously difficult to join, and for northern elves, joining the Akai is a much easier affair.

Also, it might have been possible in the past, but it would be neat if players could apply for characters in the tribe via role application request similar to how coded human tribes function.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.