Author Topic: Allanaki City Elves  (Read 37142 times)

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2013, 06:08:08 PM »
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.

The Labyrinth is another one of those things that is treated different ingame from how the docs suggest it would function in an actual city ("Most of the business in Allanak takes place here etc etc")

What I would really like to see with the Jaxa document revamp are a few things.
1. It shouldn't be so obscenely hard to actually join. Wishing up and asking an NPC was as likely to get you stabbed to death as it was clanned, and under actual players, only one or two were actually clanned at any given time, meaning all the privelages of being in a clan or tribe were really only valid when your friends were online.

2. Relax the restriction against southsiders (this should be true for the Guild as well).  I know it is possible for southern elves to join the Jaxa and in the past they've even managed to acquire pseudo-leadership roles but the current situation does not promote a lot of interaction beyond the occasional southerner who wants someone killed and can't get help from the Guild.  I think it would be really cool to allow for the Jaxa to have this network of southern elves with seemingly innocent day jobs that they can call upon when needed.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.

I disagree with this entirely. Just because 'rinthers live outside of the law doesn't mean that elves have to. Just because Elves are known to be shysters doesn't mean they have to be herded into the unlawful portion of the city. I don't agree that every City Elf worth their weight would be in 'rinth. That doesn't make much sense.

Also, the Jaxa Pah isn't open, apparently. So even if the 'rinth was the only place for tribal city elves you can't even do that there.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2013, 06:21:45 PM »
Yeah... There's a big difference between "a seedy part of Allanak" and "The Labyrinth".

It's pretty much the difference between, "I'm poor :(" and "Oh hey. You have food. Give me that or I will stab you a lot."

>em grumbles about all these damn southsiders in his alleys and these damn kids wearing silk because they maxxed their stealth skills
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 06:25:00 PM by Qzzrbl »
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Barsook

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2013, 06:25:13 PM »
An easy, light fix to the low Allanaki elven population that I would love to see would be a socially accepted increase in the kind of jobs elves could have. I once stored an elf because I couldn't find another job besides grebbing that they'd keep their neck doing, and also interested me. Nyr replied to me, There's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb. However, the playerbase itself has limited the kind of jobs elves can have. They're left with crafting (which is narrowed further still by a cultural inability to hunt and a social inability to greb), Kurac, being what amounts to a permanent runner in the Byn who is unable to go on contracts (I can't imagine a worse fate personally), bardic/performance type of things which not everyone has the OOC creativity to do, and crime.
+1

Quirk

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 06:51:46 PM »
I guess the kind of thing I'm hoping for from a Southside elven clan, the more I think about it, is kind of a hopped up version of an organised crime syndicate which makes most of its money through control over what's basically legal business. Construction tends to attract a lot of this in reality, though I think in Zalanthas that's likely to be work for the slaves.

My picture of a large Southside city elven clan: whatever the clan gig is, everyone knows they're bent as hell - if they're bidding on big contracts, the deal you strike with them isn't going to be the deal you get. If they're running some service, there's huge suspicion as to its underlying quality. But the deal you get is mostly good enough that that bit of the economy continues to function, and given the massive headache in trying to root them out and put someone else in charge, it turns out it's just easier for the templarate to work with them and occasionally make an example of one of them when they get so crooked things are threatening to spiral into dysfunction. You don't really want to cross them if you're a small player, but it's in the clan's interests to play mostly nicely with the actually powerful, who get to talk a lot of shit to and about them because they hold the whip hand.

I think if we had a clan like that, we'd answer a lot of questions along the lines of "Why are elves tolerated in the city?" And I think the difference between a tribe and a House would make for pretty interesting play along the lines I've mentioned already, and open up potential for new interactions.

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BleakOne

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2013, 07:35:43 PM »
I'm all for the idea of elves getting either a few tribe clans in Allanak, or a syndicate of smaller tribes who work with each other in the Southside. We need more elves in Allanak.
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Barsook

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2013, 07:39:12 PM »
I think I know my next PC concept will be...

Italis

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2013, 10:23:13 PM »
Elves are tolerated in Allanak for the same reason rats and cockroaches are - getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort. That's pretty much the only reason.

People don't hire elves for gainful employment because they're known to be a bunch of shiftless, thieving bastards. And elves rarely seek gainful employment themselves because stealing shit from the slow-ass roundears is way easier.

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2013, 10:32:10 PM »
See you all again in a few years.


Allanak: We employ 'gickers, but fuck the elves man.

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2013, 10:33:33 PM »
See you all again in a few years.


Allanak: We employ 'gickers, but fuck the elves man.

I feel your frustration.

But hey, you can't send elves into the Mantis Valley to instagib that raider who stole your war beetle while you were spam-salting.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2013, 10:37:32 PM »
To be honest I'm not that frustrated. I don't entirely mind the only City-elf tribe being in the 'rinth. I just wish I could play in it, which will probably just require a little bit of patience.

Italis

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2013, 10:53:00 PM »
Hey, nobody said elves were supposed to be easy.

'Cause they're not.

In a city as universally corrupt, oppressed and riddled with crime as Allanak, there's plenty of niches for elves to fit themselves into. They're just never going to be socially acceptable when they do it.

Kronibas

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM »
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.
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Blur

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 01:57:28 AM »
Hey, nobody said elves were supposed to be easy.

'Cause they're not.

In a city as universally corrupt, oppressed and riddled with crime as Allanak, there's plenty of niches for elves to fit themselves into. They're just never going to be socially acceptable when they do it.

It sounds like you are describing half-elves and magickers though. Elves are socially accepted by their own kind and dealing with them should be part of daily life for anyone who lives in the city. Their population is only second to humans in cities after all. I mean half-elves are not be easy to play at all, and they are generally be rejected by elves and humans alike however, they are still very fun to play and many people enjoy playing them.

I feel like it is not so much that elves aren't easy to play but rather that the disadvantages, restrictions and lack of interaction/clans make them not fun to play. In comparison at least to almost ever other available race.

Oh well, what do I know. Anyways I do have one elven concept that might be interesting to play. Maybe I'll try it someday.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:58:48 AM by Blur »

solera

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 03:24:54 AM »
 
Quote
getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort.

Just cart criminals off to jail in paddy wagons. Then Necks would  either riot or cut their own throats.

Unless of course elves are entrenched in the real Nak economy.

HavokBlue

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 03:33:17 AM »
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.

If I'm not mistaken, the Sandas still exist as one of the three Jaxa families.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Kronibas

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 04:42:18 AM »
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.

If I'm not mistaken, the Sandas still exist as one of the three Jaxa families.

You're right, and it's right there in the help files, too.  I thought the Sandas were just like the down and dirty wing of the HK for a long time since they existed/worked together.  I can't remember if Dust was a HK or Sandas elf, but he was around for a long time.
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Vox

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 07:40:35 AM »
Seeing as I played Dust I'll pipe up.. I was the only active Haruch Kemad PC for a long time and possibly the last, which is sad news because that clan was awesome, if a bit lonely.
Additionally they were super secretive so their fate will probably never be known.

As far as the general issue of elves go, I totally agree that they are a -very- difficult race to play but, 'it's hard out there for a pimp.' I wish more people would roll up elf PC's
but I wouldn't go so far as to make life any easier for them. You get a solid group of elven roleplayers working together you'll find soon enough just how crazy fun
being an elf in Allanak is and you'll actually be glad you're universally despised. It gives you SO much freedom and individuality while at the same time creating awesome
moments of constant conflict. Finding ways to annoy the nobility AND keep my head was a game I often enjoyed playing when I was an elf.

If you prefer to sit around being friends with everyone in the Gaj and going salting with your happy band, playing a longneck probably isn't for you. (unless you plan on stabbing them all or stealing their shit) :)

Kronibas

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 07:54:02 AM »
Nice, Vox.  Thanks for dropping in.

And it is, for sure, hard out there for a pimp

 8)
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Yasbusta

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2013, 08:01:16 AM »
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.
Sure insulting an elf as a human might garnish their tribe irk, but who cares, why might you ask.
Well any elf tries anything with a human and every other human in the area will be standing right
next to that human even if he deserves a beating. Besides who wants to miss a chance to break an elf's bones a little.


An Akai like tribe in Alanak, hell no. I mean really hey elfie that's a nice sword, what you made it, damn that's a piece of kank dung.
Some extension of the currently closed tribe in the commons, maybe, it could be doable and work.

Not certain what I would like to see done, but I do really wish there was an open elf clan in Allanak.
Maybe if I had my say, close the guild and open Jaxa. Having both open as they are currently written always seemed foolish to me.
Basically the same group just one is for elves only.

valeria

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2013, 08:03:08 AM »
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I don't think anyone was suggesting having a semi-respectable elf tribe in Allanak proper.  I think it's been suggested to have a tribe in Allanak proper.
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Yasbusta

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2013, 08:06:24 AM »
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I don't think anyone was suggesting having a semi-respectable elf tribe in Allanak proper.  I think it's been suggested to have a tribe in Allanak proper.

Thinking that an Allanak human might be hesitant about insulting an elf is totally a northern thing. That or someone hasn't been reading their docs at all.
But I digress it doesn't matter, all roles increase the fun.

+1 for open elven tribe. Though still not liking in Allanak proper, keep em dirties in the rinth where they belong.

Kronibas

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2013, 08:11:42 AM »
I don't know if every human would stand up to any other human insulting an elf, at least not overtly.  

I think a lot of the elf love in Tuluk has been ICly established, maybe rightfully so, at the risk of defending elf love.


I mean, even if it's an elf... what if that elf had helped a certain human a lot before?  Then you would be messing with that human's elf.  He probably likes the elf more than another mercenary, if for nothing more than the fact that the elf has hooked him up way more than that mercenary ever will/has.  He has a stake in that being, even if he knows it's a scumbag.  Shit, he might even like that elf or give business to that elf to spite a human equivalent that he's had problems with.

I can see humans defending elves in certain circumstances beyond any wild stretch of my imagination, even though I've never been in that position much, ICly. It's circumstantial.


Scenario:  A deadly elf has been a Borsail noble's one-line thodeliv hookup in Allanak for twenty years.  Byn runner #8928387 fucks with Borsail noble's drug dealer, harming him.  Does the noble do anything?  Maybe, especially if the elf has hooked him up in other ways before, too.  Replace "spice" with "tons of mastercraft items" and the principle still applies, kinda.

I think an elf tribe could emerge in Allanak if the elf played their cards right.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 09:29:43 AM by Kronibas »
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Quirk

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2013, 08:32:58 AM »
Elves are tolerated in Allanak for the same reason rats and cockroaches are - getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort. That's pretty much the only reason.

People don't hire elves for gainful employment because they're known to be a bunch of shiftless, thieving bastards. And elves rarely seek gainful employment themselves because stealing shit from the slow-ass roundears is way easier.

Then the real magick of Arm is "what do elves eat?"

Seriously, this argument is a crock, mathematically. I'm going to tear it apart, but please don't take this as a personal attack - the argument is consistent with a certain interpretation of our very bad elven roleplay doc, and is a pretty good demonstration of why it needs a rewrite.

Let's suppose elves actually are all career criminals. 135,000 free elves in Allanak against about 160,000 other free commoners. Some slaves may have things worth stealing, but for the time being I'm going to assume they're largely in squalor. I'm also going to begin with the assumption that the vast majority of elven income is from stealing from average working commoners, but that's a temporary assumption that'll be ditched as I go on.

So, our 135,000 elves need living expenses, and these are to come from the pockets of the 160,000 gainfully employed. The first thing to note is that the gainfully employed have to make enough to feed them as well. This means that they're close to making twice their own living expenses - in terms of our world, all of them are putting by enough to retire in their forties and live to seventy without the miracle of compound interest. From this sweet, incredible prosperity, they're getting reduced to bare subsistence by elven theft. And, somehow, they don't care enough about this to do anything.

Okay. Let's ditch our temporary assumption - clearly commoner pockets can't be remotely capable of paying for this, or even half of this, or even a quarter of this. Commoners would have to be way too prosperous and way too forgiving. But are we then to assume that we can feed 50,000 elves or more on the money they bleed from Salarr or Kadius or Borsail? We rapidly get to a point where the Houses are sustaining more elves from the lost money than they support as actual employees. This is insane.

So, if we want elves to actually be numerous, we need to make them more than one-dimensional cartoon villains. But I've spent most of my time so far in examining how we could keep the spirit of the docs and tie elves back into being a useful portion of the city - let's go the other way, assume they're all totally uncompromising thieving sociopaths and work out what the numbers look like then. Let's assume the average theft nets enough for a week of survival - this is likely to be very much on the high side, and is probably burglary, as if we're talking about pickpocketing pocket change we can ratchet things up by a factor of a hundred easily - and so each career thief is stealing over sixty times a year just to make bare subsistence (for riches, they'd need to be much more effective than that). At 2% of the population we're beginning to see a bit more viability - they're still a serious scourge, on average everyone loses over a week's earnings to them on a yearly basis, but it's plausible that they aren't the biggest worry in people's lives. 2% being career criminals is still insanely high by Western population standards, where we'd be looking at about one tenth of that or less, but let's go with the assumption for now that the Nakki approach to law and order makes crime more rewarding. Some of that 2% will be human, though, and if the 'Rinth's current design is any guide, it would be close to a 50-50 split. So we end up with elves down somewhere at the 1% level, which is below the currently listed population level of half-elves.

If elves genuinely are not so numerous, it's much harder to claim that nothing can be done about them. That defence evaporates. They would get dealt with much as PC elves get dealt with. A handful might cling on in parts of the city the templars don't care about, bleeding a little from commoner pockets, but they'd be few and powerless. And well, we could absolutely go that direction, it makes sense with how elves are currently treated ICly, but there'd be a bunch of retconning required.

Now, this whole piece smacks a little of Superman physics, I admit. But I think we're stretching credibility and believability not to tell a more exciting story, but in order to make our story and world worse. The world as actually built is more interesting than this - it has elven crafters, elven shopkeepers, elves gainfully employed doing useful stuff. There's complexity. By stripping away the complexity, we get something worse. Players know it's worse, and shy away from playing something that's simply a bad deal on every front: in terms of employment, in terms of social interaction, in terms of actually having an interesting character with multiple motivations, humans are simply better. It doesn't have to be this way. There's space for exploring racial tensions, for exploring adherence to the tribe above the law, for exploring the compromises of proud peoples in desperate circumstances. What we currently have is a point where instead of actually exploring prejudice, we're being encouraged to indulge in the "Boo, hiss" which greets pantomime villains.

Frankly, we need someone to step up and do better than the roleplay doc crafted barely after Arm's hack and slash days. That doc is pretty bad at laying out a sustainable blueprint for PC living, let alone VNPC. But casually simplifying it further, taking away the looser interpretations of "theft", is terribly depressing: we should be better at roleplay than we were ten years ago, not worse.



I am God's advocate with the Devil; he, however, is the Spirit of Gravity. How could I be enemy to divine dancing?

Patuk

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Re: Allanaki City Elves
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2013, 09:49:07 AM »
I've never understood the whole idea of 'elves don't do work because they can just steal everything' thing either. Yes, elves are quicker than humans. No, you can't feed an entire goddamn race by mooching off of people very much capable of defending themselves.

To me, the idea of elves being career criminals is something of an ideal they'd like to fulfil, not something many of them actually attain on a lifetime basis. As an analogy, consider modern humans having an ideal of getting rich, or a medieval ideal of piety. Everybody tries it, but getting rich is tough, and so is living without sin at all. The same could be said for elves: certainly, being a career thief would be a life of glory, but then there's the unfortunate problem that elves have stomachs to fill, too.

So what's left, in my eyes, is a race of people where the cleverest/quickest/most desperate of them all would indeed be fully-fledged thieves, with the others getting by in other ways. This does not, however, mean they aren't elves. An elf who can't subsist merely by stealing/conning might become a stoneworker, but that doesn't mean he won't grin and give another elf the thumbs up whilst he brags about having nicked something right from a shopkeeper's counter, nor does it mean that the stoneworker won't be thinking of ways to steal any valuable/well guarded things in whatever place he lives, despite probably never getting to live out his fantasies.

Don't play elves as one-dimensional people who only care about impressive heists, and nothing else. Elves love, fear, hate, and cherish, too. The difference is that among all the emotions people of any other race will feel, elves respect and almost venerate theft. A lazy elf might not steal all that much because he knows he's awful at it and slacks off more than practice his stealing. An envious elf might sabotage another elf's hijinks because he resents them being so much more talented than they. An elf in love with another might impress them by stealing a particularly valuable soup spoon, despite it making an otherwise lousy gift.

What I'm basically saying is that elves are more than walking machines of perpetual theft and larceny. Yes, elves will be thieves more often than humans, but that's because thievery is not something an elf resorts to out of desperation, but because of his striving to do so. But these thieves are but one facet of a race that does not magically lack deadbeats, cripples, hunger and bluntness, so make sure to take this into account before you call elves a single template race outside of IC channels.
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