Author Topic: How do you feel about PC killing?  (Read 44358 times)

Harmless

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #225 on: July 05, 2013, 12:48:15 PM »
For the record, I have never bitched about being PKed on the GDB, except for once, my VERY first post on this GDB over 10 years ago. Haven't done it once since to my knowledge, and I have had a lot of deaths I might have bitched about.

Recently, I made a thread where I was emotional and complaining about certain RP styles, and some people in the thread assumed and posted that it must be because I had just been PKed or died, but neither were true. I can guarantee it wasn't true, but I can't tell you why I was emotional because it was about [redacted.]

Anyway, that being said, I never blame anyone for getting heated up and bitching about being killed here. It's one of those faux pas that just happens on here a lot and I have seen it over a gajillion times by now. It happens so often that, apparently, people will even make the assumption that it's the reason behind X or Y post when it really isn't, showing how frequently it comes up.

Also, for the record, you will have a very hard time earning respect from anybody on the GDB. There are just lots of perma-bad feelings some people have forever, and if they suspect you of being Y or Z guy that ganked them in the past or whatever... then that's it.

Moreover, the amount of "GDB-sleuthing" that goes on is just ridiculous as well, and it often leads to bizarre miscommunications or acts of such rudeness that you can't even imagine how stupid the poster might feel after they did it.

Anyway, I learned my lesson. Edited to rephrase and simplify: I will be very cautious about the perceived tone of my posts if I am quoting someone in it, or responding directly to somebody, to avoid the possibility of hurt feelings. I wouldn't want my own feelings hurt again, and I will try harder not to do it in the future.

/derail

Guess the point of this post was, PK creates bad feelings, and bad feelings lead to bad behavior on the GDB. They're both interlinked, and sadly, I think they're inevitable. I'm just glad the MUD still lives and we find some way to coexist with each other at a basic level.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 12:51:10 PM by Harmless »
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Wastrel

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #226 on: July 05, 2013, 02:17:29 PM »
I actually was in a really bad mood last night. lol. And a little more than intoxicated HAPPY 4TH BITCHES

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but I -have- been ganked by relatively long-lived PCs for, well... No reason at all, really. Got a feeling I wasn't the only one in these instances too.

I've been randomly attacked several times, but I've managed to flee in various ways, thats mainly where my rage was coming from. I just find it absolutely stupid people would do this. Musashi says it doesn't happen, that people aren't random killed, that people aren't randomly attacked, uh, well, they are. Also, Musashi, you dont "grief" on a forum. This is an adult game for adults...however if my language was a bit strong or blunt I apologize. I cross my heart and hope to die my rant had nothing to do with recent IC events.

Kismetic

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #227 on: July 05, 2013, 02:23:06 PM »
Warning: if you haven't seen the Departed, don't watch that clip you're a loser, and should be backstabbed.

ftfy
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musashi

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #228 on: July 05, 2013, 03:16:51 PM »
I've been randomly attacked several times, but I've managed to flee in various ways, thats mainly where my rage was coming from. I just find it absolutely stupid people would do this. Musashi says it doesn't happen, that people aren't random killed, that people aren't randomly attacked, uh, well, they are. Also, Musashi, you dont "grief" on a forum. This is an adult game for adults...however if my language was a bit strong or blunt I apologize. I cross my heart and hope to die my rant had nothing to do with recent IC events.

No. Musashi didn't say that.

Musashi said:

The situation you describe is not the reality of the game world. It might, possibly, rarely occur that someone is just treating the game like a hack and slash MUD to grief other players, but there are tools and guardians (player complaints, and staff) in place to curb that sort of thing when it happens.

And

No one is saying they are sure there had to have been a reason. People are saying that Wastrel has no way of being sure there was no reason.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 03:23:13 PM by musashi »
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Wastrel

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #229 on: July 05, 2013, 03:55:32 PM »
okay dude whatever

Kismetic

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #230 on: July 05, 2013, 03:57:52 PM »
That's how all of musashi's arguments end.  Lol

Sometimes, I will rustle some jimmies just to get musashi going, it's a good show.
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Hitsuchi

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #231 on: July 05, 2013, 04:13:43 PM »
First, Wastrel...I wasn't actually trying to remark on words and all...but whatever, I could've phrased it way better. I get your point, anyway, and I agree with it principally. Heck, get a couple canned emotes if you're planning to kill someone. Paste and Enter, and you've gotten some flavor. Some kind of motivation. And kudos to all assassin targets that don't flee if they couldn't/wouldn't IC, and emote instead.

As for PC killing, I must say I prefer ingame conflict to NPC mobs killing you. As long as there's good reason to, and all that. Act it out, don't chase murderers to the other side of the Known all the time (more "oh, it happened outside the gates and it wasn't my best friend, whatever...just don't get near me" characters) and so on. Forget the exact looks of who was trying to kill you. Murder, corruption, betrayal. Blame someone else (that woman at the bar that's always insulting you). Would-be killers: leave 'em naked in the desert, remind them that next time...give the game some flavor, people. If some drunk thug insults you at the bar...brawl 'em, don't hire an assassin to kill them.

I guess that's my main opinion on PK: if it's appropriate, yes please! (with some emotes on top, I promise I won't spam-flee?). If it's not really...do something else. Don't escalate it so quickly. Sure, their death might be coming, but give them the fight for a while. Bonus points for letting them see it coming and understand why and all that.

ShaLeah

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #232 on: July 05, 2013, 04:25:57 PM »
I promise I won't spam-flee?).

Sometimes that survival instinct kicks in as a player, as a player, and your character ends up doing something it wouldn't, like suddenly forgetting you'd willingly die for this person who's killing you, or that you saw it coming and could have not been there.

At -best- we can -try- to remember to emote when in the heat of the spur of the moment moment (not premeditated) and try not to react like we would if it's an NPC coming from the next room to slaughter you. When the shit goes down though, I've found all planning, all good intentions go right out the door.
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Desertman

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #233 on: July 05, 2013, 04:31:26 PM »
This thread delivers.
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joyofdiscord

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #234 on: July 05, 2013, 04:59:21 PM »
What I'm saying is pretty fucking basic. Dont randomly kill people with arbitrary justifications without giving them some due process and roleplay to go along with their death.

First of all, as others have pointed out, the situation you're talking about is dubious. You claim it hasn't even happened to you, but you're very angry about it.  I've been playing here for a decade or so, plenty of which was spent in lawless regions, and to this day, these so-called random, pointless attacks have been rare to non-existent.

I have been on the delivering end of a fair number of murder scenes due to the kinds of roles I play, and yes, some of those were abrupt lights-off scenarios where the victim had little or no advance warning of what was happening.  Many times that is the right was to play such a scene.    Sometimes I have extended the scene a bit while the victim is unconscious or mortally wounded, but how much better is that, really?  There's only so many ways to emote bleeding out, and extending someone's suffering by spamming them with emotes about ransacking through their stuff or about how you're about to cut their throat could be seen as gloating, adding insult to injury, or giving them false hopes of their PC surviving.  Often victims will "quit die" when mortally wounded because emoting their PC lying half-dead on the ground doesn't appeal to them.

Giving someone a corny "Hello, Mr. Bond"-style death scene while they are conscious may be appropriate roleplay sometimes (particularly if you are in a high power role like a Templar), but often it just isn't.  If you try a scene like this, you can count on your victim waying everyone they know for reinforcements and/or to avenge them, and your PC knows this.  It can easily lead to the death of your PC if they're not careful.  Elaborate death scenes happen sometimes, but it's the very real and perfectly IC danger of a lights-out kind of scenario that makes these scenes special and gives PC lives urgency.

This is a harsh desert world full of murder, corruption, and betrayal (MCB). You don't have a right to due process.  You don't have a right to face your accuser.  PCs who are personally "asking for it" generally get killed quickly. But PCs who aren't asking for it, or who are only indirectly asking for it in ways that are no fault of their own, can meet the same fate.  Here are some ways of indirectly asking for it:

  • Having a rival successfully spread a rumor that your PC is somehow "asking for it."  (Too bad, so sad. This is a wonderfully Zalanthan plotline.)
  • Getting in the way of someone's plans.  (Another great plotline.)
  • Knowing too much.  (Another great plotline.)
  • Working for someone who's "asking for" an underling to get murdered.  (Yet another great plotline. If your PC is shrewd, they may wish to examine the political standing of their potential employer before joining on. For all the GDB noise about "All Zalanthan commoners would beg to join any clan," Zalanthans should know that big business in the Known is potentially bloody business, and they have good reason to try to scrape by on their own if they think that the risks of that kind of life outweigh the risks of affiliating themselves with a clan.)

Zalanthas is about roleplaying, storytelling, drama, and intrigue.  Go watch, say, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Game of Thrones (haven't seen it but I have no doubt the same kind of intrigue is featured there).  All of these are works with very similar MCB-style dramatic themes, that will give example of what makes for compelling plotlines and drama revolving around murder.  Sometimes the victims don't know what's coming, don't really deserve what's happening to them, and died for someone else's selfish benefit.  Oftentimes, making the murder look like a "random" slaying is part of the plot as well.  Yeah, that sucks a little bit more in a MUD where the victim PC has a 1st-person perspective, and doesn't get to omnisciently view all the intrigue and plotting before and after that murder.  But those plotlines are bread and butter of Zalanthas.  They are what makes the game exciting. It's the reason we keep logging on.  

Sometimes a murder is just a punctuation mark in a larger story.  I'm sorry if your PC was the one that died in that story, but honestly, you should be flattered.  Your PC was the unknowing star of the plotline, and will undoubtedly be remembered better than Grebber #226 who died to Scrab #0199843 in the desert.  Make a new PC and try to learn the political game a bit better.  Maybe next time, you'll be the hitman, or the one paying them.  Then, you can do the scene however you want, or try to accomplish all your goals without murder, or whatever you like.  But don't be surprised if the scenario looks totally different on the other side of the knife.

Wastrel

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #235 on: July 05, 2013, 05:41:43 PM »
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.

If you are deadset on killing someone in the most codedly efficient way possible at least copypaste something or have some aliases ready.

Quote
Often victims will "quit die" when mortally wounded because emoting their PC lying half-dead on the ground doesn't appeal to them.

This sounds like BS. The vast majority of players would roleplay out a scene if they were killed by another PC. You dont have to lecture me on the harshness of the world. But lets be frank, there are obvious limitations to the code and at the end of the day this is not a pseudo world simulator but rather a roleplaying mud. I'm not talking about epic assassin plots or backstabs, I'm talking about shitheads you've never met who literally have no reason to kill besides levleing up their backstab or killing because THEY R SCARY KILLER GUYZ immediately attacking you without so much of a scene or emote or ANYTHING. And like I said, my PC didn't get PK'd. I'm just a firebrand.

musashi

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #236 on: July 05, 2013, 08:03:48 PM »
Dude, we get it. You're against this extremely hyperbolic situation that exists prodominantly in your imagination. If you think you see it happening in game by all means file a player complaint because nobody else wants it to happen either. Just don't get too upset that none of us are overly concerned because we've rarely if ever had that experience.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 08:06:52 PM by musashi »
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Gimfalisette

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #237 on: July 05, 2013, 08:38:39 PM »
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.

I really wonder if you're mistaking the actions of NPCs for PCs. There are many places in the gameworld where NPCs will indeed attack your PC with no provocation (or none that you are aware of).

Other than that, I have never seen this happen in game. And it seems like other players haven't either. That's why I'm wondering whether there's some wild misinterpretation of things going on here.
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #238 on: July 05, 2013, 09:18:27 PM »
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.

I really wonder if you're mistaking the actions of NPCs for PCs. There are many places in the gameworld where NPCs will indeed attack your PC with no provocation (or none that you are aware of).

Other than that, I have never seen this happen in game. And it seems like other players haven't either. That's why I'm wondering whether there's some wild misinterpretation of things going on here.

I have, and I've seen it done numerous times.

That said... in many (more than half but not all) of the cases where you don't SEE the RP, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or maybe you even do see (part of) the RP but because you're not seeing the full picture, it still feels cheap.
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Wastrel

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #239 on: July 05, 2013, 10:04:33 PM »
I'm not talking about NPCs lol.

Other people in this thread have said they have had the same experience as me. Anyway. Basically all I'm trying to say is if you are going to kill someone at least give them a fair shake as far as roleplay is concerned and dont be too powergameyish.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 10:06:16 PM by Wastrel »

Desertman

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #240 on: July 05, 2013, 11:36:35 PM »
Dude, we get it. You're against this extremely hyperbolic situation that exists prodominantly in your imagination. If you think you see it happening in game by all means file a player complaint because nobody else wants it to happen either. Just don't get too upset that none of us are overly concerned because we've rarely if ever had that experience.

What Musashi means is, "Dear newer player, we understand your concern because it is a concern we all also have. We might not see this often, but, we can understand how disappointing this would be. Please file a player complaint if/when this happens and feel free to talk to a helper as well if you have any questions. Please keep enjoying this great game along with the rest of us."

Musashi, he means well, he really does.
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Wastrel

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #241 on: July 05, 2013, 11:50:31 PM »
i thought he was saying he was a sperglord

i might have misinterpreted him tho what with being a stupid noobie n' all

:-)

Culinary Critic

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #242 on: July 06, 2013, 12:52:05 AM »
I'm not talking about NPCs lol.

Other people in this thread have said they have had the same experience as me. Anyway. Basically all I'm trying to say is if you are going to kill someone at least give them a fair shake as far as roleplay is concerned and dont be too powergameyish.

I've read a lot of this thread (not all, I admit), and wanted to find just the right comment for my reply.  This one is it.  I both wholeheartedly agree and disagree with this one.

Sometime in the last 12 or so rl months, I had the "walk-in, no-emote-attack, die" thing happen.  I've also (longer ago) had some good murders and semi-natural deaths.  The former suck, the latter add some context to the death of something that was important to me.  But I have no complaints either way.

A while ago I found a thread by accident (and know that if I don't link it, someone out there will search and find it (Thanks!  But it may not even have been on the GDB)).  The important point was that "you play a million other video games and you're always the hero.  In Zalanthas, you're not.  You're nothing.  Expect to die, to die quickly and to die horribly.  Did I mention that you will die often?  So...die, quickly, horribly, often.  Oh!  And pointlessly."  And so on.

Please know, no flaming anyone, no anger.  Just a quote (fine, it's a very weak paraphrase, I get it.  Thanks again for finding that link!) that helped me gain some perspective. 

musashi

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #243 on: July 06, 2013, 02:47:29 AM »
If my reply seemed terse ... consider the tone of the posts I was replying to.

I thought my speech rather mild in comparison.  I wasn't even dropping f-bombs.  ::)
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chrisdcoulombe

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #244 on: July 06, 2013, 06:30:41 AM »
If you are somewhere you should not be the attacks are not random.  If you are somewhere you can be killed, someone might be waiting there to kill you.  Maybe they are collecting teeth for a necklace, heads for a shrine or they (the character) believe murder is required to open a portal to another dimension.  They don't know how strong your character is.   Maybe they think you are someone else because there are a lot of similar sdescs.   
I don't agree that random killing is bad..not if its in character to randomly kill.  Emotes are nice, but if the sniper emotes would you know it?

Tell man (looking down for a moment) Nice shoes;Kill man

Think He has some nice shoes.     Kill man

Or simply Kill man

Tell friend (chuckling) Some scrub was on our terf today and I put a blade in his neck.

If that character has motives to randomly kill then it is only random to the victim and in the sense that it was not premeditated who or when.   

Are you getting attacked in the city,  In your clan hall, or in the tablelands? 

I too would like a scene with my death and I have had some really good ones and I have had deaths where I get shot with arrows and die for no reason to me at least.  I had a death that seemed like bullshit to me, but there was a great scene.  I created the scene and ended up dead from it.  I didn't break character and I pissed off another character enough to kill me right then and there in a spot there is no way they would walk away from it if they attacked and killed me.  I thought that attack was more out of character than alot of the arrow shooting no rp. 
The archers certainly had a reason to kill me whether I agree with that reason or not is irrelevant. 

I have characters that will kill in a heartbeat and characters that would give you his last sid.  Characters that are loyal and characters that will stab you as soon as the chance comes along.  I play the character and do what I think the character would do.  If that is kill you for no reason you can discern than that is what will happen.
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MeTekillot

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #245 on: July 06, 2013, 07:50:17 AM »
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die

musashi

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #246 on: July 06, 2013, 07:52:19 AM »
#sageasfuck  :D

More seriously though, sure no one wants a hack and slash mud, but the game's tag line does include the word murder. It happens. A lot. Embrace it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 07:54:09 AM by musashi »
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hatchets

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #247 on: July 06, 2013, 07:53:23 AM »
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die

I about spit pop all over my screen. Great answer.
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flurry

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #248 on: July 06, 2013, 12:11:10 PM »
I just want to jump in with a practical suggestion. If your character is killed by another PC, especially if you take issue with it, send in a report to your clan (or unclanned) staff, and just lay out the facts as you know them. You may not (and probably don't) know the full story, but you can at least report what you know. Then at least you know someone else is looking at the same set of facts (and more). Hopefully the other PC will also have (or should have) reported on what happened from their side of it too.
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BuNutzCola

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Re: How do you feel about PC killing?
« Reply #249 on: July 06, 2013, 01:50:04 PM »
In every situation save for mass rpts , if I intend to kill a pc, I email. If it came up quicker.than a general report would allow, I email after. Most of the time Ill try NOT to kill, but eh, happens. Sometimes theres time for an emote, sometimes not, usually some tyloed-as-fuck half-emote because I get the pk shakes no matter the situation. An email to clan staff explaining the why is about the only thing I think another.pc is entitled to. (And yku the victim dont get to read those.) That being said,.I wish.I could emote everything for you, but most of the time Im typing out an emote the other player is spamming their code, so meh.
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