A labyrinth of caves...

[evil_erdlu]

apartments in cenyr pls

You know what...? This would actually be awesome.

An apartment-object with the sdesc "a gathering of tents/etc." with a tribal guard and tribal keykeeper. Maybe 4-6 apartments for your random nomad/exiles/travelers/etc.

How about no to this, but yes to more hidden caves, nooks and crannies with quit and save flags, especially that have both and can fit a mount?  Your nomad or friendly neighborhood mul should be using these instead to store their junk.

I wish the subguild thread was still open.  I want a "wilderness builder" subguild with the sole purpose of creating these.

This.. this gave me an idea. Bear with me.

I am not the type to play raiders. I dislike stress. I don't play ungemmed mages for the very same reason. But if I played, I'd be missing one very important thing; a place to live.

Currently, Your best bet's to hole up in one city state and raid only the other city-state, so you have off-handed blessings of one city state to keep you alive. You are forced to live in a city. Because that hidden cave? Even I know it. That one? Yeah it's well-known. The other one? Is that one supposed to be 'hidden'?

Even if the staff made 1000 more hidden caves, in a period of a few years they'll become well-known. So what can we do to make a hidey hole relatively hidden? I'd like a labyrinth for that.

Let's say at the shield wall, there's a cave entrance. In that entrance there are 3 different entrances. And in each, there are three more. And so on, every entrance gets you deeper into the labyrinth. Some entrances lead to the same room. Some entrances lead to dead ends. All are generic and have exactly the same rdescs. And after about ten rooms past, you reach to [QUIT SAVE] rooms, if you're not cut short by a dead end. There are about 300 of those save rooms.

The caves are hard to travel in. It tires mounts/d-elves _fast_. There are aggressive animals scattered in the rooms - not really dangerous but enough to wear down a casual hunter. There's no chance to find food and water, maybe except in the final rooms.

So our raider group finds a room, picking 'first second third third second fourth second first third third' entrances. When a bounty hunter group wants to hunt them down, not knowing where they reside, they get forced to seek every room or track the path the raiders have taken. Tiring.

Interrogation and torture have a meaning now. There's a secret to be held. If one man from the group is caught, there's a great chance that their hiding place is uncovered.

Still the raider group is fairly safe. There's always a random chance for their safe room to be discovered by another renegade group or sorcerer #17, but they have a relatively safe place to reside in in between raids.

It fits the theme of the world I guess. There's supposed to be cave systems in the shield wall, though I didn't have a chance to see them IG at all.

It is possibly easy to build about 3000-6000 rooms that only have entrances (mind you, not NESW, entrances). I don't know how much of server resources loading such an area takes, though, especially with the [SAVE] attribute of the final rooms. And there could be at least two of these systems, maybe even copy-pasted in different parts of the Shield Wall.

Integration to the game would be easy too, 'An earthquake uncovered new cave systems. Enjoy.'.

Thoughts?

Edited to add: Yeah I know, they'll possibly be mapped by several people. But so what? Still guessing the correct save room to find what you seek has nearly the same difficulty level if you're seeking someone inside the system.

Edit again: Damn I forgot the order of the items in a room reverse with every server reset. If it's the same for entrances, they'd have to have some keywords. I doubt we would care. The descriptions of the entrances could be 'first tunnel, second tunnel, third tunnel' for all I care.

[chrisdcoulombe]

There is already a pretty expansive cave system.  There are quit and save rooms in the cave and it comes out....find out ic.  I explored it with another player and saw only one other player in RL months.  If it was even a player and not an imm avatar.   There are actually a few areas where you could go undisturbed for quite some time besides that.

[X-D]

Interesting...and not a bad idea.

But....let us assume a number to make that system workable...say, 200 rooms. Would it not make more sense to simply scatter 200 new rooms around the game world? Maybe not all singly, But this spot is 3 rooms, that is 5, that is 1...etc etc? Having had more then 20 years of play I can say with some certainty that I have seen at least 95% of the game world...and even if it is less, even with that there is a TON of unused space...IE, spots to hide new and nifty caves, coves etc. And no need to retcon anything.

EDIT

In fact, I can think of at least 20 areas I could stick 1-5 room hideouts, using basic hiding of area methods, and be sure that 5 years from now only 50% would be known.

I think that is a worthwhile return.

[evil_erdlu]

There is already a pretty expansive cave system.  There are quit and save rooms in the cave and it comes out....find out ic.  I explored it with another player and saw only one other player in RL months.  If it was even a player and not an imm avatar.   There are actually a few areas where you could go undisturbed for quite some time besides that.

Uh.. didn't know.. As I say, I do not play outdoorsy characters. 

[evil_erdlu]

Interesting...and not a bad idea.

But....let us assume a number to make that system workable...say, 200 rooms. Would it not make more sense to simply scatter 200 new rooms around the game world? Maybe not all singly, But this spot is 3 rooms, that is 5, that is 1...etc etc? Having had more then 20 years of play I can say with some certainty that I have seen at least 95% of the game world...and even if it is less, even with that there is a TON of unused space...IE, spots to hide new and nifty caves, coves etc. And no need to retcon anything.

Problem is; let's assume there's a cave just at the far reaches of salt flats. Templerate finds out you've gone to salt flats. They will check every cave in there and it's going to be easy. Even if there were 100 hidden caves in the area, as long as there's nothing to confuse it's a simple 'hold torch;enter X;leave' to check it. When a single personal belonging is found in one single cave, they've found your hidey hole and you're not safe any more.

In a cave system I described, that'd be much, much harder.

So what I mean is, as long as there's nothing causing confusion and great physical exertion _and_ danger of dehydration and being famished to the equation, such a search is going to take a short amount of time.

One way is to make the cave in a very remote place. But that would make a mundane raiding party's life hard. Another way could be using hidden entrances but not all members of a raiding group will have the ability to 'search'. So, a labyrinth that forces you to rest so often.. Very easy to go in for the raider group knowing where to go; 10 rooms inside tiring terrain and nearly impossible for searchers; hundreds of rooms inside tiring terrain.

Though without knowing anything about the cave system we already have, I can't defend my idea any more than this. 

[evil_erdlu]

I was chatting to the person who started me to Arm. I told him this idea and his response was "But you can't take mounts into the current cave system."

I didn't ask for any more info. Is that the case? Could you explain without giving away too much IC info?

[evil_erdlu]

Thinking more thoroughly about the idea, I give up. It would be illogical. After only the second raiding group/renegade mage/sorcerer holing up in such a cave system, the templerate's response would be to cave in the system to the point of being unusable. It is too much of a stretch to have such a raider-friendly cave system and templerate sitting idle, allowing it. If I were a templar, I'd type 'change objective Making the raiderhole inaccessible' in moments.

[X-D]

Well, I know of the cave systems currently in place...and I am taking that into account...nothing more need be said on that.

Now, the reason why I suggest as I did. Any good raiders are not going to stay in a single spot, if they do, well, they deserve whatever they get.

IF I was playing a templar for instance, and I was to know of a cave system such as you describe. I would pay or otherwise force people to map out all the save/quit rooms for me (of course I would not say that IG, but it is what it would amount to) Then if I heard of some raiders, and for some odd reason I needed to do something about them, I would just begin stationing people in the quit/save rooms...maybe only a few at a time, but since the system is connected, it is simple.

Honestly, and take this from somebody who has played VERY successful raiders, I would avoid such a system...no matter how hard it might be to find the right area, I would consider it a trap.

Now, you spread 40 such hidey holes over the game world...my raider finds even 3, in different parts of the world, now that at least feels like less of a trap, and even if lord templar hard nose knows of all 3, one is in the flats, one is up on a cliff, and another is somewhere in the silt sea...covering them all and trapping my crew is a MUCH harder proposition.

Besides, I think finding new areas unconnected to each other is far more fun for the players.

EDIT
And though I no longer apply for staff on any muds that I play and have long since resigned all of my staff posts.

If Arm staff was to ask for a builder to be on staff long enough to build such areas, I'd jump on it...and if selected, 2 weeks later, they would be ready. (I only ever liked building anyway)

New edit

I have an idea for an easily coded rukkian spell/skill that would actually allow that...in a limited fashion:)

[evil_erdlu]

Agreed.. I had just thought of it before you responded. The templerate would make it unusable too easily. Why need guarding quit rooms? The entrances would be guarded+blocked and raiders no more. It was just a burst of an idea and I confess, I couldn't think lengthily about it.

Edit: Still sekritly applies for a dwarven rukkian/stonecarver to build such a cave system

[musashi]

My first thought was ... don't we have this already?

[Erythil]

On a completely unrelated tangent, ARM 2's cave city was a coooool idea.

[musashi]

Under Tuluk!!!

[Zul]

On a completely unrelated tangent, ARM 2's cave city was a coooool idea.

Arm 2 was a cool idea.

[DustMight]

On a completely unrelated tangent, ARM 2's cave city was a coooool idea.

Arm 2 was a cool idea.

Arm 2 encompassed a lot of cool ideas, but in and of itself was not cool.

I'm still bitter about the kanks.

[PriestlySiren]

Actually.... this idea does pique my interest a little bit. But that's possibly because I've taken to exploring on another game and doing that have found something similar. But you had to fall about 20 feet and make a successful search-check to find it. My character would never live in it, but hide? Absolutely.

[James de Monet]

I think a more tenable idea would be to not have coded rooms at all. I would prefer to take away a ranger's wilderness quit ability, and instead give them the crafting skill "shelter". They could craft shelter from nothing, but certain room types (ie forest) would give a bonus to crafting it. Once the shelter was crafted, it would be "enter"able, but not movable. And I think at low levels, it would link to a room that was only one person large. Wanna play a raider? Hire a ranger to shelter your group on the go ("Gimme, gimme shelter!"). Then, at higher levels, you could branch other recipes, like "group shelter" or "disguised shelter" (ie you would need scan to find it, but you could follow someone who could see it in).

Personally, I would make the shelters quit safe and maybe save rooms, but, if there's a reset, your shelter "collapses" and you and all your stuff are dumped into the containing world room.

[Barsook]

I dig this idea.  ^

[Molten Heart]

Under Tuluk!!!

Under Zalanthas, IMO
Tunnels everywhere would be cool, even if they weren't all connected into one large maze of twisty little passages.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think a more tenable idea would be to not have coded rooms at all. I would prefer to take away a ranger's wilderness quit ability, and instead give them the crafting skill "shelter". They could craft shelter from nothing, but certain room types (ie forest) would give a bonus to crafting it. Once the shelter was crafted, it would be "enter"able, but not movable. And I think at low levels, it would link to a room that was only one person large. Wanna play a raider? Hire a ranger to shelter your group on the go ("Gimme, gimme shelter!"). Then, at higher levels, you could branch other recipes, like "group shelter" or "disguised shelter" (ie you would need scan to find it, but you could follow someone who could see it in).

Personally, I would make the shelters quit safe and maybe save rooms, but, if there's a reset, your shelter "collapses" and you and all your stuff are dumped into the containing world room.

While interesting, this would be a sever nerf to anyone but rangers, outside the city. SEVERE.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yeah true I don't personally know of any major cave systems that you can take a mount in with out them being stuck.  Not to say that their aren't any.

[Patuk]

I think a more tenable idea would be to not have coded rooms at all. I would prefer to take away a ranger's wilderness quit ability, and instead give them the crafting skill "shelter". They could craft shelter from nothing, but certain room types (ie forest) would give a bonus to crafting it. Once the shelter was crafted, it would be "enter"able, but not movable. And I think at low levels, it would link to a room that was only one person large. Wanna play a raider? Hire a ranger to shelter your group on the go ("Gimme, gimme shelter!"). Then, at higher levels, you could branch other recipes, like "group shelter" or "disguised shelter" (ie you would need scan to find it, but you could follow someone who could see it in).

Personally, I would make the shelters quit safe and maybe save rooms, but, if there's a reset, your shelter "collapses" and you and all your stuff are dumped into the containing world room.

While interesting, this would be a sever nerf to anyone but rangers, outside the city. SEVERE.

If you don't change the gameworld as is, and switch out ranger quit to this ability.. I'd say it's not a nerf to other classes at all.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I think a more tenable idea would be to not have coded rooms at all. I would prefer to take away a ranger's wilderness quit ability, and instead give them the crafting skill "shelter". They could craft shelter from nothing, but certain room types (ie forest) would give a bonus to crafting it. Once the shelter was crafted, it would be "enter"able, but not movable. And I think at low levels, it would link to a room that was only one person large. Wanna play a raider? Hire a ranger to shelter your group on the go ("Gimme, gimme shelter!"). Then, at higher levels, you could branch other recipes, like "group shelter" or "disguised shelter" (ie you would need scan to find it, but you could follow someone who could see it in).

Personally, I would make the shelters quit safe and maybe save rooms, but, if there's a reset, your shelter "collapses" and you and all your stuff are dumped into the containing world room.

While interesting, this would be a sever nerf to anyone but rangers, outside the city. SEVERE.

If you don't change the gameworld as is, and switch out ranger quit to this ability.. I'd say it's not a nerf to other classes at all.

I think he means the opposite.  Could be wrong, but if the shelter system was implemented presumably others can quit out and log back in the shelter thus giving everyone the ability to quit out in non-save/quit rooms thus empowering those outside the city. 
I think its a cool idea although its a very similar argument to tents being save/quit rooms.  Tents cannot be save/quit rooms for various reasons.  One being the problem with logging back in.  What if the tent is gone?  What if it on the players back?  Do you log back in in a breadbasket.  Your vision goes black. 
If you make shelters permanent  the alternative would be that shelters would be everywhere.  Although if something is in a non save room then it could disappear when you logged off, which brings us back to a similar issue.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think a more tenable idea would be to not have coded rooms at all. I would prefer to take away a ranger's wilderness quit ability, and instead give them the crafting skill "shelter". They could craft shelter from nothing, but certain room types (ie forest) would give a bonus to crafting it. Once the shelter was crafted, it would be "enter"able, but not movable. And I think at low levels, it would link to a room that was only one person large. Wanna play a raider? Hire a ranger to shelter your group on the go ("Gimme, gimme shelter!"). Then, at higher levels, you could branch other recipes, like "group shelter" or "disguised shelter" (ie you would need scan to find it, but you could follow someone who could see it in).

Personally, I would make the shelters quit safe and maybe save rooms, but, if there's a reset, your shelter "collapses" and you and all your stuff are dumped into the containing world room.

While interesting, this would be a sever nerf to anyone but rangers, outside the city. SEVERE.

If you don't change the gameworld as is, and switch out ranger quit to this ability.. I'd say it's not a nerf to other classes at all.

I'd be down with that. My deflectors went to max on it right away, didn't really consider this.

Honestly I just like the idea of more quit-save rooms throughout the known. But at the same time that sort of makes it too easy.

I'd also like a  character who could truly benefit from the search skill. More cool interesting hidden areas would rock. Especially ones that offer observation of rooms around them.

[James de Monet]

Yeah, I guess I'm not quite following you, RGS. I'm not suggesting a nerf to anyone but rangers, and that nerf would be replaced with a similar skill. If you mean it would nerf everyone else because it would make rangers OP, I get that, but the thing is ranger quit doesn't benefit anyone but the ranger. Craft shelter, though, stands to benefit all classes, not just those who have it.

Basically, rangers maintain their ability to quit in the wilderness, but they have to build a shelter first (which isn't that terrible, because you shouldn't be quitting out when pursued anyway). But, other people might be able to find your shelter and piggyback off your quit. Then, at higher levels, you gain the ability to make the shelter more useful, to yourself and everyone else.

I guess if you were worried about rangers being FORCED to benefit others, you could mess with the visibility distance of the shelters. If they're only visible from the same room...in the wilderness, that's like a needle in a haystack.

And the more OP shelters would only be available at higher levels of the skill. I suppose if you thought till reset was too long, though, you could give them a time duration. Or, you could make the higher levels of shelters only buildable with objects, like poles and branches or bolts of camouflaged cloth.

I wasn't originally thinking they should be save rooms, but without that, they don't address the OP's concern of having a place to store your stuff. And there's still a chance you lose it all. One reset would throw you (your relog spot) and all your crap out on the sand. Two resets would make all your stuff go *poof*. And of course, a shelter in the wastes is highly suspicious. If someone does find it, you know you're getting jacked.

The more complex the idea gets, though, the more coding it would require.

[hyzhenhok]

I would rather see this accomplished with the expansion of already existing but mechanically shallow skills (*coughsearchcough*) rather than the introduction of something completely new.

[Zul]

Arm 2 encompassed a lot of cool ideas, but in and of itself was not cool.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

[Zoan]

I think that an "Under" Zalanthas would be cool, with "darkness" being quite apparent given the lack of sunlight within. It would, if I were to form a portmanteau of sorts, be a form of "Underdark".

Black-skinned elves probably live there, because those buggers just live goddamn everywhere when it comes down to it.

[DustMight]

Arm 2 encompassed a lot of cool ideas, but in and of itself was not cool.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Totally didn't mean to be a hater, yo.

[BleakOne]

I think that an "Under" Zalanthas would be cool, with "darkness" being quite apparent given the lack of sunlight within. It would, if I were to form a portmanteau of sorts, be a form of "Underdark".

Black-skinned elves probably live there, because those buggers just live goddamn everywhere when it comes down to it.

They would be ruled by a Sorcerer Queen who takes the form of a spider.

They would all use two scimitars.

They would use a special type of bone which dissolves under sunlight but is stronger than all others in the deep dark.

[evil_erdlu]

I think that an "Under" Zalanthas would be cool, with "darkness" being quite apparent given the lack of sunlight within. It would, if I were to form a portmanteau of sorts, be a form of "Underdark".

Black-skinned elves probably live there, because those buggers just live goddamn everywhere when it comes down to it.

They would be ruled by a Sorcerer Queen who takes the form of a spider.

They would all use two scimitars.

They would use a special type of bone which dissolves under sunlight but is stronger than all others in the deep dark.

... and one of them, a true emo, would start a journey to leave everything behind and break the rule, be the exception. He would be tribeless, ride an inix, sleep with dwarves and mudsex with looooong delays between each emote.

[RogueGunslinger]

What this a Drizzt reference? Been a long time since I read any of them books.

[Bushranger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xLERSRpYQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

More caves and stuff is a great idea. A lot more caves.

[Wug]

There are a ton of caves. There are more than a couple hundred cave rooms worth of large networks, small networks, and single rooms. Some of them are well known but many are not. Some have not been visited in multiple real life years.

Many of them are hard to live in and explore by design, however. Zalanthas is a harsh world and our game has a small playerbase. With the HRPT, the world has changed quite a bit. If you want to explore, go out and explore. If you die, hey... so did a lot of other folks. The Byn always wants fresh characters.

[Vwest]

The Byn always wants fresh characters.