Author Topic: Playing females as EZ Mode  (Read 28608 times)

lordcooper

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »
One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game.

Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?

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Red Ranger

  • Posts: 318
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2013, 12:20:47 PM »
One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game.

Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?

Well, when the contributions of elven, dwarven, mul, or half-giant PCs are devalued, there aren't any elven, dwarven, mul, or half-giant players that feel devalued and under attack.

Edit: Also, when human PC achievements are devalued, it doesn't make the human players feel lesser than the elven, dwarven, mul, or half-giant players.  Because, you know, all the players are human.  But not all the players are male.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 12:26:33 PM by Red Ranger »
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Fujikoma

  • Posts: 2305
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2013, 12:21:41 PM »

Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?


Personally, I think the behavior of a fair number of the lower ranks among them does the devaluing job fairly well.  :D
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 12:23:35 PM by Fujikoma »
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Quell

  • Posts: 271
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2013, 12:23:15 PM »
One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game.
Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?

Yes, actually it probably would. People would not take offense though because IRL we're all humans, so no one's going to complain. To be a bit farsical: If there were elves in the real world saying this, you could probably imagine a fair number of humans getting irked.

I'd like to point out though that even if something makes one feel bad, sometimes it needs to be said anyways if its ever going to be addressed. I like this thread. I think it'll generate some good ideas about how to address the problems the original poster faces, and it would never have gotten started without the understandably irksome comment that generated it.

lordcooper

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2013, 12:32:16 PM »
One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game.

Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?

Well, when the contributions of elven, dwarven, mul, or half-giant PCs are devalued, there aren't any elven, dwarven, mul, or half-giant players that feel devalued and under attack.

Technically those races represent the men in that comparison.

I kinda see what you're trying to get at though.  The solution to whichever problem actually exists (female characters being easy mode or being falsely thought of as easy mode) is exactly the same: the playerbase achieving a greater degree of IC/OOC separation.

@Quell:  Nobody seems to be saying the game is any easier for female players, just female characters which are played by men too.
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flurry

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2013, 12:43:30 PM »
One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game.

Humans are easy mode compared to many other races.  Does saying that devalue the achievements of human characters in game?

The racial differences are by design, and coded that way. The playing field is not meant to be level, racially. So, yes, the same goal may be less impressive if achieved by a human than if achieved by, say, a half-giant.
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream." - Shirley Jackson, The Haunting of Hill House

Quell

  • Posts: 271
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2013, 12:43:58 PM »
@Quell:  Nobody seems to be saying the game is any easier for female players, just female characters which are played by men too.

This might be getting overly complex, but I was trying to make my metaphor as apt as possible.

Original statement: People in the real world saying playing a female character is playing on easy mode devalues the accomplishments of the player (of either gender).

Your question: Does saying playing humans is playing on easymode devalue a player of a human's accomplishment?

My response: Yes it does, but it's not as likely to press buttons because we only have humans in the real world.

My farsical metaphorical example: Imagine what it would feel like if real life elves were saying that playing your human character was playing on easy mode.

The point I was trying to make was that there's a greater emotional response if you make a comment on a subset in the game that has a real life counterpart.

AreteX

  • Posts: 411
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2013, 12:48:10 PM »
I wonder how many times someone knows a male is playing a female character are actually correct in their assumption?

I think this thread pretty much points out that there might be bias, but everyone should not be biased as per the docs.

Suhuy

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2013, 12:50:21 PM »
Contrary to where this discussion seems to be going, I think things have changed immensely since the earlier days of Arm. And for the better. In those days it was not uncommon for some exotic, buxom and pristine female PC to arrive upon the scene and receive instant coddling from her seniors, the sort which immediately suggests that real world concepts of "femininity" were apparently applauded and even helped to elevate one's social status in the game world. I can think of several such examples and I'm quite confident that that trick would not work in the present version of Arm, not by a long shot. That isn't to suggest that roles such as concubines and courtesans don't have their place in the game, but the idea that females are "easy mode" is a lot less true now than it was then.

Plus I think there's an overreaction to the idea of sexism going on here. The characters you encounter in game are played by real people with real world social mores. It's understandable if some of this seeps into the game from time to time. In fact it's a pretty big expectation to think that this won't happen. Of course instead of saying things like "You fight like a girl" it would be more appropriate to the game world if we said things like "You fight like a wimp", but sometimes I think people simply inadvertently blurt out the RL expression by force of habit more than anything else. Now, you can get angry OOCly or even try to RP that their character is weird and out of place, or you can roll with the punches and play as though what they really said was "fight like a wimp" (since that is the IC interpretation of what they're trying to say anyway). The next time someone says "You fight like a girl" why not respond by saying: "What do you mean I fight like a wimp? How dare you say that? I will show you how wrong you are!" That way you've OOCly demonstrated the error of their ways with an IC remark while not threatening the stability of the scene either. Just a thought!


LauraMars

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2013, 12:58:16 PM »
In my opinion, it's completely ok to call someone out for saying something like "You fight like a girl."  It's a violation of the documentation, not appropriate to the game world, and the player who said it should be made aware of this so they don't make that mistake again.  The expectation should not be "it's going to happen anyway, so why bother correcting it?" or a "pretend this didn't happen so nobody gets uncomfortable."   If someone said that to a character of mine, I'd absolutely roleplay it as happening, and my character would react with extreme confusion.
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Quell

  • Posts: 271
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2013, 12:59:49 PM »
Contrary to where this discussion seems to be going, I think things have changed immensely since the earlier days of Arm. And for the better. In those days it was not uncommon for some exotic, buxom and pristine female PC to arrive upon the scene and receive instant coddling from her seniors, the sort which immediately suggests that real world concepts of "femininity" were apparently applauded and even helped to elevate one's social status in the game world. I can think of several such examples and I'm quite confident that that trick would not work in the present version of Arm, not by a long shot. That isn't to suggest that roles such as concubines and courtesans don't have their place in the game, but the idea that females are "easy mode" is a lot less true now than it was then.

Plus I think there's an overreaction to the idea of sexism going on here. The characters you encounter in game are played by real people with real world social mores. It's understandable if some of this seeps into the game from time to time. In fact it's a pretty big expectation to think that this won't happen. Of course instead of saying things like "You fight like a girl" it would be more appropriate to the game world if we said things like "You fight like a wimp", but sometimes I think people simply inadvertently blurt out the RL expression by force of habit more than anything else. Now, you can get angry OOCly or even try to RP that their character is weird and out of place, or you can roll with the punches and play as though what they really said was "fight like a wimp" (since that is the IC interpretation of what they're trying to say anyway). The next time someone says "You fight like a girl" why not respond by saying: "What do you mean I fight like a wimp? How dare you say that? I will show you how wrong you are!" That way you've OOCly demonstrated the error of their ways with an IC remark while not threatening the stability of the scene either. Just a thought!

I'd tend to agree with this statement, but with the caveat that just because there is less of something doesn't mean it's fixed. There's been more than a few examples posted here about people encountering this sort of behavior. I know I tend to encounter it in spurts that over the long run might not be that egregious, but when you're going through one it can be jarring.

I also think that with the new influx of players, we're going to see a temporary increases in the propensity to bring in real world norms in unacceptable ways (and not just with regards to gender), so discussing what to do about it is more necessary now than maybe it has been in the past... Which you did, so bravo!

Morrolan

  • Posts: 2760
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2013, 01:03:34 PM »
Remember that there is the option of logging a player complaint. If you're worried about being mean, then just couch the message to staff as "please monitor this, I didn't want to ruin an otherwise awesome scene by suddenly OOCing."

Staff doesn't issue tickets, they address concerns, issues, and problems for the good of the game. Whatever the patter on the GDB, they're not the boogeymen that many GDB discussions make them out to be. They are as capable of gentle correction as they are the proverbial smackdown.
"I have seen him show most of the attributes one expects of a noble: courtesy, kindness, and honor.  I would also say he is one of the most bloodthirsty bastards I have ever met."

lordcooper

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2013, 01:05:17 PM »
@Quell:  Nobody seems to be saying the game is any easier for female players, just female characters which are played by men too.

This might be getting overly complex, but I was trying to make my metaphor as apt as possible.

Original statement: People in the real world saying playing a female character is playing on easy mode devalues the accomplishments of the player (of either gender).

Your question: Does saying playing humans is playing on easymode devalue a player of a human's accomplishment?

My response: Yes it does, but it's not as likely to press buttons because we only have humans in the real world.

My farsical metaphorical example: Imagine what it would feel like if real life elves were saying that playing your human character was playing on easy mode.

The point I was trying to make was that there's a greater emotional response if you make a comment on a subset in the game that has a real life counterpart.

It seems we view roleplay very differently.  My characters accomplish stuff, not me.  I also wouldn't care about those elven players (or, more relevantly, players who primarily play elves) pointing out the truth.  My ego isn't wrapped up in how other people view the accomplishments of figments of my imagination.  I'd suggest that'd be a bit unhealthy.
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LauraMars

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2013, 01:08:36 PM »
Now, you can get angry OOCly or even try to RP that their character is weird and out of place, or you can roll with the punches and play as though what they really said was "fight like a wimp" (since that is the IC interpretation of what they're trying to say anyway). The next time someone says "You fight like a girl" why not respond by saying: "What do you mean I fight like a wimp? How dare you say that? I will show you how wrong you are!" That way you've OOCly demonstrated the error of their ways with an IC remark while not threatening the stability of the scene either. Just a thought!

Just want to again express that this isn't really going to show anyone the error of their ways - all it will do is make the offending player think that their RP partner also believes that girl = wimp.

File a player complaint if this happens, seriously.  And address what just happened in game.  Nobody should feel obligated to coddle or gloss over this kind of behavior - this is fucking Zalanthas.  KILL THEM FOR BEING CRAZY AND FOR THEIR BOOTS.
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Refugee

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2013, 02:00:43 PM »
There are, and have been, so many awesome female combatant PCs that I can usually laugh at someone who says something like "Fights like a girl" and point them at some girl who can kick their ass.

In this game, more than any other MUD I've played, I've seen more women played as serious, hard-working, hard-fighting PCs, who don't flirt their way to getting away with things that their male counterparts can't get away with.  That choice of play, "I'm a woman and so I can mouth off to my sergeant, skip my chores, and otherwise not do things the guys have to do" has always annoyed me immensely, and I don't see so much of it here.  I'm glad of that.  It's demeaning to women to play them that way. 

Most women I know in RL are smart, hard-working people juggling impossible loads and doing it well.  Most women I see in MUDs are caricatures out of Hollywood, or maybe high school society.  I really appreciate players who create real, believable women.

Barzalene

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2013, 02:07:40 PM »
And there are also plenty of badass non-combat female pcs, getting ahead on merit, not sex-appeal
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Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Kaineus

  • Posts: 459
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2013, 02:08:52 PM »
I totally agree with the post above, and a lot of the other posts. Here's my rant, if anyone cares.

I've found this game to be extremely egalitarian, but what always messes up the equation is the human desire for sex, just like in real life.

In game, I've found that the dudes who have given my characters free shit have eventually wanted to mud hump. Only once have I encountered a male character said overtly sexist things like "The only thing women really want to do is to have babies," and "No matter how hard you try, you won't be as strong or smart as a man is," and I reported his ass for it.

In real life, I've found I've never been told "LOL you're weak or stupid because you're biologically female." That being said, I've been propositioned and sexually harassed a number of times by coworkers, managers, roomates--people I didn't want to be hit on by. The solution was simple--refuse their gifts and propositions. (Recently in my job I've noticed a bunch of dudes who used to hit on me from this one department have all decided to collectively hate on me--calling me a dyke, saying I'm too hairy, shit like that. But do I give a fuck? No. Males who retaliate against females who refuse their advances just look like even bigger assholes in the long run. Moreover, the law is on my side--I've been logging the shit they've been saying to me. I could sue if I wanted. Armageddon has a similar option for excessive sexism--file a complaint.)

If you don't like that playing a female is EZ mode, don't let it become easy mode--don't use sexism to your advantage. Have self respect, don't depend on skeezy guys who are being generous because you know they want to hump you.

The majority of human being, mammals, and vertebrates want to have sex. A good way to get sex is to treat the people you want to have sex with in a preferential manner. If sex is one of your primary ways of getting what you need to survive, why, that's called being a whore.

Not all women are whores. Some women like to prove themselves. Some women get insulted by chauvinist behavior and refuse to benefit from it. If you're a woman who doesn't like the idea that playing a female is EZ mode, be the change you want to see--don't let it be EZ mode. Conversely, don't assume all female players and female characters are benefiting from sexism. My current character owns only two pieces of gear that were gifts, one from a male PC and one from a female PC, each gift worth only about 30 coins. She's a grown ass woman who gets what she needs on her own.

Iiyola

  • Posts: 3964
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2013, 02:15:21 PM »
Played both sexes. And I don't think it's the ldesc which is attracting the player. It's the roleplay. Good roleplay attracts people, be it to cause some shit, to be a catalyst, to spread rumors, to mudsex, etc. My experience is that sex of your char doesn't matter. It CAN be a tool, yes, but that completely depends on the situation and your roleplay partner.

Just make your roleplay fun. When people notice your char isn't a dull person, who has true emotions, who hemotes, who is basically 3D, who does the (un)expected (yes, the expected can sometimes be just as refreshing), you will find there is no difference.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

Morrolan

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2013, 02:27:42 PM »
Also remember, considering that PCs live an average of 2-3 weeks RL, your problem-children will solve themselves quickly. Unlike RL, ignoring minor problems actually works.

"Huh huh I'm a grebber and yer hot."

think (superior) A crazy person. I'll laugh when he crosses the wrong person. Until then, I'll just keep an eye on my own goals.

Major problems, of course, need to be elevated to staff attention.
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Dalmeth

  • Posts: 3349
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2013, 02:45:41 PM »
The problem with a cold and aloof character is that nine times out of ten, you're trying to be cold and aloof in a social situation.  Like sitting at a bar.  Which negates being cold and aloof.  People who are genuinely cold and aloof don't sit in bars because they aren't comfortable with idleness.

It just so happens that some people like to stand out from the crowd (of a bar) by being cold and aloof.  In a highly active social scene, it's a great way to get people to talk to you without anything to say yourself.  People focus on the odd one out. 

However, this has become a behavior associated women.  That is all.
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Fujikoma

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2013, 03:04:19 PM »
I have seen many badass female characters since I started playing. My characters usually respect them the same as male characters, but since my characters are mostly hetero and things are as harsh as they are they do tend to find accomplishment and power attractive in a woman... I don't think it out of line for them to mention this to the other character at some point, but without any kind of favorable response they usually drop it.

They may not like some of them, male or female, but they do have a grudging sort of respect even for the ones they dislike, even if they sit long hours contemplating their untimely demise.

As a player, it is possible to like characters my character is not so fond of, and by extension, the player on the other end, whether male playing female, female playing male, male playing male, or female playing female.

I have seen other characters that I, as a player, am not so fond of... And I'm not sure what I think about that.  :-X
Quote from: Nyr
Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.
Quote from: bcw81
"You can never have your mountainhome because you can't grow a beard."
~Tektolnes to Thrain Ironsword

Kismetic

  • Posts: 7007
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2013, 03:04:56 PM »
I'm so proud to see this group not arguing in the newbie thread.  I have no actual comments on sexism (not with a 10 cord pole, newp).
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

Fredd

  • Posts: 1716
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2013, 04:33:24 PM »
What it is is that female PCs seem to be more approachable and more sympathetic.  After all, IRL, it's usually the men that do the approaching, and it's the men who aren't supposed to be vulnerable/sympathetic.  This is absolutely an innapropriate cultural bleed-over into the game, but it's one that will not be easily shaken.

Playing a vulnerable and sympathetic male seems to result in many unpleasant social consequences, or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

Don't do it as a breed. Do it as a rich guy. You get a 100% different reaction.
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Korgoth

  • Posts: 37
Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2013, 04:39:13 PM »
I see no problem with giving other players gifts if you want their attention or whatever it may be.  Seems like the act of giving a gift should be a normal thing if someone catches your eye.  There are always two sides to every perceived situation and two ways to tip the scales back into balance. If it's an equal world and all, maybe all you female characters need to step up and start showering males with gifts when you want their attention. To be honest, I'm pretty sure I've gotten more gifts as a male character from other males than from females. Though those characters didn't really try to hook up with women and were more like tools to be fed and kept happy. So maybe that's why.

Morrolan

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Re: Playing females as EZ Mode
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2013, 04:54:21 PM »
[removed by author]

Except I have to keep this:

Korgoth the Barbarian

« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 05:07:49 PM by Morrolan »
"I have seen him show most of the attributes one expects of a noble: courtesy, kindness, and honor.  I would also say he is one of the most bloodthirsty bastards I have ever met."