Furthering commerce and trade on Zalanthas

[burble]

When armor gets messed up - go to the npc shop.
When clothes/etc. wear out, buy another at the npc shop.

I don't care one way or the other but how does that help pcs?

As far as virtual zillionaires go..the help file on "deposit" says: "Only when Templars observe extraordinary sums do they levy taxes against House Nenyuk--at which time Nenyuk taxes its depositors."
Guess I'm the only one who's been terrified of depositing too much. Although, I have no idea what too much is.

Ideas on sid:
A junk dealer who pays very little but allows you to empty your inventory for something (2 sid/1 sid). Instead of selling, it could actually junk the items.
A broker (board) specifically for buy/sell notices. They could roll off quickly (a RL week or so) so it doesn't get cluttered with ancient notices. This would benefit peak players more than off peak.

[Barsook]

The idea is to give the skills more use and therefore the PC's with the skills can sell their services to the ones without the skill, sid can be made that way.  Then those PC's can use their sid that they made for other things and it goes around.

But I like your idea on the junk buyer and the board too, but for the board that could be abused.

[Nyr]

In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs?  That's what it looks like this is boiling down to.  You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two.  You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.

It might be that it's less a case of simply 'making money' and it's more a case of....

...wanting to sell more stuff to NPCs and not being able to do so.

Like I said, it's only one thing you are having an issue with--if you're having an issue.  You could join one of the three great merchant houses and craft for them.  Get good enough and you can command commissions for masterwork.  From PCs, not necessarily from NPCs, but communication with your clan staff and the clan hierarchy in those cases oftentimes will mean cases where you get tossed virtual contracts to do this or that thing.

Crafting stuff and selling it to NPCs is not a PC concept.

If you make good shit you should be able to sell it. One, two,

Yep, that makes sense to be able to sell one or two good things that you have crafted on your own, sure.  A low quantity, because you're one person creating stuff to try and make a living...

twenty or a hundred, to someone, for some price.

...not a one-person doodad factory trying to be a Zalanthas.org billionaire.  Holy cow!  If you crafted twenty or a hundred of something with intention to sell it all of it to an NPC buyer or even a PC buyer, you're part of the problem.  The game isn't perfect as far as NPC sales are concerned, but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit.  You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.

And back to the point at hand:  crafting stuff and selling it to NPCs is not a PC concept.  Crafting things and selling things in general can be a PC concept, but you'll have to work within what both PCs and the virtual world and NPCs want.  Cutting out PCs and the virtual world means you're focusing on one aspect of the world that is coded up to be there as a convenience, not the end-all, be-all for merchant roles.

[Lizzie]

Nyr I think the point of the last part you responded to, is that people are trying to make -better- shit - but they can't, until they've made a whole ot of 'not so good' shit. A lot of stuff that no one wants. You have to make that stuff, if you want to branch and make better stuff. It's how the code works. And while you're ruining dozens of gortok hides that you paid 2 sids each for, and finally managed to tan 10 of them and STILL haven't branched anything useful yet, you need some place to dump off those 10 hides, so that you have room in your pack for the next 10 hides. You are getting thirsty, you spent all your sids on a mount so you could drag all those hides in bags and packs into the city to dump off at the NPC sellers, but they already have 5 of everything and don't need ANY of your gortok hides. And neither does any PC you've encountered (you can't actually go INTO the bar, because you're stuck with a mount that's packed with 10 tanned gortok hides that you can't carry, and no sids to rent an apartment to drop them off in).

This seems to only happen at the start of a trader's career - once you get past the initial hurdle of only being able to craft newbie-crafting stuff, it gets much easier, and the path to wealth widens by leaps and bounds. But getting to the point of the widening can be insanely frustrating.

I think - if there were some way to segue from "noob crafting stuff that no one wants and the merchants already have 5 of" to "I can make anything and sell anything to anyone at any time and there will always be an NPC willing to shell out 500 sids for SOMETHING I've made and I have three apartments in each city so all my stuff can just sit there til I find a buyer" - a little less painfully, it'd be - better. Subjectively, but that's just my opinion, man.

Also, on the other side of things, I agree that it should be more difficult to be that guy with 3 apartments in each city, hoarding all their sellable stuff just so that they can be "that guy" who spam-sells all the NPC merchants out of their sids. That was why I posted the ideas I posted - the 5 items per PC per RL week, or the 2 of any/each given item per PC per NPC per RL week. It makes it only slightly easier for new crafters/grebbers/PCs in general to get past that new phase, and limits the vastness of wealth that not-new crafters/grebbers/PCs can make exclusively by selling to NPCs.

[AmandaGreathouse]

but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit.  You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.

While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.

I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.

For the most part, I totally agree, but I do wish that there were a way to make room for certain items to bypass the 5-item limit if they were items that would be particularly in-demand in shops as well as with pcs.

[Nyr]

Nyr I think the point of the last part you responded to, is that people are trying to make -better- shit - but they can't

...easily do so as independent merchants without the resources of a great merchant house.  They can, however, join a Great Merchant House and do jobs as indicated.  They can, however, junk that "junk" stuff they made that no one wants and get more 'sid by doing one of the various automated jobs around town.  They will have to get their hands dirty and work to get their skills up on their own without going broke, but it will involve doing more than "craft 100 doodads; sell 100 dodads; profit."

[Nyr]

but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit.  You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.

While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.

And you're selling those or creating those for GMH hunters.  PCs.  So that's already different from selling straight up to NPCs.  You're selling something that is in demand.

I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.

And you can definitely sell those to PCs as well.  Another good point.  And not to belabor the point, but the virtual economy already sells stuff off automatically.  As I said earlier, we can look at very small tweaks to it as we have tweaked it over time anyway, but first we should look at the people exploiting the system.

[DustMight]

...not a one-person doodad factory trying to be a Zalanthas.org billionaire.  Holy cow!  If you crafted twenty or a hundred of something with intention to sell it all of it to an NPC buyer or even a PC buyer, you're part of the problem. 

QFT

[AmandaGreathouse]

but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit.  You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.

While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.

And you're selling those or creating those for GMH hunters.  PCs.  So that's already different from selling straight up to NPCs.  You're selling something that is in demand.

I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.

And you can definitely sell those to PCs as well.  Another good point.  And not to belabor the point, but the virtual economy already sells stuff off automatically.  As I said earlier, we can look at very small tweaks to it as we have tweaked it over time anyway, but first we should look at the people exploiting the system.

Point 1: Touche. I suggested it largely because I feel like the much vaster pc demand would (if such possible tweaks were considered) warrant those being looked at because of how high the demand -can- be.

Point 2: Also a fair point. If I notice that 1 item makes 2 things that are of the same material and quality and (apparent) difficulty which also serve the same purpose (ie, both shirts, both skirts, both jewelry, etc), and one sells to an npc for more than twice the amount of the other, would it be appropriate to assume that I should typo/bug/idea said item from here on out so that staff is aware of the discrepancy? I can't really make said items with my current pc, but if you'd like a few examples, I'd be more than happy to send in a request about it?

[Nyr]

We can definitely take a look at it, sure.  There may be something else going into the price discrepancy.

[Incognito]

This topic took a turn somewhere - and led to a derail about indie merchants making too much money. Obviously the initial post had nothing to do with this subject.

Having said that - and having read what a lot of people as well as Nyr has pointed out - the reality is that the majority of indie merchant PCs making enough money to get by, a few of them get rich, and an even fewer percentage get so rich that they might warrant attention.

This attention might be IC - from merchant houses who are concerned about said merchant infringing on their business or it could be OOC - from Staff who feel that the PC in question is spam-crafting or not RPing well enough to back up his/her crafting activities.

Regardless of this - a merchant trying to get rich is the same as a warrior trying to get buff or a mage trying to get powerful - its what they do - for a living! As long as it's done in good taste and with the requisite RP, then it shouldn't be faulted. Perhaps the merchants are hoarding materials or saving up sids to buy a wagon, or start their own merchant house - who knows?

There's a ton of mentions from ppl in this thread about indie merchants who are inordinately rich - but there's no mention from anyone about warriors who can solo a bahamet or assassins who can OHK a silt horror (just examples to make a point).

Players who put in the time and effort to play successful merchants or grebbers deserve the rewards - they aren't abusing the system in absolute terms IMO. And there's always the option to lower prices on PC to NPC sales if Staff does feel that the money being made by merchants in general is exorbitant at a certain point. Trust me - its not as easy as it sounds - playing a successful merchant is tedious, and requires patience, just as any other guild does on Arm. Anyone who doubts it - needs to make a merchant PC and try it out for themselves!

If a handful of specific players do manage to abuse the mercantile/crafting system on an OOC level, then they should be penalized on a personal level with appropriate demerits to their individual accounts - but I strongly feel that it should not reflect on merchants in general.

[AmandaGreathouse]

We can definitely take a look at it, sure.  There may be something else going into the price discrepancy.

Sent you a request. It's mostly a recent experience I had with a very specific crafting skill that made me notice it. In some places the discrepancy makes sense, in other's it's like... 2 items made from the same thing, same amount of difficulty, selling to the same shop and they more than 2x the amount for one than they do for the other, and the cheaper one you can make enough off of for a day or two worth of doing some of the coded jobs.

[Incognito]

Skimming on the various derail issues which have crept up into this thread.....

Durability of craftables as well as tools - this is a classic example of an OOC issue. Whether we all prefer them to be the way they are (indestructible) or whether we want them to wear with usage - is entirely an issue of playability v/s realism. How far do you want to take this issue and which items should be covered by it - will have repercussions on the playability of the game in general. Sure, we could have it so tools wear off....so the end result would be something like...."Hmm ok, my chisel wears out every 20 rocks I carve, so I'll just need to that many more, and factor in the cost of the tools into my selling price."

On the issue of PC merchants being a detriment to merchant houses - the auction house doesn't have to be run by Nenyuk - it could just as well be run by a consortium of GMHs, with each GMH having their own NPC representing their interests and raking in the profits which would otherwise have come to them any way from their shops in the bazaar/marketplace.

On the topic of PC merchants being too rich - the appropriate GMH heads could deal with those individuals ICLY or in specific cases Staff would handle it on an OOC level if warranted. Having said that, an auction house would in no way ADD to a merchant's riches. If a merchant sells to a shop - he/she gets hard cash right away. On the other hand, if the merchant puts the same item on auction, its very likely s/he will not get the same money that the shopkeeper offers. And moreover, if the merchant forgets to collect his dues or recollect the item in time, s/he risks losing it altogether.

An auction house is just ONE idea - there can be many alternate options to achieve the end goals. The basic concept was to overcome the issues I listed in the original post i.e. about NPC merchants having limited coin and NPC merchants not willing to accept more than a certain number of a specific item.

[Nyr]

By the way, for you poor bastids still offering grains of spice to the same old spice buyer in Red Storm, note that there's a bulk spice buyer in the bazaar and you really should be using him instead.  I'll make sure this is in the helpfile for spice sifting.

[Molten Heart]

By the way, for you poor bastids still offering grains of spice to the same old spice buyer in Red Storm, note that there's a bulk spice buyer in the bazaar and you really should be using him instead.  I'll make sure this is in the helpfile for spice sifting.

I like to try to sell to the old spice buyer first because <IC information> he makes me smile.

[Marauder Moe]

You guys, we're not even allowed to have sandwiches in this game.  What makes you think, then, that we're going to get eBay?

Also, merchants making coin is not the equivalent of warriors getting skilled.  Merchants getting skilled is the equivalent of warriors getting skilled.  For no class is, or should, the act of increasing skills guaranteed to be profitable.

[Desertman]

If we get an auction house in game, can I get a app on my phone that allows me to check the status of my items I have up for bid?

(Dat WoW reference.)

/sarcasm

Please no on the auction house concept.

[Barsook]

I'm starting to say so to the OP's idea now.  I think that's not needed in Arm but the other ideas- yes.

[Twilight]

Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile.  And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.

Guess I need to update my modus operandi.

[Nyr]

Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile.  And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.

Guess I need to update my modus operandi.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this :  0.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.

[Sakra]

You guys don't need an auction house to have an auction. Make your stuff, announce it in bars, and voila. Auction. It's far better to do it all IC.

[Patuk]

Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile.  And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.

Guess I need to update my modus operandi.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this :  0.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.

[Nyr]

I don't want to come right out and say that there's some really suspicious stuff going on based on a few variables (I'd have to dig deeper and get more data), but there are a few people that are using certain commands at an order of magnitude higher than randomly selected players on at the same time (within a very short period of time, at that).

[Twilight]

Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile.  And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.

Guess I need to update my modus operandi.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this :  0.

Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets):  a number greater than 0 and less than 5.

I'm not surprised really.  I was more trying to reference that at one point the helpfile did state (and I need to paraphrase here since it is now reworded) that merchants were typically some of the riches characters in the game.  But the method it stated at that time also has a high risk/reward, at least for independents.

I wasn't trying to insinuate I was in the game, doing this.  Cause I can't talk about what I am in the game, doing    

[Nyr]

I'm not surprised really.  I was more trying to reference that at one point the helpfile did state (and I need to paraphrase here since it is now reworded) that merchants were typically some of the riches characters in the game.  But the method it stated at that time also has a high risk/reward, at least for independents.

I wasn't trying to insinuate I was in the game, doing this.  Cause I can't talk about what I am in the game, doing    

It says that now, I think.  It's in the helpfile at least or it says as much, I think...learn the prices in a village or city, compiling knowledge of how much stuff really costs, then using that to develop trade routes to make a great deal of money...that sounds kinda cool.

I'm not pointing a finger at you at all--I'm pointing out that the richest merchants in-game seem to be exploiting the system by spamcrafting and flooding the NPC markets rather than doing what is suggested in the helpfile.