You Know When that Wet... Stuff... Falls... From Up There?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I was wondering, would the average citizen know what 'rain' is on Zalanthas? Or would the concept be entirely baffling to them?

You'd have to assume, at least in the North, that it -does- rain at least once in awhile. Even if the plants survive by digging their roots down into hidden aquifers, there would need to be -some- type of water cycle to keep life moving.

Therefore, I ask... Is rain at all existant on Zalanthas? I'd think it'd have to be... Even if it was every 100 years or so. Would the average person even know what 'rain' is? Would it case mass panic and the murdering of all Vivaduans?

What I think would be cool would be a 'Thunderstorm RPT'. You know, the Known World's first RPT that doesn't involve a lot of people dying. Then people could react to it however they wanted, maybe have a bunch of beautiful desert plants sprout up... And from that point on, 'rain' would be fairly common IC knowledge.

What are your opinions on this?

[Marauder Moe]

Well, many aspect of Zalanthas don't really make scientific sense (magick and horrid monsters aside, even).  I've never heard rain mentioned and 'storm' always refers to sandstorm.  I suppose theoretically most of Zalanthas's moisture could arrive as humidity in the air from other regions of the world.  Or perhaps underground rivers.  All this is speculation, of course.

On a side note, many people (in Allanak at least) are somewhat familiar with the different types of elementalists.  However, most of those elements are encountered fairly often in daily life.  Water, earth, wind, fire, darkness, death (Nilazi?).  Elkros doesn't seem to fit.  As far as I know sandstorms don't produce lightning.  So, how do Zalanthians know what Elkros is?

[Dan]

Sandstorms can produce lightning.

[sarahjc]

But if there are trees there would have to be some kind of rain, some kind. Take Dune for example, it never rained..never, the only plants where what man planted and fed. But no Forests. So there has to be rain, right?

[Dan]

Wrong. In theory, which I just came up with... the elemental plane of water could have underground 'leaks' onto the Zalanthan plane. Thus giving a little moisture to the plants that need it. Elementalist Vivaduans could also play a large part in this. Perhaps there is a quality to them that just by their presense feeds the plants of the planet their needed moisture. Or, the flora of Zalanthas is so evolved as to suck every single bit of moisture it can from the air, and decomposing animals, animals which travel to above-ground water sources, like an oasis. Or even the few sorcerors, of the preserving persuasion could be all that hold the water level of the Known-World within its bounds of livability... heh.

Who knows? Its not Earth. How do you explain Magick to someone who doesn't know how to control it? I think that can basically be said to the same effect for how things survive on Zalanthas without water.

[Carnage]

I'm inbetween. Without getting too IC although everyone probably knows what I'm talking about, I've had characters have hallucinations of droplets of water hitting their head. Unless it's just a joke to RL, I'm of the assumption that there's rain somewhere.

[ashyom]

No rain at all. EVER.
This is a desert planet.  The idea that rain even exist is laughable.  If you tried to explain what rain was, most people would go, "Huh?" or just laugh at you and chalk you off as a crazy person.

As for water source...It is feasible that there could be underground source of moisture that feeds the plants in the Northland.  Also, even just a little bit of moisture in the air or ground would be enough to keep the plants alive.  Remember, this environment has had thousands of years to adapt (in a hurry) to the desert climate and survive efficiently on just a few drops of water.

Reminder: the Northlands still a desert environment.  It's only a few degrees cooler than the Southlands.  It's been said that the temperature in south soars up to over 115 degrees F (41 C) at high-sun.

And yes - there are lightning storms.  You don't need moisture to produce static, aka electricity.

XOXOXO,
Ashyom

[X-D]

I've always been suprised there are not random lightning strikes during huge sandstorms on zalanthas I mean the amount of static electricity built up in them would be monstrous...hhhmm, maybe thats where obsidian really comes from.

On rain, No, there need not be, there need not even be underground water supplies for the plants and trees. The simplest explanation would be, there are chemicals IRL that can pull moisture from the air (don't ask me names or how they work) The plants on zalanthas use chemicals of that nature. Using such a method would be easy for a plant.

[Marauder Moe]

Anyone have any evidence supporting/rebuking the claim that sandstorms can produce lightning?  From what I know of how lightning is produced it requires small ice crystals in the atmosphere to build up the charge.  I don't think sand would pick up much of a charge, if any, from just being blown off the ground.  Also, even if a sandstorm could build up a charge, I don't think they reach an altitude high enough to prevent any low level discharges that would preclude lightning.  This is all from my highschool/college/internet experience, however.  Anyone know for sure?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Also, most desert environments get cold at night (no humidity to keep the air temp up), and as a result, moisture will condense on plants as the air cools.  It's the same principle as digging a pit in the sand and putting a tarp over it.

[X-D]

Hhhmm, somebody answer Moe, I can't, I'm at work, But ask yourself this, is it easier to build a static charge on a glass plate or a sheet of ice?

[Delirium]

I think it would be cool to have a random (but rare) chance of lightning striking someone or their kank during the very worst of sandstorms, like the ones that are "blinding" or worse. Normally, only the foolish or desperate would be out in the desert during them anyway.

Stun you for a little bit perhaps, knock off a good amount of health, make all your clothes and armor burnt. Good thing you weren't wearing a metal breastplate! :twisted:

[Anonymous]

I've had characters have hallucinations of droplets of water hitting their head. Unless it's just a joke to RL, I'm of the assumption that there's rain somewhere.

Who knows, maybe its a halluncination of the past. There is a widely traveled past creekbed in the grasslands east of Tulukso it would seem that Zalanthas had running water at some point, so who knows, maybe there was also a tropical climate.

[Lazloth]

Anyone have any evidence supporting/rebuking the claim that sandstorms can produce lightning?  From what I know of how lightning is produced it requires small ice crystals in the atmosphere to build up the charge.  I don't think sand would pick up much of a charge, if any, from just being blown off the ground.  Also, even if a sandstorm could build up a charge, I don't think they reach an altitude high enough to prevent any low level discharges that would preclude lightning.  This is all from my highschool/college/internet experience, however.  Anyone know for sure?

I know we've talked about some of this stuff in the past .. (see below)
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2149
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1677

In answer, yes, you can have lightning in a sandstorm.  Do some googling

[Raesanos]

...sandstorms can be accompanied by severe thunderstorms, in which case there may be a risk of lightning. If you hear thunder or see lightning, do not move to high ground.

http://popularmechanics.com/science/worst_case_scenario/2003/7/sandstorm/

Lightening is caused by the buildup of static charge in suspended particles.  Dust / water droplets / etc. all will do the trick for causing it.

As for rain, dew can collect due to temperature changes, which sounds like a pretty reasonable way for a desert ecosystem to work, since the dew would water the plants and the water would travel upward through the food chain from there.  Don't take this as official Staff-approved fact though, its just my personal speculation.

[Marauder Moe]

After having sifted through all the war in Iraq reports resulting from google searches, I have found that apparantly sandstorms can indeed produce lightning.  Learn something new every day.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Sandstorms can produce lightning.

Yes, I had also heard this. From the Discovery channel, I think. Go Discovery channel!

I've always been suprised there are not random lightning strikes during huge sandstorms on zalanthas I mean the amount of static electricity built up in them would be monstrous...hhhmm, maybe thats where obsidian really comes from.

Actually, I think it'd be more likely that glass would be created from lightning strikes. Small bits of natural glass do appear where lightning strikes sand; I've seen it. Hmm... could there be a 'forage glass' command in the future? And on failure you end up with a shard in your hand?  :shock:

No rain at all. EVER.

Heh, okay. I'll take your word for it. The reason I asked is because I saw rain mentioned in a (granted, fake) log on the old GDB. I think the line was 'sand or strain or want of rain' or something like that. It just got me thinking about the likelyhood of rain in Zalanthas.

This is a desert planet. The idea that rain even exist is laughable.

Deserts do rain, though rarely. But I won't nit-pick.

As for water source...It is feasible that there could be underground source of moisture that feeds the plants in the Northland.

I have a problem with this, as the idea of a Northland aquifer seems to the commonly accepted theory, IC and OOC. The thing is, that aquifer would -need- to be refilled, and most aquifers are refilled when rainwater intrudes into the ground, eventually trickling down into the subteranean lake.

Also, even just a little bit of moisture in the air or ground would be enough to keep the plants alive. Remember, this environment has had thousands of years to adapt (in a hurry) to the desert climate and survive efficiently on just a few drops of water.

The simplest explanation would be, there are chemicals IRL that can pull moisture from the air (don't ask me names or how they work) The plants on zalanthas use chemicals of that nature.

These explanations make perfect sense to me; Zalanthan plants have evolved to gain moisture directly from the air, and use that moisture as sparingly as possible. That sounds like a fine explanation to me. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks guys.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Silicon (sand) is a semi-conductor, after all.    

All you really need for lightning is some ionization, which happens as a natural result of light hitting air molecules, and a conductor/semi-conductor/capacitor to hold the charge.

[RideTheDivide]

One thing with all of this "Moisture in the air" stuff.  Remember the water cycle?  For moisture to go into the air, it has to evaporate from somewhere.  In the case of Earth that's the ocean.  

So if this is how it works in Zalanthas - and Krath only knows if it does or not - then there must be some bodies of water somewhere...

[X-D]

5DMWH

Actually, I think it'd be more likely that glass would be created from lightning strikes. Small bits of natural glass do appear where lightning strikes sand; I've seen it. Hmm... could there be a 'forage glass' command in the future? And on failure you end up with a shard in your hand?  

Obsidian is known as volcanic glass.

http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/mineralo/obsidian/obsidian.htm

Interesting page to check out, Doing some research I found that the hardness of obsidian is rather low, far below quartz and flint.

Lightning strikes into sand form little glass pipes, the hardness and amount depends on the impurities and the strength of the bolt.

Assuming the sands of zalanthus does have iron oxide in it, A uber zalanthian sandstorm lightning bolt would produce a product much like obsidian and probobly the people of zalanthas would not be able to tell the difference.

[Stroker]

Before reading the rest of the posts on the thread, I decided to bring up this question .... how does moisture get into the air to begin with? Having lived in a place far from a large body of water and close to a body of water (make that large body of water) I can safely say that the moisture in the air occurs for that reason alone in these two separate places ... but is that always the case? I always figured zalanthas to be a very dry planet, and thus no humidity. Also, humidity in the air would also be caused by a rainfall, and since there are none on Zalanthas, that rules that out as well. So we are left with this - perhaps, if there is moisture in the air, could there be a massive ocean of some sort surrounding the Known World? Nah.

[John]

I was wondering, would the average citizen know what 'rain' is on Zalanthas?

I imagine your average one wouldn't. But bards would know about the children's tale of rain (certain common NPC told me)

[Angela Christine]

I always figured zalanthas to be a very dry planet, and thus no humidity. Also, humidity in the air would also be caused by a rainfall, and since there are none on Zalanthas, that rules that out as well. So we are left with this - perhaps, if there is moisture in the air, could there be a massive ocean of some sort surrounding the Known World? Nah.

Well, there can't be -no- humidity.  Humidity of 0% wouldn't support life, your eyes and mucus membranes would dry instantly.  I'm not sure if 0% humidity is even possible, when you have oxygen in hydrogen in the atmosphere wouldn't a certain amount form H2O naturally?

However, it is plausible that there are larger bodies of water outside the known world.  If the day is longer than the night then perhaps the axis of rotation and orbit of Zalanthas is quirky, and the part of the planet that is the Known world faces the sun more than half the time.  If so, that would mean that there were parts of the planet that faced the sun less than half the time.  The spot opposite the known world would have 2 hours of daylight and 5 hours of night, and would likely be considerably cooler than the known world, perhaps even arctic.  Between the frozen zone and the heat-blasted zone is . . . who knows.  Could be Club Dragon, the premier resort destination on Zalanthas.

AC

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Also, humidity in the air would also be caused by a rainfall, and since there are none on Zalanthas, that rules that out as well.

I think you mean humidity in the air suggests rainfall is coming soon... How rain happens is a large amount of warm, humid air is just sitting there, until a cold front comes by, and acts like a wedge, forcing the humid air upwards. As the humid air rises up, it cools, the water vapor turns to liquid, blah blah blah, and you get rain. Rain doesn't cause humid conditions; humid conditions cause rain.

I figure that Zalanthan air would be dry, (very) but there would be enough moisture to keep Zalanthas' piddling little water cycle going. Spit, sweat, and urine evaporate, adding moisture to the air, even if just a tiny bit. I'm sure those naughty elementists play a role... Maybe a Rukkian summons forth a tremor that busts open a hidden aquifer, allowing it to evaporate into the air? And those Vivaduans, they're always pumping more magickally-created water into the air, I'm sure. Although you do raise a good point, I must admit... Maybe humid gusts blow in from areas outside the Known World? Who the heck knows; maybe if you go far enough north you'll find a glacier, or something crazy like that.

Obsidian is known as volcanic glass.

Yes, it is called that, but I think only because it has glass-like properties. The fact is glass and obsidian are created very differently... Glass is sand that has undergone extreme heat, while obsidian is an extrusive igneous rock. This means that obsidian used to be lava that reached the surface, and cooled very quickly.

Which is actually fairly interesting, and raises some questions in and of itself... Mainly, the fact that obsidian is an extrusive rock, and yet people need to 'mine' for it underground. My theory is that Zalanthas was, espicially in the south, very active geologically. A stream of magma flowed to the surface. Soon after it arrived, a high-speed sandstorm then picked up. The fast-moving winds allowed more water to be evaporated from the lava, and at a much faster rate. (I'm assuming lava has at least some sort of moisture, at least for the sake of my theory... Steam comes of it, right?). The evaporation cooled the lava quickly, allowing it to harden into obsidian (if it had cooled slowly, it would have formed a different type of igneous rock. This is because a slow cool would allow time for larger-sized crystals to form. The small grain size of obsidian is what gives it it's smooth, 'glassy' properties). Soon afterwards, this same sandstorm, and probably many sandstorms afterwards, burried the vein of obsidian beneath an admirable amount of sand, thus creating the need to dig underground to mine it.

And I thought that up on only a 9th grade ejumacashun!   :wink:

Anyways, I could see water being moved into the air by several different means; possible aquifers being exposed and quickled evaporated, possibly gusts of humid air moving in from areas outside the Known World, volcanic activity releasing steam into the air, and the occasional rogue elementist making changes to the eviroment. This moisture would then be recycled constantly through the sweat, urine, and corpses of living things. A satisfactory theory, at least for me.

[Rindan]

I actually thought about how exact opposite side of the world would likely find themselves having more night then day.  There might a place where instead of endless desert, you have endless ice field and frozen peaks.  Imagine a world similar to Known World.  Just as barren and lifeless, only instead of being too cold, it would be too hot.  Such a place would have a lot of the same problems as Known World.  I imagine that wood would be very hard to come by.  Without wood, you have no fire.  Without fire, you have no water, as using your body to melt ice into water is a very bad idea.  A sure way to kill yourself is to eat ice and snow.  It could be a damned cool place.  Everyone wears massive thick coats of animal fur.  Wood and heat is as important as water and shade is to the Known World.  The Sea of Silt equivilent is a place with massive amounts of very fluffy snow where you simply sink in.  Snowstorms replace sand storms.  Massive hairy mammals replace massive reptiles and insects.   Rain would be just as much the stuff of legend as it is in the Known World.  Open bodies of water might exist, but they would mean nothing but death, as they would have to be terribly salty in order to keep from freezing.  The world itself would be a dark place.  Daylight would be rare, and everyone would be used to operating at night.

If one day the unthinkable happens and Armageddon goes down, I call dibs on the Known Worlds equally evil twin, a dark ice world.

[John]

I see the desert as a completely unnatural phenomenon actually. After all before the Dragon came legend says Allanak was surrounded by trees and as we all OOCly know, the Salt Flats was most likely a vast ocean. So what happened? Defilers. Completely destroyed the Known World. Now over time it would have EVENTUALLY rain would have returned, but there are at least 3 defilers CONSTANTLY at work named the Sand Lord, Muk Utep and Tektolnes. Thanks to them and all the other defilers, the world is still constantly struggling.

That's how I've always seen it anyway

[Tlaloc]

Actually, I think it'd be more likely that glass would be created from lightning strikes. Small bits of natural glass do appear where lightning strikes sand; I've seen it. Hmm... could there be a 'forage glass' command in the future? And on failure you end up with a shard in your hand?

Yeah, 'Fulgurite' is formed when lightning strikes soil or sand. Foraging for glass would be possible, I think, but unfortunately, I'm not certain fulgerite is really useable for anything, other than looking kind of neat. However, it might be something thats added in the future, though everything I've read about the mineral says its incredibly fragile - personally, I'd love to see something where Krathi who cast in the desert create glass in the sands around them . Heres a few links about it:

http://www.menzelphoto.com/gallery/big/lightning6.htm

http://www.mountwashington.org/notebook/transcripts/1999/03/22.html

-Tlaloc

[Anarchy]

I think the water cycle does exist, but due to the heat, the rain never makes it to the ground. As for how does the water get into the cycle without a mass of water?

I would assume, it's biggest source is that there is water under the salt flats east of Allanak, as the water rises, it draws salt up with it, hence the extreme heat and salt.

Now moving onto therory number 1243556.6 -  The  mines are infact
mining the dried molten lava (Obsidian, basalt) from the side of a extinct volcano.  Moving away from all this Magic - the silt sea is in fact volcanic ash with semi-dried lava at the bottom - leading me to think that we are infact sitting in a canyon of a dried ocean. - This is the only way i can explain it without using some Magicker excuse , i dont like them i find it hard to sollow that they would destroy everything around them so they could rule...waste... - But then again, the top dog magickers are male anyway so that does explain a fair deal.  - Now the dragon confuses me a fair deal. Is it folk lore or was it real?  If it was real how can a creature like that exist, it acted like a virus it came, it sucked dry then left - a virus (serious one)  invades, then sucks until nothing is left killing the host and itself - Or is this dragon the one like the one in the movie "reign of fire"
It came, it kicked some ass, it raped the land, then went off to get some sleep waiting untill the land heals its wounds...

Ok, i have gone off topic, so i will stop, forgive the rambling of a newbie .

- Anarchy.

[Stroker]

Alright, so there is always some humidity, but I think that the Known World would still be very dry, unless, like I said, surrounded by a massive body of water. Perhaps the known world is located at the equater of the planet, and that is why it is so hot. Then the farther you go north, the cooler it would get, or south for that matter. Oh and aren't Tek and Muk war mages (not really sure about the sand lord)? Wouldn't that be a little different than a defiler? But if it is the same, then that could explain why the north is more or less hospitable to life than the south. Perhaps Muk does not draw the energy from the land, while Tek does? Thus, the south is a wasteland, and the north is happy bunny land.

[Aranel]

You know it rained so rarely in egypt that the ancients beleived that thunderstorms were the gods geb and nutt making love....As for the idea that perhappes a Volcano is what ruined the world I doubt it as volcanos normally lower the temp. of the world even big ones like the "super volcanos" there always taking about on the discovery channle as of late. The ash from that one lowered the temp of earth by 5 degrees cel. which caused a mass extinction...in all actuallity if there are trees people eiether water them or it rains roots wouldnt go that deep for the underground river idea and if there were underground rivers that close to the surface the weight of the trees or any cities over them would cause the city or froest to sink.....In short I think we all just have to deal with the fact that this is a game not based in reality other wise there wouldnt be magic or monster.
   forgive any bad spelling on my part it very late at night here and im lucky im seeing straight

[Anarchy]

Well...regarding that sinking idea...
From what i have read, all of the land above
the shield wall is lower then the land below it
so, just maybe you are onto somthing there!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I will note something. The Known World is a scant fraction of the actual world. Why? The Imms have created something utterly realistic. Do you know that when it turns night in Allanak, it takes a few more RL minuted for it to turn dark in Tuluk? This means that they have taken into account the curvature of the world. The brief interlude between the two areas turning dark indicates that the world, in fact, is absolutely enourmous. The Known World is extremely small.

Since this is the case, I do think that it rains somewhere in the Unknown World. If it rains -anywhere- in the Unknown world, that water will find its way towards the Known World. You may or may not know what I am talking about when I say this, but there IS water on Zalanthias, and in abundance. You just generally will not live to see it.

There are places in the game where one can note the manner in which water might circulate throughout the Known World. This water comes from somewhere. You maay be sure then, that there is rain somewhere on the Unknown World.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Well...regarding that sinking idea...
From what i have read, all of the land above
the shield wall is lower then the land below it
so, just maybe you are onto somthing there!

Because I read this and it hurts my head, I will replace certain words with the correct ones:

From what i have read, all of the land North Of
the shield wall is lower then the land South Of it

On a side note, I often have my characters make references to "Up in 'Nak" and "Down in Tuluk" because of physical elevation.  It's very much the way it is in Egypt in that the elevation decreases the furthe North you go.

[Anonymous]

Nice touch, Salarr, but since its not the way I work in real life, its not the way I work in the game.

For me up is north and down is south, regardless of elevation.

[jstorrie]

The water comes from hydrogen and oxygen gas in Zalanthas' subterranean depths. The reaction is hot, which is why Zalanthas is so hot.

I win the game!

[Ghost]

Doh!  What if hydrogen is just burning down with oxygen and that is why the planet is hot?