Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[Dalmeth]

or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)

To be fair, yes, PCs are faster than most animals that could kill them instantly.  However, only a handful of mounts, which most PCs use, are as fast or faster than the player, and those mounts tend to be expensive or rare.

Though it is worth noting that one of the fastest mounts is also one of the most common.

[Nyr]

it may not work like this at all

It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved.  Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.

The second issue is what someone else said about needing a clearer echo that the attack is because of fleeing. As it is now, it's just another swing.

We could make an echo for that.  It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening because you fled head over heels.

The third issue I have is that none of the guilds which have flee mention them doing so in the help files, and as such, I can only think of one guild which I know for a fact has flee. Subguilds do, but not actual guilds.

That's something we can look at.

The fourth issue I have might not be an issue at all, but #3 makes it seem like one. However, because I only know of one guild (maybe two) with flee it seems like this is going to make the guilds which are strongest in combat stronger, and the guilds which are the weakest in combat weaker. It seems like flee should be a general skill, like shield use or dual wield or two-handed, and guilds or subguilds should increase the cap to the point where it actually becomes reliable.

Much like ride and direction sense, if it is important to your character to be able to flee without the possibility of an extra attack of opportunity at your fleeing, picking a subguild or guild with an aptitude for it would be preferable.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill.  There is no guarantee that the attack will land.  There are other factors involved governing that.  Yes, now some combat guilds and subguilds have an advantage that they did not have before.  We do not feel that this is an unreasonable advantage.

[Bacon]

We could make an echo for that.  It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening because you fled head over heels.

Yeah, I was just thinking it would "paint the picture" of what is going on more clearly with an additional echo fit in there.

[Nyr]

or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)

To be fair, yes, PCs are faster than most animals that could kill them instantly.  However, only a handful of mounts, which most PCs use, are as fast or faster than the player, and those mounts tend to be expensive or rare.

Though it is worth noting that one of the fastest mounts is also one of the most common.

Right.  That doesn't point to there being a problem with NPCs not having movement delay prior to attacking, though.  So far, I've yet to duplicate a single scenario mentioned, after multiple tests.  I will continue to try and find one, but so far people are reporting that this is intermittent, only happened once or twice with them, etc.--yet all scenarios are different, with different NPCs, NPC groups, and programs involved.  Even with that accounted for in testing, I am still unable to duplicate, which leads me to point towards connections, movement delay on the part of the PC, and player perception.  Even I was affected by the last bit during testing.  I had to use a timer to be sure that the delay was comparable; I was sure that I'd found something but it was approximately the same amount of delay.

[Celest]

It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved.  Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.

I knew that it was a free attack, so I should have used that word instead, but what I meant was that the free attack seemed to come regardless of their attack speed or weapon. That is, if a big half giant or slow dwarf attacks you with a huge 2h weapon, and you flee .1 seconds later, then he gets another free attack (but not a free, guaranteed hit) even though he had just swung. I just want to clarify that it was the instant attack after a prior one should not be happening? If so, then I guess my biggest concern is put to rest

We could make an echo for that.  It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening because you fled head over heels.

For the flee-er, it's very easy to miss that when you flee because you're given a whole new room's desc, but you are right that it is possible to tell at the moment. It would also just be nicer for the sake of future clarification, because I'm sure that new players or returning players in a few months may not pick up on that if they're unaware of the change.

[Dalmeth]

Right.  That doesn't point to there being a problem with NPCs not having movement delay prior to attacking, though.  So far, I've yet to duplicate a single scenario mentioned, after multiple tests.  I will continue to try and find one, but so far people are reporting that this is intermittent, only happened once or twice with them, etc.--yet all scenarios are different, with different NPCs, NPC groups, and programs involved.  Even with that accounted for in testing, I am still unable to duplicate, which leads me to point towards connections, movement delay on the part of the PC, and player perception.  Even I was affected by the last bit during testing.  I had to use a timer to be sure that the delay was comparable; I was sure that I'd found something but it was approximately the same amount of delay.

Yeah, that was me digressing back to a previous point. 

Anyway, the greatest benefit from this discussion is a few people might report if they see it, and if they don't, maybe it was fixed a long time ago.

[Morgenes]

It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved.  Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.

I knew that it was a free attack, so I should have used that word instead, but what I meant was that the free attack seemed to come regardless of their attack speed or weapon. That is, if a big half giant or slow dwarf attacks you with a huge 2h weapon, and you flee .1 seconds later, then he gets another free attack (but not a free, guaranteed hit) even though he had just swung. I just want to clarify that it was the instant attack after a prior one should not be happening? If so, then I guess my biggest concern is put to rest

Think of it this way, when you're fighting, part of the delay between swings is waiting for the right opportunity to swing, both from an agility standpoint and skill standpoint.  When someone turns around and flees, they are dropping their guard (unless they have the flee skill) to run away, giving their attackers an opening to make an attack.

This is exactly the same as the attack that is given if you try and pick something up in the middle of combat.  You gave them an opening, and they have a chance to take advantage of it.  In this case the flee skill represents your training in minimizing that exposure.

Note though, that more is taken into account than just the flee skill, as Nyr has stated and I have as well.  If you think about it, it would make sense that it's easier to get away from those giants that are so slow, wouldn't it?  I know you aren't going to go try it and see, but maybe have a little faith on this point.  We handled that.

[Morgenes]

Rather than edit, I'll double post.

Next reboot we will have a message that is given when this happens, for those of you setting up triggers at home it will read:

<attacker> seizes the opening and attacks <victim>.

The one you're gonna want to highlight is 'seizes the opening and attacks you.'

[Desertman]

Its basically the same rules that govern the same mechanic in D&D 3.5.

I like it there, I like it here.



Will shady-types get a special skill (see feat) that allows them to withdraw and pass combatants without provoking an attack of opportunity? (I joke, I joke.)

[Morgenes]

Its basically the same rules that govern the same mechanic in D&D 3.5.

I like it there, I like it here.



Will shady-types get a special skill (see feat) that allows them to withdraw and pass combatants without provoking an attack of opportunity? (I joke, I joke.)

If they pick a subguild with flee, mostly.

[Dar]

At the risk of getting pelted by many tiny pebbles.

Lots of people say Celves are codedly underpowered. Perhaps ... add flee to their racial skill?

[Nyr]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and
have adapted to live by their flee skill. True to the nature of elves they also
live by their ability to flee, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens
of other races because they can flee from them. Some city elves are members
of tribes fleeing about hither and yon in some run-down space within its walls;
others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all where they may flee and
not be nearly as codedly underpowered as claimed.

[Dar]

Right-o!

On a more serious note. The addition does not truly go against the Celven theme and only reinforces their status of an underdog. Elves are underdogs within the city, and underdogs 'do' survive on their ability to flee, amongst other things.

[Bacon]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and
have adapted to live by their flee skill. True to the nature of elves they also
live by their ability to flee, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens
of other races because they can flee from them. Some city elves are members
of tribes fleeing about hither and yon in some run-down space within its walls;
others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all where they may flee and
not be nearly as codedly underpowered as claimed.

Lol, oh crap. I think I hurt something.

[Yam]

I thought that was the actual helpfile for a good minute.

[Armaddict]

Warriors generally exist with some sort of basis of honor, usually with some
inclusion of the ability to smackdown those who try to flee who don't know how
to run correctly.  Warriors generally laugh hysterically at those 'siderunners' who try to run
sideways, and therefore, take arrows to the knee and maces to the face.  Those fucking
noobs at life haven't learned to run yet.

I can does it too?

[Nyr]

Right-o!

On a more serious note. The addition does not truly go against the Celven theme and only reinforces their status of an underdog. Elves are underdogs within the city, and underdogs 'do' survive on their ability to flee, amongst other things.

I was just poking fun at it, but I dunno that they need any particular racial ability to do so.

[Case]

Is there a possible 'insta attack' scenario where a number of factors come together like so to create the appearance of an insta attack:

1. Mobile enters room and receives an attack delay that will expire close to the next scheduling check. I don't know how long these are. Let's say 1 second.
2. MUD handles other AI processes or commands and eventually gets around to sending data to players.
3. MUD transmits data to player. Let's say it takes 150ms to send and be received (could be twice that given my location).
4. Human reaction to the mobile entering. Eat up 200ms or so, possibly longer.
5. Data returns to MUD. Another 150ms. MUD has to get around to receiving player input. It could be in any state, including just having finished handling player input.
6. MUD expires attack delay.
7. MUD induces NPC to attack.
8. Player command attempted.

It depends on game flow execution and network latency. Is this a possible cause for these alleged insta attacks?

[Bogre]

To Delirium's post, this will help with the skilling up of flee as well.  For the record, a request indicating that flee was hard to train up is what brought this to our attention, and so we are changing things to help.

Bahahaha. Armageddon Imms <3.

Oh, you want to skill up, do you? Here, let me help.

I think this could be neat, it'll make the game harsher, though I'm worried crim-code instadeath will occur more frequently as well.

[Dar]

It's almost impossible to train up poison tolerance.


Solution:

A) Make atmosphere toxic.
B) Actually code up poison tolerance.

Result:

Survivors trained up their poison tolerance successfully.

[AreteX]

I've read about five pages of the responses so far and I must I hear alot of "I dont want my character to die." responses.

If you're out alone in the sands and you come across Big Nasty A which kills you in TWO hits, but usually not ONE... don't you think its realistic you should just die anyway?  There are no "injuries" in this game persay, but when you get hit for HORRENDOUS damage upon your leg and you RUN AWAY from a Mek.....?  Or an arm?  Or your wrist?

I think you see what I am getting at... you would of been fucked anyway, dead most likely, alone in the desert with a gaping wound in your body being tracked by some crazed animal.

I see a point when it comes to packs of NPC's that might all get to land a swing upon you, but when it comes to situations like that I think you might also die anyway.  These arent NPC's that group up as a group of five and simply come at you from one direction.  You should really picture a pack of Hyenas', working as a team to take down their prey, you know?  They don't come at you from the front and you turn around and run, they're ALL AROUND YOU.  They came after you from different directions, they surrounded you and nipped at your heels and back, they tried to bite your neck but you managed to run, for a moment, but suddenly there were more in the direction you ran, as you run by, whap whap a few more bites.

I think the change is fine really because I think half the times people get away from a fight they probably would of died from the wounds anyway(at least the fights you claim one extra hit will end you).

As for the PVP Aspect of it all, I really think it could be TRULY deadly in the hands of HIGHLY skilled players versus ones that are just mediocre or bad.  I've almost been one-shotted before by big hammer wielding tough-guys and I can only imagine getting hit a second time as I run away.  But then again... my point above probably still applies.

[X-D]

If you're out alone in the sands and you come across Big Nasty A which kills you in TWO hits, but usually not ONE... don't you think its realistic you should just die anyway?  There are no "injuries" in this game persay, but when you get hit for HORRENDOUS damage upon your leg and you RUN AWAY from a Mek.....?  Or an arm?  Or your wrist?

BUT...the damage is subjective...even if the message is not. Not all Horrendous is created equal and neither are all PCs.

That Horrendous could be 26 damage or 126 damage...If your PC has 125 or more HP, then I doubt very much if 26 damage is considered a huge gaping wound.

As to the change itself, I still have no experience with it but I still hope more is added as a bonus to having a high flee skill...should you live long enough to have it high.

[Synthesis]

On the other hand, IRL, giant things that could kill you in one bite don't magickally teleport from a league away across the salt flats and start nomming your face.

[AreteX]

If you have 125+HP and you get hit for "horrendous" 26 damage then you're probably not worried about another 26 damage hit when you flee.

I was more addressing people who consider being hit once fine, but being hit twice is going to kill them.  If thats the case, regardless of your HP totals, then you probably shouldnt be in that situation anyway.

[Dar]

that is my point as well. If you start comparing it to RL, you gotta all sorts of things.

A mek will not be able to sneak up on you only because it's to NW of you, instead of north of you.