Author Topic: American Political Thread  (Read 155425 times)

FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2425 on: August 13, 2012, 01:50:43 PM »
ARE there states where you can apply for and receive government aide without a government issued photo ID? (serious question, I don't know.)
I know it is required in Mississippi, and I am pretty sure we are pretty close to the bottom of per capita income scale (but highest on per capita donations to charity, for the record).
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Marauder Moe

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2426 on: August 13, 2012, 01:51:41 PM »
It's about as reasonable as the government giving away free shark repellant or lightning rods, though.

All those problems occur at a comparable frequency.

FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2427 on: August 13, 2012, 01:57:30 PM »
Yeah the goverment "wastes" money on things all the time.
But I have problems accepting offering the poor something that will make their life easier and help catch up with the rest of the world as wasting money.
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Schrodingers Cat

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2428 on: August 13, 2012, 01:57:58 PM »
It's about as reasonable as the government giving away free shark repellant or lightning rods, though.

All those problems occur at a comparable frequency.

Yeah but if sharks and lightning had some effect on people's rights to vote, you know people would be completely against them.

FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2429 on: August 13, 2012, 01:59:02 PM »
It's about as reasonable as the government giving away free shark repellant or lightning rods, though.

All those problems occur at a comparable frequency.

Yeah but if sharks and lightning had some effect on people's rights to vote, you know people would be completely against them.


Hahaha, sad but true.

Point: politicians would rather spend their effort/money toward making the otherside look bad than helping the people they say the other side is trying to hurt.
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Marauder Moe

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2430 on: August 13, 2012, 02:00:29 PM »
FW, the thing you seem to have trouble accepting is that individual voter fraud is, for all practical purposes, a non-existant problem in this country.

If indeed you really want to help the poor, vote democratic.

jstorrie

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2431 on: August 13, 2012, 02:01:29 PM »
But I have problems accepting offering the poor something that will make their life easier and help catch up with the rest of the world as wasting money.

Our problem is not with the general idea of providing ID to people.

Our problem is that you seem to be bringing this up as some sort of counter-argument in favor of voter ID laws.

lordcooper

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2432 on: August 13, 2012, 02:11:42 PM »
Free ID: good, but very expensive
Requiring specific forms of photographic ID to vote: very very bad

These things are separate issues.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2433 on: August 13, 2012, 02:12:59 PM »
You are ignoring the fact that those "specific forms of ID" are the ones that are issued by the same government you are voting for and are claiming to be a part of when you vote, right?
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lordcooper

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2434 on: August 13, 2012, 02:16:42 PM »
I'm missing your point.

Disclaimer: I'd be in favour of free and universally issued ID but it seems you're using this to argue for unnecessary legislation on the the right to vote, rather than it's own merit.
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boog

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2435 on: August 13, 2012, 02:17:20 PM »
I don't have a valid state ID but still receive benefits, per se.

But you do need a birth certificate/social security card.
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flurry

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2436 on: August 13, 2012, 02:18:05 PM »


Maybe they just don't want to restrict people from voting.

But I think you underestimate just how much money it would cost to get new ID cards out to every citizen in the state. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars, here, per state. At a time when practically half of the state budgets are close to bankruptcy, and at a time when vote fraud is not a significant problem. I think maybe Democrats aren't pushing FREE ID CARDS FOR EVERYONE because it would cost a fucking ton of money and solve no problems.

How will giving them IDs restrict people from voting?

You mean new state IDs to people who can not afford it and are already on government assistance that costs WAY more than 25 bucks every four years?

That's not me you're quoting there, btw.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2437 on: August 13, 2012, 02:24:19 PM »
Let me rephrase, LC. That was pretty vague.

You said "specific form of ID" like it is some obscure, hard to reach thing when in fact, it is identification issued by the SAME Government that you are being a part of when you go to the ballot box.
It's easier to verify than a possibly stolen (or even printing out)  birth certificate, social security card, or utility bill taken form someone's coutnertop, mailbox or email.


It is both hard to fake and has a picture of the citizen on it.

That is the point of wanting to require government issued photo IDs.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2438 on: August 13, 2012, 02:27:34 PM »
***messed up a quote I was trying to fix.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 02:30:49 PM by FantasyWriter »
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FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2439 on: August 13, 2012, 02:29:28 PM »
Crap, quote-fail day, apparently.
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lordcooper

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2440 on: August 13, 2012, 02:34:49 PM »
I've never actually seen any US ID, but I'm assuming you're proposing a card somewhat akin to a drivers license, with all the holograms and shit?

I'n the UK it costs 50 to get yourself a provisional drivers licence.  Seeing that it's pretty easy to find a fake one for around 30 (I was under 18 once :P), I really doubt they're all that hard to forge.  But yes, they do have pictures on them.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 02:40:04 PM by lordcooper »
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Marauder Moe

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2441 on: August 13, 2012, 02:38:09 PM »
Dude, we get it.  You think IDs will stop voter fraud.  Maybe they will... but we're talking about maybe preventing a few of the mere dozens of individual cases per year in the whole country.  Also, most of those are just accidents or people not knowing they were inelligible rather than willfully attempting to undermine the system (with their mighty single vote...  ::) ).

While you may be nicer and more generous than most conservatives, a great many of the rest of them are using the myth of voter fraud as a means to prevent certain demographics from voting (poor people, minorities, college students), demographics which tend to vote democratic.  Regardless of your personal intentions/beliefs, this thought experiment, if accepted, legitimizes that standpoint.

Cutthroat

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2442 on: August 13, 2012, 02:39:47 PM »
The problem with requiring ID to vote currently is that it would take a whole host of systemic changes in order to ensure nothing gets interpreted as a poll tax or suppression. That means:

- Getting the ID would have to be free.
- Getting the things you need to prove your identity in order to get the ID have to be free (things like a birth certificate are often not free).
- There has to be a free way to apply for the ID. Postage provided by the state for a mail-in ID application is pretty much the only way, since Republican states currently enjoy tactics like closing DMVs in Democratic districts or keeping them open during odd hours, making them hard to access for people with 9-to-5 jobs.
- The ID process has to be reasonably quick. No waiting until after Election day for an ID you applied for in September.

Considering all that, and all the work and changes that would need to take place, as well as all the funding that would be needed, it makes sense to stick to a system that works with extremely negligible voter fraud (the current one).

If you really want to fix the election system, you should consider the election fraud perpetrated by vote-counters and certain politicians.

FantasyWriter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2443 on: August 13, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »
Quote
Names of deceased on registration lists

When the Poughkeepsie Journal in New York did a 2006 analysis of how names of deceased people were still on New York's official list of registered voters, it conducted the assessment by matching "the names, dates of birth and ZIP codes of all listed voters in New York's database of 11.7 million voter registration records against the same information in the Social Security Administration's 'Death Master File,' a database of 77 million records of deaths dating to 1937." That study resulted in a final estimate of as many as 77,000 dead people on its rolls, and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave.[1]

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Dead_people_voting
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Karieith

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2444 on: August 13, 2012, 02:47:34 PM »
If indeed you really want to help the poor, vote democratic.

Voting democratic doesn't just help the poor, it also helps the middle and working class. It also protects my right to practice all aspects of my religion, which (their God forbid) is not Christian.

You guys, FW is distracting us from the issue here which is that right now, Voter Identification Laws Actually Suppress Votes.

Now, while identification being supplied for free to the poor might seem well and good in concept but it may cause more profiling. Isn't carrying ID on you all the time one of those spook stories drummed up to warn of a fascist regime or something?

Also,
It's a stupid and expensive position which feigns to legitimize voter ID laws. No.

Quote
Names of deceased on registration lists

When the Poughkeepsie Journal in New York did a 2006 analysis of how names of deceased people were still on New York's official list of registered voters, it conducted the assessment by matching "the names, dates of birth and ZIP codes of all listed voters in New York's database of 11.7 million voter registration records against the same information in the Social Security Administration's 'Death Master File,' a database of 77 million records of deaths dating to 1937." That study resulted in a final estimate of as many as 77,000 dead people on its rolls, and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave.[1]

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Dead_people_voting

Bet we wouldn't have even noticed if they voted Republican. :allears:

Edit: Oh, those emotes don't work here. :smith:

jstorrie

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2445 on: August 13, 2012, 02:49:42 PM »
Okay, now, do you think those dead people rose up and voted? And that we could have prevented this by checking their IDs?

More seriously: those false votes are not being entered because people are showing up at polling stations and voting in place of dead people. Those votes come from straight-up ballot-box-stuffing. ID cards are completely irrelevant to those statistics. Why did you post them?

jstorrie

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2446 on: August 13, 2012, 02:51:59 PM »
It seems that most of the systemic fraud that people do allege is related to absentee ballots and to ballot stuffing, neither of which would seem to be impacted by an ID requirement.

Reposted for emphasis.

Marauder Moe

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2447 on: August 13, 2012, 03:00:45 PM »
Quote
Names of deceased on registration lists

When the Poughkeepsie Journal in New York did a 2006 analysis of how names of deceased people were still on New York's official list of registered voters, it conducted the assessment by matching "the names, dates of birth and ZIP codes of all listed voters in New York's database of 11.7 million voter registration records against the same information in the Social Security Administration's 'Death Master File,' a database of 77 million records of deaths dating to 1937." That study resulted in a final estimate of as many as 77,000 dead people on its rolls, and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave.[1]

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Dead_people_voting

The source article for that paragraph doesn't conclude that this is evidence of rampant willful fraud, but rather it attributes it to clerical errors.

jstorrie

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2448 on: August 13, 2012, 03:09:15 PM »
Well, maybe if we blew a few hundred mil on fancy ID cards those pencil-pushers would check their numbers! Because of reasons.

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #2449 on: August 13, 2012, 06:21:13 PM »
Are we done hammering FW yet? I'm starting to feel a little bad for him.  :-\

Man, find some evidence that voter fraud is happening and ID's could have stopped it ... then we can have a talk about it. Yes. That statement is loaded because those of us that have looked, are already aware that the evidence isn't there, but you're not going to just believe us. And you shouldn't. You should go see for yourself.

Or is this going to be like the fraud conversation where we just eventually get to you not liking the "idea" of voter fraud and that's all you were really trying to say?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 06:35:52 PM by musashi »
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