Author Topic: American Political Thread  (Read 166200 times)

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2011, 10:58:28 PM »
Seeing that Darth Bader Ginsburg is getting older by the day, Id take any of he GOP (To bad a Classical Liberal/ Libertarian wont win).
 Funny how some want a living, breathing constitution that grows in meaning, until a corporations becomes more a person than the unborn. 

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say  ???
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muddy

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2011, 12:29:12 PM »
Well the problem with the Left and the Right, are those who push the "boot-heel of collectivism" type laws. Some pass laws not allowing toys in happy meals, others push for a war on drugs. Many in the G.O.P. say at least they want Judges that look to the authorial intent and don't read between the lines. Darth Bader Ginsburg is one of the classic "Its a Living document" type, making the  constitution a wax nose, for whoever has power to shape (see Roe v Wade with one type in charge and the personhood of corporations with an other) .

Synthesis

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2011, 12:41:52 PM »
This just in:  people who appoint judges appoint judges who tend to agree with them.

More with Ric Romero at 11.
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2011, 05:09:08 PM »
I always figured the entire point of the Supreme Court was to interpret the constitution as it pertains to the modern day, since the Founding Fathers probably didn't have a clue about things like global corporations, advances in prenatal studies, and genetics, just to name a few.

Seems like just having a Supreme Court to begin with means we're already admitting the constitution is a "living document" that needs to be interpreted.  :-\
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jcarter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2011, 07:08:25 PM »
It's so late in the game that Republicans have shot themselves in the foot. I don't get why they even bother considering Obama's doing their job for them, but whatever.

Seems like just having a Supreme Court to begin with means we're already admitting the constitution is a "living document" that needs to be interpreted.  :-\

That's not what 'Living Constitution' means.

muddy

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2011, 07:47:32 PM »
I always figured the entire point of the Supreme Court was to interpret the constitution as it pertains to the modern day, since the Founding Fathers probably didn't have a clue about things like global corporations, advances in prenatal studies, and genetics, just to name a few.

Seems like just having a Supreme Court to begin with means we're already admitting the constitution is a "living document" that needs to be interpreted.  :-\


No, the Constitution can be amended and legislation can be passed to deal with things that the founding fathers did not address.  Now with advancements in science and our understanding, Judges can change precedent. Say that embryology can now show the unborn to be whole and complete beings with unique DNA, distinct from the mothers and showing it to possess that which ties us all together as humans. Corporations on the other hand, do not.

Synthesis

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2011, 07:54:54 PM »
Wellp, that's it.  Ethicality of abortion--problem solved.   ::)
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2011, 05:45:38 PM »
But given the power of legal precedent in our system of law, I think that in practice changing precedent and amending legislation ends up having an equivocal result; but that has to do with the system itself rather than the people wearing the black robes and pounding the gavels. And I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.

Seems like a good check and balance system to me. The court changes precedent on something and the country is out-raged ... so there's a push for legislative change to overturn that precedent. Or, Congress passes some unconscionable legislation, it gets challenged and the court can declare it unconstitutional. Spin, parry, dodge, and on the dance goes.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 06:02:26 PM by musashi »
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Morrolan

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2011, 06:49:29 PM »
since the Founding Fathers probably didn't have a clue about things like global corporations

The advent of global corporations is the latest version of chartered companies, which existed well before the founding fathers.  The founding fathers could not help but be aware of them. The Virginia Company (chartered in 1606) was one.  Charter companies had rights, granted by heads of states.

Back then, however, states (countries) were willing and able to use their authority to disband charter corporations that acted beyond their charter.  It wasn't until 1819 (in the U.S.--decision by the Supreme Court) that companies were rendered "inviolable," meaning they could not simply be disbanded by the state.

From Wikipedia, but agreeing with my other research:

Quote from: Wikipedia
By the beginning of the 19th century, government policy on both sides of the Atlantic began to change, reflecting the growing popularity of the proposition that corporations were riding the economic wave of the future. In 1819, the U. S. Supreme Court granted corporations a plethora of rights they had not previously recognized or enjoyed. Corporate charters were deemed "inviolable", and not subject to arbitrary amendment or abolition by state governments. The Corporation as a whole was labeled an "artificial person, " possessing both individuality and immortality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation#Mercantilism

Any trouble we have with corporations is not because of a constitution that couldn't imagine these problems, but because we (the West in general) opened a Pandora's box and don't like what we let out.

Let's face it, corporations are legally immortal. That alone makes them super-powered. States gave up the authority to have the power of "life" and "death" over them, granting them person-hood without the one major drawback that limits all humans.

(No, not a conscience.)

Death.

Whoops.
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Bacon

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 07:05:33 PM »
Quote
Any trouble we have with corporations is not because of a constitution that couldn't imagine these problems, but because we (the West in general) opened a Pandora's box and don't like what we let out.

Let's face it, corporations are legally immortal. That alone makes them super-powered. States gave up the authority to have the power of "life" and "death" over them, granting them person-hood without the one major drawback that limits all humans.

(No, not a conscience.)

Death.

That is an excellent point.
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2011, 10:09:30 PM »
Yes. Very good point. I stand corrected on the advent of global corporations.

My off the cuff examples were just meant to illustrate that the founding fathers did not mean for the constitution to be read like dogma. It was written with the expectation that times would change, and its interpretation would need to change in kind. At work at the moment so I don't have time to dig up quotes for you right now but more than one of the constitution's authors made that explicitly clear in their other writings.

Edit to add: Made it home. I meant explicitly clear in sentiments like this:

Quote from: Jefferson
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 07:11:52 AM by musashi »
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Aruven

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2011, 04:04:40 AM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.

Cutthroat

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2011, 08:32:53 AM »
Quote from: Jefferson
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."


brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2011, 10:52:43 AM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.

The broader Middle East has no problems with Israel that couldn't be resolved by sucking it up and dealing with them like a real neighbor.  I mean, heck, we did this with Canada after our Glorious Liberation of them in 1812 failed.  Israel's existence is the favorite folk grievance of the Arab Middle East (which has plenty of internal problems to be angry about), but we could nuke Tel Aviv tomorrow and the various Islamist movements would have ginned up a new Little Satan by Candlemass (probably each other).  Best to not indulge too avidly the crazy segments of someone else's society.

Let me make a false analogy, but one that folks around here will understand:  When are progressives going to get serious and throw homosexuals under the bus?  They're a small interest group whose cause is supported out of pure sentimentality; this support engenders (hehe) tremendous reflexive opposition from conservative segments of our culture.

(Say, there's a good thought: we'd get a lot more respect from the world's Islamic cultures if we took all the female skin off our television shows.  Anyone game?)
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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2011, 11:04:42 AM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.
Can you clarify this statement some?

Is he actually "anti-Israel" or is he simply an isolationist?

Should being labeled "anti-Israel" be a positive thing?

How about we assume we don't know what 'blowback' means and you explain it to us?


(Say, there's a good thought: we'd get a lot more respect from the world's Islamic cultures if we took all the female skin off our television shows.  Anyone game?)
No!  Hands off my boobies!

Wait... that came out wrong...

Aruven

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2011, 05:10:40 PM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.
Can you clarify this statement some?

Is he actually "anti-Israel" or is he simply an isolationist?

Should being labeled "anti-Israel" be a positive thing?

How about we assume we don't know what 'blowback' means and you explain it to us?


(Say, there's a good thought: we'd get a lot more respect from the world's Islamic cultures if we took all the female skin off our television shows.  Anyone game?)
No!  Hands off my boobies!

Wait... that came out wrong...

The republican jewish coalition banned ron paul from their sponsored debate though every other candidate was invited. They also did this in 2007, saying his views on israel are 'misguided and extreme'. * Ron Paul believes that Israel encouraged and started Hamas *  <------ Open to interpretation. I can say that he certainly believes that Israel encouraged and helped support Hamas to gain an edge over the PLO seculars. Even though Paul voted agaisnt the president, supporting Israel's right to defend itself when they bombed Iran's nuclear sight.

Blowback - is the espionage term for unintended consequences of a covert operation that are suffered by the civil population of the aggressor government *as quoted by wikipedia.
*Note this does not match the definition provided by dictionary.com

It's also been defined as the result of actions regarding foreign poilcies, supporting wikipedia's use of the word.

And I think non-intervention and isolation are two different things. I am willing to debate that too.

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2011, 08:08:26 PM »
I just find it endlessly amusing how the establishment pretends Ron Paul isn't there. When he was in third they would skip him and announce the first, second, and forth place candidates from the polls. When he was in second ... they did first, third, and forth. Now that he's leading Iowa ... they're like: If Romney can come in second it'll really help him going into CT.

I disagree with a lot of his positions, but I'll still vote GOP come election season if he's running against Obama. 
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2011, 08:24:47 PM »
Also to answer brytta's analogy: I would throw gays under the bus the moment they started "reclaiming" the real estate of anyone who was Christian across America, citing right of ownership from a book they made up a few centuries back that's already been proven to be historically baseless ... by their own gay scholars.

I'm not saying Isriel shouldn't exist, I'm just saying their government isn't exactly a blameless victim either.
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brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #68 on: December 23, 2011, 12:20:02 AM »
Also to answer brytta's analogy: I would throw gays under the bus the moment they started "reclaiming" the real estate of anyone who was Christian across America, citing right of ownership from a book they made up a few centuries back that's already been proven to be historically baseless ... by their own gay scholars.

Though the early Zionist movement doubtless found inspiration in the Hebrew scriptures, I'm not aware that Israel has generally expelled Arabs for other than security reasons.  Again, it's hard to know exactly what the situation would be if killing Jews wasn't so wildly popular amongst the Palestinian-administered population.  Ethnist guerrilla warfare--and outright, no-kidding terrorism--does indeed suck golf balls through garden hoses, especially for the innocents of both sides.

(In our bus-rolling analogy, a homosexual who tried to move into a "Christian neighborhood" would be murdered before sundown, and the killer celebrated in private schools across the fruited plain.)
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2011, 10:05:36 AM »
Though the early Zionist movement doubtless found inspiration in the Hebrew scriptures, I'm not aware that Israel has generally expelled Arabs for other than security reasons.

Settlements? That's what I was talking about.

"Hey guys! We're gonna build some settlements here on this land you've been living on ... but we're worried some of you might be terrorists, so all of you have to get on the other side of this big barrier wall we've built while we move into your houses. Thanks for your cooperation!"

... C'mon ... you'd be pissed off too.
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brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2011, 10:28:03 AM »
Settlements? That's what I was talking about.

"Hey guys! We're gonna build some settlements here on this land you've been living on ...

Let's make a distinction here: are settlements built on land seized from individuals (Palestinians' land), or on land seized from Palestinian political control (Palestinian land)?

... but we're worried some of you might be terrorists, so all of you have to get on the other side of this big barrier wall we've built while we move into your houses. Thanks for your cooperation!"

... C'mon ... you'd be pissed off too.

Totally; but you're sweeping too much under the rug with "we're worried..."  "We're worried some of you might be terrorists because our pizza parlors keep exploding and you keep claiming responsibility to much public acclaim."
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boog

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2011, 05:18:15 PM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.

I'd just like to say that most Americans are so pro-Israel, it's a little unnerving. It's the Christian base mostly, too -- at least from what I've seen in the south. Can you believe people wear Livestrong-like wristbands that say "Support Israel" and then, after I glance down, notice a Star of David on it, ask if they're Jewish, they say ... "No, but death to them Palestinian scum!"

Yeah. The above situation has happened quite a few times before to me. Anyway, it's just because most Christians are of the belief that that piece of land, as I'm sure you know, belongs to "God's chosen people", which ... doesn't include Palestinians.

I understand their notions and whatnot, but I also don't think God would approve of bombing and terrorizing the fuck out of one another over a piece of land. But, yeah. Anyway.

Ron Paul will probably never get the nom because of this (which is a bigger issue than most people will give credit to) and other reasons.
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Aruven

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2011, 09:13:37 PM »
Does anyone else find it irritating that Ron Paul is being labeled 'Anti-Israel' in a negative light? You'd think 'blowback' was a term American citizens would understand after 9/11.

I'd just like to say that most Americans are so pro-Israel, it's a little unnerving. It's the Christian base mostly, too -- at least from what I've seen in the south. Can you believe people wear Livestrong-like wristbands that say "Support Israel" and then, after I glance down, notice a Star of David on it, ask if they're Jewish, they say ... "No, but death to them Palestinian scum!"

Yeah. The above situation has happened quite a few times before to me. Anyway, it's just because most Christians are of the belief that that piece of land, as I'm sure you know, belongs to "God's chosen people", which ... doesn't include Palestinians.

I understand their notions and whatnot, but I also don't think God would approve of bombing and terrorizing the fuck out of one another over a piece of land. But, yeah. Anyway.

Ron Paul will probably never get the nom because of this (which is a bigger issue than most people will give credit to) and other reasons.

Separation of church and state anyone?

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2011, 09:44:36 PM »
Let's make a distinction here: are settlements built on land seized from individuals (Palestinians' land), or on land seized from Palestinian political control (Palestinian land)?

Isn't it both? I'm not sure how that distinction would be meaningful. I mean if you're asking: Have Palestinian individuals been kicked out of their homes to make way for Israeli settlements ... that would be a big a resounding yes. Many times. Was the land their home sat on previously under Palestinian political control before it was annexed by Israel? Yes to that too. In much the same way the land your house is sitting on right now is under American political control, and my house sits on land under Japanese political control.

Or did you mean something else?

Totally; but you're sweeping too much under the rug with "we're worried..."  "We're worried some of you might be terrorists because our pizza parlors keep exploding and you keep claiming responsibility to much public acclaim."

No I mean I get it man ... it's a vicious, vicious cycle and neither side is completely blameless and the whole thing really sucks for the honest folks on both sides who just want to be left alone to raise their kids and make some money.

The only reason I brought it up was to point out how it's not reaaaally a good analogy to the civil rights issue for homosexuals ... homosexuals aren't waging war back on conservatives. The hate is only going one way in that issue. So it's a lot easier to support them without reservation  ;)
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